*MR. WILLIAM JONES(Carnarvonshire, Arfon) moved "That in the opinion of this House it is desirable to make provision, similar to that made for Scotland and Ireland, for a national museum in Wales. He said that they viewed this in Wales as a great and important educational question. They were anxious to see the educational institutions in Wales brought to such a state of perfection as not to be behind those of any other country. But notwithstanding the fine development of their system of education in the Principality, there was not a national museum to accommodate treasures of artistic, historical, or archaeological interest, and no collections of any objects of art relating to Wales where they might be conveniently placed to afford.
351 to the inhabitants facilities for study and research. They believed they ought to have a museum similar to those which existed in almost every country in Europe, where every specimen of animal, fossil and mineral of interest to Wales would be adequately represented. They wanted a museum to form a complete exponent of the natural history of Wales—its application to the art and life of the country. They wished the museum also to be a scientific department supplemented by a technological collection. There was almost a national system of education in Wales, from the elementary schools up to the University colleges, and they needed a coping stone to the system in the form of technical education, and that could not be obtained without a national museum such as they desired to have. Wales was enormously rich in mineral resources, and they desired to have a collection of metallurgical and mineralogical specimens worthy of the country; they also desired to have a collection of objects of art, a library, and ultimately a national gallery of pictures. It was said that the British Museum contained specimens of Welsh objects, and so it did. But what was the good of a collection of Welsh objects of archaeology of interest to Welshmen in the British Museum? In London it was not accessible. They wanted the collection in their own country.
What Wales wanted was a national storehouse for Welsh treasures in Wales. Objects of Welsh art and antiquity were scattered all over the kingdom, many of them for sale, with no authority to purchase them for a central collection such as could be preseved in a national museum. They wanted these art treasures in their own country. Scotland and Ireland had been separately treated in the matter of the museum grants. Wales had received special treatment by both political Parties with regard to matters of secondary and thigher education. Why not pursue that policy to its logical sequel, and complete the education edifice with a national museum? The attitude of successive Governments had been most sympathetic in this matter. In 1894 Mr. Acland, the Minister of Education, 352 stated that he had no doubt some place would be found for a central museum, and that he would be glad to apply the same system to Wales as was applied to Scotland and Ireland in Edinburgh and Dublin; in 1895 the right hon. Member for Cambridge University expressed his earnest desire to see a Welsh museum established, and in 1898 the Report of the Select Committee of the Science and Art Department stated that a very good case had been made out for extending the grant and the advantages of science and art collections in Wales. In 1898 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University also said he had no doubt the claim of Wales to a museum grant would receive a most favourable consideration from the Board of Education. The Scotch grant for this purpose was £12,000, whilst that for Ireland amounted to £22,000, but Wales had only had two grants of £26 each, one in 1891 and one in 1896, for the museum at Cardiff. The House was aware that a tax was levied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1901 on exported coal. That tax amounted to £2,000,000, and of that sum Wales contributed no less than £900,000. Yet all she had had in the way of museum grants was these two sums of £26 each. He was not referring to the distributions of objects of art and models and the like. That was not what they wanted. They wanted a great collection of national treasures, and Wales, he thought, had a claim and a right to the museum grant, which all in Wales desired.
