HC Deb 18 April 1904 vol 133 cc451-72

Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [18th April], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Which Amendment was— To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, 'in the opinion of this House, the system of Primary Education in Ireland is fundamentally defective, and has proved injurious in it's operation.'"—(Mr. Nannetti.)

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."


continuing, said on reading Mr. Dale's Report he found on page 44 several footnotes composed of extracts taken from letterssent to Mr. Dale by various inspectors of schools in Ireland, and Mr. Dale dwelt on and seemed to agree with the opinion those letters expressed. For instance, Mr. Lebane, of the Galway circuit, wrote— There is, I regret to state, little local interest taken by the general public in the state and efficiency of the schools. Except in rare cases, when some real or imaginary grievance needs inquiry, no member of the general body of the people seems to think that the condition or state of efficiency of the school is a matter that concerns him. He leaves the school, with all that pertains to it, to be dealt with by teacher, manager, and inspector. One inference only could be drawn from such statements, namely that the Irish parent took absolutely no interest in educational matters, did nothing to promote the best interests of his child, and that Ireland had lest all love for learning. It was unnecessary to delve into ancient history to disprove and remove so unfair and so unjust an accusation for the whole history of Ireland was bound up with the love of the people for the best and highest education possible; and just as in the olden days eminent scholars went from the shores of Erin to carry light and learning into distant lands, so to-day the Irish race had an inextinguishable love of knowledge and science—so much so that the Irish parent never counted the cost or the sacrifice where the interest of education was concerned. It must not be forgotten that Ireland had not had the free exercise of her will in these any more than in other matters, that her every impulse had been thwarted by England, and that she had been fettered and hampered as no other race had ever been. In the last fifty years, during periods of distress, famine, persecution and coercion, the Irish nation had had to make a supreme struggle, with the life-blood drawn from her by a cruel and arrogant aristocracy who took everything and gave nothing, to keep alive the spark of national life. Ireland had to provide herself with churches, schools, hospitals, and all the requirements of a Christian people and of modern civilisation. Let the fair student of facts look Ireland in the face and he would have to admit that never was a more heroic struggle for existence undertaken, or a more signal victory won over an unreasonable and unreasoning oppressor. There was one eminently satisfactory note running through Mr. Dale's Report, and it was this, that he could not find language sufficiently enthusiastic to speak of the convent schools of Ireland. He proclaimed their efficiency in spite of the little help they received from the State. The convent schools were the work of the people; they were built with the money provided by the people—and still they were told that the Irish people took no interest in educational matters. He knew the Irishman, and he made bold to say that whether at home or abroad in those distant lands to which he had been driven by the tyrannical laws imposed by England, no man surpassed him in his efforts to promote education, or in the sacrifices he bore for so sacred a cause, or in his desire to see his children—in the matter of intellectual equipment—equal to the best. It he did not succeed, it was because the State stood in the way and hindered rather than helped in the necessary work.

