§ As amended (by the Standing Committee), further considered.
§
Proceedings resumed on Amendment proposed to the Bili—
In page 25, lines 28 and 29, to leave out the words; in that part of the premises where exciseable liquor is sold or consumed.'"—(Sir John Leng.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)said this provision applied only to that part of the premises where liquor was consumed. Therefore the alterations could only be ordered in that part of the premises where liquor was consumed. That, he considered, was a most unnecessary restriction, because, obviously, sanitary arrangements were required. There were other things as well. If there was a side door or a back door the licensing authority when they came to deal with the structural alterations ought to have the whole of the premises under their jurisdiction, and they should not be limited merely to that part where liquor was sold or consumed.
§ *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,) Buteshiresaid he could not accept the Amendment.
§ MR. BLACK (Banffshire)asked how was it possible under the provisions of this clause for the licensing authority to say what part of the premises should be licensed.
§ MR. GALLOWAY (Manchester, S. W.)pointed out that the licence-holder had more than one authority to deal with, for he had to deal not only with the licensing authority but also with the sanitary authority. Some of the licensing authorities, not only in England but in Scotland, had behaved very unreasonably to the licence - holders. [Cries of "Where?"] They had behaved so unreasonably that licence - holders were unable to put their premises in a proper sanitary condition because the licensing authority said they must not do this or that. Hon. Members opposite asked where this took place. He was much too old to quote the names of the places, for if he did they all knew what would happen at the next licensing sessions. He hoped the Lord Advocate would remain firm and not accept this Amendment, which would bring a great deal of trouble to the licence-holder, and would not achieve the object in view.
§ *THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,) Glasgow, Bridgtonsaid an experienced licensing Court would have no difficulty in regulating the part of the premises where liquor was sold, leaving the other part of the premises to be dealt with by the other ordinary sanitary authority.
§ Question put.
1401| The House divided: — Ayes, 135; Noes, 75. (Division List, No. 177.) |
| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | Purvis, Robert |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Arrol, Sir William | Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) | Reid, James (Greenock |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gretton, John | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Groves, James Grimble | Renwick, George |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf d | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Helder, Augustus | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somers't, E. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bigwood, James | Hoult, Joseph | Rutherford, John (Lancashire |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faversham | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bull, William James | Johnstone, Heywood | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kerr, John | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Chapman, Edward | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Davenport, William Bromley | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. |
| Delany, William | M'Iver Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire. | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Doogan, P. C. | Milvain, Thomas | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton) |
| Doughty, George | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und, Lyne |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Morrell, George Herbert | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Wylie, Alexander |
| Flower, Ernest | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | |
| Forster, Henry William | Myers, William Henry | |
| Foster, Philip, S. (Warwick, S. W. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Fyler, John Arthur | O'Dowd, John | Mr. Anstruther and Mr. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Fellowes. |
| Garfit, William | Percy, Earl |
| NOES | ||
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Emmott, Alfred | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Asher, Alexander | Fenwick, Charles | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy. | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Partington, Oswald |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Priestley, Arthur |
| Brigg, John | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Rigg, Richard |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West | Runciman, Walter |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Horniman, Frederick John | Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland) |
| Burt, Thomas | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Shackleton, David James |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Joicey, Sir James | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Kearley, Hudson E. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lambert, George | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Crombie, John William | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Toulmin, George |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dunn, Sir William | Levy, Maurice | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Wason, Eugene (Calkmannan) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | Mr. Caldwell and Mr. |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney | Williams, O. (Merioneth) | Black. |
| Weir, James Galloway | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) | |
| White, George (Norfolk) | Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Hud sfi'ld | |
| Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
§ MR. CALDWELLmoved the Amendment on the Paper standing in the name of the hon. Member for Dundee. He looked upon this provision as a very unreasonable one. If the licensing authority made any order with reference to structural alterations there was a power of appeal, and therefore the licence holder was sufficiently protected. He thought the period of five years was a very long one, because it would tie the hands of the licensing authority for that period from ordering any small alterations. The result would be that the licensing authorities would be inclined to order larger alterations than they otherwise would, because they would not be able to order any more alterations for a period of five years. Again, by putting in this restriction they practically suggested to the licensing authority that at the end of every five years there should be an overhauling of the premises. He did not think this provision would be to the advantage of the licence holders, and he begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill.
