STANDING ORDERS. (Hansard, 30 July 1903)

* THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith)
said the period of the session had arrived when the House should consider the Standing Orders for private business, and to make such alterations in them as might be necessary. The list of Amendments which appeared on the Paper was a long one, but he thought there was nothing controversial in it, or anything that need detain the House Last year a Committee was appointed to consider this question with a view to such alteration of the Standing Orders as might be desirable in the interests of efficiency, economy, and general convenience that Committee had made a great many recommendations and the Amendments which he had put down on the Paper were to 988 carry out some of those recommendations. Others it was impossible to carry out without legislation. He thought the better way would be to make a short explanatory statement with regard to each Amendment before the Question was put from the Chair. He moved to amend Standing Order 29 in order to provide that in parishes which had no parish council the promoters of any Bill affecting matters within the parish should deposit such plans as might be required by Standing Orders with the chairman of the parish meeting, in order that he might be informed as to how his parish might be affected.

§ LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE, (Wiltshire, Cricklade)
Thought that this would be a great improvement to small parishes, which at the present time were put to great disadvantage in regard to Private Bills At the same time he moved that the best plan would be to get these 989 small parishes to merge with their larger neighbours. He supported the Amendment. Standing Order 29, relating to Private Business, read, and amended, "in paragraph (D), by inserting in line 2, after the words 'Parish Council,' the words 'with the chairman of the parish meeting and.'"—(The Chairman of ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment was destined to carry out the recommendations of the Committee to substitute December 17 for December 21 as the date for depositing Petitions for Private Bills in the House. He said December 17 was the date in the House of Lords.

§ MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)
saw no reason why the date for the House of Commons and for the House of Lords should not he the same, but suggested that it would be perhaps better to make the date the 21st. There was a great difficulty very often in getting municipal Bills ready as early as the 17th. The elections took place on the 1st November and the councils met for the first time on the 9th, and the right hon. Gentleman would quite appreciate the fact that the Committees had to be got into working order, and it was very often difficult to get a Bill ready by the 17th. Of course he would not pres, the matter against the convenience of the public departments, but municipal corporations promoted a great many Bills in this House, and he thought this small advantage should be given them.

§ SIR CHARLES RENSHAW (Renfrewshire, W.)
expressed surprise at the view taken by the Member opposite, who seemed to forget that notice of all these Bills had to be given in the month of November. The date they proposed to fix now did not, therefore, affect the question, so far as the municipality was concerned, of the elections or the duties of the Committees. He believed the proposed Amendment would have a most beneficial effect. Standing Order 32 read, and amended, "in line 5, by leaving out the word '21st,' and inserting the word '17th.'"—(The Chairman of ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment was designed, like the last, to get the promoters to get on with their 990 work. The object was to compel promoters of Bills to hold the Wharncliffe meeting within a reasonable period after the First Reading of the Bill. He hoped the result would be that the Committees would be able to commence work at an earlier period of the session than had been the case hitherto. Standing Order 62 read, and amended, "in line 2, by leaving out the words 'after the first reading thereof,' and inserting the words within live weeks of the date on 'which the Petition for the same was endorsed by the Examiner.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next three Amendments were really only in order to bring the Standing Orders into accordance with the existing course of procedure. If accepted it would permit the counsel for Mr. Speaker to take counsel with the learned Chairman and his counsel as to the division of the Bills. They had also defined a date, the 28th, January, for the drawing of Bills which had hitherto taken place on the first day of the session. Standing order 79 read, and amended, "in line 1, after the word 'Means,' by inserting the words 'or the Counsel to Mr. Speaker,' and by leaving out the words the commencement of each session,' and inserting the words on or before the 28th day of January in each year.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) In line 3, by inserting after the word 'Lords,' the words 'or with his Counsel.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment carried the recommendation of the Committee, and designed to slightly reconstruct the Court of Referees. Under the present order the number of the Court of Referees was three. Mr. Speaker as a fact appointed seven, and this proposal was to bring the Standing Orders in accordance with the facts.

§ MR. WHITLEY
asked, under this proposal were the duties to be divided Would the same persons as were on the Board of Referees be on the unopposed Bill Committee, and, if so, what distinction would be drawn before the Board?

