HC Deb 23 March 1903 vol 119 cc1556-76
CLASS II.
£
Colonial Office 25,000
CLASS IV
Board of Education 6,000,000
CLASS II. £
Board of Agriculture 65,000
CLASS III.
Crofters Commission, Scotland 2,000
CLASS I.
Royal Palaces and Marlborough House 40,000
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens 50,000
Houses of Parliament Buildings 16,000
Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain 30,000
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain 20,000
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings 18,000
Revenue Buildings 225,000
Public Buildings, Great Britain 225,000
Surveys of the United Kingdom 90,000
Harbours under the Board of Trade 7,000
Peterhead Harbour 6,000
Rates on Government Property 250,000
Public Works and Buildings, Ireland 110,000
Railways, Ireland 80,000
CLASS II.
United Kingdom and England;—
House of Lords Offices 2,000
House of Commons Offices 12,000
Treasury and Subordinate Departments 40,000
Home Office 60,000
Foreign Office 30,000
Privy Council Office, & c. 5,000
Board of Trade 75,000
Mercantile Marine Services 30,000
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade 3
Charity Commission 15,000
Civil Service Commission 18,000
Exchequer and Audit Department 25,000
Friendly Societies Registry 3,000
Local Government Board 85,000
Lunacy Commission 5,000
Mint (including Coinage) 5
Rational Debt Office 6,000
Public Record Office 10,000
Public Works Loan Commission 5
Registrar-General's Office 19,000
Stationery and Printing 320,000
Woods, Forests, & c, Office of 8,000
£
Works and Public Buildings, Office of 30,000
Secret Service 40,000
Scotland;—
Secretary for Scotland 25,000
Fishery Board 8,000
Lunacy Commission 3,000
Registrar-General's Office 5,000
Local Government Board 6,000
Ireland;:—
Lord-Lieutenant's Household 2,000
Chief Secretary for Ireland 16,000
Department of Agriculture 75,000
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office 1,000
Local Government Board 25,000
Public Record Office 2,000
Public Works Office 18,000
Registrar-General's Office 6,000
Valuation and Boundary Survey 7,000
CLASS II.
United Kingdom and England:—
Law Charges 35,000
Miscellaneous Legal Expenses 27,000
Supreme Court of Judicature 140,000
Land Registry 20,000
County Courts 8,000
Police, England and Wales 18,000
Prisons, England and the Colonies 340,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain 140,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum 14,000
Scotland;—
Law Charges and Courts of Law 30,000
Register House, Edinburgh 15,000
Prisons, Scotland 40,000
Ireland;—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions 35,000
Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments 45,000
Land Commission 55,000
County Court Officers, etc. 46,000
Dublin Metropolitan Police 45,000
Royal Irish Constabulary 600,000
Prisons, Ireland 50,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools 55,000
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum 3,000
CLASS IV.
United Kingdom and England:— £
British Museum 80,000
National Gallery 10,000
National Portrait Gallery 3,000
Wallace Collection 4,000
Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom 22,000
Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales 42,000
Scotland;—
Public Education 750,000
National Gallery 3,000
Ireland:—
Public Education 730,000
Endowed Schools Commissioners 400
National Gallery 3,000
Queen's Colleges 2,500
CLASS V.
Diplomatic and Consular Services 250,000
Uganda,, Central and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway 320,000
Colonial Services 300,000
Cyprus, Grant-in-Aid 85,000
Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable 32,000
CLASS II.
Superannuation and Retired Allowances 280,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc. 2,000
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances 1,000
Hospitals and Charities, Ireland 17,000
Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiencies
CLASS VII.
Temporary Commissions 25,000
Miscellaneous Expenses 16,087
Repayments to the Local Loans Fund
St. Louis Exhibition, 1904
Total for Civil Services £13,035,000
Revenue Departments. £
Customs 350,000
Inland Revenue 830,000
£
Post Office 3,800,000
Post Office Packet Service 250,000
Post Office Telegraphs 2,000,000
Total for Revenue Departments £7,230,000
Grand Total £20,265,000