Let them take the case of Galway. With sorrow he was forced to admit that the district in which his constituency lay was one of the poorest in Ireland, much, alas, of its ancient prosperity and splendour having disappeared. Despite this, what did they find? Thanks TO the zeal of the venerable prelate at the head of the diocese, to the priests and people as well as to the religions conducting the institutions, they found Brothers' schools and convent schools full of life, while State schools close by were dying and decaying. Owing its origin to the generosity of the people, and the energy of the Jesuit fathers, they would find a college for the young, surpassed by few, imparting the best possible education to hundreds of the Galway youths. What help had the State ever given to this institution or did it give now? Not one penny; while only a few yards away from this bright lively institution were the model school and Queen's College—deathlike in the atmosphere around them, the flickering spark of life kept burning by the thousands of pounds slobbered on them annually by the State. This was a most important matter. They were told nothing more could be done for those schools, and no improvement could be made; they already cost too much. As to this Mr. Dale's Report said— 23. The net expenditure incurred in maintaining the model schools out of the National Education Vote (excluding the expenditure by the Board of Works on repairs, etc.) amounted, in 1902, to £30,732 10s. 5d, the cost to the State of each pupil in average attendance being thus over £4. 10s. In individual cases the cost far exceeds this. The cost of the model school at Athy in 1992 was over £7 per head; while at Clonmel, Enniscorthy, Kilkenny, and Water-ford, it was over £6. 24. The cost of the model schools is thus far higher than that of the ordinary national Irish schools or the convent schools, which only cost the State from £1 5s. to £2 10s. per head. The Irish representatives had been asked for suggestions; he would venture to offer one as a remedy for this state of things. Hand over the mode! school to those who could make use of it; transfer the control so that the door might open to Catholic children; sell it, make it useful and let soma return be secured for the money spent upon it. There were those in Galway who could turn it into a useful institution. That was not all. A short time ago, want was felt for a boarding school for girls in Galway City and appeal made for support, which was so eagerly responded to that in a short time an elegant building was erected. The Dominicans stepped in and took possession and prepared it for the reception of the pupils, but the State, instead of assisting, taxed it so highly that the Dominicans could hardly meet the expense. To him, coming from the Province of Quebec, Canada, where such a tax would not have been tolerated for an instant, where the State was so generous in the matter of exemptions and subventions relating to education, this tax appeared an odious outrage. But it was tints that things were done in Ireland, always against the spirit, the wish, and interest of the people. It was thus that the art of government of a people was understood and practised. He was perhaps the most moderate among his fellow Nationalists, brought up as he had been under a better form of government and fairer institutions. He could not help saying, however, that Ireland had no Government; for the three gentlemen sitting in this House practically represented nobody in Ireland; they were the gaolers of Ireland, the turnkeys of the vast prison into which Ireland had been converted.

Let it not be said that the Irish people took no interest in the cause of education. They had erected colleges everywhere. They had convents such as few lands possessed, and ordinary schools. He was not prepared to admit that by the people generally no interest was taken in the ordinary national schools. They had confidence in the manager who was their trusted friend and in the teacher. But it was hardly to be expected that poor parents, condemned to work in England in order to obtain money to pay their way, could take so much interest as others. Whose was the responsibility? What did this Parliament give? Who built the schools? Again he asked—Where did the responsibility rest? On this Parliament, the majority of whom did not give one fig for Ireland; upon the abominable system of laws devised to make the country poor and to keep it poor; upon the system which never wanted, and never was intended, to have the children of Irishmen educated. While Parliament could not give too much money to already richly endowed Universities which happened to be the pets of this Parliament, Ireland could have no University acceptable to the majority of the people. While the State most liberally helped education in every way in this country, it starved Ireland in this important matter, and he held that the cause of primary education in Ireland should receive more encouragement and more generous support than was now extended by the State. The taxes which England imposed upon Ireland were expended upon works bringing no benefit to her. They had no quarrel with any country in the world—except with England—and they could well do without an Army and a Navy. They would have no quarrel with this country if they were loft to manage their own affairs. Their money, Irish money, was not spent for Irish purposes. Here was the chance of a reform and of a mighty reform. Let the State seriously undertake to help their schools, help in the matter of building and equipment, and do such work as the State was supposed to do. The manager, the teacher, and the people understood their obligations, and, as at all times, would carry them out. For his part he had little hope for genuine reform in this matter until the right of the Irish people to the government of their own country should have been admitted, and until the only Parliament competent to deal with such matters should have been established—the Parliament of Ireland.


