§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,700,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for Additional Expenditure in respect of the following Army Services, viz:—
| Vote 1, Pay, &c, of the Army | £2,000,000 |
| Vote 6, Transport and Remounts | £2,100,000 |
| Vote 7, Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | £2,030,000 |
| Total | £6,130,000 |
| Excess Appropriations in Aid (Votes 1, 6, 7, 9, and 10). | £3,430,000 |
| £2,700,000 |
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid he understood an Amendment had been moved to reduce the Vote by £100,000.
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid in that case he should move the reduction of the Vote by £10,000 in respect of the item for Land and Inland Water Transport Abroad.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 6, Sub-head B (Land and Inland Water Transport Abroad), be reduced by £10,000."—(Mr. Charles Hobhouse.)
§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTstated that he had already said everything he could say in regard to this 1065 Vote. He had endeavoured to explain why it was necessary for the Government to bring forward a Supplementary Estimate.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)said he was emboldened by the result of the last
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 74; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 22.)
1065| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Russell |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brigg, John | Labonchere, Henry | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Roche, John |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Rose, Charles Day |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lundon, W. | Runciman, Walter |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Sheehy, David |
| Crombie, John William | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mooney, John J. | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Murphy, John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth South) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O' Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Dowd, John | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Mara, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Charles Hobhouse and Mr. Whitley. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Perks, Robert William |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pym, C. Guy |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Heath, A. Howard (Hanley) | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Bigwood, James | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Kerr, John | Smith, H. C (North'mbTyneside) |
| Bull, William James | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Spear, John Ward |
| Butcher, John George | Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks., N. R.) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stock, James Henry |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Stroyan, John |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tuff, Charles |
| Denny, Colonel | Macdona, John Cumming | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Milvain, Thomas | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Morrell, George Herbert | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Wylie, Alexander |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Nicholson, William Graham | |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Percy, Earl | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Forster, Henry William | Plummer, Walter R. | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Pretyman, Ernest George |
§ division and from a sense of duty to continue the examination of the Estimates now before the Committee. He hoped that on every possible occasion hon. 1067 Members would by their votes mark their protest against the recklessness and improvidence of the expenditure indicated by the present Estimates. He remembered when a Supplementary Estimate was a most unusual thing, but now almost every item of the original Estimates was exceeded. Why was such a large sum as £60,000 required for Sea Transport in time of peace? What was the charter price of the vessels, what was the number of men, and what was the quantity of material conveyed? The Financial Secretary to the War Office had admitted that he could not explain these things because he was new to the office he held. Child as the hon. Gentleman was in these matters, he hoped he would be able to give the Committee a satisfactory explanation why such a large sum was required in addition to the original Estimate. These excess charges were occurring in almost every branch of the service, and when Supplementary Estimates were presented the Government carried them by an automatic majority of Members who flocked in from the smoking room when the divisions were called. He moved to reduce the Vote by £10,000.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed. "That Item. Vote 6, Sub-head C (Sea Transport), be reduced by £10,000."—(Mr. Flynn.)
§ MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR (Liverpool, E. Toxteth)said he could not agree with the hon. Member that £60,000 was a large amount for Sea Transport, having regard to the conditions of sea transport. He could understand that this amount might be justified. At the same time he was willing to admit that sea transport was a subject that lent itself to an infinite variety of treatment. It would
§ have been very much better if the item had been more accurately described, and if the countries from which the transport was carried out had been specified on the Estimate. He asked the Financial Secretary to state from what portion of the British Empire the sea transport took place, because, unless the Committee got some particular information, it was evident that they might occupy the whole evening discussing the places from which sea transport might take place. Between what ports did the steamers sail, and at what prices were they chartered. He should like to lay considerable emphasis on that point. He wished especially to know at what rates the vessels were chartered seeing that the freight market was in a more or less depressed condition at the present moment. If no satisfactory information on these points was forthcoming, the words "Sea Transport" lent themselves to great prolixity.
§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid he was very glad to be able to satisfy his hon. friend. All the sea transport was from South Africa. The Supplementary Estimate became necessary because, as he had already explained, the moving home of a number of troops had been deferred to a later period than was originally intended.
§ MR. AUSTIN TAYLORCan my hon. friend give the rate per net or gross registered tonnage?
§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTI am sorry I cannot.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 85;. Noes, 114. (Division List No. 23.)
1069| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Crean, Eugene | Freeman-Thomas. Captain F. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Crombie, John William | Fuller, J. M. F. |
| Bell, Richard | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Gilhooly, James |
| Boland, John | Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Brigg, John | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Donelan, Captain A. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Doogan, P. C. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Fenwick, Charles | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Joyce. Michael |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Kilbride, Denis |
| Campbell- Bannerman, Sir H. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Labouchere, Henry |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | O' Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Sullivan. Donal |
| Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | O' Mara, James | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Perks, Robert William | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Lundon, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rea, Russell | Toulmin, George |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Reddy, M. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Mansfield Horace Kendall | Redmond, William (Clare) | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Mooney, John J. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Murphy, John | Roche, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rose, Charles Day | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Runciman, Walter | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Yoxall, James Henry |
| O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Sheehy, David | |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Flynn and Mr. Charles Hobhouse. |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo. S.) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | |
| O' Donnell, T. (Kerry. W.) | Slack, John Bamford | |
| O'Dowd, John | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Groves, James Grimble | Pym, C. Guy. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) | Heath, A. Howard (Hanley) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Heath, James (Stafford., N. W.) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Howard, J. (Kent. Faversham) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Bigwood, James | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Kerr, John | Smith, H.C. (North'mb'Pyneside) |
| Bull, William James | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Spear, John Ward |
| Butcher, John George | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks., N.R.) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire) | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stock, James Henry |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stroyan, John |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Wore) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tuff, Charles |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdona, John Cumming | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Maconochie, A. W. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Milvain, Thomas | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Morrell, George Herbert | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Finlay Sir Robert Bannatyne | Newdegate, Francis A.N. | |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Nicholson, William Graham | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Forster, Henry William | Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington) | |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Percy, Earl | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Plummer, Walter R. | |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. FLYNNsaid that they had got no account whatever from the Secretary for War as to whether this Vote included the cost of the expedition to Tibet.