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER,
by leave of the House, explained that the duties of the Board of Referees and the Committe of unopposed Private Bills were not identical. The Referees appointed by Mr. Speaker were gentlemen of great 991 legal ability, who considered strict questions of law, and all this amendment proposed was to enlarge the Court of Referees chiefly because in the past there had been difficulty in obtaining a quorum. The new proposal with regard to the Committee on unopposed Bills was this. At the present moment, whenever the Committee was set up by the Standing Order it had to consist of the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Member whose name was on the back of the Bill, and a Member who had no interest in the matter. He had considered the recommendation of the Committee on the matter, and had thought it best to have a panel to select from. He had consulted the Chairman of the Committee of Selection on the subject, who first seemed to think it would not be possible, but subsequently came to the conclusion that it would be possible to form a panel, especially if hon. gentlemen now serving as referees would consent, if asked, to serve on the Unopposed Bill Committee. Standing Order 87, read and repealed, Ordered that the Chairman of Ways and Means, and the Deputy Chairman, with not less than seven other persons, who shall be Members of this House, and shall be appointed by Mr. Speaker for such periods as he shall think fit, shall be Referees of the house on Private Bills, and shall have the assistance Of the Counsel to Mr. Speaker; such Referees to form one or more Courts, three at least to be required to constitute each Court."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House.

* Mr. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment was simply to bring the Standing Order in accord with the fact. He begged to move. Standing Order 98 read and amended, "In line 3, by leaving out the word 'seven' and inserting the word 'ten.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means )

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
The next he had already explained in reply to the hon. Member for Halifax.

§ MR. WHITLEY
agreed that it was extremely desirable to improve the method of dealing with unopposed standing Bills. All he desired to suggest was that some method should be found to co-ordinate the work. It would be unfortunate if the Police and Sanitary 992 Committee and the Unopposed Bill Committee worked on different lines.

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER said
Any unopposed Bill having police and sanitary clauses would go of course to the Police and Sanitary Committee. It was not intended to interfere with that. He quite agreed that the practice in these matters should be uniform. Standing Order 109 read and amended, "In line 2, by leaving out from the word 'them,' to the end of the Standing Order, and inserting 'to the Committee on Unopposed Bills, which shall be composed of five Members, namely, the Chairman of Ways and Means (who when present shall be ex-officio Chairman of every such Committee), the Deputy Chairman, two Members from time to time selected by the Chairman of Ways and Means from a panel to be appointed by the Committee of Selection at the commencement of every session, and counsel to Mr. Speaker, and three shall be the quorum thereof.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment was to leave out a Standing Order dealing with road Bills, which did not now exist, and which would therefore become obsolete. Standing Order 110, read, and repealed.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next was a novel one; the idea was that they might save a little time by compelling all petitions to be deposited on or before 12th February. Standing Order 129, real and amended, "In line 6, by leaving out the words, not later than ten clear days after the First Reading of such and inserting the words 'on or before the 12th day of February,' and at the end of the Standing Order to add the words, Provided that in the case of, (a) any Bill brought from the Howe of Lords; and (b) any Bill as to which compliance with the Standing Order as to the time for depositing the Bill has been dispensed with; and (c) any Bill promoted by the London County Council introduced under Standing Order 194; a petition against the Bill may be deposited at any time not later than ten clear days after the First Beading of the Bill.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment was also a new proposal, recommended by the Select Committee last year in order to obviate a difficulty in which they found them, selves. It was a case in which a question arose as to the rates charged for 993 the carriage or, bicycles, and the Cyclists' Touring Club presented a petition on the ground that the rate was much too high. Their locus standi was objected to, and the Court of Referees decided that they had no power to give there one, because they were neither a chamber of commerce, nor a chamber of agriculture nor any similar body. Seeing that the Cyeclists' Touring Club represented cyclists generally, the decision was very hard upon them, but in fact their position was subsequently justified by the action of the House in striking out the excessive rates complained of and putting in reasonable ones. He begged to move.

§ SIR CHARLES DILKE
said there had been private Bills before the House in which bodies representing in some cases employers and in other eases employed had some distinct interest, but had not found it possible to be represented, and such cases had been dealt, with by an Amendment of Standing Orders. That had been done in the case o' the mines, but it had not been possible to do it in the case of the textile employers and employees of Lancashire, and he would suggest whether words could not be inserted to enable the representation of employers or employed in any particular trade. This matter had been considered by the Speaker's counsel, who wits, he thought, somewhat, favourable to some such alteration.

MR. J. W. LOWTHER
hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not move an Amendment. The point was a controversial one, and he had deliberately refrained from raising it on this occasion. It ought to be on the Paper some little time in order to give those interested an opportunity of studying it.