said he had only found during the whole course of the debate two speakers who had seemed to speak their minds and speak really to the question. One was the hon. and learned Member for Water-ford, who had plainly told the House that the whole question was wrapped up in the denominational question and that is would never be settled until that was taken into account. A great deal had been said about popular control, but very little as to the difficulties in the way of popular control. There was a large body of opinion in Ireland who would have nothing else but denominational schools and that was the question the Chief Secretary had to face. The whole question was that the teachers must be of the same religion as the children, and there was a very large section of the people of Ireland which would object to any system which did not permit that. It had been suggested that the present system should be done away with, but though it might not be a good system it was a much better system than many of those which had been mentioned. Ireland would not submit to the will of Parliament if it could help it and it would be absurd to suppose the Catholics of Ireland would ask for a system which would necessitate the surrender of the whole of the management, and give the whole, control of education in Ireland to this House. He had no objection to secular schools provided the various denominations had their own schools also. Then came the more insidious system of local control; there was a certain portion of the people who might adopt that system, but on the part of many, who hoped to keep out of Ireland local control of any kind, there was a very great objection to that. He had been told on the best authority that the Catholic clergy in Ireland not only took the greatest interest in ordinary education but also in technical education. He did not admire the present system, but he thought it was at any rate infinitely better than any of those which had been suggested. The Chief Secretary had said that there was one hopeful germ and one glimpse of light in Irish education, and that was technical education. He agreed that the technical education committees as a rule had done well and had shown themselves capable of managing their own affairs. There had, however, been a little friction occasionally with the Department which did not leave those committees undisputed power. He thought hon. Members would agree that neither agriculture nor the development of technical education lent itself very much to a denominational system, but when they came to the teaching of the children they were bound to have some differences. Probably the Chief Secretary thought the system had worked well because the elected bodies had got the management of the system, although the Government had a certain amount of control. It was possible that the Chief Secretary might be right in saying that this was a hopeful germ, but he thought that under the present system it would be a long time before that germ was fully developed. In this debate the question of religion had been suppressed because it. was a rather awkward subject.

With regard to the money, he thought it was a very awkward time to discuss this question upon the night before the Budget. The Chief Secretary had admitted that he would like to improve the sanitary condition of the schools, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that whitewashing was not the principal reform that was wanted. The system of heating the schools by fires was most primitive, because the children had to carry the turf to school. Now those children were beginning to dress a little better and naturally they did not (are about carrying turf to school. Ireland was a wet country, and an improved system of heating the schools was required. It had been said that in some districts there were too many schools and that a considerable sum of money was wasted in that way. He agreed that the money spent on some 01 the Queen's Colleges was money wasted, especially in Galway and Cork, where the whole system was out of gear. In Galway and Cork they had in the Queen's Colleges beautiful buildings and good professors, but the population there would have very little to do with them. In those centres there was a very strong objection to any colleges with no religious teaching, and the colleges of Galway and Cork were situated in the centre of the county which had been celebrated for pride, poverty, and devotion. If the Queen's Colleges in Galway and Cork were conducted in a Catholic atmosphere they would have a very large college, whereas now they were practically being conducted without many students. The model schools were very good where they were used for educational purposes, but, where they were used to fight the Catholics they were a waste of public funds. The Chief Secretary was nursing the Development Grant, and he agreed that it was a good thing to have a prudent Chief Secretary. He thought, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was pushing things too far. The Chief Secretary had tried to settle a great many questions, and he hoped that before he left office he would be able to give the teachers of Ireland nearly as much as they got in England and Scotland, that they would be able to have the schools decently warmed and with better sanitary arrangements, even if the Chief Secretary gave a little trouble to his colleagues in the Cabinet.