§ MR. FLYNNsaid he intended to give a geographical account of Tibet, but, of 1071 course, he would not go on that line of route if it was irrelevant. What he wanted to know was the reason for the enormous discrepancy between the original Estimate and the present one. The Committee was entitled to a full and satisfactory explanation from the Secretary of State for War or from the Financial Secretary to the War Office. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £10,000.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 6, Sub-head E (China Expeditionary Force, Transport and Remounts), be reduced by £10,000."—(Mr. Flynn.)
§ MR. O'MARAsaid that, in seconding the Motion, he wished to express his amazement at the carelessness with which this Estimate had been drawn up. Instead of the Estimates being introduced in a proper and businesslike way, they were asked to vote in a hurried way, with the closure applied, these large sums. That was reducing the control of the House of Commons over expenditure to a farce. Under Appropriation in aid, under the same Sub-head, there was an item, "Proceeds of sale of horses, and other cast animals, £1,000,000." Had these accounts come in yet? The War Office must really know how much the rubbish of this Expedition had realised. Had it realised exactly £1,000,000?
* THE CHAIRMANsaid that the Appropriation in aid did not arise on this item. It had nothing to do with the China Expeditionary Force. The deduction referred to by the hon. Member did not come under Sub-head E, but Subhead G, of the Appropriation Vote. The misprint of E for G was obvious.
§ MR. O'MARAsaid that the Committee were not responsible for the printing of the Estimates. It was a monstrous way to put the business of the country before the House, because it led to great misunderstanding. The consideration of these Estimates ought to be postponed to allow the War Office to put a proper Paper before hon. Members. A Department which had the spending of 1072 £30,000,000, or £40,000,000 surely ought to have a clerk to read the proofs of the Papers before they were submitted to the House. It was scandalous the way in which information was given to the Committee, and the manner in which these different items were mixed up was another proof of the utter inefficiency of the War Office.
§ Mr. JOSEPH DEVLIN (Kilkenny, N.) moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again;" but the CHAIRMAN, being of opinion that the Motion was an abuse of the Rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.
§ Question again proposed, "That Item, Vote 6, Sub-head E (China Expeditionary Force, Transport and Remounts), be reduced by £10,000."
§ MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.)asked if it was open to move the Adjournment in order to give hon. Members an opportunity to see a correct Paper?
§ MR. O'MARAasked, on a point of order, how they could continue the debate on an incorrect Paper.
* THE CHAIRMANsaid that the mistake did not signify, and the hon. Member was not misled. He would not be entitled to refer to the Appropriation in aid when the China Expeditionary Force was under discussion.
§ MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid that the Supplementary Estimate was double the original, so that evidently the latter was absolutely misleading. Who made out the Estimates? Was it the Minister in charge of the Department, or was it some official? They noticed that as one Minister went out a new Minister came in, and, if all reports were true, there was seemingly no difficulty at all about that in view of the number of applications to fill the position. What he would like to know was, how and where this money was spent? Were the troops employed in China all British; 1073 were they white troops, for after all the declared and avowed policy of the Government was Imperialistic? They declared chat they were the pillars of the Empire; that they held up the Empire; and that they hoped to bring the Colonies together. In bringing troops to China, did they bring all British troops?
* THE CHAIRMANsaid that that had nothing whatever to do with the Vote; and he invited the hon. Gentleman to give his attention to the question under discussion.
§ MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid he was discussing the transport of troops to
§ China; perhaps he was wrong in doing that, and he might be right if he would take up the next question—that of remounts. Where were these remounts bought, and what was the price paid for them?
Mr. Secretary ARNOLD-FORSTERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put,"
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 137; Noes, 98. (Division List No. 24.)
1075| AYES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry) | Percy, Earl |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynetn'th) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Heath, A. Howard (Hanley) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) | Pym, C. Guy |
| Balcarres, Lord | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford. W.) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chrstch.) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hogg, Lindsay | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Hoult, Joseph | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Houston, Robert Paterson | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bignold, Arthur | Howard, J. (Kent, Favershain) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bigwood, James | Hunt, Rowland | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Kerr, John | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Bull, William James | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Butcher, John George | Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth) | Smith Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire) | Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks., N. R.) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stock, James Henry |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Stroyan, John |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Dalkeith Earl of | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tuff, Charles |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Rt Hon. Alfred | Valentia, Viscount |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Macdona, John Cumming | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Denny, Colonel | Maconochie, A.W. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Digby John K. D. Wingfield- | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshr | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Milvain, Thomas | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Finch, Rt Hon. George H. | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Morrell, George Herbert | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Flaunery, Sir Fortescue | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Forster, Henry William | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William Graham | |
| Groves, James Grimble | Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington) | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Reddy, M. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bell, Richard | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Boland, John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Brigg, John | Joyce, Michael | Roche, John |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kilbride, Denis | Rose, Chares Day |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Labouchere, Henry | Runciman, Walter |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Layland- Barratt, Francis | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Caldwell, James | Leng, Sir John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Sheehy, David |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lundon, W. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Slack, John Bamford |
| Crombie, John William | M'Kean, John | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sullivan, Donal |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mooney, John J. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Murphy, John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Toulmin, George |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | White, Luke (York. E. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Dowd, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Mara, James | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gilhooly, James | Perks, Robert William | |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Pirie, Duncan V. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Rea, Russell |
§ Question put accordingly.