In page 25, line 30, to leave out from the word 'Act,' to the end of line 34."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Question proposed, "That, the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he could not accept this Amendment. The House would remember that in the case of a new certificate the licensing Court were absolute masters of the situation, and they could mould the plans as they wished. The argument that the licensing Courts were not always the same persons in his opinion cut the other way. It was because they were not always the same, and because licence-holders should not be subjected to the
§ idiosyncrasies of other persons, that this restriction should be allowed. There were many things in which they were allowed to change their mind. It was possible for Mid Lanark to have a new Member at the end of seven years. He could scarcely imagine that such a thing was possible, but if it were it would not be a structural alteration.
§ MR. BLACKhoped the Lord Advocate would not put the House to the necessity of going to a division upon this question. If the licensing authority desired to have some further alterations they might say, "Unless you make these alterations you shall not have your licence." Surely the right hon. Gentleman had confidence in his own licensing authority.
§ MR. GROVES (Salford, S.)urged the Lord Advocate not to accept this Amendment.
MR. HUNTER CRAIG (Lanarkshire, Govan)said this was one of the restrictive clauses which the Lord Advocate had introduced into the measure. The right hon. Gentleman had not made out a case for the rejection of the Amendment. In his experience as a justice of peace, he had never heard that it was a grievance that the licensing anthority should, on an application for renewal, have power to inspect the premises, and if necessary order structural alterations. The proposal in the Bill was certainly a retrograde step. It was really tying the hands of the licensing authority in such a way as had never been done before. He really thought that the Lord Advocate, as a Scotch representative, should have a higher opinion of the Scotch licensing authorities. He sincerely hoped the Amendment would be accepted.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 153; Noes, 85. (Division List, No. 178.)
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Purvis, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Groves, James Grimble | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd | Renwick, George |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Bigwood, James | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Helder, Augustus | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. H. (Som'rs't, E. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hoult, Joseph | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Bull, William James | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Butcher, John George | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnstone, Heywood | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Chapman, Edward | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Charrington Spencer | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kerr, John | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Lawson, John Grant (York, N. R. | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge | Leveson-Gower Frederick N. S. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M. |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Denny, Colonel | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Doughty, George | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'n | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Milvain, Thomas | Valentia, Viscount |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morrell, George Herbert | Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund, Lyne |
| Forster, Henry William | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Fyler, John Arthur | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Myers, William Henry | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Garfit, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | O'Dowd, John | |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Percy, Earl | Hood and Mr. Fellowes. |
| Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lambert, George |
| Asher, Alexander | Duncan, J. Hastings | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy. | Dunn, Sir William | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Edwards, Frank | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Emmott, Alfred | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Black, Alexander William | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Levy, Maurice |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Fenwick, Charles | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brigg, John | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Burt, Thomas | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Norman, Henry |
| Caldwell, James | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Partington, Oswald |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Priestley, Arthur |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) | Horniman, Frederick John | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Cremer, William Randal | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Rigg, Richard |
| Crombie, John William | Jacoby, James Alfred | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Crooks, William | Joicey, Sir James | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Runciman, Walter |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kearley, Hudson E. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland |
| Shackleton, David James | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Weir, James Galloway | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd |
| Soares, Ernest J. | White, George (Norfolk) | |
| Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants | Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Mr. Eugene Wason and |
| Tomkinson, James | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | Mr. Hunter Craig. |
| Toulmin, George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 26, line 19, to leave out the word 'licence.'—(Mr. Shaw-Stewart.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 26, line 19, after the word 'holder,' to insert the words 'of any form of certificate.'"—(Mr. Shaw-Stewart.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 27, to leave out Clause 45."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
MR. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick)said he would not move the following Amendment, of which he had given notice.
In page 29, line 5, after the word 'than,' to insert the word 'half.'"—(Mr. Parker Smith.)
