§ Moved to Resolve, That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt, Customs, and Inland Revenue."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
MR. GIBSON BOWLESconsidered that this was a most proper Resolution to propose. He remembered one year when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol attempted to do without it but in the end he had to bring it forward. He should vote for it with the greatest possible pleasure.
§ MR. MCKENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell them what this Resolution, meant. He understood that they could discuss upon it any business of a financial character.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the object of this Resolution was to enable changes to be proposed in their financial system which were not covered by the Resolutions which had already been proposed. If they did not pass this Resolution it would be impossible for 1240 hon. Members interested, and who had given notice to discuss certain questions, to make any proposals such as a Motion to repeal the coal duty. This Resolution simply enlarged the scope of the debate in the subsequent stages of the Finance Bill, but he did not imagine that on this Resolution which was merely an enabling Resolution, that it would be in order to discuss their financial system at large.
§ MR. McKENNAasked if they could discuss the coal tax now upon this Resolution?
* THE CHAIRMANIt is obvious that it would not be possible upon this Resolution to move any Amendment the effect of which would be to abolish the export duty on coal. The proper time to do that would be on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has quite accurately interpreted the meaning of this Resolution, which is that it places it. within the power of the House when the Bill reaches the Committee stage to move such Amendments as those which the right hon. Gentleman has described; although such matters may be discussed now the 1241 Committee cannot come to any decision upon them.
§ MR. J. H. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)asked if this Resolution was intended to cover, and did it cover, the introduction of the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill. He wished to know if the Government proposed to introduce any Amendments to the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill this year.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid this Resolution referred only to the ordinary Budget Bill. He was not quite sure what Amendments the hon. Member was referring to. He did not think he should have to propose a new Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, and probably it would be for the convenience of the House that he should bring in an omnibus Bill dealing with the various points connected with the revenue, but that question would come on at a later stage. This was an ordinary formal Resolution enabling hon. Members to make proposals in Committee on the Budget Bill upon questions not included in the Resolutions which had already been passed.
MR.GIBSON BOWLESpointed out that the Finance Bill of 1894 embraced all that was included in the old Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, and although the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to throw some doubt upon the matter, he supposed the measure would still be called the Finance Bill.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThat is so.
MR. GIBSON BOWLEScontended that the Finance Bill must contain not only the proposals of this Bill but also the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill. He did not 'understand his right hon. to say that he absolutely intended to introduce a second Bill. He hoped he did not mean that.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid this Resolution was for the Finance Bill which was framed entirely upon the model of its predecessors. There were some matters connected with revenue, Excise, and Customs, which were from time to time brought to his notice. Into some 1242 of these matters he had not yet been able to go with the care which the circumstances demanded, but what he did know was that he had received strong representations from chambers of commerce and other bodies, that certain amendments of the law were necessary, quite apart from his Budget proposals of this year. All he wished to do was to reserve to himself the right to deal with these matters if, upon proper examination, he found it necessary or right to make proposals to the Committee. He was certainly nursing no designs for upsetting our financial system.
§ MR. LOUGHhoped the hon. Member for King's Lynn would not allow himself to be turned from his purpose by tin-gentle speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Committee were not accustomed to having two Bills in one year. It was true they had a second Bill last year, but—
* THE CHAIRMANsaid that question hardly arose on this Resolution, which clearly would not enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in any Bill but the Finance Bill. The time to raise the question of the undesirability of bringing in a Customs and Excise Bill in addition to the Finance Bill would be when the former was brought in.
§ MR. LOUGHhoped that, if there was any intention of bringing in such a Bill this year, the measure would be introduced at an earlier period than was the case last session, when a Bill was passed, under protest, in the middle of the last night of the session.
§ MR. BUCHANANwas understood to say that the object of this Resolution was to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make certain alterations in the present system for which Resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means were unnecessary. If hon. Members desired to discuss those changes in Committee of Ways and Means, now was their opportunity for doing so. Ho was not aware that any such changes had been adumbrated or suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, but he thought the Committee ought to reserve their right of discussing the proposals, if necessary, on a subsequent occasion.
§ * MR. MCCRAEremarked that in his Budget speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when dealing with the National Debt, placed the amount of the contribution to the Sinking Fund at £5,149,000, whereas the estimate given by his predecessor last year was £6,600,000. In reply to a Question recently the right hon. Gentleman had named yet another figure. It would probably save a considerable discussion on the Finance Bill if the right hon. Gentleman could now make it clear how-much the contribution to the Sinking Fund in the year just closed really was.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that last week he had to give the Committee a great Dumber of figures, and he could not trust his memory to repeat. them without notice. It was to the advantage of the Committee that whatever he stated should be accurate; therefore he hoped they would excuse his answering off-hand. He would look the matter up for the hon. Member.
§ MR. McKENNAsaid that in his Budget speech the right hon. Gentleman said the amount under the fixed debt charge devoted to the payment of debt was £5.149,000, but since then, in reply to the hon. Member for Lynn Regis, he had put the amount at something over £6,000,000. Doubtless the two statements could be reconciled, but, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not be cross-examined on the Question Paper, he pressed the right hon. Gentleman to explain from memory, if possible, how the discrepancy arose.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid there would be plenty of opportunities for referring to this matter. If the hon. Member for Edinburgh placed a Question on the Paper he would endeavour to explain the matter, but it was not desirable that he should give the figures from memory.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESpointed out that it had been ruled over and over again that Questions referring to former debates in this House could not be placed on the Paper. Was there any way by which they could get round that Rule?
§ Resolved, That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt, Customs, and Inland Revenue.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again to-morrow.