HC Deb 22 July 1903 vol 125 cc1529-49

As amended (by the Standing Committee), further considered.

Proceedings resumed on Amendment proposed to the Bill. In page 65, line 12, in lien of words omitted [22nd July], to insert the words "eight of the flock.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."


formally moved that nine o'clock should be substituted for eight o'clock as the earliest hour of opening.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Bill— To leave out the word 'eight' and insert the word 'nine.'"—(Sir J. Stirling-Maxwell.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'eight' stand part of the proposed Amendment to the Bill."


said he thought it a curious proceeding to move an important alteration of this kind without one word of explanation. The House was in the dark as to what the reasons were for such an Amendment. The Lord Advocate had advanced excellent reasons for the hour being eight o'clock, but no good reason had been given for this change. It seemed to be the general idea among the Scottish Members that no Scotchman could resist the temptation of going into a licensed house, but in his opinion Scotchmen were just as well able to control themselves in this regard as Englishmen or Irishmen. It was undoubtedly a burdensome hardship that grocers who possessed licences should not be allowed to open before nine o'clock, because the wives of those who went to work at half-past five or six o'clock in the morning were compelled to make their purchases early. He thought the present restrictions were quite sufficient to guard against any excesses in this regard, and he thought, no good arguments having been adduced in favour of the Amendment, the House of Commons would only be doing its duty by rejecting it.


said there was not much use in prolonging this discussion. Hon. Members opposite were fully aware of the fact that they were masters of the situation. The opinion expressed by Scottish Members had been overruled by people who knew nothing about the particular conditions of Scotland, and whose opinions, it might be, were biased by their having a personal interest in the matter.


, interposing, denied that he had any personal interest in the matter. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh."] He had put the case of persons who formed, no doubt, a minority in Scotland, but whose case ought not on that account to be refused a hearing. Gentlemen opposite might give him credit for sometimes taking up a case in which he was not interested.


pointed out that it was out of order to impute an improper motive to an hon. Member.


said he had not imputed any such motive. He had said that the House had arguments repeatedly from hon. Gentlemen who were biased by the fact that they themselves were interested. All of us were liable to be biased by our own particular position. In conclusion, he expressed his regret at the attitude maintained by the Lord Advocate in this matter. The right hon. Gentleman had himself placed on the Paper a proposal in favour of the hour of nine o'clock.


said he did not complain of the tone of the hon. and learned Member's speech. He recognised that he (the Lord Advocate) had tried his best to accommodate very conflicting interests. The only complaint he had to make was this—hon. Members, with perfectly good motives, forgot that, after all, the Bill in its inception was a compromise Bill. The Government, in putting forward their proposals, never supposed that they were going to please everybody. All they claimed for the Bill was that it was a genuine attempt at temperance reform, and he believed that the verdict of Scotland, when the Bill was passed, would be that the Government had really contributed to the cause of temperance. But they never supposed they were going to conciliate the diverse interests involved in the Bill. He could recognise no moral difference between the interest on one side or on the other. He recognised the interest of any philanthropist, but he also recognised the interest of the man who was carrying on an honest trade, and he did not see that he was bound to sacrifice his opinions to those of any philanthropist. The Bill, as he had said, was a compromise Bill, and he had to face opposition from both quarters. He had been far too long a member of a Grand Committee not to know that it was an extraordinary arena in which anybody might very easily have a fall, and that the decisions come to in the Grand Committee did not always reflect the opinion of the House. Why should the eighty or eighty five members of the Grand Committee decide questions of great policy in such a way that they were not to be allowed to discuss them when they came down to the House? As to the time-worn cry that the opinion of the Scottish Members was over-ruled by the English Members in the House, he had heard that so often that he paid no more attention to it than to the old cry of "wolf." He had no doubt that the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries had voted in many a division when he had not given them the benefit of his attendance during the debate. As to this particular Amendment hon. Members seemed to forget what his difficulties were. He had put down the Amendment because he wanted to see whether it would be a compromise which would be generally acceptable, but he did so along with another determination to which he had come as to the hours of closing in the evening. He had thrown in the weight of the Government against his hon. friend behind him, who spoke in support of his present position. Hon. Members seemed to forget the extraordinary difficulty of the situation. He agreed that there might be cases where the opening of the public-house in the morning was a temptation to the working man, but they had got to consider the whole situation throughout the country. When they came to what was called the predominance of Scottish opinion, if hon. Members asked their constituents whether they thought it would be for their convenience to cut off all forms of getting liquor before nine o'clock, he believed they would find that Scottish opinion was the other way. He had no hesitation in saying that throughout the length and breadth of Scotland that the trade of the grocers would be practically hampered if they did not allow them to open at eight o'clock. He had to consider what was just and right not only for one section of the public, but for the community as a whole, and he had come to the conclusion that the best thing he could do was to make the concession he had made as to the later hour of closing, and at the same time to stick to the hour of opening which had obtained in Scotland all these years—namely, eight o'clock.