MR. SLOAN (Belfast. S.)

said he took part in the debate for two reasons. The first was because he wished to associate himself, in the complaints made in regard to primary education in Ireland, with the Members opposite. The second was because he wished to dissociate himself with hon. Members opposite when they said it was one of the great necessities for Home Rule. The Chief Secretary had given them very little hope this session, if any at all. He said a few weeks ago in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, who said he stood there to ask for Home Rule, that he stood there to refuse it. But he could not see why all Irishmen, representing all parts, could not unite in demanding for Ireland something that was reasonable and necessary without bringing in a lot of questions which did not concern the issue. The speech of the hon. Member for North Galway went straight to the root of the question. The hon. Member distinctly stated without reservation that the Roman Catholics in the South and West of Ireland would not have anything less than denominational education. That denominational education they felt a scruple about giving to the children of the North of Ireland. The hon. Member for South Tyrone, who had gone to the other side of the House to have a look at him, made a statement in the course of the debate which caused him to turn round and look very sternly at him. For a long time, he said, he had been carried away on the waves because of a belief that what was necessary for Ireland was not denominational education, and he found it was absolutely essential for him to depart from the views which he originally held.


What I said was that I entered this House a resolute adherent of secular education, believing that it was the duty of Parliament to provide secular education and the Church would provide religious education. I said I had been swept away. First of all England paid for Roman Catholic education in England, and Scotland for Roman Catholic education in Scotland. It was possible for the Irish child in England and Scotland—Protestant countries—to receive religious education at the expense of the State, and impossible for them to receive it in their own country.


said the statement made by the hon. Member did not alter his opinion of what he had said. The North of Ireland had as much right to the attention and respect of the House as any other part of the country. No man with any idea of how a child should be taught could go to a national school in any part of Ireland without deploring the conditions under which that child had to be educated. Not only did the Chief Secretary admit that the sanitary conditions of the schools were unsatisfactory, as well as the average attendance which was necessary in order to get an assistant teacher, but the very fact that these children were victims of a foul atmosphere was a question which ought to engage the attention of any Government more speedily than it had engaged the attention of the present one The Development Grant Fund, the equivalent of which was allotted to England and Scotland, ought, without any quibbling, to be devoted to primary education in Ireland, not kept for every change that took place in the, mind of some company like the Dingle Railway Company when it wanted to claim £10,000 or £:£0,000. The teachers had a great grievance. They had been alluded to by the hon. Member who seconded this Motion, who, he understood, was an expert upon the injustices which teachers suffered under. Out of a salary of about £50 or £60 a year those teachers had sometimes to provide necessities for the schools of which they were the principals, and that was not a state of things to encourage a man to do his work in a satisfactory manner. The residue grant which had been spoken of was never paid until about four months after it was due. He had often questioned the Chief Secretary about this grant, and his reply was that it could not be paid until the 31st March. After that they heard at the Congress of the National School Teachers, held in Belfast in the Queen's College, that when they went down to the post office there was no money there for their pay.

He was not going to say very much regarding denominational education or the ever-increasing demand for Home Rule for Ireland. It was sufficient for him to say that he had always tried to do his part, as a humble individual to associate himself with every reform which he thought and believed was for the good of Ireland, at the same time maintaining his own principles. Not only had they to consider Ireland upon this question, but there was also a large section of English Protestants who had to be considered upon a subject which might arouse a great deal of hostility in the future. Could they not agree upon the common platform of primary education? Had they descended so low that they could not join hands to help the Roman Catholic and the Protestant child to get a better education, more sanitary schools, and to place the teachers on a better footing? Could not secondary and technical education go up by leaps and bounds without this tremendous canker worm eating the vitals out of every debate in this House? He thought the Chief Secretary's reply had a disappointing tone about it, because another session of Parliament would have to pass before he could introduce a Bill dealing with this question. He had concluded from the debate that it was the intense desire of the Government to grapple with this great question, to revolutionise the present system of education in Ireland, and, if they got the opportunity, to bring about a reform which he hoped would meet with the acceptance of all hon. Gentlemen opposite. Therefore he had much pleasure in identifying himself with the demand made upon the Government.