§ * SIR CHARLES DILKE
said he felt the force of the appeal, but he had pointed out a case of hardship which ought to be deal with. It was a case rather for the textile representatives, and he would not therefore move an Amendment.

§ MR. BRYCE
hoped that when the question of amending 123 B came on, the Chairman of the Committee would 994 consider the question of allowing persons not pecuniarily interested to represent certain phases of public policy on which they were entitled to be heard by reason of their experience and position. Standing Order 133A read, and amended, in line 1, by leaving out the words 'Where a chamber of commerce or agriculture or other similar body, sufficiently representing a particular trade or business,' and inserting the words Where any body of persons corporate or incorporate sufficiently representing a particular trade, business, or interest.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) In line 4, by leaving out the words 'or business,' and inserting the words 'business or interest.'" (The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment had been pressed on him by the Chairman of the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and its object was to give the Joint Committee of a Council the right to be heard. Standing Order 134B read, and amended, in line 3, by inserting after the word 'Borough,' the words being a Joint Committee of Councils of administrative counties or County Boroughs.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR J. W. LOWTHER
said the object of the next Amendment was to carry out a recommendation of the Select Committee enabling a person in the occupation of a house in a street at right angles or in the immediate vicinity of a street when it was proposed to lay a tramway to have a locus standi and to appear.

§ Mr. WHITLEY
hoped the Amendment would not pressed. Petitioners who had only a vague interest might use their powers against the promoters for the sold purpose of blackmail. It would be a very dangerous thing to enlarge the sphere of objection frontages in that vague way. 995 It would lead to considerably increased expense. He hoped the right hon. Gentlemen would reconsider the matter.

* Mr. J. W. LOWTHER
said he was not aware the Amendment would meet with opposition, and under the circumstances he would not press it. He held that the referees should have power to determine whether petitions from round-the-corner petitioners should have a locus standi, but he was not prepared to frame the words on the spur of the moment, and he would see if later on he could bring it up in an amended form. Standing Order 137 read and repealed."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

§ Mr. WHITLEY
said be was in favour of this Amendment, but he feared that the wording would exclude from its operation municipal Bills where the promoters supplied themselves as well as other persons.

* Mr. J. W. LOWTHLER
said the point had been carefully considered by the Board of Trade, and he did not think there would be any difficulty such as the hon. Member seemed to fear.

§ LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE
thought the words were on the whole sufficient. This was one of the most important and valuable changes proposed, because these Electric Power Bills were increasing in number, and many difficult points had had to be dealt with in the past year. The clause would save a great deal of expense. Ordered, That in the ease of any Bill relating to the generation of electricity for supply to persons or bodies other than the promoters, the Bill shall not be reported by the Committee until a Report from the Board of Trade on the powers sought has been laid before the Committee; and the Committee shall report specially to the House in what manlier the recommendations or observations in the Report of the Board of Trade, and also in what manner the Clauses of the Bill relating to the powers sought, have been dealt with by the Committee."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House.

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the next Amendment might almost be called a consequential Amendment. It would save 996 the necessity of sending a Bill twice before the Examiners. Standing Order 193 read, and amended in line 2, by leaving out the words 'first presented, which shall have been duly,' and inserting words 'which shall be.' In line 3, by leaving out the words 'and indorsed by one of the Examiners.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MB. J. W. LOWTHER
said this next Amendment dealt with the date before which Provisional Orders must be read a first time. At present it was fixed for the 1st June, but it sometimes happened if Whitsuntide occurred before that, to be necessary to suspend Standing Orders in order to pass a Bill. This would obviate that necessity.

§ SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON (Preston)
suggested that it would he less ambiguous to provide that the First Reading should take place before the House rose for the Whitsuntide recess.

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
dissented, and said Whitsuntide was a date which anyone could discover by looking at the calendar.