MR. BUCHANAN (Perthshire, E.)

said that all Scottish Members asked was that the Lord Advocate should adhere to his own Amendment, allowing a discretion up to nine o'clock, and which must be taken to express the Resolution he had come to as the Member of the Government in charge of the Bill. He, as a Scottish Member, resented the interference of certain hon. Members representing English constituencies, who naturally considered the subject from a different point of view. And as to the cynical sneer at the time-worn cry of the opinion of Scottish Members, what were Scottish Members there for except to voice Scottish opinion? It was the time-worn cry of Scottish Members that ought to decide Scottish questions in this House. It was absurd for the responsible Minister for Scotland in this House to sneer at the opinion of Scottish Members. Scottish Members in this House had an overwhelming case for the cry they made.

*MR. SHAW-STEWART (Renfrewshire, E.)

said he thought that a large majority of Scottish Members were in favour of this Amendment. They had, up to the present, only heard the voice of one Scottish Member, besides the right hon. Gentleman himself, who had raised his voice against this Amendment. He believed one hon. Member for Edinburgh did advocate a glass of beer for breakfast in the morning. The speech of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock Burghs must have carried conviction to all who heard it. The hon. Member explained how working men arriving late at big works were locked out and had no other place to go to but the public-house. If that was the experience of his hon. friend the Member for Kilmarnock Burghs, surely the same experience obtained over the length and breadth of Scotland. That was a very strong argument in favour of the Amendment providing that public-houses should open at nine instead of eight o'clock. There was another argument which made them anxious to discuss this question and to divide upon it, and it was that until to-day they were under the impression that the Lord Advocate was going to move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper, and they were all quite satisfied to accept his Amendment as reasonable. There was, perhaps, one class upon whom it would have fallen hard, namely, the licensed grocers, but an Amendment standing in his name would have enabled licensed grocers to have sent out their goods at eight o'clock.


said that never in his life had he received so many telegrams as he had done that day protesting against this Amendment.


said his right hon. friend ought to be too old a campaigner to be influenced by telegrams. He believed that the Lord Advocate was anxious to do justice to all parties, and he had endeavoured to do so on the present occasion, but, in arriving at the decision he had done, he was sure he would not have the majority of the votes of Scottish Members with him.


said he was sorry the Lord Advocate had not given them a more adequate excuse for his proposal. The present Government were so tottering and weak that they could not receive a few telegrams without giving way. The Lord Advocate had gone away from his own Amendment, and had given no reason for doing so except that he had received a certain number of telegrams. The Minister for Scotland appeared to have the greatest contempt for the opinion of Scottish Members. He believed that three - fourths of the Members representing Scotland were in favour of later opening in the morning. He should be very curious to see whether Edinburgh was going to rest satisfied with the position taken up by its representative that the capital of Scotland was to be the one place represented in the House of Commons which was against later opening so far as public-houses were concerned. He should await the result with interest, because he doubted whether that was the real position in Edinburgh. The strongest argument for later opening was a very simple one. Working men mostly went to work at six o'clock, and their break-fact hour was between eight and nine o'clock. If the public-houses were open, instead of going home the men would probably go to the nearest public-house and have breakfast there, followed by a certain amount of liquor. It was the practical experience of employers in Scotland that once working men got to the public-house during the breakfast hour they were practically useless for the rest of the day. It was the duty of a Government pretending to be doing something for temperance in Scotland to lessen the temptation to working men at that hour of the morning. He was sorry that the Lord Advocate had allowed himself to be prevailed upon by the English legion in this matter, and he had allowed their influence to outweigh his judgment by taking up a position which would not be supported by Scottish opinion.


