HC Deb 31 March 1903 vol 120 cc735-9

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. HENRY HOBHOUSE in the Chair.]

Clause 1,

SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)

said he did not propose to divide the Committee, but he wished to state that he was one of those who did not believe in the reconstitution of the Naval Volunteers. A most competent Committee had inquired into the subject, and their recommendation was one which, of course, would carry the greatest possible weight. He did not believe in the applicability of the Volunteer principle to service in the Fleet, and the kind of service to be required should be made known. There were certain very exceptional cases where Volunteers might be used with advantage for the Fleet. One case was that of Jersey, where there was ground for the existence of a limited Volunteer force of this kind. Language had been used in the Press, and perhaps by some hon. Members on a former stage of this Bill, to the effect that they might hope for a very large body of Volunteers to serve in the Fleet in time of war, but he thought that was an idle anticipation.

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.

Clause 4,


said this was the short service clause, and was the most important new departure made in connection with the Navy in modern times. It introduced a principle which he approved, but the application of which had hitherto been resisted at the Admiralty. The Committee ought to know how far it was intended to apply it now.


said he was glad that the principle was approved by he right hon. Baronet. The question of the number of short service men to be employed would not arise for many years. It must be a long time before any substantial proportion of the crews could be made up of these men. He really did not think it was necessary to go beyond the present intention of the Admiralty, which was to take a fourth of the ordinary seamen and A. B.s, and one-sixth trained men of the stokers, exclusive of petty officers, from this source. These men would not be in any sense Volunteers, because they would have five years experience of the sea.

Clauses 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.

MR. CALDWELL moved the following new clause— All regulations made in pursuance of this Act shall be laid before Parliament as soon as practicable after they are made, if Parliament be then sitting, and, if Parliament be not sitting, as soon as practicable after the beginning of the next session of Parliament. He supposed there would be no objection to this clause. What he proposed was in accordance with the practice of Parliament in all cases where the ordinary law was departed from. Similar provision was made in the Militia Act, the Army Act, and the Naval Act.


declined to accept the clause. The precedents which the hon. Member had quoted were not applicable to the present case. There was no question in the Bill of giving powers to the Secretary of State to modify existing Acts of Parliament. This was new legislation, and the whole of the facts would come before the House in the ordinary way.


said he was a strong supporter of the Admiralty, but he confessed he was not persuaded by the arguments of the hon. Gentleman at the present time. The short service provisions would be governed by

Admiralty regulations, and he saw no reason for opposing the clause.


said that what Parliament was asked to do was to give the Admiralty carte blanche. They were asked to empower the Admiralty to create a new force, and to make whatever regulations they thought fit. Obviously, the regulations made in pursuance of the Act ought to be placed before Parliament so that they might know what was being done.


said that the hon. Gentleman made a mistake. There was no such obligation in regard to the Naval Volunteers, and there was no such obligation in regard to the Naval Reserve.


said he wished again to impress on the hon. Gentleman that this clause had nothing to do with the Naval Volunteers. The case for the proposed new Clause rested on what was contained in Clause 4 of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."

Committee divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 190. (Division List, No. 48.)

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Jacoby, James Alfred Shipman, Dr. John G.
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) Joicey, Sir James Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Asher, Alexander Kearley, Hudson E. Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Labouchere, Henry Soares, Ernest J.
Bell, Richard Layland-Barratt, Francis Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants
Brigg, John Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Stevenson, Francis S.
Broadhurst, Henry Leng, Sir John Strachey, Sir Edward
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) Levy, Maurice Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)
Burns, John Lewis, John Herbert Tennant, Harold John
Burt, Thomas Lloyd-George, David Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Cawley, Frederick Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)
Crooks, William Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Dalziel, James Henry Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Toulmin, George
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Durham) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Dunn, Sir William Partington, Oswald Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) Paulton, James Mellor White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Perks, Robert William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Rea, Russell Williams, O. (Merioneth)
Grant, Corrie Redmond, William (Clare) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Yoxhall, James Henry
Hayter, Rt. Hon Sir Arthur D. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Holland, Sir William Henry Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland) Mr. Caldwell and Mr. Lough.
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Myers, William Henry
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Flannery, Sir Fortescue Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden Flower, Ernest Nicol, Donald Ninian
Anson, Sir William Reynell Forster, Henry William O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Arkwright, John Stanhope Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fyler, John Arthur Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley
Arrol, Sir William Galloway, William Johnson Percy, Earl
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Gardner, Ernest Pierpoint, Robert
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Garfit, William Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Austin, Sir John Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Pretyman, Ernest George
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gordan, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn Purvis, Robert
Bain Colonel James Robert Gore, Hn. G R C. Ormsby- (Salop Pym, C. Guy
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey Goulding, Edward Alfred Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hain, Edward Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Hambro, Charles Eric Robinson, Brooke
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Hamilton, Rt. Hn Ld. G. (Midx Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hamilton, Marg. of (Londondy Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Bignold, Arthur Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bigwood, James Hare, Thomas Leigh Round, Rt. Hon. James
Blundell, Colonel Henry Harris, Frederick Leverton Russell, T. W.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hay, Hon. Claude George Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow Heath, Arthur H. (Hantey) Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ. Heath, James (Stafford, N. W. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cavendish, V C W (Derbysh.) Hoare, Sir Samuel Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hogg, Lindsay Sloan, Thomas Henry
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm Hope, J. F. (Sheff, B'tside) Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Chapman, Edward Hoult, Joseph Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hudson, George Bickersteth Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Kimber, Henry Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Knowles, Lees Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Compton, Lord Alwyne Laurie, Lieut.-General Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Stone, Sir Benjamin
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monm'th) Sturt, Hn. Humphry Napier
Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cranborne, Lord Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Llewellyn, Evan Henry Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower)
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Lookwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Tollemache, Henry James
Crossley, Sir Savile Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.
Dalkeith, Earl of Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Tuke, Sir John Batty
Davenport, William Bromley Macdona, John Cumming Valentia, Viscount
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Walker, Col. William Hall
Denny, Colonel M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Dickson, Charles Scott Malcolm, Ian Wanklyn, James Leslie
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Manners, Lord Cecil Webb, Col. William George
Douglas Rt. Hon. A. Akers Markham, Arthur Basil Whiteley, H. A. Ashton-und-Lyne
Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Duke, Henry Edward Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart Milvain, Thomas Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Mitchell, William (Burnley) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Faber, George Denison (York) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B Stuart
Fardell, Sir T. George Morrell, George Herbert Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r Mount, William Arthur
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Muntz, Sir Philip A. Sir Alexander Acland-
Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Bill read a second time, and committed.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.