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid he would move the Amendment standing in the hon. Member's name. The law in Scotland for the last seventy-five years had been that any quantity of spirituous liquor, more than half a pint, must be sold by Imperial standard measure. What the Bill proposed was to alter that law in order that what was known in Scotland as a "schooner"—a quantity between a half and a whole pint—might be legalised, the Court of Session having by a unanimous decision declared that it was an illegal standard of measurement, which could not be sold. The law in Scotland in regard to this matter was the same as the law in England and Ireland, and therefore he thought the House should have some explanation why it was proposed to make a change of this kind. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 5, after the word 'than' to insert the word 'half.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'half' be there inserted in the Bill."
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYhoped the House would re-affirm the decision of the Committee. The hon. Member had stated what had been the law of Scotland for seventy-five years, but it was only found out to be the law of Scotland last summer, when, by a decision of the Court, it was declared that not only a "schooner" but an ordinary pint bottle was illegal. Therefore it was absolutely necessary to bring in a clause in order to save the "schooner." Why should the hon. Member for Mid Lanark desire to sink the "schooner," which, as a matter of fact, was a charming beer measure. From the temperance point of view it was better to allow people to have two-thirds of a pint, because if they had to choose between a half and a whole pint, they would probably select the larger measure.
§ *MR. JOHN WILSON (Glasgow, St. Rollox)said, being connected with a shipping community, he wished to support the "schooner."
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the series of Amendments standing next in his name on the Paper were rendered necessary by the fact that the Summary Procedure Act was passed long after the Home Drummond Act. They were really no more than drafting Amendments. The reason why they were not made in the Consolidation Bill was because he gave a personal undertaking to the Committee upstairs that the Bill as produced was really no more than, if he might so express it, the putting together of the various Acts now in operation.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 22, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'within,' in line 23, and insert the words 'default of payment.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 25, to leave out the word 'of,' and insert the words 'not exceeding.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 32, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'within' in line 33, and insert the words 'default of payment.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 35, to leave out the words 'of two calendar,' and insert the words 'not exceeding two.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 29, line 41, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'within' on page 30, line 1, and insert the words 'default of payment.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 30, line 3, to leave out the words 'of four calendar,' and insert the words 'not exceeding four.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 30, line 7, to leave out from the word 'null' to end of clause.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 33, line 21, to leave out from the word 'therein' to the word 'shall' in line 24."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. GRETTON (Derbyshire, S.)said that he had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out Clause 62, which prohibited the collection of rates and taxes on licensed premises. The Amendment was of some importance in country districts, because in such counties as Argyllshire, Inverness-shire, and Aberdeen, it would be found very inconvenient to prohibit the collection of rates and taxes in the local inn. There was no recommendation 1410 in favour of this clause in the Report of the Royal Commission, and, on the other hand, the insertion of such a clause had been opposed by several County Councils and other rating authorities.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, to leave out Clause 62."—(Mr. Gretton.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'or in line 3, stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. CROMBIE (Kincardineshire)said he hoped the Lord Advocate would stand by this clause, which was carried in the Committee without a division. Why should the rates and taxes be paid in a public house? He could quote a number of English Acts which prevented meetings in public houses. Moreover, Scotch Acts laid down that the schoolrooms should always be open for public purposes.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that in Committee he had expressed himself as unfavourable to the clause, but as he gathered that the sense of the Committee was for it he did not divide against it. The clause was a counsel of perfection, but he did not believe it would have any influence on the cause of temperance at all, while it would cause considerable inconvenience in some country districts. It was not a matter on which he felt strongly, and though personally he would vote for taking the clause out, he would leave the decision of the question to the House.
§ *MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)said he had never heard such nonsense as was talked by the mover of the Amendment. (Cries of "Order.")
§ *MR. SPEAKERThat is a remark that ought not to be applied to any hon. Member.
§ *MR. WEIRsaid that the hon. Gentlemen knew absolutely nothing about Argyllshire or Buteshire, or Ross and Cromarty. If he knew these parts of the country he would also know that every schoolhouse was available for the collection of the rates and taxes, and if the schoolhouse was inconvenient every crofter's and fisherman's house would be 1411 available for the purpose. He was surprised at the Lord Advocate, who was a Highland Member, saying what he did say, and he trusted that hon. Members would not be led by one who did not know anything about the Highlands.