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

said that for twenty years he had full of despair, watched the fortunes of the Irish primary schools. It was a pathetic thing that Ireland, the home of learning in the dark ages, should have sunk into its present position. The speech of the Chief Secretary was the most hopeless to which he had listened since he had been a Member of Parliament. The Reports of the Government inspectors indicated a condition of things with respect to school buildings which should not be allowed any longer to continue. With these Reports before him, what was the answer of the Chief Secretary The answer was that it would take £40,000 to put matters straight. Money had been found for things less urgent, and the money must be found for matters of this sort. The fit of economy had come rather late in regard to this Government. It would have been well for the country if it had come when they were squandering hundreds of thousands of pounds. The Chief Secretary said that the Irish teacher could be dismissed by one manager, and he asked, so long as that was the case, what was the use of improving his position. Was that a fair excuse why nothing could be done?


said the hon. Member had misunderstood what he stated.


said something ought to be done at once in regard to this matter. Many Irish teachers were personal friends of his own, and he wondered at the marvels they had achieved in the face of heart-breaking difficulties. According to Mr. Dale, the minor repairs of the schools in the country districts were often done by the teacher. The Chief Secretary seemed cordially to agree with Mr. Dale in his statement that the most vital defect in Irish education was the lack of any local interest in the conduct of the schools except among the clergy. Mr. Dale went on to suggest the creation of local authorities and the throwing of a larger financial burden than the present on the locality. Members of this House could probe the reason for the indifference of Irish parents to education in a way which would not become a public official like the author of this Report. The reason was that the system was superimposed upon them from the outside. It was not in harmony with popular sentiment, and the English Government, whether Tory or Liberal, had to learn the lesson that an educational system which might be suitable to England, Wales, or Scotland was not necessarily suitable to Ireland, and, if he might say so with great respect, his compatriots from Ireland had to learn that the converse also was true. The Government had recognised that in dealing with Scotland. A Bill had been introduced which conceded to Scotland every proposition which had been denounced from the Treasury Bench when asked for England and Wales. The Irish race had wit and genius in which there was a gold mine. The Government should cultivate that great national asset to the utmost as being the cheapest and most lasting security for the national prosperity and well-being.

* MR. LUNDON (Limerick, E.)

said he had been a teacher for forty years, and he knew something about the subject before the Committee. His belief was that the Irish national system had been going down since he was a young lad to the present hour. Some people might say that he was what was called in the Latin language laudator temporis acti, but he could give reasons for stating that in some respects education in Ireland was better in former times than at present. For the first twenty years during which he was a teacher he had no difficulty in getting boys who had a knowledge of algebra, geometry, mensuration, and trigonometry, but in the later period of his professional work such boys could not be had from the national schools. He had also had some experience as a teacher in America, and he could state that the salaries paid to teachers in Ireland did not compare favourably with those paid in that country. He condemned the present system which required an average attendance of sixty before a school was entitled to a second teacher, pointing out that at certain seasons of the year, when work could be obtained in the fields, it was difficult to get the children to attend. The people of England did not know how things stood in Ireland. There was a class of people in the Augean stables called Dublin Castle who were no better than bloodsuckers or vampires. As to the staffing of the schools he would say that they required a great many more teachers if they were to have efficient teaching. It was pitiful to see the children as they went to school in the morning. Their condition was almost as bad as that of barbarians in Timbuctoo.

Certain promises had been held out by the Chief Secretary; but they had not to deal with that right hon. Gentleman alone. There was the dark horse behind him, and they all knew that it was hard to break an old horse off his trot. He did not say that in any contemptuous way, but only repeated it as a common saying in Ireland. He denied the statement made by Dr. Starkie that there was a lack of capability or want of experience among the clerical managers of National Schools in Ireland. He had had more than forty years experience, and he knew that there were hundreds of men of great ability who were interested in all that concerned education and schools. Some of the ablest linguists and logicians in the country had been trained in the Catholic Colleges of Ireland in Maynooth and the various diocesan Colleges. He might instance the present Archbishop of Dublin, whose great work on Theology, the De Ecclesia, could compare favourably with the writings of Gury or Perroni. It was easy to talk of the difficulty of discovering a remedy; but the remedy lay, as the hon. Member for Scotland Division had said, in Home Rule. If they ruled themselves, they would have a body responsible to the people to manage their education—a body composed of Bishops, priests, and laymen among whom there would be no bigotry. He hoped that the Government, whether of to-day, or the next day, would take up the case of Irish education, which was at present in a wretched state. There had been a falling off in national schools for a considerable time. When he was a pupil there were as many boys in the school in which he was taught who had a knowledge of trigonometry as there were now in the whole of the National Schools of all Ireland. He hoped that the Motion before the House, and the discussion upon it, would have some effect, and that the Chief Secretary would endeavour to bring round his colleagues to his view as to the necessity of an immediate improvement of the educational system of Ireland.

