HC Deb 12 March 1903 vol 119 cc680-3

said the Instruction he wished to move now was a similar Instruction to that which the House had carried on the previous Bill, and he moved it for exactly the same purpose. He hoped, therefore, that the promoters would agree to accept it. If that course were not taken, he should be obliged to divide the House upon this Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to omit, in Clause 4, the words "without being required to purchase the same or any easement therein or there under.' "—(Mr. Griffith Boscawen.)

MR. COHEN (Islington, E.)

said he did not think that these two Bills were exactly on all fours, and even if they were, personally he thought the time had come when the House of Commons should not allow its own business to be conducted by a sort of outside negotiation between those who opposed a Bill and the so-called promoters of a Bill. Personally he wished to say that he had absolutely no interest and very little knowledge of the points dealt with in either the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill, or the City and South London Railway Bill, but he was informed with regard to this Instruction that this was a question upon which the promoters had not absolutely come to terms with those advocating it, and they contended that it differed from the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill, inasmuch as this was a new Bill upon which the sub-soil was not affected in the same way. He wished to say that he had not any desire to pronounce upon the arguments of his hon. friend the Member for Ton bridge, either for or against. All he wished was that the House of Commons, might not allow matters which properly be- longed to the House of Commons, or the Committee upstairs, to be settled by those who were for or against in the Lobby. Let this matter, which was essentially one to be determined after examining the representatives for and against, be settled by a Committee upstairs absolutely uninfluenced by any sordid motive. [An HON. MEMBER: Are we so influenced?] He had not suggested that, and he did not know why his hon. friends seemed to be so concerned about it. The Committee examined this question and decided it upon its merits, and therefore he hoped the House would not adopt this Instruction.


said his hon. friend suggested that there had been some sort of negotiation in this matter. Might he be allowed to say that there had been no negotiation whatever, and he had not been in any sort of communication with those interested in this Bill. He wished to point out that the two clauses to which he had alluded were absolutely identical in effect in both cases, and inasmuch as the House had agreed to one principle the same applied to the other.


said he thought the hon. Member for Islington's conscience would prick him before the evening was out. He now saw the evil of supporting the previous Bill, for it had carried him further than he really thought it would do. If this matter of the sub-soil had been referred to the Royal Commission they would not have had the hon. Member's speech, and public owners in regard to the sub-soil would have

been properly protected. The proper course was that which the hon. Member for Islington tardily admitted, that was, for the House not to recognise the promoters' concession to some gentlemen who represented from an absolutely disinterested point of view a certain principle with regard to the acquisition of private property. The hon. Member was perfectly entitled to put before the Committee this principle, but he thought it was a matter which ought not to be advanced in the way of Instruction upon a Bill like this. The House saw now the error of its ways, and desired to find a way out. The way out of the difficulty was to withdraw the Instruction from the previous Bill and let both Bills unconditionally go either to the Committee upstairs or to the Royal Commission, and have evidence produced of damage done either to private or public properties and let the Committee or the Royal Commission determine the principle and the amount of compensation. But the House had thought fit, against its better judgment, to resolve upon a less excellent course. He was sorry that he was not able to convert the House to the better view. If private property was damaged, and public rights were encroached upon, as they would be if these instructions were carried, the House of Commons must not blame the hon. Member for Battersea, but they must blame those gentlemen who, at the behest of a few politicians, had undermined the rights of property.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 57; Noes, 162. (Division List, No. 29.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Forster, Henry William Pym, C. Guy
Bagot, Capt.Josceline FitzRoy Galloway, William Johnson Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge)
Balcarres, Lord Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Gordon Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nrn) Round, Rt. Hon. James
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Graham, Henry Robert Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Bignold, Arthur Gretton, John Sharpe, William Edward T.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Groves, James Grimble Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Butcher, John George Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Carson, Rt, Hon. Sir Edw. H. Harris, Frederick Leverton Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham) Stock, James Henry
Charrington, Spencer Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Clare, Octavius Leigh Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lawson, John Grant Valentia, Viscount
Cochrano, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Llewellyn, Evan Henry Walker, Col. William Hall
Coghill, Douglas Harry M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole M'Calmont, Colonel James
Crossley, Sir Savile Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Myers, William Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES-
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed. Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) Mr. Griffith Boscawen and
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Mr. Vicary Gibbs.
Fisher, William Hayes Pretyman, Ernest George
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd) Rea, Russell
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Harmsworth. R. Leicester Redmond, William (Clare)
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) Hay, Hon. Claude George Reid, James (Greenock)
Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden Hayden, John Patrick Remnant, Jas. Farquharson
Anson, Sir William Reynell Helder, Augustus Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)
Anstruther, H. T. Helme, Norval Watson Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Hoare, Sir Samuel Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Arrol, Sir William Horner, Frederick William Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Kb. Hn. Sir H. Hudson. George Bickersteth Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Joicey, Sir James Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)
Balfour, Rt, Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Joyce, Michael Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bell, Richard Kearley, Hudson E. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Bigwood, James Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight
Blundell, Colonel Henry Kitson, Sir James Shackleton, David James
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Knowles, Lees Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Brigg, John Law, Andrew Bonar (Gbasgow) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Broadhurst, Henry Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monm'th) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burns, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside)
Burt, Thomas Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Caldwell, James Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Leigh, Sir Joseph Spear, John Ward
Cautley, Henry Strother Leng, Sir John Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants
Cavendish, V C W (Derbysh.) Lockie, John Stevenson, Francis S.
Channing, Francis Allston Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Collings, Right Hon. Jesse Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Strachey, Sir Edward
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Sullivan, Donal
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lundon, W. Tennant, Harold John
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Maconochie, A. W. Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) M'Crae, George Thornton, Percy M.
Cranborne, Viscount Markham, Arthur Basil Tomkinson, James
Crean, Eugene Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.
Cremer, William Randal Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Cullinan, J. More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire) Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Davies, M.Vaughan (Cardign) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Delany, William Morrison, James Archibald Webb, Col. William George
Denny, Colonel Mount, William Arthur Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
Dickson, Charles Scott Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. White, George (Norfolk)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Murphy, John Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Murray. Rt Hn A.Graham (Bute) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duffy, William J. Nannetti, Joseph P. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Duke, Henry Edward Nicholson, William Graham Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Duncan, J. Hastings Nicol, Donald Ninian Willox, Sir John Archibald
Durning-Lawrence. Sir Edwin Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne O'Dowd, John Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Flavin, Michael Joseph Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard Wylie, Alexander
Flower, Ernest Pirie, Duncan V.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Gardner, Ernest Power, Patrick Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES-
Garfit, William Randles, John S. Mr. Cohen and Colonel
Goddard, Daniel Ford Rankin, Sir James Lucas.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rattigan, Sir William Henry
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