said that nothing had surprised him more in this debate than the character attributed to the working men of Scotland. He claimed to have some acquaintance with Scottish working men, and undoubtedly there was not a single feature in the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs which he could identify as being characteristic of them. The hon. Member had said something about them drinking whiskey at eight o'clock in the morning. Did he mean to say that that was the habit of the working men in Scotland? If he did, all he had to say was that it was contrary to his experience of them.


Then why do you want to keep the public-houses open?


said he could only speak from his own experience, and upon that experience he wished to enter a protest against the character which had been given to Scotch working men in this respect during the present debate.


said he was sure the hon. Baronet did not wish to misrepresent him. He did not say anything of the kind. What he said was that there were Scottish working men who could not stand the temptation of being in a public-house at that hour of the morning.


said that his right hon. friend the Member for North-East Manchester drew a picture of a man coming home early in the morning to whom a glass of whiskey proved irresistible. So much for Manchester working men, but he was sure that was not the case in the country districts of Scotland. Although he had received no telegrams upon this subject, he had received many letters from individuals with whom he was acquainted, and those letters pointed out the extreme inconvenience which would arise if the Lord Advocate gave way to the pressure put upon him. There was one other feature to which he, as an old Member of the House of Commons, begged to enter his earnest protest, and that was that these Grand Committees, which were a comparative innovation in Parliamentary procedure, should claim a monopoly of infallibility, as if every decision they arrived at during the luncheon hour or other time was to be treated by the House of Commons as infallible; indeed it seemed to be a kind of blasphemy to question the propriety of decisions arrived at upstairs. He thought the Report stage of any Bill was the proper one to revise the decisions arrived at upstairs, and he trusted the Lord Advocate would adhere to his original intention.

MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)

said that as a challenge had been thrown out he should like to say that so far as his experience went the opening of public-houses in the early morning was a great source of trouble. Speaking as one who went a good deal amongst the working classes he could testify that this was one of the greatest sources of evil amongst them. He had been in public-houses himself in the early morning, and he had seen thousands of instances of British working men losing their employment by going into public-houses at eight o'clock in the morning. The Lord Advocate did not appear to know his own mind, for he placed a reasonable Amendment on the Paper, and at the instance of hon. Members behind him, who were always ready to bring up Amendments against the cause of temperance, he withdrew it.


said that was not the case.


said the right hon. Gentleman stated that he had no settled conviction upon this point.


I never used any such phrase in my life.


said the right hon. Gentleman did not appear to know his own mind for many days together. This Amendment was neither in the interests of temperance nor in the interests of the people of Scotland.


pointed out that in the Bill, as it came from the Committee upstairs, the period of opening was to be not earlier than eight o'clock and not later than ten o'clock, and when the Lord Advocate suggested nine o'clock it was agreed to as a compromise. Therefore the whole of the Committee upstairs were obviously in favour of nine o'clock, because ten o'clock included it. The Committee upstairs were of opinion that it should be left to the licensing authority to say whether it should be eight o'clock or nine o'clock. They were now to proceed to a division and the Lord Advocate, with the assistance of English and Irish votes, would vote down the opinion of the people of Scotland, although the circumstances in regard to this question in England and Ireland were totally different to Scotland. In Scotland thay had Sunday closing, but there was not an hon. Member representing a Scottish constituency who would venture to vote for the opening of publichouses on Sunday. It was not fair, in a matter which so materially affected the interests of Scotland, that they should be outvoted by hon. Members from other parts of the United Kingdom where the circumstances were entirely different.


claimed that hon. Members opposite did not express the real feeling of Scotland upon this matter. It might be perfectly true that the majority of hon. Members representing Scotland were going to vote for nine o'clock, but that did not prove that that was the feeling of Scotland. He doubted whether half-a-dozen Scottish Members had ever told their constituencies that they intended to vote for later opening.