§ SIR CHARLES RENSHAW (Renfrew, W.)said he was surprised at the attitude adopted by the Lord Advocate. Anyone acquainted with the habits of the people and the sentiments of the local authorities in Scotland knew that they regarded the collection of rates and taxes in public houses with more than dislike. He was in very close touch with several local authorities, and he had not had a single objection to the clause. Having regard to the large number of public places which could be used in every part of Scotland for the collection of rates, he was strongly of opinion that the clause ought to be retained.
§ *SIR HERBERT MAXWELL (Wigtonshire)said that his hon. friend who had spoken last represented a populous county, whereas he (Sir Herbert Maxwell) represented a sparsely populated one. He had received very strong representations indeed as to the inconvenience which would be caused in many parts of the south-west of Scotland by this clause if it were retained in the Bill, Whatever might be the case in the Highlands, in some parts of the Lowlands the only place available for the collection of rates and taxes was the inn.
§ *MR. SCOTT DICKSONsaid he hoped that the House would not be led away by the remarks of the hon. Baronet the Member for Renfrewshire. This was not a large question, but it had really come to the knowledge of the Government that in quite a number of counties this clause would cause the utmost inconvenience. It had been the practice in many counties, such as Argyllshire, to use an inn for the purpose of collecting rates and taxes, and he did not know that any evil results had followed.
§ MR. HALDANE (Haddingtonshire)said two objections had been made to this clause; firstly, that it would cause inconvenience, and secondly, that it cast somewhat of a slur on the owners of licensed premises. Nobody wanted to 1412 cast any slur on these persons, but experience showed that when money was taken in considerable amounts into licensed premises, it was spent there. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] The temptation was to spend the money in drink, and that was why the payment of wages in public houses was illegal. He did feel that it would be a retrograde step to reverse the unanimous decision of the Committee and strike out the clause. The Lord Advocate had spoken dubiously about it, although the Solicitor-General supported the deletion of the clause with greater courage. Where was the inconvenience? Every school in every parish in Scotland was available for the collection of rates and taxes, and wherever they went in Scotland, even in the most sparsely-populated districts, they would find either a school or some building which was used for the transaction of public business. Moreover, he knew a great many parishes in Scotland where there was not a single public house. He should extremely regret if the clause were struck out.
§ MR. JOHN WILSON (Falkirk Burghs)said he felt greatly disappointed to hear the Lord Advocate lending the weight of his countenance to this clause being excised from the Bill. His Lordship knew as well as he did that the law prohibited the payment of wages in public-houses. He thought the Government would find that in a great many cases the taxes, instead of being paid to the collector, would be melted in the public-house.
§ SIR LEWIS MCIVER (Edinburgh, W.)said he admitted that mischief might follow if the collection of rates and taxes in licensed houses were generally practised, but it would only take place in sparsely populated districts, where other convenient buildings were not available. He could speak with authority that the clause would cause inconvenience in his own county (Ross and Cromarty). He ventured to submit that, although the right hon. and learned Member for Haddingtonshire had spoken of the facilities given for the collection of rates and taxes in schools, it had not been suggested that any wickedness or evil had followed from the practice of paying rates and taxes in the village inn. If they admitted the arguments used in favour of the clause, there was hardly any conceivable ground 1413 on which they could not deny the right of going into a place of public entertainment.
§ MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)said that the hon. Baronet had told the Committee truly that this clause would only apply to certain parts of Scotland. What was the case in the hon. Baronet's own county, Ross and Cromarty? In the Island of Lewis, if the rates and taxes were collected in a public house, the people would have often to walk more than forty-five miles.