MR. BOLAND (Kerry, S.)

said that this debate had been looked forward to all over Ireland with great interest, and he was sure that there would be disappointment with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary when it came to be, read. It was certainly expected that some indication would have been given as to what was going to be done in regard to the National Education Board. That board had not enabled the people of Ireland to obtain the education they wanted; and in no sense could it be called a National Board, because the education given under their system was anything but national—it was anti-national. That was shown by their attitude in regard to the teaching of the Irish language. After the Government defeat on the subject five weeks ago, he certainly expected that the Chief Secretary would have told them to-night what was to be done in regard to the teaching of the Irish language in the national schools; but all that they were informed was that the National Board had not yet made up its mind with reference to that important subject. He hoped that the Chief Secretary would not allow the anti-national line in regard to the Irish language, taken up by the board, to be continued. A few weeks ago he referred to the system of teaching music in the national schools, and urged that a proper system of teaching music should be based upon the folk-songs of the people. Since then a small school-book had been put into his hands, and he was sorry to see only ten folk-songs in their national language in the collection. He maintained that it was the duty of the National Hoard to make a complete collection of national folk-songs for use in schools.

MR. WOLFF (Belfast, E.)

said he had seldom listened to a debate in which there had been such unanimity of abuse as in the case of the National Education Board. Every hon. Member who had spoken declared that that board was the cause of the backward state of education in Ireland, and the strongest condemnation of the board had come from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary himself.


said he had devoted about ten minutes of his speech to showing what excellent work the board had done.


said that the board might have had excellent intentions, no doubt, but the result had not been very great. Everybody knew that primary education in Ireland was miles behind that of England and Scotland, and there was no chance of an alteration being made unless the system was altogether changed. The Chief Secretary had said that there was no money, but he agreed with the hon. Member for Camberwell that that was no excuse whatever. If the state of the primary schools was such as Mr. Dale had shown it to be, then the people of Scotland and England would be the very first to say that the money must be found to remedy the existing state of affairs. His own belief was that a child ought to be able to go from the meanest cottage in the land to a primary school, then to an intermediate school, next to pass to a secondary school, and finally to the University without a single penny of expense. That was his ideal, and it had been carried out in Germany and America; but in the meantime they must tackle primary education in an efficient manner. That could not be done until they had another kind of Education Board for Ireland. He was disappointed more than he could say at the speech of the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman might have given the House some idea of what he intended to do. He would, however, take the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he intended to do something, and in the hope and expectation of that he should support the Government in this matter.

MR. FIELD (Dublin, St. Patrick)

said he would not go into the details of the complaints they had to make against the present system of education in Ireland. Irish education was in such a chaotic condition that it was admitted on all hands that it required amendment, and yet the right hon. Gentleman who was charged with the duty of governing Ireland in educational matters had just told the House that he had not quite made up his mind as to the necessity of carrying out this educational reform this session. At such a late hour he was going to detain the House only to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that in every country in the world at the present moment education was regarded as the most important factor of national progress. Hon. Members knew what was being done in this matter in Germany, France, Switzerland, and every other Continental country. Those who had read the Moseley Education Committee's Report would be able to contrast what was put forward there with the attitude taken up by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to Ireland, and they could compare his policy with what had been done in America. In America £60,000,000 a year was devoted to education from the State resources, and local contributions were made most liberally. American millionaires also devoted a large amount of their spare money to the purpose; of education; but when they pleaded the cause of education for Ireland the right hon. Gentleman told them that he had no time this session to consider it, and no money to devote to such a purpose. He considered that that was a very unsatisfactory state of things, and that the subject was deserving of more careful consideration than it appeared to have received at the hands of the Government.




