§ Order for Second Reading read.
1538§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
§ MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.)in moving the rejection of this Bill said Ireland was already in possession of 300 railway directors, or one director for every ten miles of railway, and as a result she had the worst managed rail ways in the world. The promoters of this Bill now proposed that as the local directors had made such a hash of affairs, they should import from England a number of intelligent foreigners, who knew nothing of the country or the people, in order to make matters if possible worse. The objections to the Bill were numerous, and he thought sufficiently strong to justify the House in rejecting it altogether. In the first place, its passage would very seriously impede any efforts which might lie made to deal thoroughly with the scandal of railway mismanagement. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had admitted the gravity of the evil and had pledged himself to deal with the evil as soon as the land question was settled, and if an English Company was allowed by this Bill to get a firm grasp on any Irish system, it would greatly impede the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman in dealing with the question. Irrespective of the influence which the Midland Railway Company was able to exercise in this House, they had a financial capital of one-tenth of all the Railway Stock in the United Kingdom, and the fact had only to be stated to show how enormously any attempt at reform would be impeded. It had been urged that the railway systems of Ireland were worked so badly that it would pass the wit of even Midland directors to introduce anything worse, and with that view ho largely agreed, and with proper safeguards they might be allowed to test the matter. But the House had had some experience of railway matters in Ireland, and they had no guarantee that this company would not pursue a similar course to the Great Southern and Western Railway, whose broken pledges to Parliament were a very grave scandal. This company had not made any effort to satisfy the public on that point, and that being so, he trusted that the House would send back this Bill. He hoped the House would be more ready to adopt this course, because this was one of the 1539 few lines in Ireland which could means be called progressive.
They would no doubt be told that the Midland Railway Company had their own fixed rates, which were lower than the rates upon this railway, but there was no guarantee that the same rates would prevail over this line now under consideration. Why the Midland Railway Company had 25,000,000 goods rates, and who could hope to make head or tail of such a mass of rates as that. Moreover, those rates though equitable on the Midland system in England, might be quite inequitable on the line it was proposed to acquire in Ireland. High rates for the carriage of linen, for instance, would injure Ireland, but it whereas would not injure England, high rates for coal would injure England much more than Ireland, and to apply these rates to Ireland without their being reviewed by a Committee would be most unjust. The Great Southern and Western Railway Bills attempted to force all traffic possible through the ports of Rosslare and Fishguard, and in the case of this Bill everything possible would be done to force traffic through Belfast. It was for this House to consider whether it would not be better to secure for the people a fair revision of the rates which they had to pay on their merchandise. At the present time Belfast competed with French net spinners and manufacturers. France was able to throw these goods on the English market at a cost of 28s. 9d. a ton, whilst the Irish manufacturer had to pay 40s. to bring his wares to the same market. Indeed, so high were the charges for conveyance of goods on Irish railways that it had been proved that considerable sum of money could be saved by sending goods from Belfast to Liverpool and from Liverpool across again to the town in Ireland to which the goods were to be delivered, instead sending them direct by train from Belfast. Danish butter from Copenhagen could be landed at Liverpool at a carriage rate of 20s. a ton, but Iris butter from Cookstown cost 27s. 6d. From Copenhagen to Manchester it was 35s., from Cookstown to Manchester was 37s. 6d. Canadian butter came over at a cost of 40s. a ton, whereas to send butter from Derry to Nottingham cost 46s. It was impossible under such cir- 1540 cumstauces that Irish produce could compete with foreign in the English markets. It must also be remembered hat these rates which were charged on the Irish Railways were in most cases fixed and controlled by English companies interested in those railways. If he lad the purse of the Midland and Belfast and Northern Counties Railway Companies he could get resolutions passed by lie District Councils and [the County Councils either for or against this Bill-Cries of "No, no."] It only required to be brought home to the District and Jaunty Councils in Ireland that this was a fight to obtain fair rates, and then there would be petitions from every District and County Council in Ireland: against this Bill. He moved the rejection of the Bill.-
§ MR. HAYDEN (Roscommon, S.)formally seconded.
§
Amendment proposed.