1076§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 104; Noes, 150. (Division List No. 25.)
1077| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Bell, Richard | Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Boland, John | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | O' Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Brigg, John | Goddard, Daniel Ford | O' Dowd, John |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hayden, John Patrick | O' Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O'Mara, James |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Perks, Robert William |
| Caldwell, James | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Campbell, Bannerman, Sir H. | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Russell |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Reckett, Harold James |
| Crean, Eugene | Labouchere, Henry | Reddy, M. |
| Crombie, John William | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Leng, Sir John | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lundon, W. | Roche, John |
| Doogan, P. C. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rose, Charles Day |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Runciman, Walter |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | M'Kean, John | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Mansfield Horace Rendall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Mooney, John J. | Sheehy, David |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Murphy, John | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Slack, John Bamford |
| Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants) | Toulmin, George | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Stevenson, Francis S. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Sullivan, Donal | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) | |
| Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) | |
| Tomkinson, James | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry) | Percy, Earl |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Heath, A. Howard (Hanley) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Balcarres, Lord | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) | Pym, C. Guy |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. B. W. (Leeds) | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Hogg, Lindsay | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Hoult, Joseph | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Bignold, Arthur | Houston, Robert Paterson | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bigwood, James | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hunt, Rowland | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Bull, William James | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Butcher, John George | Kerr, John | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Lawrence, Wm. P. (Liverpool) | Smith, H.C. (North'mb Tyneside) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc) | Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks, N.R.) | Spear, John Ward |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lee, A H. (Hants. Fareham) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stock, James Henry |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Stroyan, John |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol S.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Ed. M. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tuff, Charles |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Denny, Colonel | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Macdona, John Gumming | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Maconochie, A. W. | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A Akers- | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Manners, Lord Cecil | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Milner, Rt Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Milvain, Thomas | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H.(Yorks.) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Montagu G. (Huntingdon) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Worthy, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Morrell, George Herbert | Wylie, Alexander |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Forster, Henry William | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) | Wyndham-Quin, Major, W. H. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc) | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | |
| Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Nicholson, William Graham | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington) | |
| Groves, James Grimble | Pemberton, John S. G. |
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid that this item of £700,000 included the purchase of remounts. He noticed in the papers a paragraph from Reuter's correspondent stating that in Somaliland camels 1078 had been purchased at elastic prices. He thought they were entitled to have some explanation as to how this vast sum of £700,000 had been spent upon transport and remounts. Everybody knew that in this expedition the question of transport had been from first to last the crux of the 1079 situation. It had been exceedingly difficult to move troops from post to post but he did not think there was any excuse for such a wastage of animals as was represented by this large sum. He wished to know what number of transport animals was included in this £700,000. During the late Boer war they were constantly told that it was impossible to give the price at which the transport animals were bought, but in the end they were presented with a bill of £15,500,000. With regard to this expedition over £1,000,000 had been spent in transport already, and they ought to have some details of this expenditure. Who was responsible for this expenditure? Were the remounts being bought by the Indian or the British Remount and Transport Department, and upon what system were they bought? Were they bought through the medium of large contractors or haphazard on the spot by advertisement? He wished to know whether economical methods had been adopted and he wanted some general information.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs)said the sum under this head was a very large one, although nobody could be surprised that the cost of transport in this campaign was very large. This was not merely a question of what they had spent upon transport, but as to what they were going to spend, and the expenditure of the future was certain to be very large. The item as it was now presented to them, was about three times the estimated cost of the whole campaign, and it would continue to be one of their largest items of expenditure. The Secretary of State for War had said he had some expectation of a favourable result, but he could not prophesy as to what the course of events would be, and they were, therefore, pursuing what might be an interminable expenditure, and this would have a very bad effect upon public opinion. He was satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon had represented that night the common sense of the country upon the Somaliland campaign. He also believed that the right hon. Gentleman in the views he had expressed represented 1080 the views of the majority of the House of Commons and he felt certain that he represented the views of the great majority of people outside the House. This expedition was regarded as a purposeless campaign which offered no hope of termination within a reasonable period, and it was being waged with very little hope of a satisfactory result.
* THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member has no right to go into the policy of the campaign except so far as it refers to transport and remounts.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he merely referred to the size of this item for remounts as an example of the need that there was for some far more specific statement of policy than they had yet received from the War Office, to justify what was a very unsatisfactory campaign.
§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid it was quite true that the Supplementary Estimates were three times the size of the original Estimates, but it should not be forgotten that the original Estimate was based on the assumption that the campaign would have come to an end much earlier. Hon. Members opposite would admit that the whole House had by a majority approved of the campaign, and the only question now before them was whether they would vote the necessary supplies. Ho did not feel so much concerned about the arguments as to the policy, but what did concern him was the fact that they were at war and the troops must be properly supplied well fed, well armed, and well equipped. The House having approved of the policy, it was now asked to vote the necessary supplies. He had been asked how the sum of £700,000 required for transport and remounts was distributed. In respect of £400,000 it represented the transport of troops, animals, and stores from India to the seat of war, and the balance of £300,000 represented, for the most part, the purchase of transport animals, both locally and by the Indian Government. He believed the number of animals—camels, horses, and mules—was about 19,000. They had cost, therefore, an average of about £16 each. He did not 1081 know that unnecessarily high prices had been paid.