They have always said so at every election.


said that the hon. Members might have done so, but he doubted whether half-a-dozen Scottish Members had done it. He had never heard this question discussed in Scotland at all. He had heard plenty of discussion as to whether in the larger towns they should close at ten o'clock if they liked, but the question of ten o'clock opening in the morning had never been mooted in Edinburgh. There was no mention of it before the Royal Commission, and it was not alluded to either in the

Majority or the Minority Report. He did not believe that this question had been considered in Scotland at all. He had heard a good deal of discussion upon this subject, but he had never heard any allusion to the later opening of public-houses or of licensed grocers' premises until an Amendment was proposed in Committee the other day. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock had spoken of thrusting upon the trade an obligation to open at unprofitable hours. He had received several dozen letters upon this subject, and not one of them complained of having anything thrust upon them, but they all pointed out how inconvenient it would be to have any change made in the present law upon this point.


said the hon. Member for South Edinburgh was mistaken in saying that this matter of later opening was only mooted for the firs time in Committee upstairs. The Secretary for Scotland last year in another place advocated the keeping of public houses closed an hour later than eight o'clock, and when a large deputation, of provosts, magistrates, and town councillors from all parts of Scotland met the Secretary for Scotland in Edinburgh, at which he was present, he repeated his opinion, that it would be in the interest of the public to open an hour later in the morning. That was a very strong argument in favour of the House accepting the Amendment.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 108; Noes, 86. (Division List No. 184.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon
Anson, Sir William Reynell Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Anstruther, H. T. Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Flavin, Michael Joseph
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole Flower, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Forster, Henry William
Bailey, James (Walworth) Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Fyler, John Arthur
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cullinan, J. Galloway, William Johnson
Balcarres, Lord Davenport, William Bromley Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Gordon,Hn.J.E.(Elgin & Nrn.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Dickson, Charles Scott Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doogan, P. C. Greene,Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bond, Edward Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Gretton, John
Butcher, John George Duke, Henry Edward Greville, Hon. Ronald
Cavendish,V.C.W.(Derbyshire Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Groves, James Grimble
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas Hamilton,RtHnLordG(Midd'x
Clare, Octavius Leigh Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.
Henderson, Sir Alexander Mitchell, William (Burnley) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Hickman, Sir Alfred Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Hobhouse, RtHnH (Somrst E. Morrell, George Herbert Sharpe, William Edward T.
Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Smith,H.C(North'mb. Tyneside
Hudson, George Bickersteth Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute Stroyan, John
Kilbride, Denis Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Tollemache, Henry James
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R O'Malley, William Valentia, Viscount
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Walrond,Rt.HnSirWilliamH.
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S Platt-Higgins, Frederick Whiteley,H(Ashton und. Lyne
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Pretyman, Ernest George Williams,RtHnJPowell-(Birm
Lowe, Francis William Purvis, Robert Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lucas, Regl'd J. (Portsmouth) Raach, Major Frederic Carne Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Lundon, W. Remnant, James Farquharson Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Macdona, John Cumming Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Renwick, George
M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Majendie, James A. H. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Sir Alexander Acland-
Maxwell,RtHn.SirH E(Wigt'n Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Milvain, Thomas Royds, Clement Molyneux
Allen,CharlesP.(Glouc, Stroud Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan) Reid,SirR.Threshie(Dumfries)
Arrol, Sir William Fenwick, Charles Rickett, J. Compton
Baird, John George Alexander Fuller, J. M. F. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Barlow, John Emmott Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Runciman, Walter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Russell, T. W.
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton, Marq. of(Londondy Schwann, Charles E.
Black, Alexander William Hare, Thomas Leigh Shackleton, David James
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hayne, Rt. Hon, Charles Seale- Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brigg, John Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Shaw-Stewart,M.H.(Renfrew)
Broadhurst, Henry Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) John-tone, Heywood Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Kearley, Hudson E. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Burt, Thomas Law, H. Alex. (Donegal, W.) Soares, Ernest J.
Caldwell, James Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Talbot,Rt.Hn.JG.(Oxf'd Univ.
Cameron, Robert Layland-Barratt, Francis Taylor,Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Cawley, Frederick Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington Tennant, Harold John
Channing, Francis Allston Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Levy, Maurice Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Lewis, John Herbert Thorburn, Sir Walter
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Tomkinson, James
Dalziel, James Henry M'Kenna, Reginald Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen.) M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)
Denny, Colonel Markham, Arthur Basil Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Duncan, J. Hastings Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. Yoxall, James Henry
Dunn, Sir William Newnes, Sir George
Edwards, Frank Norman, Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Elibank, Master of Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Sir John Stirling-Maxwell
Emmott, Alfred Philipps, John Wynford and Mr. Cameron Corbett.