Not only had Governments of both Parties been unanimous on this question, but the Welsh Parties on both sides were also in accord. The location of such a museum was an important question in Wales, and, from a practical point of view, Wales had not been slow, to approach it. He personally believed in establishing a capital in Wales, and he would make the capital Cardiff, because of the enormous wealth and power of that town, and because of its being a great industrial and railway centre. But, apart from that, last year all the County, Municipal, and Urban District Councils, as well as the Councils of the three Constituent Colleges of the University of Wales, were invited to adopt a memorial to the Lord President of the Council praying 353 that a grant should be made to Wales in respect of a national museum, and that the location of such a museum should be settled by arbitration, to be instituted by Government in the same manner as the location of two of the Welsh University Colleges. Now ninety-four, out of a total of 114 councils adopted the memorial in its entirety. Of eleven councils who have adopted it in part only about six of them urge that, having regard to the geographical and educational condition of Wales, the purposes of a museum grant would best be promoted by a distribution amongst the three University Colleges. Scotland had four universities, yet there was only one national museum, and that was in Edinburgh. In Ireland there were lour colleges and one centre for the national museum, which was Dublin. Why, then, should they not have a centre for a really fine museum in Wales? The self help shown by the Welsh people was remarkable. They had never come to this House for an educational grant without having made large contributions themselves. In Carnarvonshire the people had contributed in a very few years £20,000 towards secondary education. That was equivalent to a 7d. rate in the pound, and that was not done by Act of Parliament, but was simply the result of the zeal and zest of the Welsh peasants for education. Bearing in mind the efforts which have recently been made in the cause of Welsh education, a national museum as a great educational agent was essential. So they earnestly asked for a grant to enable the Principality to possess a museum worthy of its people and of their possibilities. He begged to move the Resolution standing in his name.
*MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs),in seconding the Motion, said he hoped it would receive a sympathetic response from the Government. Ever since the late Mr. Thomas Ellis had mooted this question, the greatest interest had been taken in it in Wales. It was in no sense a Party question, because they had received sympathetic assurances from the occupants of the Front Bench of Governments from both sides of the House. It was not necessary for him to.argue at length the justice of the claim which Wales made for a due share of the museum grants of the United Kingdom. All Wales asked for was, that, while she had her own system of education, she 354 should in this respect be placed on an equal footing with Scotland and Ireland. It was difficult to say what was the amount of the grants to those, because it was almost impossible to get together under one head the moneys devoted to these particular purposes, but in the United Kingdom, as a whole, £400,000 was devoted to these purposes, and out of that amount Wales had only received two sums of £26 towards an exhibition at Cardiff, and other small doles of a similar character which had been received from time to time. That was not what she required. It was sometimes said that the British Museum ought to satisfy them, but it existed for Scotland and Ireland as much as it existed for Wales, and very little special attention was given to Wales in that respect. To show what little interest the British Museum had taken in matters relating to Wales, he might mention that a catalogue of Welsh books in the Museum Library had been made by a private gentleman and published at the expense of a private society. He did not desire to attack the British Museum in this regard. Its interests were world-wide, and it could not give proper attention to every district, therefore he did not blame the British Museum. He only drew attention to the fact that it was not of any substantial use as a museum for Wales. What Wales wanted was a national storehouse in which the antiquities of her race could be collected together, and which would also contain a national art gallery and national library.
Valuable collections relating to Wales had been scattered to the four winds from time to time; many private collections, which would have been readily given to an institution of this character, had been, owing to the nonexistence of such an institution, dispersed, in some cases under the auctioneer's hammer. He urged the right hon. Gentleman to remember that in institutions of this kind there was far more safety from fire than was the case in private collections. Two of the largest and most valuable collections in Wales had been destroyed by fire, and that was the fate which might overtake all the private collections which Wales possessed. Wales was a country of great natural beauty, and many artists had made it their home and had founded an Academy 355 of Art; they had done the best they could with the means at their disposal in times past, and he thought now the; time had come when some encouragement should be given to the great work they had taken in hand. There was no country nor any province of any country in Europe, with perhaps the exceptions of Russia and Turkey, which received less help from the State than did Wales in this matter. He knew he need not apply to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education for sympathy in this matter, because no one knew better than the right hon. Gentleman the high and important part a museum had in the educational system of a country. Some people were still under the impression that a museum was an institution for stuffed whales, bottled crabs, and collections of Maori spears all more or less covered with dust, but that idea was now exploded. A museum was now regarded in its educational aspect, and that was the way in which Wales desired to regard it to-day. Since 1880 she had formed a system o: education of her own of which her people were very proud, and all she asked now was that the Government should put the coping-stone on that system by giving Wales a due share of the museum grants of the United Kingdom.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable to make provision, similar to that made for Scotland and Ireland, for a National Museum in Wales."—(Mr. William Jones.)