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid he did not think the hon. Member could expect them to be quite satisfied with that explanation.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDWe are not satisfied at all.
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid he agreed with the hon. Member that if they were going on with this campaign it would be most foolish extravagance not to provide the Army with proper equipment. What the hon. Member did not tell them was upon what system this large amount of transport had been bought. From their experience in the last war in South Africa, they knew that it made all the difference in the world as to how they bought the animals. They had most startling disclosures during the Boer war as to the purchase of remounts, and what guarantee had they that something of the same sort had not been perpetrated in this case. He understood that in India a complete system of information had been organised, and that the Government bought through large contractors, rejecting animals which were not up to the proper standard. Had that method been adopted, or had we gone on under the old system of buying leisurely through dealers, which obtained under the British Remount Department in connection with the War Office? Those were points upon which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury had said nothing, and, while he was very unwilling to move a reduction, to put himself on the safe side, he would move that the Vote be reduced by £100 in order to get an effective answer from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 6, Sub-head F (Somaliland Expeditionary Force, Transport and Remounts), be reduced by £100."—(Mr. Charles Hobhouse.)
§ MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid if the hon. Gentleman was satisfied with the Indian system he might withdraw his Motion. The campaign was being managed and conducted under the Indian Government out of funds provided by the War Department. He was 1082 not himself responsible for the conduct of the campaign. The animals were being purchased by the Indian Government, and presumably under the system which the hon. Member approved.
§ MR. FLYNNcomplained that the estimate was originally only £100,000. Who outside Bedlam would have expected to see the Estimate swollen from £100,000 to £800,000. He remembered reading some of the detailed accounts of the expedition against the Mad Mullah—he was rather inclined to think the word "Mad" should be transferred from the the Mullah to the War Office. He could not forget having read that we were so unprepared for the expedition on which we had entered that the wily dervishes took the opportunity to sell us their camels at enhanced prices. Clearly the Indian Government had failed to take the proper precautions to secure a supply of transport animals. There was too much elasticity in this Estimate—indeed, to describe as elastic an increase of eight times the original Estimate was to abuse the word; it was something more than elastic.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDcomplained that although they had been told that the campaign was being conducted by the Indian Government, yet they had not had a single, solitary word from the Secretary for India to show that he took the slightest interest in the matter. He could not admit that the House of Commons had accepted the responsibility for this war. At every stage in connection with the proceedings most vigorous and emphatic protests had been entered against the operations by Members of the House. Even the majority could not be said to have authorised the expenditure.
* THE CHAIRMANOrder, order! The hon. Gentleman is now travelling a long way from the Vote before the Committee.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he recognised that the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to conduct the proceedings in the fairest possible way, but he submitted that he was only making a legitimate reply to a statement from the 1083 Government Benches as to the responsibility of the House of Commons.
* THE CHAIRMANThat was the reason why I did not interrupt the hon. Member before. I now invite him to give his attention to the item before the Committee.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI am very much obliged for your kindly invitation. I am most anxious to pay the closest attention in my power to the Vote. The hon. Member then went on to state that his objection to the item was that the House sanctioned the expedition on the understanding that £100,000 would be sufficient for transport, yet now the heads of the War Office came down and said, "We have made a little mistake; we ought to have asked for £800,000 for transports in this wretched, miserable war in Somaliland." Would hon. Members have so cheerfully voted money for the war had they known that the expenditure on that would have been so enormously increased? This one item was an illustration of the whole policy of the Government in the matter. Nobody knew where we were being led to. Was it unreasonable for hon. Members representing Ireland to ask for a plain and clear indication as to what was in the minds of the authorities with regard to this protracted campaign? Were they to anticipate any further increases of expenditure?
* THE CHAIRMANI am afraid the hon. Member has forgotten my invitation. I must renew my invitation to him to confine himself strictly to the item now before the Committee.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI certainly had not forgotten you, Sir, and I hope I never shall.
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERrose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
* THE CHAIRMANI think the hon. Member is about to bring his observations to a close, therefore for the present I will not accept the Motion.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDYou are perfectly correct, Sir. It is a good thing 1084 for the good order and good temper of the debate that you are in the chair instead of a gentleman so impatient that he will not allow anybody to criticise, even for five minutes, the Department for which he is reponsible. In conclusion, the hon. Member asked if the ratepayers were ever to get rid of the nightmare of that miserable, inglorious, and futile expedition? Was it in accordance with ancient usage that such Supplementary Estimates should be put down without any explanation at all? He claimed that they ought to protest by dividing against that system of enormously increased Supplementary Estimates and also against a war, commenced by the Foreign Office, muddled by the War Office but managed by the India Office, the representative of which had not deigned to say a word in regard to it.
§ * MR. HERBERT SAMUEL (Yorkshire, Cleveland)asked if the Government had taken every possible step to secure the utmost economy in this matter. In the Report of the Royal Commission on the South African War was the evidence of several witnesses who recommended the appointment of financial advisers to be attached to future expeditions in order to advise the General Commanding and to have an oversight over questions of contracting and accountancy. Had that course been followed in the present instance?
§ MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)inquired if the sum now asked for covered any estimated expenditure beyond the 31st March?