Proposed words inserted in the Bill.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 65, lines 12 and 13, to leave out the words 'not earlier than eight and not later than ten of the clock as the licensing Court may direct.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 66, line 18, to leave out the words 'such hour,' and insert 'eight of the clock.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question put, "That the words 'such hour' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided:—Ayes, 71: Noes, 132. (Division List No. 185.)

Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Brigg, John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Black, Alexander William Broadhurst, Henry
Barlow, John Emmott Bolton, Thomas Dolling Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)
Bryce, Right Hon. James Harwood, George Rose, Charles Day
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Runciman, Walter
Burt, Thomas Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Schwann, Charles E.
Cameron, Robert Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Shackleton, David James
Cawley, Frederick Kearley, Hudson E. Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Channing, Francis Allston Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Shipman, Dr. John G.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Layland-Barratt, Francis Soares, Ernest J.
Dalziel, James Henry Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Levy, Maurice Tennant, Harold John
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Dunn, Sir William M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Tomkinson, James
Edwards, Frank Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Elibank, Master of Markham, Arthur Basil Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Emmott, Alfred Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan) Newnes, Sir George Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles Norman, Henry Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Fuller, J. M. F. Partington, Oswald
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Philipps, John Wynford TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Caldwell and Mr.
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Hunter Craig.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Anson, Sir William Reynell Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Anstruther, H. T. Gretton, John Pierpoint, Robert
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Greville, Hon. Ronald Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Arrol, Sir William Groves, James Grimble Pretyman, Ernest George
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Hare, Thomas Leigh Purvis, Robert
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bailey, James (Walworth) Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Bain, Colonel James Robert Helder, Augustus Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Baird, John George Alexander Henderson, Sir Alexander Renwick, George
Balcarres, Lord Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Hickman, Sir Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hobhouse, Rt Hn H. (Somrst E Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Bignold, Arthur Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham Royds, Clement Molyneux
Bond, Edward Hudson, George Bickersteth Russell, T. W.
Butcher, John George Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Johnstone, Heywood Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kilbride, Denis Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Clare, Octavius Leigh Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Law, H. Alex. (Donegal, W.) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Callings, Right Hon. Jesse Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R. Smith, H. C. (North'mb, Tyneside
Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cox. Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lowe, Francis William Stroyan, John
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Cullinan, J. Lundon, W. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Davenport, William Bromley Macdona, John Cumming Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Dickson, Charles Scott Majendie, James A. H. Thorburn, Sir Walter
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Tollemache, Henry James
Duke, Henry Edward Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n Valentia, Viscount
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Milvain, Thomas Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh N. Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Mitchell, William (Burnley) William, Rt Hn J. Powell- (Birm.
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morrell, George Herbert Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. Bath)
Flower, Ernest Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Forster, Henry William Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Fyler, John Arthur Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Galloway, William Johnson Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans Nicholson, William Graham Sir Alexander Acland-
Gordon Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon O'Malley, William

Question proposed, "That the words 'eight of the clock' be there inserted in the Bill."


said the reason why it was necessary to take a division on each of these Amendments was that in the schedule there were three distinct certificates, the first for inns and hotels, the second for public houses, and the third for grocers. By dividing on each they were taking the only possible way of making a protest against what was proposed by the Government.


said he felt very strongly on this Amendment, but he

was bound to say that after the decision of the House on the first question he did not think they should delay business by dividing again.