§ MAJOR WYNDHAM-QUIN (Glamor-ganshire, S.)thought that the House would admit that a very clear case had been made out on behalf of the demand for; the establishment of a national museum for Wales. While he thoroughly concurred in the reasons already put for ward, he based his claim rather on the broad ground of national expediency. A great deal had been heard of late about education and the necessity for it, and however much they might differ as Parties, they were unanimously agreed that if the Empire was to retain the high position it now occupied among the nations of the world, the highest possible 356 standard of education must be within the reach of all classes of the community. Among the different branches of education, technical education held a high place, and in no way could technical education be better assisted than by the establishment of well-equipped museums throughout the country. Particularly should those parts be helped who were willing to help themselves. In no part of the United Kingdom had more zeal for, or greater devotion to, educational efficiency been shown than in Wales. The love for learning was not a mere modern characteristic of the Welsh people. Some of the oldest educational centres had been within the Principality, and at St. Bride's Major as far back as the eighth century, long before the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge were dreamt of, there existed a flourishing and opulent University capable of maintaining and instructing no fewer than 1,000 students.
Whatever might be their views as to the desirability of separate legislation for Wales, they must all remember that a distinct educational system had been accorded to Wales, and by a Unionist Government; that being so, he could not see on what principle of equity or justice the object they were now seeking could be denied, especially as a museum was the natural sequence of that particular educational system. The Welsh people had many interesting characteristics, and were, on the whole, a very intelligent people; they had a record of traditions going back into remote antiquity; they were a far older nation than the English; and they had ever been distinguished, not only for their love of learning but for the sacrifices they were prepared to make to maintain it. Surely, then, they were entitled to the consideration they now sought. The demand had been refused in the past on the ground that they had not been able to settle among themselves where the educational capital was to be. That difficulty had now been removed, and they had agreed to leave the selection to the Government. He earnestly hoped, therefore, the Government would accede to the unanimous request of the Welsh Members.
*THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)said this subject had been before the House on many occasions, and in pursuance of time honoured custom he, as the representative of the Board of Education, rose to express the sympathy of the Department and their inability to carry out the kindly intentions they possessed. In the past the Board of Education and the Welsh Members had really been at cross purposes. Welsh representatives had said that they wanted a museum representing the literature, arts, and manufactures of Wales; while the reply of the Board of Education had been that the museums at Edinburgh and Dublin were outside the purview of the Board, that they had nothing to do with Scotland or Ireland, that they were concerned with Wales only as a part of England and Wales, and that in that respect Wales got its full share of what the Board was able to do towards the establishment of museums over the country. The powers of the Board in this respect were very limited. The great museum with which the Board had to deal was that at South Kensington, which was devoted to the promotion of the study of science and art, and not only had a great collection of the works of science and of the history of science, and of the works of art and of the history of art in all its branches—a collection of great educational value—but was circulating museum, sending specimens and collections all round the country to local museums for the benefit of students of science and art in the districts concerned. Wales not only had its full share of the circulating element of the museum, but he had a letter from the museum at Cardiff saying that they had not room to receive all that the South Kensington authorities were prepared to send. The Board of Education could also contribute out of a small sum towards the purchase of objects for promoting the study of science and art. The sum was not large, but, such as it was, Wales received its share. That, then, was what the Board of Education could do, but that was not what the Welsh Members asked for, and the objects for which the Museums with which the Board of Education had to do existed were not the objects which the Welsh Members had in 358 view in this demand. Towards those objects the Board of Education could supply only what they had abundantly supplied in the past, viz., their sympathy; but the Treasury could do more. What the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would say he could not predict, but he had risen to explain that it was not from want of sympathy—the Board sympathised heartily with the object the Welsh Members had in view—but from want of capacity the Board of Education were unable to meet the requirements of the situation,
§ SIR ALFRED THOMAS (Glamorganshire E.) said they had again received much sympathy, but they wanted something more substantial. They wanted a little money, and he hoped the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would be able to make such a statement as would send them on their way rejoicing.