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

*MR. CATHCART WASON said he wished to appeal to the Lord Advocate to bring his influence to bear on the; Government with reference to the condition of the people of South Uist. The houses of the people were built with loose stones, plastered with mud. The family lived at one end and the cattle at the other; and outbreaks of fever were frequent. That was not fiction. It was contained in the Report issued by the Congested Districts Board of Scotland. Kelp industry had failed in the district, and as it was their one; source of obtaining money the people; were now absolutely within measurable danger of starvation. In those circumstances he would appeal to the Lord Advocate to recede from the hard and fast line he had taken up, make a full I inquiry into the condition of the people, and remove what was a standing disgrace to the British nation.

There was another subject to which he wished to refer, and which he sincerely regretted had not yet received the attention it deserved. That was the recruiting of native labour for the mines in South Africa. The Colonial Office view was stated the other night, and it was to the effect that they could not interfere with the self-governing colonies in such a matter. His reply was that they had already interfered, and not I so very long ago. When recruiting was being carried on in the South Sea Islands for slave labour in Queensland very horrible events occurred, and the Government interfered in a very drastic fashion. It was almost impossible to recruit native labour for the mines without bringing about even worse evils than slavery. The last thing the natives wanted was to go down into the bowels of the earth and dig out what appeared to them to be a worthless metal. The natives were perfectly happy in their own little cottages, with their mealie plots and one or more wives. lie would ask hon. Members to consider how America acted in this matter. America had got mines in a climate very similar to that of South Africa, but there was no question there of getting slave labour; they paid a white man an honest day's wage for an honest day's labour. The absurd prejudice which a white man had to work with a black or a yellow man should not exist in the British Empire, seeing that the greater proportion of His Majesty's subjects were coloured persons. It was made perfectly clear three years ago that they did not go to war in South Africa for the sake of the mines; but now a different state of affairs had arisen, and they were told that the Government, without consulting the House of Commons or the country, had deliberately given their sanction to the recruiting of 1,000 natives in Central Africa. That was a scandalous proceeding, and would lead to deplorable results, and would besmirch the fair name of this country throughout the world. The great industry in South Africa was not the mining industry. There was a great agricultural future before that country, and it was on agriculture only they could found a condition of permanent prosperity. The mines might bring a little temporary prosperity, but agriculture was the only basis on which any country could rest for prosperity.

Another matter which he wished to bring to the attention of the House was the very unsatisfactory position which existed with reference to the loans guaranteed by certain South African magnates. With regard to that their information was rather limited. They were told that a sum of £30,000,000 had been underwritten.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The loans are not included in the Estimates before the House.

MR. CATHCART WASON said he only wished to point out the position of the mine-owners in South Africa with reference to the loans.

*MR. SPEAKER

I understood the hon. Gentleman was proceeding to discuss the Loan Bills.

MR. CATHCART WASON said he only wished to refer to the unsatisfactory feeling which existed in South Africa with reference to the matter. They were told that certain arrangements had been made; but in South Africa a totally different impression had been created. There it was believed that part of the bargain was that the mine-owners should have sole control over the mining industry. That was the statement of a Mr. Solomon, who was most favourable to the Government. He thought it would be a great pity if the House was not given an opportunity of deciding whether they would have any share whatever in introducing slavery into South Africa. It was slavery, and nothing else; and it was all nonsense to say that the natives wished to work They only Worked under the inducement of high wage, illicit intercourse, illicit drink, or some other inducement of that kind.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