To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.'"—(Mr. MacVeagh.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
§ SIR CHARLES RENSHAW (Renfrew, W.)reminded the House that the whole question of railway rates in Ireland and Scotland was regulated by the Board of Trude. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: And they do it very badly.] That was a question upon which he did not think the House was called upon to express an opinion on this occasion. The course suggested by the hon. Member for South Down had no precedent in the procedure of the House. He hoped this Bill would be given a Second Reading, and that it would be sent to a Committee upstairs where the details might be threshed out.
§ *MR. O'DOHERTY (Donegal, N.)dissociated himself from the remark made by the hon. Member for South Down in which he asserted that if he had the purse of the Midland Company he could influence the local bodies in Ireland either way in regard to this measure.
§ MR. MACVEAGH explained that what he said was that if he had the purse 1541 of the Midland and Northern Counties Railway Companies he could place facts before them which would induce them to send petitions against this Bill.
§ *MR. O'DOHERTY said the hon. Member for South Down was mistaken when he said that the Port and Harbours Commissioners of Londonderry had asked the House to reject this Bill; they had done nothing of the kind. The Commissioners required certain instructions given to the Committee, in order that the trade and commerce of the port of Londonderry properly safeguarded.
§ MR. MACVEAGH said a telegram had been issued stating that the Port and Harbour Commissioners of Londonderry earnestly appealed to the House to reject this Bill, or at least to get certain instructions inserted in Committee.
§ *MR. O'DOHERTY said that the Port and Harbour Commissioners were in favour, and had given instructions to those lion. Members whom they could influence to vote for the Bill—in fact, the whole trade and commerce, not only of Londonderry, but also of the north of Ireland, were in favour of this Bill. The hon. Member for South Down said the Belfast and Northern Counties Railway Company would be managed in the future by foreigners. Evidently the hon. Member had not read the Bill, which provided that there was to be a Committee to regulate all Irish traffic, this Committee to be composed of three local North of Ireland gentlemen and three directors of the Midland Railway. He thought it would appeal to hon Members when he said that there was not a single constituency through which this line would pass whose representative would not record his vote in favour of this Bill. The Midland Railway had not a bad record with them in the north of Ireland; they had put their hands in their pockets deeply in order to develop the industrial resources of the county of Donegal. This Company had been instrumental in constructing twenty or thirty miles of light railways through Donegal, and they were engaged in constructing other lines in that county.
1542§ The more railways they had in Ireland, and the more inducements they could hold out to English capitalist to invest their money in Ireland, the better. He did not believe in monopolies, and he hoped the House would pass this Bill, as if they did not the chances would be that the Great Northern Railway of Ireland would acquire and thereby create a monopoly in the North of Ireland.
§ COL. M'CALMONT (Antrim, E.)said he should support the Second Reading. The hon. Member who had just sat down had enlightened them very much as to the purport of the Bill. All the public bodies in the North-East of Ireland had shown that they desired that this Bill should pass. He could not imagine anything more advantageous than the advent of a great company like the Midland Railway, with its great capital and unlimited resources. He hoped the House would approve of the principle of the Bill by passing the Second Reading, and allow the details to be settled in Committee. The position of Derry and other places would be fairly and squarely considered, and the rates could not possibly be raised without the consent of the Railway Commissioners.
§ MR. O'KELLY (Mayo, N.)the statement made by the Member for South Down about being able to influence public bodies in Ireland if he had the purse of this Company at his disposal was absolutely untrue. He wished to protest against such a remark, and he should support the Second Reading. The County Councils of Ireland had a sufficient defence for the integrity with which they had discharged their duties, in the repeated vindication they had received from the Local Government Board of Ireland.
§ THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (MR. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.)said nothing could be more calculated to advance the material interests of Ireland than the existence of lines of railway competing for the carriage of Irish goods to different markets in England. He could not, therefore, understand the objection 1543 to a Bill which would enable a rich and powerful English company to join with some of the local Irish railway companies in increasing and developing the means of cheap and rapid goods traffic between Ireland and England, although they might differ as to the terms to be imposed upon this company; these might very well form the subjects of discussion before the Committee; he could not understand how hon. Members from Ireland could oppose this Bill. Points of detail could be legitimately discussed in Committee, and he heartily supported the Second Reading.