§ *SIR JOSEPH LAWRENCE (Monmouth Boroughs) said he wished, as the only Member present who represented Monmouthshire, which had both racial and historic affinities with Wales, to associate himself most heartily with the supporters of this Motion. There was a peculiar fitness in his supporting the Motion, as he championed the Government over the coal tax, and he would like to see Wales get back some of her own. The Secretary for the Board of Education had spoken as if this was to be only an educational museum. This museum was to be a great collection of national treasures, and, he hoped, would be so situated as to be easily accessible to his constituents in Monmouthshire. It should be a temple in which was enshrined whatsoever was instructive or of historical value to the people of the Principality. His constituents would have no objection to the museum being placed at Cardiff. The people of Monmouthshire were unanimous as to the advisability of there being a museum. As a proof of their interest in things historical, he named the case of the village of Caerleon, only four miles from Newport, where there was a very valuable collection of Roman antiquities housed in a museum built by private contributions; and at Caerwent, on the other side of Newport, excava- 359 tions were going on, and a fine collection of historic remains might be expected to be gleaned. Three years ago it Was his privilege to be in Paris, when a Welsh choir was taking part in musical exercises. There were choirs from Austria, Belgium, Germany, and other places. At first the Chairman of the Court of Judges was not for listening to this body of musical miners, but on hearing them he bore witness to the excellent artistic training of the Welsh people, and declared that Wales was the only artistic corner of the British Empire. As all Parties in that House seemed unanimous, he (the speaker) would not labour the question, but heartily joined with the mover of the Motion in the appeal he made to the Government.
*THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HAYES FISHER, Eulham)said that in almost every year since 1894 there had been a debate on this subject in the House, and the debate of this year presented exactly the same characteristics as the debates of former years. The Motion had been supported by speeches of great grace, charm, fascination, and sincerity, while on the part of the representative of the Board of Education sympathy had been expressed. He could not help thinking that he would be well advised to follow previous examples, and that he would perhaps be only walking into further pitfalls by attempting to take the matter beyond the stage of "sympathetic consideration" at which all his predecessors had left it. He had, however, come to the conclusion that, in spite of the eloquent speeches and sympathetic consideration, no progress could be reported; and he thought he knew the reason. There had been too little definiteness of aim, and a failure to follow up by concrete action and plan the abstract opinion so often expressed. Hon. Members had asked that similar provision in the matter of museum grants should be made for Wales to that which was made for Scotland and Ireland, but whenever they had argued that whatever reasons could be given in favour of Scotland or Ireland receiving such treatment might be urged 360 with equal propriety in the case of Wales, they had invariably been met with the jocular retort that there was no recognised capital in Wales in which a museum could be established. As regarded the capital of Wales, he admitted that this was a very important question, but it was not an insuperable obstacle, although he was not going to give his own opinion as to what place ought to be the capital of Wales. In the discussion, he caught the names of Cardiff, Newport, Pembroke, and other places which had been suggested as the capital by hon. Members. He congratulated the mover of the Motion upon having had the courage to name Cardiff as the capital of Wales, but he would not express any opinion upon this point. Neither would he attempt to ride off on the question of nationality. He would not enter into the argument as to whether Wales had similar claims to Scotland or Ireland on the ground of separate nationality, yet every one would agree in discerning, well-marked characteristics in Welsh, life, literature, and antiquities, and would agree that some kind of central, institution in Wales, such as a museum, might be a good medium for developing local pride and patriotism, and might warrant the expenditure of the money of the taxpayer. At the same time he could not accept the argument put forward by the hon. Member for Flint Boroughs in regard to the coal tax. If that argument were permitted he should be forced to subsidise foreign museums, as the coal-tax was paid by the foreigner. According to his argument, if the coal tax were repealed, then: the grant to the Welsh museum ought to be withdrawn. He was aware that the hon. Member for Flint Boroughs had advanced many sound arguments before, but he had now advanced in regard to the coal tax what he considered to be a very fallacious one. If it were possible for the local interest in this movement to settle their capital so much the better: but if they could not define their capital they might at least define their demands, and make up their minds what sort of an institution they required, and whether they required an art gallery, a library for the valuable manuscripts, a geological in useum, or a mineralogical museum.