The House divided:—Ayes, 41; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 186.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Nicholson, William Graham
Anstruther, H. T. Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gretton, John Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Arrol, Sir William Greville, Hon. Ronald Pierpoint, Robert
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Groves, James Grimble Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Pretyman, Ernest George
Bailey, James (Walworth) Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midx Purvis, Robert
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hare, Thomas Leigh Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Baird, John George Alexander Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Remnant, James Farquharson
Balcarres, Lord Hay, Hon. Claude George Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Helder, Augustus Renwick, George
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Henderson, Sir Alexander Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)
Bignold, Arthur Hermon-Hodge. Sir Robert T. Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hickman, Sir Alfred Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Bond, Edward Hobhouse, Rt Hn H. (Somrst E. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Butcher, John George Hoult, Joseph Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm Russell, T. W.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hudson, George Bickersteth Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Clive, Captain Percy A. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Johnstone, Heywood Sharpe, William Edward T.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew}
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.) Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyneside
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stroyan, John
Davenport, William Bromley Lowe, Francis William Sturt, Hn. Humphry Napier
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Dickson, Charles Scott Lundon, W. Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Macdona, John Cumming Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Duke, Henry Edward M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Tollemache, Henry James.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Valentia, Viscount
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Majendie, James A. H. Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Man'r Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Milvain, Thomas Williams, Rt. Hn J. Powell- (Birm
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Mitchell, William (Burnley) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Flavin, Michael Joseph Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Worsley Taylor, Henry Wilson
Flower, Ernest Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Forster, Henry William Morgan, David J. (Walth'mstow
Fyler, John Arthur Morrell, George Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Sir Alexander Acland-
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Broadhurst, Henry Dalziel, James Henry
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Barlow, John Emmott Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Burt, Thomas Duncan, J. Hastings
Black, Alexander William Cameron, Robert Dunn, Sir William
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Cawley, Frederick Edwards, Frank
Brigg, John Channing, Francis Allston Elibank, Master of
Emmott, Alfred M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fenwick, Charles Markham, Arthur Basil Tennant, Harold John
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Newnes, Sir George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Norman, Henry Tomkinson, James
Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy Nussey, Thomas Willans Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Partington, Oswald Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Harwood, George Philipps, John Wynford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pirie, Duncan V. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Priestley, Arthur Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)
Humphreys-Owen. Arthur C. Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, John (Durham Mid.)
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Yoxall, James Henry
Kearley, Hudson E. Rose, Charles Day
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Runciman, Walter
Layland-Barratt, Francis Shackleton, David James TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Mr. Caldwell and Mr.
Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G. Hunter Craig.
Lewis, John Herbert Soares, Ernest J.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Question put.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 66, lines 19 and 20, to leave out the words 'not earlier than eight and not later than ten of the clock as the licensing Court may direct.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 67, line 25, to leave out the words 'such hour' and insert 'eight of the clock.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 67, lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words 'not earlier than eight and not later than ten of the clock as the licensing Court may direct.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 70, to leave out Schedule 11."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 71, column 1, line 15, to leave out the words '43 and 44 Vict., c. 20,' and insert the words '63 and 64 Vict., c. 28,'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 72, column 3, line 11, at end, to insert the words 'Section two hundred and thirty-seven,' the words 'be intoxicated while on duty, or if,' and the word 'he' where first occurring."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.


said he thought there was a general feeling in the House in favour of taking a Third Reading of the Bill that night, so that it might go to another place in time for its fair consideration.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be read a third time."


