HC Deb 02 August 1904 vol 139 cc524-7
DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to confer a measure of local self-government upon the Orange River Colony at the same time as upon the Transvaal Colony; and, if not, whether he will state the reason why.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,) Warwick and Leamington

No final conclusions have been arrived at by His Majesty's Government on this subject.

DR. MACNAMARA

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what voice, if any, it is proposed to give the House of Commons in the form of local self-government to be conferred upon the Transvaal Colony before the matter is finally determined.

The follow Question also appeared on the Paper—

DR. MAGNAMARA

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the Notice of Motion handed in on Tuesday, 26th July, by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Handsworth Division, relating to representative government in the Transvaal; and, if so, whether he will give an opportunity for the discussion of this proposed Motion before the close of the present session or before any operative steps are taken in the matter of conferring the proposed form of self-government upon the Transvaal.

THE PRIME MINISTEP AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.

The hon. Member has two Questions down in regard to time for the discussion of this question. So far as I am aware, there is no precedent at all, in the many cases which have occurred in which similar proceedings have been taken with regard to British Colonies, for a preliminary discussion upon the subject. Of course anything which requires statutory sanction by this House would have to be fully discussed by this House, and even in the absence of statutory sanction, of course there are opportunities when the House can call in question any action of the Government.

DR. MACNAMARA

Will there be legislative action?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Of course legislative action can only take place in the House subject to the discussion of the House.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)

Is there any precedent for a case of this sort, where a large community, such as lives in the Transvaal, has been incorporated in the British Empire as the result of a war, and then has had representative government given to it?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not know that the mode in which this country became possessed of the Colony is very relevant to the fact of giving it a Constitution. A great many of our Colonies have been obtained by war, and a great many by peaceful occupation; but I do not think either of these considerations is relevant.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

Will there not be a Constitution set up in the Transvaal by Act of Parliament as in the case of Western Australia?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

If, and when, that happens clearly Parliament will have full power to discuss it.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Will there be?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Are the Government not to be allowed to consider that point?

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

To clear up the point, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether it is in- tended to take action for establishing these representative institutions before the House reassembles next session.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

There is no intention, as I understand, of taking any action between this session and next session which requires the legislative sanction of this House.

DR. MACNAMARA

In the event of this matter being settled by an Order in Council, will operative steps be taken before Parliament has had some voice in the determination of the form of self-government?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

It is impossible at the present stage to say whether it will or will not require an Order in Council. That I cannot state with positive assurance. But certainly we shall not be precluded from proceeding with our policy.

DR. MACNAMARA

In the event of the matter being capable of settlement by Order in Council and not by legislation, will the Government then contemplate going on with the matter before the House has had the opportunity of discussing it?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

We shall not consider ourselves precluded from taking such a course.

DR. MACNAMARA

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge?

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham)

Will you not give us a day to discuss the matter?

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The Questions oil the Paper have been fully answered, and a good many more.

DR. MACNAMARA

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my second Question on the Paper which was addressed to him.

*MR. SPEAKER

I understood that the right hon. Gentleman answered the two Questions together.

DR. MACNAMARA

With all respect, No, Sir. I desire to ask him whether he will give a day for the discussion of this proposed Motion of the hon. Member for the Handsworth Division before the close of the present session, or before any operative steps are taken in the matter of conferring the proposed form of self-government upon the Transvaal.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I thought I had answered that Question already. The hon. Gentleman and the House must see clearly that it is perfectly impossible for us to discuss the scheme of the Government until that scheme is settled. It is not settled, and any discussion or any expenditure of time upon it would, in my opinion, be wholly wasteful.