said the right hon. Gentleman had his opinion on this matter, and he had his, and after the report of this debate had appeared in the papers he would see who was right. It was the duty of the Government which took upon itself the function of governing Ireland to do it in a proper manner according to the needs and exigencies of the time. Education was a most important matter for any country, for the real progress of a country depended upon its education. They had been told by the Chief Secretary that they must wait. He would not go at length into all the details of the defects of Irish education, but he would ask what was the Government for? What were Ministers paid for? The function of a Government was to unravel difficulties and to provide

remedies for them in the country they governed, and if they were not capable of carrying out those duties they ought to permit other men to take on those responsibilities. He was convinced that the result of this debate would be received with the greatest possible disappointment in Ireland. It was the duty of the Government to try to solve this problem. He agreed that the different forms of education ought to be coordinated the one with the other, and that they could not approach it in a piecemeal fashion. He urged upon the Government the immediate necessity of reconsidering this question, which was one of the most pressing of Irish grievances. All Irish representatives were agreed as to the absolute importance of primary education in Ireland. He hoped that some attempt would be made to formulate a sensible coordinated plan to put an end to the present chaotic condition of education in Ireland.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 172; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 82.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Butcher, John George Doughty, George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Duke. Henry Edward
Arkwright, John Stanhope; Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Dyke Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Chapman, Edward Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Churchill, Winston Spencer Faber, George Denison (York
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Give Captain Percy A. Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Coates, Edward Feetham Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Finch, Rt. Hon. George. H
Balcarres, Lord. Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. E. Fison, Frederick William
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Compton, Ford Alwyne Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Baltfour, Kenneth R. (Christch, Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Forster, Henry William
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Galloway, William Johnson
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cross, Alexander(Glasgow) Gardner, Ernest
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)
Bignold, Arthur Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Gordon, Maj Evans-(TrH'mlets
Bigwood, James Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gore, Hn G.E.C. Ormsby-(Salop
Bond, Edward Davenport, William Bromley Graham, Henry Robert
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Dickinson, Robert Edmond Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dickson, Charles Scott Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Ball William James, Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Grenfell, William Henry
Gretton, John M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Malcolm, Ian Sinclair Louis (Romford)
Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Martin, Richard Biddnlph Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'tn Sloan, Thomas Henry
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Harris, Dr. Fredk, R. (Dulwich) Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyneside
Haslet, Sir James Horner Milvain, Thomas Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hay, Hon. Claude George Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Spear, John Ward
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)
Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. Morgan, David, J. (Walthamstow Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Heaton, John Henniker Morton, Arthur H. Aylrmer Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart
Helder, Augustus Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Stirling-Maxwell. Sir John M.
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hickman, Sir Alfred Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hogg, Lindsay Myers, William Henry Taylor, Austen (East Toxteth)
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Newdegate, Francis A. N. Thornton, Percy M.
Hoult, Joseph Parker, Sir Gilbert Tollemache, Henry James
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington Tominson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Percy, Earl Tuff, Charles
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pier point, Robert Tuke, Sir John Batty
Keswick, William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Valentia, Viscount
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Plummer, Walter R. Walker, Col. William Hall
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R Pretyman, Ernest George Warde, Colonel C E.
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Whiteley, H. (Ashton and. Lyne
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Randles, John S. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Rasch, Sir. Frederick Carne Wilson-Todd. Sir W. H. (Yorks.)
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Reid, James (Greenock) Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Ridley, Hon, M. W. (Stalybridge Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Wylie, Alexander
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Round, Rt. Hon. James Wyndham-Quin, Col W. H.
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Royds, Clement Molyneux
Macdona, John Cumming Rutherford, John (Lancashire) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
M'Calmont, Colonel James Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Ambrose, Robert Freeman-Thomas. Captain F. M'Kean, John
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Gladslone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Black, Alexander William Gray, Ernest (West Ham) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin
Blake, Edward Griffith, Ellis J. Mansfield, Horace Rendall.
Boland, John Hammond, John Mooney, John J.
Brigg, John Harrington, Timothy Murphy, John
Burke, E Haviland Harwood, George Nannetti, Joseph P.
Caldwell, James Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Cameron, Robert Helme, Norval Watson Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)
Causton, Richard Knight Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cawley, Frederick Horniman, Frederick John O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Clancy, John Joseph Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Crean, Eugene Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Cremer, William Randal Jordan, Jeremiah O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Cullinan, J. Joyce, Michael O'Malley, William
Dalziel, James Henry Kilbride, Denis O'Mara, James
Delany, William Langley, Batty O'Shee, James John
Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Paulton, James Mellor
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Layland-Barratt, Francis Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Dobbie, Joseph Leamy, Edmund Power, Patrick Joseph
Doogan, P. C. Leigh, Sir Joseph Trice, Robert John
Duncan, J. Hastings Leng, Sir John Reddy, M.
Edwards, Frank Levy, Maurice Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Emmott, Alfred Lundon, W. Redmond, William (Clare)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rigg, Richard
Fenwick, Charles MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Field, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Russell, T. W.
Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Crae, George Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitchapel) Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Schwann, Charles E. Stevenson, Francis S. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Shackleton, David James Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Sullivan, Donal Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R)
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Young, Samuel
Sheehy, David Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Shipman, Dr. John G. Ure, Alexander TELLERS FOR THK NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Slack, John Bamford Weir, James Galloway
Soares, Ernest J. White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Motion made, and Question. "That this House do now adjourn"[Sir A. Acland-Hood) put, and agreed to.