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERreplied that the purchases were made in this case in Aden and India, and there was consequently no necessity to attach a financial adviser to the staff of the commander of the expedition. In reply to the hon. Member for Islington, of course only expenditure to the 31st March was covered by the Estimate.
§ MR. FLAVIN (Kerry, N.)complained of the unsatisfactory character of the Government explanations.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 169; (Division List No. 26)
1087| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Reddy, M. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Barry, B. (Cork, S.) | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bell, Richard | Joyce, Michael | Roche, John |
| Blake, Edward | Kearley, Hudson E. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Boland, John | Kilbride, Denis | Runciman, Walter |
| Brigg, John | Labouchere, Henry | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Layland- Barratt, Francis | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Leng, Sir John | Sheehy, David |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Lewis, John Herbert | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Lough, Thomas | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Lundon, W. | Slack, John Bamford |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | M'Kean, John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Delany, William | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Tomkinson, James |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mooney, John J. | Toulmin, George |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Doogan, P. C. | Murphy, John | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Dowd, John | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Malley, William | Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Hudd'rsf'd |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O' Mara, James | Young, Samuel |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Partington, Oswald | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Perks, Robert William | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Power, Patrick Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Charles Hobhouse and Sir Joseph Leese. |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Priestley, Arthur | |
| Harmsworth, R. (Leicester) | Rea, Russell | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Reckitt, Harold James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bond, Edward | Davenport, W. Bromley- |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F. (Middlesex | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bull, William James | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Butcher, John George | Doxford, Sir William Theodore |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derby shire) | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Faber, George Denison (York) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) | Give, Captain Percy A. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christeh.) | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Forster, Henry William |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Fyler, John Arthur |
| Bignold, Arthur | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Bigwood, James | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Gore, Hn G. R.C. Ormsby-(Salop) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Macdona, John Gumming | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Groves, James Grimble | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyneside) |
| Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry) | Manners, Lord Cecil | Spear, John Ward |
| Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshire) | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Harris, Dr. Fredk. E. (Dulwich) | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.) |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Milvain, Thomas | Stock, James Henry |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Stroyan, John |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley) | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Heath, J antes (Staffords., N. W.) | Morrell, George Herbert | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) |
| Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Mount, William Arthur | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Hickman, Sir Alfred | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Tuff, Charles |
| Hoult, Joseph | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Howard, John(Kent Faversham) | Nicholson, William Graham | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H. |
| Hunt, Rowland | Pemberton, John S. G. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Percy, Earl | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) | Plummer, Walter R. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Kerr, John | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.) |
| Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath) |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Pym, C. Guy | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne | Wylie, Alexander |
| Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham) | Ratcliff, R. F. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Remnant, James Farquharson | |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | |
| Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. BUCHANANremarked that various explanations had been given with regard to the item of £900,000 for Imperial railways, the latest, and probably the best considered and most accurate, being that these railways in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony were taken and worked by the military authorities during the war, that they were worked by them on their own account to 31st March, 1902, and on the colonial account until 30th June, 1902; that so far as working expenses during that period were concerned, there was nothing included in the Vote; and that during their occupation the military spent large sums of money in improving the lines and purchasing rolling-stock. All this expenditure took place 1088 before 31st March, because anything after that date would have been debited to the colonial Government. Apparently the House of Commons was never informed of he matter, as no entry of the expenditture appeared on the Estimates, unless, as had been suggested, it was included in the item of £350,000 for stores supplied from stock. If that suggestion was correct, he did not think it was a fair or frank method of bringing so important a matter before the House. It further appeared that this money was carried to, and kept for two years in, a Suspense Account. That was a somewhat unusual course, and he desired to know whether it had the sanction of the Treasury; if so, whether there was no limit as to the amount for, and the time which, such a suspense account could be carried on. As to the counter-claim the 1089 Committee was entitled to know on what basis it was made up, and on what foundation the expectation that the bulk of the money would be refunded by the Transvaal was raised. Further, was the £1,000,000 expected from the Transvaal, the £1,000,000 due under the South African Loan Act of last year, or was it the sum expected to be paid in respect of the expenditure on the lines during their occupation by the military authorities? In order to elicit a reply on these points he moved to reduce the Vote by £5,000.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Vote 6, Sub-head BB (South Africa, Expenditure in connection with Imperial Military Railways), be reduced by £5,000."—(Mr. Buchanan.)
§ * SIR EDGAR VINCENT (Exeter)asked from what source this £900,000 was obtained. It appeared to be admitted that in or before 1902, a sum of either £900,000 or £1,230,000 had been paid on account of the railways in South Africa. No Vote had been taken in the House to justify the expenditure, and no mention of the payment appeared in the Finance Accounts of 1902 or 1903. It came as a great shock to him to learn that so large a sum as £900,000 could be paid without any authority from Parliament, and without any mention in the financial accounts of the year that such a payment had been made. Was this payment included in the Exchequer issues for Army Services in 1902 or 1903? If it was, he did not understand the necessity for a Supplementary Estimate now. If it was not so included, the natural conclusion was that money voted for totally different purposes had been diverted to this, and unless some explanation could be given, their confidence in the 1090 whole system of accounts must be considerably shaken. There certainly appeared to have been a breach of the rules of sound financial administration.
§ SIR JOSEPH LEESE (Lancashire, Accrington)understood that this sum of £900,000 had been spent by the Imperial Government on the railways, and that there was an obligation on the part of somebody to repay the money, but that it was not repaid because something in the nature of a counter-claim had been set up. That being so, he desired to ask what were the particulars of the counter-claim, was it simply a case of unliquidated damages? Who were the parties to the issue, and by what tribunal was the case to be tried?
§ * THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,) Worcestershire, E.said the last point had already been answered. ["No." He did not know whether the hon. Member for Accrington attached value to the legal phraseology in which he couched his inquiries.
§ SIR JOSEPH LEESEsaid that what he wanted to know was who made the counter-claim, and what were its details?
§ * MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINexplained that there was a claim for a sum of money now on the Votes, a claim which, after this Vote was passed, remained unaffected, on the part of the Government of this country against the Government of the Colony. There was a counterclaim by the Government of the Colony, which was not admitted by His Majesty's Government, for wear and tear and damage to the railways while in the possession 1091 or occupation of the military authorities. His object in rising, however, was not to repeat an explanation he had already given, but to reply to the inquiries of the hon. Member for East Perthshire and his hon. friend the Member for Exeter. His hon. friend had asked about the £900,000 expended in improvements to the railways in the colonies and he wished to know from what source that money was obtained. The history of the transaction was this: the military authorities reported that certain additions to railway communications were required for military operations for the war which was then being conducted. They also required additional rolling stock to successfully conclude the war. The Civil Government agreed that these additions would be of value to the Colony when they took over the railways on the re-establishment of peace. They agreed to pay for them, and did not dispute their liability to pay on that account. In these circumstances, the War Office applied to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day to know whether they might sanction an advance from military funds for these purposes, and the Treasury gave their approval. This sum was provided for in the Exchequer issues of 1901–2 and 1902–3. Thus, on the 31st of March, certain liabilities remained outstanding, being represented by the outstanding imprests for which accounts were not rendered. His hon. friend had asked whether this continued for an unlimited time without coming to the knowledge of the Department, and whether this sum was included in the Exchequer issues. This sum was provided out of the Exchequer issues. The House of Commons voted a certain sum of money and the Exchequer issues were within the limits of the sum voted by the House on the demand of the spending 1092 Department. As this expenditure took place all over the world, it was impossible to know what would be the actual claim on the 31st March, and it inevitably happened that some balances remained unexpended on the 31st of March. He would assume, for example, that the House granted £10,000 for a particular purpose. The spending Department would draw upon the Exchequer for £10,000, but when the accounts were closed and audited he would assume that they had not spent the £10,000 but £100 short of that amount. What then would be the procedure? That £100 which they had received and which was an Exchequer issue, but for which they could produce no voucher in that year, would be deducted from the grant which Parliament made to them in the subsequent year. They would be considered as having that amount in hand, and the Vote which Parliament made would be paid to them in an Exchequer issue less by the amount remaining unaccounted for at the close of the previous year. This money which had been referred to was included in the Exchequer issues of 1901–2 and 1902–3. His hon. friend had inquired how long this had gone on without coming to the knowledge of the Department. The accounts of any financial year, which ended on 31st March, were finally closed on 30th September. As soon as possible after that date the Comptroller and Auditor-General was furnished with a statement of the balance outstanding on these accounts. That statement appeared on the Appropriation Accounts rendered to Parliament, and the Committee would find the whole of the sum included in the Appropriation Accounts, which would be in the hands of Members in a very few days, together with the remarks of the Comptroller and Auditor-General upon them.
§ MR. BUCHANANasked if the right hon. Gentleman meant that this sum was included in the Appropriation Accounts of 1901–2 or 1902–3.
§ * MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid it was alluded to in the Auditor-General's Report for 1901–2, and the whole matter in its final and definite form would appear in the Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report on the Appropriation Accounts of 1902–3. A complaint had been made that the Auditor and Comptroller-General had not called attention to this matter, but he was aware of what was going on as would be seen from the correspondence which he carried on with the War Office and the Treasury at that time. The hon. Member himself was a member of the Public Accounts Committee for many years, and he knew that the Comptroller and Auditor-General was the officer of this House and not of the Treasury or of any Department of the Government; in fact he was independent of them, and it was not for them to suggest what action he should take. He was not quite sure whether he had made this matter clear to the House, but his hon. friend would understand that the money was included in the Exchequer issues; it appeared as an outstanding balance and could not run beyond the 30th.of September without being disclosed by the War Office, and reported to the House by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. He thought it would have been better if the Treasury had insisted that a Supplementary Estimate should have been taken for this sum at an earlier time. He was loth to criticise even in a friendly spirit anything that had been done by the Treasury when he was not responsible, but as a guide for the future he thought the 1094 Treasury ought to take the earliest opportunity of placing sums of this kind before the House in the form of Estimates, reserving to themselves the full right of claiming repayment from those from whom repayment was due. The voting of this money would close the War Office account, but it would not give any relief to the person upon whom they had a claim; their claim remained in force, and they would do their best to secure its payment in due time. He had told the House the history of this very complicated matter, and he did not think the Treasury ought to allow a sum of this kind to be carried beyond the very first opportunity they had of bringing it to the notice of the House.
§ SIR JOSEPH LEESEasked what tribunal was it proposed should decide as to the value of the claim and counterclaim.
§ * MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid there was no tribunal required to settle a dispute between the colonial Government and the home Government.
§ SIR JOSEPH LEESEasked who was to decide on the counter-claim.
§ * MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid this was a matter of arrangement between the colonial authorities and the Government. He deprecated any suggestion that a question of account or claim and counter-claim between a colony and ourselves should be treated as a matter to be referred to some outside tribunal. He hoped that they might arrange these matters amicably by negotiations between the authorities at home 1095 and in the colony, without the necessity of introducing any third party.