361 There had been delay in dealing with this matter, but what had the Chancellor of the Exchequer up to this time had before him? Why nothing but the very fluid Motions of this House that Wales should be placed on a similar footing with England and Ireland. It was not the business of the Treasury to take notice of Motions of this kind, and formulate schemes for England, Scotland, or Wales. It was not the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide a museum, which had never been defined, for a collection which had never been collected, or to go into the market to purchase objects of art for a Welsh museum. He contended that that was not the position of the Treasury, and it was not the position which any Government should be expected to take up. If the Welsh Members of Parliament really desired to make further progress with this matter they should endeavour to define and formulate their request with more accuracy. If any museum or anything of the sort should be set up in Wales it had been suggested in previous debates, but not to-night, that objects of great interest associated with Wales should be brought back from London and placed in such a museum in Wales. He did not think such a request would be made by any patriotic Welshman, because everyone who was proud of Wales would also be proud of the fact that some of those evidences of Welsh antiquity and ait should be placed in the great national museum in which they had as great a share as Englishmen, Scotchmen, or Irishmen.
He agreed that if a museum were set up in Wales certain objects might be returned to that country where they would be more seen and utilised. Hon. Members for Wales asked that they should be placed in a similar position to Dublin and Edinburgh, and knowing those galleries himself be did not wonder that they were envious of them. He would remind hon. Members, however, that the origin and growth of those libraries took place under very difficult circumstances and that the growth was of a gradual kind. Both in Dublin and Edinburgh those galleries and collections owed their origin to a large extent to 362 private energy and benefaction. The State did not initiate them, although it came in and grafted grants upon local efforts. He would recommend that example to hon. Members who took a great interest in this question. Perhaps in time an institution such as they had in Edinburgh and Dublin might grow up in Wales. The hon. Member for Carnarvon held out hopes that local contributions would be forthcoming if they could get any encouragement from Imperial sources. His hon. friend behind him said he felt sure that the patriotism of Wales would produce a great contribution to any large centre or storehouse for works of art in Wales. The hon. Member for East Glamorgan had stated that in Wales there were a great many ancient manuscripts and other valuable documents, and that in consequence of fire two large collections had already perished; and he further stated that if a large building were erected many gentlemen would be glad to be relieved of the responsibility of keeping them. Those opinions held out hopes that if the Government gave some contribution it would be met by a corresponding effort on the part of those patriotic Welshmen who were really interested in finding some such centre.
Under the circumstances, sympathising as he did with the general object of the Motion, and being desirous of carrying the matter at least one stage forward, he would suggest to hon. Members that those who took an interest in this question on both sides of the House, and outside the House, should form a representative Committee, and that they should then define as closely as they could the nature of the institution suggested and the objects which they wished it to serve. He would advise them, in the first place, to define accurately whether they wanted a library or a museum for a geological collection. [An HON. MEMBER: That will depend upon the amount of money.] They might define whether they wanted a museum for a mineralogical collection, or an art gallery or a building for a general storehouse for antiquities.