§ SIR LEWIS MCIVERsaid he had never suggested that it should be made compulsory to pay rates and taxes in public-houses.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid at the present time accommodation was found for the collection of rates without calling in the public-house or the aid of the publican. Even if a school or a public hall were not available, there was always a private house at which it was generally known the collector would attend. He expressed his extreme surprise that the Lord Advocate, who had been so wise, on the whole, in supporting many important points in Committee, should have, on the slightest suggestion of an English Member, run away from the unanimous decision of the Committee. He thought if ever there was a question which ought to be left to the decision of the Scottish Members it was this. They knew perfectly well that if the Lord Advocate went into a particular lobby it would have an important effect on a large number of hon. Members who had not heard the debate. It was not fair of the Lord Advocate at this stage of the Bill to run away from the decision of the Committee and get out of it by throwing the responsibility upon hon. Members who had not heard the debate. He should prefer that the Lord Advocate should make himself responsible for the clause as it stood in the Bill. The clause was the work of a Committee, practically appointed by the Lord Advocate, and was unanimously adopted by them.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYobserved that he had nothing to do with the appointment of the Committee.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid he referred to the form of the Committee. They desired a Scotch Committee, but the Lord Advocate opposed that, and the Committee was formed on the lines he laid down. That Committee had unanimously decided in favour of this clause, and he held that they ought to have had from the Lord Advocate some leading on the question. If the Lord Advocate followed the decision of the Committee he would be acting in consonance with the views of the great majority of Scotch Members.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, N. E.)said the point involved was a very small one. As a Scotchman, having a large acquaintance with Scotch business, he was at a loss to understand why it was thought to be a shocking thing to perform a public act in a licensed house. He had been accustomed all his lite to doing county business, and, as often as not, the bodies of which he was a member had transacted business in a licensed house. What could be more convenient than that they should obtain refreshment and luncheon there? It was altogether surprising to him that some people should look upon a licensed house as an evil per se. He knew something about Scotch opinion, and he could assure the House that it was a great exaggeration and mistake to suppose that Scotchmen thought it shocking to transact business in a licensed house, which was often the most convenient place for that purpose.
§ MR. BLACKsaid he would like to know whether the objections to this clause originated with the publicans. They had a very shrewd idea of the source from which the objections came. This was really a question of compelling persons to visit public-houses whether they liked to do so or not, and if a collector elected to collect the rates in public-houses men and ladies would have to go there to pay their rates whether they liked it or not. There were three classes for whom this would not be good. First, there was a large class for whom it was positively dangerous to go into a public-house, because of the temptation they could not withstand; secondly, there were those who had conscientious 1415 objections to visiting public-houses because of the pledges they had taken against indulging in intoxicating liquors; and thirdly, there were those, no doubt very weak and foolish, who felt that in the public-house they must do something for the good of the house. There was an opinion prevalent in Scotland that if anybody went into a place of entertainment they must take something. Every hon. Member from Scotland knew that few men who were not teetotallers visited a public house without taking something. He would therefore emphasise the fact that people would be compelled to go to public-houses, and he sincerely hoped that the House would retain the clause as it stood.
§ MR. ALEXANDER CROSS (Glasgow, Camlachie)remarked that the House was now asked to reverse the decision of its own Committee, which, having considered the Bill, had arrived at a certain conclusion. The clause was not even challenged by that Committee, and he considered it would be a most unusual and improper course for the House to take if it struck out the clause unless grave cause could be shown for such action. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester had spoken about business being conducted in public-houses. He (Mr. Ross) had some experience of that, and he and all who were acquainted with money dealings in country places deplored that such dealings should be conducted in public-houses at all. There was a practice by which a man took something for the good of the house, whether or not he was inclined to do so. What would be the circumstances in which rates would be paid in this case? A crowd of persons would assemble to pay rates. The collector would sit in a public-house, and he could only deal with one at a time, while the others who were waiting their turn would be drinking at the bar. He submitted that it was the duty of the House to endeavour, so far as it could, to put no facilities in the way of men who were disposed to take liquor when they should not do so. It was unreasonable and improper to ask ratepayers to stand about in public- 1416 houses waiting for the opportunity to pay their rates.
§ *MR. JOHN WILSON (Glasgow, St. Rollox)strongly opposed the omission of the clause. He knew that it was not only in remote districts that rates were paid in public-houses, because the same thing occurred in his own district, the village of Drymen, where there were two public halls and a schoolhouse that could be used for the purpose.