said he did not suppose that anyone wished to divide upon the Third Reading; but before that was taken he might be permitted to express the feeling on both sides of the House in regard to the great courtesy and skill with which the Lord Advocate had conducted the proceedings both in the Standing Committee and in this House—proceedings which he had enlivened with a fund of anecdote worthy of Dean Ramsey, and a humour which was supposed to be only characteristic of the Sister Isle. He wished to direct attention to the degree in which Scotch opinion had been overridden in the House. In the first place the proposal of the right hon. Member for Stirling Burghs to remit the Bill to a Committee consisting of the Scotch Members was rejected. He ventured to say that had that proposal been carried the Bill would not only have been a different but a better Bill than they now had. There were many divisions in which Scotch opinion was wholly on one side, and the Lord Advocate and the English Members on the other side. Nothing could have been more striking than the division which took place after the dinner hour, when the Lord Advocate, with the assistance of English Members, insisted on thrusting down the throats of the Scotch Members a proposal opposed almost unanimously by the Scotch Members. A great blot on the Bill was the continuance of the justices on the licensing authority. That should have been a representative body nominated by the County Council. Another matter of universal condemnation in Scotland was the retention of the Appeal Court. Could anything be more absurd than an appeal from the judgment of gentlemen who knew the whole circumstances to that of gentlemen who knew nothing about them? The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that ignorance was the true qualification for a licensing authority. He ventured to say that had the matter been left to the Scotch Members alone the appeal would be swept away. Another blemish in the Bill was the retention of the word "court" instead of "authority," which implied that the constitution of the licensing authority was altered, and that they were not allowed to exercise discretion. That was against not only Scotch opinion but against the opinion of the Prime Minister, expressed on April 8th last. On the whole, however, there was no doubt that the Bill was a great improvement on what had hitherto obtained in Scotland, and he was sure that throughout the length and breadth of Scotland an effort would be made to carry it out in such a way that it might be a real measure of temperance reform.


said he had been somewhat amused when the Lord Advocate characterised this Bill "as a generous attempt at temperance reform." He entirely dissented from the expression of such an opinion, and he felt certain that the Scotch people would not be at all satisfied with the measure, which might be called a Police Licensing Act, instead of "a generous attempt at temperance reform." They in Scotland who wanted local veto and popular control would never be satisfied until they got them. He believed that the Bill had been promoted in the interests of the Trade. The publicans had been far more considered in framing and carrying out the Bill than the public of Scotland. Although they were very thankful for the measure, so far as it went, it did not at all represent the views of temperance reformers in Scotland.


said that they could not regard the Bill as anything whatever in the nature of temperance reform. He knew of nothing in the Bill that would promote temperance more than the existing law. On the other hand, it opened the door to a great deal of abuse. The Bill had one great merit, however—it was a consolidating Bill, and that was a great gain to the community. The constitution of the Licensing Courts would in many cases be materially changed by the Bill. The measure was certainly an advance on the existing state of things, but still in some places it was regarded as of a retrograde character. At the present day, for the granting of licences, magistrates were absolutely imperious, and it was well known that in a great many boroughs the magistrates had sole control of all licences within their jurisdiction. That was taken away from them by this Bill, and they were now mixed up with the county authority. It was, therefore, a disfranchising Bill so far as many boroughs in Scotland were concerned. On that side of the House they had always gone in for popular control of the liquor traffic, and he was sorry to notice that the Bill only conceded that to a certain extent. They were, however, prepared to accept it as the best possible temperance measure they could get from the Tory Party, but the Government must understand that they accepted it only as an instalment of reform and not as a final solution of the problem.

MR. CAMERON CORBETT (Glasgow, Tradeston)

protested against the description which the last speaker had given of the Bill. Those of them who were extreme temperance men were sometimes accused of refusing to accept half a loaf, but he believed that all earnest temperance men in Scotland welcomed the Bill with a great deal of cordiality. As to grocers' vans they undoubtedly now were something like travelling public-houses, and the restrictions imposed by this Bill would go far to check the abuse of their use. He did not think they could fail to be grateful for what the Bill proposed to do in reference to clubs, for he acknowledged that the great bulk of the evil which was being done by these drinking clubs would be prevented in the future by this measure, and if the Bill did no more than that they would have every reason to be thankful for it.