363 He asked for the production of some such substantive scheme. It would also be wise to show that they were desirous and capable of forming some kind of collection which was distinctly and essentially Welsh as a nucleus, and when they had agreed upon some such scheme, if they could formulate an estimate showing the capital expenditure and the annual outlay required, then they would be in a position to approach the Government with a substantive scheme upon which some definite reply could be given. Of course the building ought to be adapted to extension, although at first they should have regard only to the actual needs and to the probable developments for the next few years. As a most important condition they should use their best endeavours to show some local contribution either in money or in kind. He believed that if a strong Committee of that kind-armed with a definite scheme of moderate dimensions, came to the Chancellor of the Exchequer they would meet with something more than sympathetic consideration, and they would feel that they had that night laid the foundation stone of a building in which future generations of Welshmen might feel a legitimate pride.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said that Welsh Members were exceedingly obliged to the hon. Member for Fulham, because he had really by his statement carried the matter a considerable step further. The hon. Gentleman had complained rather of the vagueness of their suggestions, but he was not quite sure that the hon. Member's suggestions were not equally vague. What he understood the Secretary to the Treasury to say was, that if the Welsh Members submitted a practical proposal to the 364 Treasury, they would receive a money grant, and that he was authorised to pledge the Treasury to that extent.
§ *MR. HAYES FISHER replied that he could not, as Financial Secretary, pledge the Treasury to that extent. He had had some conversation on the subject with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and although he was not prepared to give an absolute pledge, he might say that he was authorised by the right hon. Gentleman to state that if hon. Members would frame some definite estimate of the capital and the annual outlay required, it would receive something more than sympathetic consideration.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said he understood the hon. Member's hesitation in giving a pledge, but he thought they all knew what was meant. He did not think there would be any difficulty at all, for they would all be preparing their various schemes. They had heard the usual speech from the Board of Education. The representative of the Board of Education said that whereas Cardiff used to get £36 last year, it actually got £74 now. They had heard of the great increase in the national expenditure, and probably this accounted for it to a certain extent. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would use his influence to curb this reckless extravagance in Wales. In regard to this museum he did not think there would be any difficulty about the capital. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury had suggested that they ought to go on and grow up gradually, and when they had grown up to a proper size, the Treasury would give them a little pocket money. In Cardiff they had already 365 got what the hon. Member had asked for. They had got a splendid connection, which was increasing from year to year, of old Welsh manuscripts. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury had asked them to define their request, and state whether they wanted a museum, what sort of museum, whether they wanted a museum of mummies, or geological curiosities. He asked them to state whether they wanted a library, and what sort of library, or whether they would prefer an art gallery. His reply to that was that they wanted the whole lot.
§ He agreed with what his hon. friend the Member for Newport had stated, and if the Treasury gave them the money they would spend it properly, and where they saw a good object they would buy it. There were curiosities which did not find their way to the British Museum which would find their way to a Welsh Museum. All that ought to be left to the body which would have control of the money, and they should not dictate as to whether £1,000 must be devoted to buying mummies or anything else. That was not the way to establish a museum, for they must trust the body created to establish something which would be useful. They had got now an Education Act in Wales, for which they were not particularly grateful, but here was an opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman to grease the wheels of the Act, which were, creaking very badly at present. Under that Act they were establishing a kind of central Committee representing the whole of the Welsh counties. He did not wish the Secretary to the Treasury to say that the museum should be at Cardiff, Pembroke or Monmouth, but he would suggest he should leave that question to 366 the central body. His own opinion was that it would go to Cardiff, because it would be a case of "To him that hath shall be given." He had no doubt about that, but nevertheless it was not for the House to judge upon a matter of that kind. That was simply a local matter, and Cardiff had shown more enterprise than any other part of the Principality in such matters, and he had just heard that they were on the point of establishing a museum. The hon. Gentleman might rely upon it that if he gave a grant of money to Wales the Welsh people would double, treble, and even quadruple it. Whenever money had been given by the Treasury on the honourable understanding that the Welsh people were to find more in order to make it a success, they had never been disappointed in that respect. He was aware that £4,000 had been given to their colleges, but that was a mere pittance compared with what the Welsh people had found themselves. He desired to thank the hon. Member for the promise he had made.
§ MR. WILLIAM JONES said that after the more than sympathetic promise of a contribution, with the permission of his hon. friend who seconded, he would ask leave to withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.