§ Mr. WHITLEY
hoped the Treasury would be induced to apply a similar provision to Money Bills. Standing Order 193xA read, and amended at end by leaving out the words the 1st day of June,' and inserting the word Whitsuntide.'"—( The Chairman of Ways and of Means.) Ordered, That all Private Bills shall on the day previous to the day fixed for their being laid upon the Table of the House he deposited in the Private Bill Office, and shall be laid by one of the Clerks of that Office on the Table of the House, together with a list of such Bills."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House. Ordered, That where the Examiner has endorsed the Petition for a Private Bill Standing Orders complied the Bill shall be presented by being laid upon the Table of the House not later than one clear day after such endorsement, or if when it is endorsed the House is not sitting, then not later than one clear day after the first sitting thereof subsequent to such endorsement, and if the House is not sitting on the latest day on which the Bill ought to be laid upon the Table of the House, then the Bill shall be so laid on the first day on which the House again sits. Where the Examiner has reported respect to any Private Bill that the Standing Orders have not been complied with, and the Report has been referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders, and the Select 997 Committee on Standing Orders have reported that the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with, the Bill shall be presented by being laid upon the Table of the House not later than one clear day after the House has given leave to the parties to proceed with the Bill."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Ordered, That, this Order be a Standing Order of this House. Ordered, That a Private Bill shall, when laid on the Table of the House, be deemed to have been read a first, time and ordered to he read a second time, or referred to the Examiners, as the case may be, on the day On which it is so laid, and shall be recorded in the Votes as having been so read."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House. Standing Orders 195, 196, and 197 read, and repealeild."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said the idea of the next Amendment was to enable the Committee upstairs to divide any Bill into two Bills, and separate the opposed from the unopposed Orders. The Committee would then be able to send down to the House the unopposed parts, and could then proceed without any further delay with the consideration of the opposed parts upstairs. That seemed to him to be a very convenient plan to pursue with regard to Provisional Orders. In the group of Provisional Orders contained in one Bill, some of them might be heavily contentious and the rest unopposed, and it seemed a hard fate for the unopposed Orders to have to wait for a considerable time while discussion was taking place with regard to the opposed Orders. Standing Order 208A read, and amended, by "adding at end the words 'and may, if they think fit, divide the Bill into two Bills, dealing with the opposed and unopposed Orders or Certificates respectively and report the same separately.'"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER
said that with regard to the other Amendments on the Paper, he had satisfied himself that they were merely consequential, and he thought that they might be put as a single Question from the Chair. Standing Order 33 read, and amended "in line 1, by leaving out the word '21st,' and inserting the word 18th.' Standing Order 34 read, and amended "in line 1, by leaving out the word '21st,' and inserting the word 18th.' 998 Standing Order 63 read, and amended "in lines 4 and 5, by leaving out the words 'after the First Reading thereof be referred,' and inserting the words within five weeks of the date on which the Petition for the same was indorsed by the Examiner be referred again.' Standing Order 66 read, and amended "in line 1, by inserting after the word (Bill),' the words (originating in this House either as).' In line 9, by leaving out the words 'before the Second Reading in this House,' and inserting the words within five weeks of the date on which the Petition for the same was indorsed by the Examiner.' Standing Order 67 read, and amended, "in line 4, by leaving out the words after the First' Reading, thereof be referred,' and Inserting the words within five weeks of the date on which the Petition for the same was indorsed by the Examiner be referred again.' Standing Order 84 read, and amended, "in line 7, by leaving out the words '33^a and 60A,' and inserting the words '34A.,' and by leaving out the word '21st,' and inserting the word '18th.' Standing Order 92 read, and amended, "in lines 3 and 4, by leaving out the words (and after the Petition for the Bill shall have been duly presented).' Standing Order 104 read, and repealed, Ordered, "That the General Committee Oil Railway and Canal Bills shall refer every unopposed Railway or Canal Bill to the Committee on Unopposed Bills. Ordered, "That this Order be a Standing Order of this House. Standing Order 107 read, and amended, "In line 2, by leaving out the words 'not later than ten clear days after the First Reading thereof,' and inserting the words within the Omtime appointed by Standing Order 129.' Standing Order 194B read, and amended "in line 10, by leaving out the word '21st,' and inserting the word '17th.' In line 17, by leaving out the words 'The Petition for the Bill may be presented forthwith and.' In line 18, by inserting after the word '(shall),' the Words as soon as may be after the deposit of the Petition.' In lines 18 and 19, by leaving out the words, not later than the second sitting day after the presentation of the Petition.' Standing Order 210 read, and amended, "In line 2, by leaving out the words, 'Not later than ten clear days after the First Reading of such Bill,' and inserting the words Within the required time.' Standing Order 230 read and amended, "In line 3, by leaving out the word, '21st,' and inserting the word, 17th.' In line 11, by leaving out the Word, '21st,' and inserting the word, '17th.' Table of Fees read, and amended— In line 5, by leaving out the words, 'the Petition for.' In line 12, by leaving out the word, Petition,' and inserting the word, 'presentation"—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)