Main Question again proposed.

* MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)

called attention to the congestion in certain areas in the Highland crofting counties; and urged that more adequate arrangements should be made by the Congested Dis ricts Board for the settlement of the people on the land. The conditions of life in the Island of Lewis were, he said, becoming worse every year. No land had been secured, and nothing was being done. Access to the land was the one thing needful. The congestion was greater than ever, and the number of houses in which the cattle and occupants were separated merely by a handrail or low partition had not decreased. The people of this country had no idea of the terrible conditions under which people in the Island of Lewis had to live, and he considered that the Government were to blame for not taking action. I was the duty of the Congested Districts Board to take steps to alter this state of things. The farms should be broken up and arrangements should be made with the proprietor of the island, who, he believed, was prepared to come to terms. He had been unable to get information from the Scottish Office as to whether any negotiations were in progress. When he asked what steps were being taken, he was advised to wait. Well, he had done so for a good many years, and, so far as he could ascertain, the authorities were still doing nothing. Why did not the Congested Districts Board make an effort to secure some of these farms? Why did they not make arrangements for migration schemes? It was very painful for him to have to raise this question time after time. The people in the Highlands wanted access to the land in order that they might earn their living from it, and they ought not to be penned up as they were in abominable and insanitary huts. Deer forests were being extended throughout the Western Highlands. Whenever the lease of a farm ran out, the farm was converted into a deer forest, and thus the chances of the people of securing holdings were daily being minimised. Yet the Congested Districts Board sat with folded arms and did nothing! Let them remember that there were no industries in that part of the country—there were no mills and no factories, and the fishing industry had been ruined by illegal trawling, which had been carried on to an alarming extent all around the coasts. The poverty of the people was most distressing. Let hon. Members go and see for themselves, and, if they did that, he was convinced that they would soon force the Congested Districts Board to take action.

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