said he desired to say a few words on a topic with regard to which it was time that they had some indication of the policy that was being pursued by the Government. That was the question of what was passing in South-Eastern Europe. The House would remember that by the 23rd Article of the Treaty of Berlin, of which this country was a signatory, certain provisions were drawn up for introducing reforms of government and administration into the European provinces of Turkey. A scheme was drawn up by a Commission; and he was sorry the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon was not present, as he was one of the Commissioners, and could, no doubt, give the House a great deal of information with reference to the provisions of the scheme. Nothing, however, had been done from that day to this to carry out the provisions of that scheme. This country had a special responsibility in regard to the administration of these provinces over and above the responsibility which belonged to it as one of the signatory Powers, because when the Treaty of San Stefano, which gave nearly the whole of Macedonia to the Principality of Bulgaria, was signed, His Majesty's Government interposed and protested against its provisions. The result was that the Treaty of Berlin was substituted, and that a large strip territory was cut out from the new Principality of Bulgaria and left under the dominion of Turkey, and the people who would have shared in the prosperity which had attended the Principality of Bulgaria were sent back under the yoke if Turkey. Therefore, a responsibility rested on this country in a special sense to endeavour to secure for the inhabitants of these provinces all that better administration, free government and prosperity which the Principality of Bulgaria had secured for its subjects. Nothing had been done since 1878 to carry out the provisions of the scheme hen drawn up. Within the last few weeks an elaborate Blue-book had been issued containing Reports from His Majesty's Consuls and Ambassadors with reference to the state of things in these Provinces, and particularly in Macedonia and Albania. Such an amount of controversy and falsehood always attached to everything that came, from the East that it was not easy to determine the precise truth; but there appeared to emerge from the data given in the Blue-book, first, that there was a great deal of gross and monstrous maladministration on the part of Turkish officials, and corruption and violence on the part of Turkish tax-gatherers, and, secondly, that there was cruelty and oppression, and that the condition of the people was nearly as bad as ever it bad been. As a consequence of this maladministration, there had arisen revolutionary bands which traversed the country with an object mainly political but which sometimes, it was to be feared, degenerated into brigandage.

These bands were to some extent organised in Bulgaria, and to some extent in Macedonia; and they had practically established a kind of semi-independent government, and were able to carry on a sort of skirmishing warfare with the Turkish police. Under those circumstances, constant pressure was being put on the Bulgarian Government to suppress the agitation so far as it proceeded from the Bulgarian side; and they read in the Blue-book of constant complaints being addressed to the Bulgarian Government, sometimes by the Turkish Government, sometimes by our own Government, sometimes by the Austrian sometimes by the Russian Government. And the Bulgarian Government apparently tried to do its duty, but it stood in a very difficult position. Halt of its officials, according to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, were of Macedonian birth; and there was a large body of Macedonian exiles in Bulgaria who kept up the agitation there, and who had a large influence with the Bulgarian population, who were substantially the same in race and creed as the Bulgarian population in Macedonia. Macedonia consisted of very different elements of population. There was the Bulgarian element, which was the largest, the Servian element, the Greek element, and the Albanian element. Under these circumstances, the sympathy of the Bulgarian population with the people of Macedonia was very strong, and they had both practical and economical reasons for desiring to see Macedonia at peace.

The large immigration of unhappy Macedonian exiles into Bulgaria, fleeing from the maladministration from which they suffered, had created a competition for employment, which pressed very heavily on the native Bulgarian population. The Bulgarian Government had done all that it could be expected to do to keep the agitation quiet; but for the pressure exerted by Austria and Russia, it would not have been able to do as much as it had. Then, in addition to these elements of confusion, there were the lawless, turbulent population of Albania. The Albanians, who were a high-spirited, warlike race who lived for war, and whose delight it was to raid the cattle and the people of their peaceful neighbours, enjoyed practical immunity because of their great hold upon Constantinople. Many of the favourites of the Sultan, many of the leading officials in European Turkey, and many of the strongest and ablest men in the Turkish service, particularly in the military service, were of Albanian origin; they had great influence at the Palace and in every part of Turkish government; consequently, it was almost impossible to get justice done upon an Albanian misdoer. All through the Blue-book there were accounts of the constant attacks by Albanians; even the railway was not safe from their operations, and neither the Turkish forces nor the people themselves were able to cope with the raiders.