§ MR. THEODORE TAYLOR (Lancashire, Radcliffe)said that the whole tendency of public thought in Great Britain had been against the holding of public meetings in public-houses. They had an example of that in the Corrupt Practices Act, which made it unlawful to hold any political meeting in a public-house. Scotland was not behind England in this sentiment, and there were many people who were not bigoted teetotallers who did not wish to give advantages to public-houses in this respect. As one who served as a member of the Committee which discussed this Bill, and as one who wished the Bill well, he earnestly appealed to the Government to allow the clause to remain. There were many men whose wills were weak, or whose mental calibre was deficient, to whom it was a risk to go into a public-house, and they ought not to compel people to attend public-houses wherever there was another place at which public money could be received. The clause was inserted in the Bill in Committee without opposition, and those who had supported the Government in the Bill hoped that the Government would not prejudice this clause by throwing their weight against it. They hoped that Scotch Members would be allowed to have their own way in this matter, for if Scotch Members were polled there would be a large majority in favour of the clause remaining.
§ MR. CORBETT (Glasgow, Tradeston)joined in the appeal made by Scotch Members to the Government. The feeling of those who believed in the disadvantages attached to the collection of rates in public-houses was based on the belief that serious mischief might 1417 be, and sometimes was, done. The argument on the other side was entirely one of local convenience. If there were any great principle involved it might be too much for them to ask English Members to set aside their own view; but as there was no such principle involved, he thought they might be asked not to join issue with the great majority of Scotch Members.
§ MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.)trusted that the Lord Advocate would not press the opinion of the trade against that of Scotch Members. Scotch opinion was
| AYES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick | Rigg, Richard |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Asher, Alexander | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Harwood, George | Rose, Charles Day |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Runciman, Walter |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somrst E. | Shackleton, David James |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Horniman, Frederick John | Shaw Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Bill, Charles | Hoult, Joseph | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Black, Alexander William | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Jacoby, James Alfred | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Brigg, John | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Johnstone, Heywood | Spear, John Ward |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Joicey, Sir James | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jno. M. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Lambert, George | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. Ox'd Univ. |
| Bull, William James | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth |
| Burt, Thomas | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Butcher, John George | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Tennant, Harold John |
| Caldwell, James | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Tomkinson, James |
| Charrington, Spencer | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Toulmin, George |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Levy, Maurice | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. | Lewis, John Herbert | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lough, Thomas | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Maconochie, A. W. | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Arthur William (Cornwall) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Denny, Colonel | Markham, Arthur Basil | Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) |
| Doughty, George | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Dunn, Sir William | Myers, William Henry | Williams, O. (Merioneth) |
| Edwards, Frank | Norman, Henry | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Partington, Oswald | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Philipps, John Wynford | Wylie, Alexander |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Priestley, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Sir Charles Renshaw and |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Reid, James (Greenock) | Mr. Crombie. |
§ emphatically in favour of the clause remaining a part of the Hill. He had received representation after representation from his constituents on the subject while the Bill was in Committee, and he asked English Members to pay some attention to Scotch opinion. Scotch Members should be allowed to manage their own affairs to the best interests of their own country.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 149; Noes, 104. (Division List No. 179.)
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Garfit, William | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Percy, Earl |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Groves, James Crimble | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hambro, Charles Eric | Purvis, Robert |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x | Renwick, George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hatch, Ernest Frederick George | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faver'hm | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hudson, George Bickersteth) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Kerr, John | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R. | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cullinan, J. | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Doogan, P. C. | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Milvain, Thomas | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Webb, Col. William George |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Morrell, George Herbert | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Forster, Henry William | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S. W. | Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Fyler, John Arthur | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Mr. Gretton and Sir |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Herbert Maxwell. |
§ SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL (Glasgow, College)said the clause as it stood included houses which were contiguous to licensed premises. The Amendment he begged to move proposed that such contiguous houses should be excepted, and that the provision should apply only to licensed premises and the gardens and courts which were held in conjunction with them. If the clause were to be passed as it stood he believed that the premises of a bank situate next door to a public-house would be affected.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill.