§ * SIR M. HICKS BEACH (Bristol, W.)said that, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer who was responsible for allowing this expenditure out of the Army Votes in 1901–2, he thought his right hon. friend had given a perfectly fair account of what happened at that time. There certainly was a clear understanding given to him by those who represented the War Office at the time, that this expenditure was absolutely necessary for the purposes of the war, and therefore he thought that it might be properly charged on the Exchequer issues for the war. The expenditure was for rolling stock and repairing the line, and therefore he further obtained a promise that on account of the improvement in the rolling stock and in the line, which, of course, would be due to that expenditure, the colonial Government, which after the war took over the railway, and would have the benefit of the railways in the future, would recoup the Imperial Exchequer for both those amounts. In those circumstances he sanctioned that expenditure. He ceased to be Chancellor of the Exchequer in August, 1902, and of course knew nothing of any subsequent proceedings; but he could quite understand that his successor did not like apparently to throw doubt upon the recovery of the money from the Transvaal by submitting an Estimate in the year 1902–03 for its repayment; and he hoped that nothing that had been said, or would be said, in that debate would throw any doubt upon that recovery. He did not think that any fairer charge could be imposed upon the Colonies than this. They would have the benefit of all the expenditure, and, as to the counter 1096 claim, personally he did not much believe in it.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was sure no hon. Member would cast any doubt upon this counter-claim. As regarded the actual position of this particular fund he was left as much in the dark at the end of the right hon. Gentleman's speech as he was at the beginning. He thought the criticisms of his hon. friend had been more than justified and he agreed that this sum ought not to appear in this way, and it ought to have been liquidated before. Under these circumstances he did not think it was worth while to pursue the discussion of a very difficult question which he had great difficulty in following, and which had not been made much clearer by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. While he agreed that the small sums might very well be left in the suspense account it was not right that such a large sum as £900,000 should to be left over for two years in the suspense account which practically left it in the control of a particular Department. After the white sheet in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stood he did not desire to pursue the subject further.
§ MR. WHITLEYpointed out that one question which had not been dealt with was that this £1,250,000 was a claim on the Transvaal Government at the time these railways were handed over. The Committee would recollect that some ten months ago the House decided to authorise the raising of £35,000,000 under the Imperial guarantee, and part of that money, amounting to about £12,000,000, was to go to pay the Dutch shareholders and others who were the previous owners 1097 of those railways. Surely the claim of the home Government upon the colonial Government was in the nature of a prior claim. When those railways were handed over to the colonial Government as a business concern they were informed that they would produce a profit of no less than £2,500,000 a year, and it was clear that if the Government had shown any business capacity they would have insisted that this claim, which they said was a perfectly sound and just one, should have been met whilst they were owners of the line and they should have made proper arrangement for the settlement of their claim. The sum of £12,000,000 had been paid to the Dutch shareholders and the claim of the British taxpayer had been allowed to go by the board. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given them no satisfactory assurance as to what was the nature of the acknowledgment of this debt. He wished to know if the right hon. Gentleman would lay on the Table any correspondence from Lord Milner which would show that this question had been treated as a legal obligation which they might recover. J After Lord Milner's Government had stated that a profit of £2,500,000 a year was anticipated from these railways he thought the claim of the British taxpayers ought not to be deferred in this way, and it ought to be made a first charge upon the undertaking. He hoped they would be able to get more information upon this point.
§ MR. O'MARAsaid he should like to know something more about the counterclaim which the Colonies had made. They had heard nothing yet as to how far this country had been committed with regard to the spending of this 1098 £900,000. In the year 1901–02 the Chancellor of the Exchequer authorised the expenditure of £900,000 for the purpose of improving railways in South Africa on the understanding from the War Office that this expenditure was necessary for the purpose of carrying on the war, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day received an assurance that this sum would be repaid at the end of the war. On those two assurances the Chancellor of the Exchequer of 1901–2 authorised the expenditure of this money. The House of Commons was not informed of this fact, and it had not come within the cognisance of the House until the present time. It was a very serious thing for any Chancellor of the Exchequer to authorise payments, simply on the assurance of a Civil Government, over which he exercised no control, without first obtaining the consent of the House of Commons to the expenditure of such money. He considered that this was a breach of the traditional policy which governed the finances of this House. Any Chancellor of the Exchequer who did this kind of thing laid himself open to a charge of a gross breach of confidence in this House. How could they feel sure, under these circumstances, that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was not receiving similar assurances, and that public money was not now being spent in millions without the House knowing anything about it. Here was a sum of £900,000 which had been spent and the House was not informed of it until two years afterwards. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol had taken upon himself a responsibility which he ought not to have done. [Cries of "Divide, divide."] He could quite understand 1099 that hon. Members opposite did not care much about £900,000——
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 170; Noes, 113. (Division List No. 27)
1101| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Grenfell, William Henry | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Groves, James Grimble | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry) | Percy, Earl |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Haslett, Sir James Horner- | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Pym, C. Guy |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley) | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hormon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bigwood, James | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hogg, Lindsay | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Bond, Edward | Hoult, Joseph | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F. (Middlesex | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Butcher, John George | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hunt, Rowland | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyneside) |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A.(Worc. | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Spear, John Ward |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. | Kerr, John | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stock, James Henry |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Stroyan, John |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxfd Univ.) |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Tuff, Charles |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Macdona, John dimming | Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Manners, Lord Cecil | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Maxwell, W.J. H. (Dumfriesshire) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Milvain, Thomas | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.) |
| Forster, Henry William | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath) |
| Fyler, John Arthur | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Calloway, William Johnson | Morrell, George Herbert | Wylie, Alexander |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morrison, James Archibald | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morton, Arthur H. Ayliner | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets) | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Gore, Hn. G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop) | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute) | |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Boland, John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Brigg, John |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Blake, Edward | Broadhurst, Henry |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Kilbride, Denis | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Caldwell, James | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Roberts John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Roche, John |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Leighy Sir Joseph | Rose, Charles Day |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leng, Sir John | Runciman, Walter |
| Crean, Eugene | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lundon, W. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehy, David |
| Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Kean, John | Slack, John Bamford |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Mooney, John J. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Murphy, John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Tomkinson, James |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O' Brien, P. J. (Tipperary N.) | Toulmin, George |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O' Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Dowel, John | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Malley, William | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Mara, James | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsfld) |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Priestley, Arthur | Young, Samuel |
| Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Rea, Russell | |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Redely, M. | |
| Joyce, Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
§ Question put accordingly.