From these facts the House could understand what a perfect chaos of disorder and misery existed in the provinces. For many years past things had been going from bad to worse. In 1901 the position became very serious, and it was apprehended that a grave insurrection would break out. In the beginning of 1902 Austria and Russia took the alarm, and put all possible pressure on the Bulgarian Government, who appeared to have done what it could to restrain the revolutionary bands. As the Foreign Secretary had stated, the blame for the revolutionary movement was largely to be attributed to the gross misconduct of the Government, which allowed the territories to degenerate into anarchy. The remedy would be an insurrection, but he feared that an insurrection would be followed by a massacre. Such a catastrophe all would desire to see averted. The fear of the consequences to European peace had led Austria and Russia to frame a scheme under which an Inspector-General was to be appointed, with the consent of the Powers, having the financial control of the revenues, upon which the first charge would be for the maintenance of order and the discharge of public obligations) and this Inspector-General was to be aided by European officials, who were to reorganise the police. It was not an ambitious scheme, but those who felt that they might have to wait a long time to secure a more complete scheme, and then perhaps get it only at the cost of war, would be glad to accept anything which gave a prospect of a better state of things. He therefore did not suggest that this scheme should be rejected, because it did not go so far as they might desire. Given certain conditions, it might do good, those conditions being that a capable and independent man was chosen as Inspector-General, that he was not interfered with by the Turks, that he had a real and effective control of the finance of the province, and was able to apply it to local purposes instead of remitting it to Constantinople, and that he set quickly to work. Under such conditions there would be ample opportunity of introducing changes of great practical moment.

The Government, while declaring the scheme to be incomplete, had said it would be better to have a scheme which could be applied at once than to wait for a better scheme in the circumstances of peril which obtained, and they therefore accepted the scheme subject to the right of suggesting improvements on further consideration. The Turks, to the surprise of the world, at once accepted the scheme, and declared they would extend it to Albania. But the idea of extending it to Albania was absurd, because the Turks had practically no control there, and after the experience of the past, a little scepticism as to their will to carry out these reforms was only natural. As far as could be gathered, nothing had yet been done beyond the selection of Hilmi Pasha to be Inspector-General. The position was one of great danger. Unless the scheme were carried out promptly, and some steps taken to assure the Macedonian insurgents and their Bulgarian sympathisers that something was to be done to end the present disastrous state of affairs, there was a risk of their patience becoming exhausted, and the revolutionary committees and bands resuming their activity. The hands of the Bulgarian Government might be forced; there would be a general insurrection, which might result in a European conflagration, extending far beyond the boundaries of Macedonia itself. It was of the utmost importance that prompt steps should be taken to bring the scheme into operation, and to give a guarantee to the people of Macedonia and Bulgaria that the proposals of the Powers would be carried out. He desired, therefore, to know what steps were being taken; what was the position of the reform scheme; had anything more been done than the appointment of Hilmi Pasha; had steps been taken to appoint the European officials who were to reorganise the gendarmerie; what did the Government know about the present condition of the country and the probability of the pressure which had been applied preventing the outbreak of an insurrection; and what the Government contemplated as the proper stops to be taken in the event of the Turks causing further delays. We stood at a most dangerous moment. It was not merely a question of our sympathy with those who suffered from oppression, disorder, and brigandage; it was also a question of averting a general European conflict, and this ought to induce the Government to do all they could to compel the Turkish Government to act promptly in the matter. He asked the Government to confirm the assurance that they would approach this important matter, and would do everything they could to endeavour to second the efforts of Austria and Russia. There was no desire on his part to censure the action of the Government, but he hoped that they would be able to give him a satisfactory answer, and he was confident they would have the general sentiment of the House and the country with them in endeavouring to put more pressure upon the Turkish Government.

*THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRAN-BORNE, Rochester)

The right hon. Gentleman in his remarks has certainly not exaggerated the state of misgovernment in European Turkey. It is a very old story, and I am sorry to say that, though the story is told and retold, it never seems condition to get any better. The condition of things is lamentable in Macedonia, but in Albania it is much worse, and practically, in large portions of European Turkey, there is an absence of government. The taxation is heavy and oppressive; many persons are put into prison without trial, and the police and gendarmerie are detailed to make good the deficiency in ways that all must condemn. That state of things is not confined to Macedonia, but, on the other hand, I do not think that in what he has said the right hon. Gentleman has quite realised the character of the proceedings of the Macedonian Committee. He has pictured the as patriots with great love for their country, and as pursuing by methods which, if not legitimate, are very nearly legitimate, the end of emancipation. I hardly think the right hon. Gentleman has read with as much care as I have done the Papers on the subject which have been laid before Parliament. The proceedings of the Macedonian Committee are of a very extreme character indeed. Murder and outrage of different kinds are as much the disgrace of the Macedonian Committee as of the Turkish Government. Take murder for murder, you will find more committed by the Macedonian Committee than by the representatives of the Turkish Government. For a long time the methods the Turks adopted to repress disorder were characterised by great moderation. The regular troops were kept perfectly under control, but as the rebellion proceeded and the agitation increased, against the advice of the representatives of the European Powers at Constantinople, the Turkish Government were unwise enough to use some of their irregular Militia, and the ordinary consequences followed. But I do not think even those troops proceeded to such extremities as did the emissaries of the Macedonian Committee. I should like to read a shore passage from a despatch of Consul-General Sir A. Biliotti forwarded by Sir N. O'Conor. It is as follows— Proselytism and terrorism were the means by which they sought to destroy all tranquillity, and to reduce the inhabitants of the district to such complete misery as would force them to all in with their revolutionary ideas. The priests and the schoolmasters, working with the daily increasing bands at their backs, instilled into the minds of the peasants that they must look for relief to Bulgaria and prepare for the great struggle which struggle which should give liberty to their children. Little by little they removed all who, faithful to the Patriarchate, refused their allegiance; and in the Sandjak of Serres alone over one hundred Greeks, Vlachs, and Orthodox Bulgarians fell victims to their vengeance and cruelty. In his speech the right hon. Gentleman spoke to the inhabitants of Macedonia as being substantially the same in name and in speech.

MR. BRYCE

Everyone knows there are all sorts and races in Macedonia, but the majority are Bulgarians in race and speech.

*LORD CRANBORNE

Yes, the majority is a very large one in some cases. But the Macedonian Committee not only murdered the Turks but also the Greeks who differed from them. A sound view of the state of things in European Turkey cannot be obtained until it is realised that, bad as is the Government of Turkey, the atrocities are not confined to the Turks, but are the ordinary method of extreme political discussion in these unfortunate countries. I do not think that is any excuse for the Turks, for two reasons. In the first place, the Turks represent the Government and the iniquities done by the Bulgarians and Macedonians do not excuse them in retorting in kind. In the second place, the Turks are bound by treaties to Europe to introduce reforms and bring about a better state of things in Macedonia. Although their obligation.