§ MR. HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.)said his constituents were very much interested in this Bill, because the principal town in North Tyrone, which he had the honour of representing, was directly interested in having as easy and cheap means of communication between England and the different ports of Ireland as possible. All they wanted in Ireland was capital, and if they had sufficient capital they would be about the most flourishing and the happiest people on the face of the earth. He was inclined to support the Second Reading, but he was rather afraid of the overwhelming power of this great English company, which might swallow and devour all that came in its way in a poor country like Ireland. There were Motions on the Paper to refer this Bill to a hybrid Committee, and if that course were taken, the object of the hon. Member for South Down would be achieved. If the instruction of the noble Lord the Member for Londonderry were carried, then Irish interests would be safeguarded, and the danger of heavy rates being charged would be greatly obviated. He appealed to the hon. Member for South Down to withdraw his Motion and let the House proceed to consider the instructions.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)said he thought the remark of his hon. friend the Member for South Down had been misunderstood. Several speakers seemed to be under the impression that the hon. Member for South Down made a wholesale accusation of corruption against the public bodies of Ireland. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: "So he did."]
1544 He was perfectly certain that the hon-Member for South Down intended to make no such accusation as that, for such a charge would to anyone at all acquainted with public life in Ireland since the Local Government Act was passed. Every one knew that not only in business capacity, but in purity also, those public bodies were quite able to hold their own with public bodies either in England or Scotland. What his hon. friend meant was, that a great wealthy English corporation like the Midland Railway Company, was by the mere fact of its influence, power, and wealth, able to create a public opinion in its favour: but to say that this company would be able to obtain petitions and resolutions for or against any public measure in Ireland was a statement which could not be supported, and he was quite sure the Member for South Down never meant that.
Whatever view might be taken as to the desirability of passing the Second Reading of this Bill, he sympathised very much with the object which his hon. friend Down had in the Member for South raising this discussion. His hon. friend called attention to what had been going on in Ireland in regard to the acquisition of a number of Irish railway lines by great English railway companies. It did not meet the objection to tell him that these great companies might manage the lines better than the existing Irish companies managed them. They looked forward to the day when there would be a radical reform in the whole question of railway transit in Ireland. Ho personally looked forward to the day when there might be in Ireland something in the nature of a nationalisation of Irish railways. It might not come for some time: it might not come until they had a local governing body in Ireland; but when the time did come for carrying out the reform, the difficulties in the way of carrying it out would undoubtedly be considerably increased if at that time all the Irish railways were in the hands of great English companies. He thought his hon. friend, from that point of view, was perfectly justified in calling attention to this matter.
The Attorney-General had rightly told the House that one of the great 1545 difficulties from which Ireland was suffering at this moment was to be found in the deficient facilities for the carriage of goods in the country, and the hon. and learned Gentleman was disposed to give his support to the Bill on the supposition that if the Midland Company got possession of the line the facilities in that part of Ireland would be improved. His hon. friend's second objection to the Second Reading of the Bill was that there was no undertaking whatever that the rates which obtained even on the Midland lines in England would be extended to this Irish line when acquired by them. It seemed to him that his hon. friend would be wise if he did not divide the House against the Second Heading, but trusted to the discussion next time it came up, on the 'instruction" which stood in his name, calling upon the Committee to insist on the railway company inserting in the Bill certain provisions with reference to rates. There was a further instruction on the Paper asking that the Bill should be referred to a hybrid Committee. He thought that was a reasonable proposal also. He did not know who was in charge of the Bill on behalf of the promoters, but he was quite sure that if they would give an assurance that they would agree to a proposal of that kind there would be no objection to passing the Second Reading. He had intervened in the debate because he thought his hon. friend, whose intentions were perfectly good, had been misunderstood by a large number of the Members of the House. He offered to his hon. friend the same suggestion which the Attorney-General had already offered, namely, that the question of rates should be left to be threshed out when the instruction came up, and that they should press the necessity of sending the Bill to a hybrid Committee.
§ The Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Bill read a second time.