1102§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 113 Noes, 171. (Division List No. 28).
1103| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Freeman- Thomas, Captain F. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Blake, Edward | Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Boland, John | Griffith, Ellis, J. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Brigg, John | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hay den, John Patrick | O' Dowd, John |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O 'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N. |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Malley, William |
| Caldwell, James | Hobhouse, C. E. H.(Bristol, E.) | O'Mara, James |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Partington, Oswald |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Joyce, Michael | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Crean, Eugene | Kearley, Hudson E. | Priestley, Arthur |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kilbride, Denis | Rea, Russell |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Delany, William | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Reddy, M. |
| Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway) | Leng, Sir John | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lundon, W. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Doogan, P. C. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roche, John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Runciman, Walter |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | M'Kean, John | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | M'Kenna, Reginald | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mooney, John J. | Sheehy, David |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Murphy, John | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Slack, John Bamford | Toulmin George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Soares, Errest J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsfld) |
| Sullivan, Donal | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Young, Samuel |
| Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | White, George (Norfolk) | |
| Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) | Mr. Buchanan and Sir Joseph Leese. |
| Tomkinson, James | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Grenfell, William Henry | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Groves, James Grimble | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Percy, Earl |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balcarres, Lord | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds) | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Pryce Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pym, C. Guy |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rasch, Sir Frederic Came |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley) | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bigwood, James | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hogg, Lindsay | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bond, Edward | Hoult, Joseph | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F. (Middlesex) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Butcher, John George | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hunt, Rowland | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire) | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyneside) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Spear, John Ward |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.) | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Kenyon Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kerr, John | Stock, James Henry |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stroyan, John |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lawson, John Grant(Yorks, N. R.) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Davenport, W. Bromley | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tuff, Chares |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E.(Taunton |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Macdona, John Cumming | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Whiteley, H.(Ashton-und-Lyne |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Manners, Lord Cecil | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Milvain, Thomas | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath) |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Forster, Henry William | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Wylie, Alexander |
| Fyler, John Arthur | Morrell, George Herbert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Morrison, James Archibald | Wyndham-Quin, Major H. W. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Mount, William Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | |
| Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc) | Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham(Bute) | |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
§ Original Question put accordingly, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,700,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for Additional Expenditure, in respect of the following Army Services, viz:—
1106| £ | |
| Vote 1. Pay, etc, of the Army | 2,000,000 |
| Vote 6. Transport and Remounts | 2,100,000 |
| Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | 2,030,000 |
| Total | £6,130,000 |
| Excess Appropriations-in-Aid (Votes 1, 6, 7, 9, and 10) | 3,430,000 |
| £2,700,000 |
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 169; Noes, 109. (Division List No. 29.)
1107| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gardner, Ernest | Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriesshire) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goldon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets) | Milvain, Thomas |
| Arnold-Forster. Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby (Linc.) | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Morgan, David. J (Walthamstow) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Worrell, George Herbert |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Balcarres, Lord | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds) | Grenfell, William Henry | Mount, William Arthur |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Groves, James Grimble | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hambro, Charles Eric | Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute) |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Bignold, Arthur | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Bigwood, James | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Peel. Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Bond, Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Percy, Earl |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F (Middlesex) | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.) | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Butcher, John George | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hogg, Lindsay | Pym, C. Guy |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A.(Worc. | Hoult, Joseph | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh' m) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hunt, Rowland | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop. | |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Kerr, John | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sadler, Colonel Samuel A. |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R | Smith, HC. (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham | Spear, John Ward |
| Doxford Sir William Theodore | Lees Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Stock, James Henry, |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Stroyan, John |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxfd'Univ.) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Macdona, John Gumming | Tuff, Charles |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fyler, John Arthur | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Manners, Lord Cecil | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H. | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Warde, Colonel C. E. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.) | |
| Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn-Fellows. |
| Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart | |
| Whitmore, Charles Algernon | Wylie, Alexander | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Reddy, M. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Blake, Edward | Joyce, Michael | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Boland, John | Kearley, Hudson E. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Brigg, John | Kilbride, Denis | Roche, John |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rose, Charles Day |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Leng, Sir John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Sheehy, David |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lundon, W. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Crean, Eugene | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Slack, John Bamford |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Delany, William | M'Kean, John | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mansfield, Horace Kendall | Thomas, David Alfred (Morthyr) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Mooney, John J. | Tomkinson, James |
| Doogan, P. C. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Toulmin, George |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Murphy, John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Malley, William | Young, Samuel |
| Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John | O'Mara, James | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Partington, Oswald | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Goddard and Mr. Runciman. |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Priestley, Arthur | |
| Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. | Rea, Russell |
§ And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.