is of a very old date, they have done practically nothing to fulfil it. It was therefore a matter of great satisfaction to His Majesty's Government when the Austrian and Russian Governments came forward with their scheme, which, if carried out, will be in itself effective to a very substantial degree. The question is, Will it be carried out? We have been so often disappointed that no one can speak with confidence on the matter; but I believe the Inspector-General, Hilmi Pasha, is a strong and well-meaning man, and he has certainly shown in the proceedings which have hitherto characterized his tenure of office that he realizes the responsibility of his position. He has put a great many evil-doers in prison, while he has released a great number of political prisoners, and he has removed several incompetent Valis; and on the whole I may say that considering the short time he has been in office he has shown every prospect of being equal the situation. One of His Majesty's Counsule says in a report that Hilmi Pasha has worked hard and unceasingly since his arrival, and has done work that the ought to have been allowed to undertake long ago. He does what he can to ensure justice to each case; he has no time either to eat or to sleep, and his good will beyond question, He is in telegraphic communication with the Kaimakams, and has dismissed several incompetent minor officials, whilst the Albanians already fear his very name. So far as that goes it is a good character for a Turkish Governor. I cannot help thinking that if he is left alone he may produce substantially good results. It is essential that should be done, and the most important part of the Austro-Russian scheme is the clause that gives a fixity of tenure for three years. The right hon. Gentleman asks whether the European experts have been appointed under the scheme to assist in the reorganisation of the police and gendarmerie. The Government have no reason to suppose that anything has yet been done in that direction, but the Sultan seems to have sanctioned the scheme, not only in the province of Macedonia, but in the other provinces in European Turkey, and if a strong governor like Hilmi Pasha is left undisturbed for three years, we may rely upon it that substantial results will follow. It is most important that ho should be left alone, and therefore I should much regret anything being said here that would give the least hope to these agitators and emissaries of the Macedonian Committee that if they attempted to disturb what, if not very much, is at least something in the way of reform, they would receive any support or countenance from the Powers of Europe. We must be content to allow this experiment to work, and we should be doing nothing but the greatest disservice, not only to our own interests, which are very important, but to the interests of the subject populations, if by any expression of sympathy, however well deserved we might deem it to he, we allowed those Macedonian revolutionists to imagine that in spite of the Austro-Russian Scheme being in operation, Europe would support an appeal to a violent revolution. I hope nothing of the kind will happen, and on the other hand, that on this last occasion almost, Turkey will be wise and will recognise the enormous importance of making the experiment of good government a success. After all she must realise the fact that in the scheme no injury is done to the integrity of her dominions. The Sultan will still enjoy the sovereignty over those provinces, and the allegiance of these populations. All Europe recognises the immense difficulty of the problem to be solved, and above all, we say that to excite the terror and fanaticism of the Moslem would be almost worse than anything else. We also recognise that one of the greatest difficulties which the Inspector-General will encounter in restoring order is the discredit into which the Turkish Government has fallen, owing to which any act of his is open to a sort of suspicion. It is to be hoped that the presence of the European experts will give a guarantee and assurance to Europe that the repression of disorder is being carried out with moderation, and with no unnecessary severity, and that the slow process of recreating a Government may be allowed to proceed undisturbed.

For ourselves we are quite ready to play our part as signatories to the treaty of Berlin. That is due to the peace of Europe, and any assistance which the Consular representatives of His Majesty can give in watching over the progress of these reforms, and in making suggestions where they can in agreement with the representatives of Austria and Russia, they will be prepared to give upon our instructions. The other Papers to which the right hon. Gentleman referred are in a very forward state, but I cannot name the day when they will be presented, although I hope it will be within a few days. There is no desire on the part of the Government to keep information from this House which ought to be given. On the contrary the Government rely upon the House to assist them in doing what they can to further the scheme upon which the Austrian and Russian Governments have entered. They hope thereby that it may restore some kind of order and comfort to these unfortunate people without disturbing the political situation in European Turkey, and thus bringing about a greater evil to that part of the world.

MR. STEVENSON (Suffolk, Eye)

expressed some disappointment that no more definite announcement had been made by the Under-Secretary with regard to the European gendarmerie, and that no assurance had been given that a greater amount of work was being done by non-Turkish subjects. Past experience taught them that the bettor disposed was the Turkish Governor the greater were the intrigues to undermine the work with which he was engaged. That was all the more reason why Europeans should be on the spot. He strongly appealed to the Government to do everything they could by amicable pressure, or by any other method for the purpose of securing a speedy organisation of the mixed forces of the gendarmerie under European officers. It was only in that way there could be the slightest hope of the maintenance of peace in that region. Both the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bryce) and the Under-Secretary appeared to think that the Bulgarian element played a more important part than was actually the case. Any action taken by the Government should be taken not with the view of supporting especially any one race, but to secure that all races should have a perfectly fair and equal field. If there was any one race to which the country should show special favour it would be rather the Greeks, with which race our permanent interests were more closely identified. The treaty of San Stefano emancipated Macedonia from Turkish rule, but the treaty of Berlin restored that province to Turkey, and it was the duty of all countries involved in the latter treaty to see that good order and government were secured so long as it remained in force, and that the population of the country, to whatever race they belonged, were not the losers by the change.