In page 34, to leave out lines 3, 4, and 5, and insert the words 'or court therewith occupied, and every one collecting rates or taxes
1420
therein shall be guilty of an offence under this Act.'"—(Sir J. Stirling-Maxwell.)
§ MR. GALLOWAYsaid if they accepted the Amendment they would be adding an additional insult to the licensed keeper or licence-holder. In the first place they said that his premises were not a proper place for the collection of rates. That was the decision of the House. Supposing that a bank was contiguous to licensed premises. Why should a bank be a more respectable place than a licensed house? He opposed the Amendment, and if he could get a teller he should divide the House to get these words removed from the Clause.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 6, to leave out from the word 'person' to the word 'without' in line 9, and insert the words 'trafficking in any spirits or other excisable liquors in any place or premises.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 13, to leave out the words 'sum of' and insert the words 'sum not exceeding.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, in moving the following Amendments, said he had promised the Committee to look into the matter of penalties, and these drafting Amendments were the result.
§
Amendments proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 13, to leave out the word 'seven' and insert the word 'fifty.'
In page 34, line 14, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'the' in line 16, and insert the words 'default of immediate payment.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 17, to leave out the words 'sum of,' and insert the words 'sum not exceeding.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendments proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 20, to leave out the word 'fifteen' and insert the words 'one hundred.'
In page 34, line 21, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'the' in line 24, and insert the words 'default of immediate payment.'
1422
In page 34, line 24, to leave out the word 'of,' and insert the words 'not exceeding.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§
Amendments proposed to the Bill—
In page 34, line 28, to leave out the word 'thirty,' and insert the words 'one hundred.
In page 34, line 29, to leave out from the word 'in' to the word 'the' in line 31, and insert the words 'default of immediate payment.'
In page 34, line 32, to leave out the word 'of,' and insert the words 'not exceeding.'
In page 34, line 34, to leave out from the word 'same' to the word 'Provided' in line 38.
In page 34, line 41, to leave out from the word 'of' to the word 'under' in line 42, and insert the words 'such trafficking.'
In page 35, line 4, to leave out from the word 'for' to the word 'may' in line 6, and insert the words 'such trafficking.'
In page 35, line 8, to leave out from the word 'evidence' to end of Clause."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 35, line 24, to leave out from the word 'coming' to end of Clause."—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. DALZIELasked the right hon. Gentleman to say what was the exact meaning of his Amendment.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid it was merely a drafting Amendment.
§ MR. CALDWELLalso asked for an explanation. The words that the right 1423 hon. Gentleman proposed to leave out were as follows—
And provided also that every person who shall be convicted of bartering or selling spirits without having obtained a certificate shall, in default of the immediate payment of the penalty imposed upon him for such offence, be liable, in the discretion of the Court by which he shall be so convicted, to be imprisoned, as prescribed by the immediately preceding section, in the case of default of payment within four days after conviction.(2) Every person trafficking in any spirits or other excisable liquors in any place or premises without having obtained a certificate in that behalf in terms of this Act shall be guilty of an offence, and on being convicted thereof shall for each such offence forfeit and pay the full penalties provided in the immediately preceding section, together with the expenses of prosecution and conviction; and in default of immediate payment thereof shall be imprisoned for the periods respectively prescribed by the immediately preceding section.
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid this was practically the result of the Amendment that had just been passed to Clause 63. He could tell the hon. Member that the Amendments, as moved, were especially asked for by Mr. Renton, the Procurator-Fiscal for Edinburgh, Mr. Weilson, the Procurator-Fiscal for Glasgow, and Mr. Dewar, the Chief.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Page 36, line 30, to leave out the word 'by,' and insert the words 'under the provisions of.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. CROMBIE (Kincardineshire)said the Lord Advocate had promised on a previous occasion to consider the 1424 principle of the Amendment which he desired to submit to the House. His object was to place this Bill on the same basis as the English Act, under which a drunken person could be arrested and a penalty exacted for being incapable in the streets, whether or not he was "under the care or protection of some suitable person." It was always possible to find some person willing to undertake the charge of, and protect a drunken person.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 37, Hues 24 and 25, to leave out the words 'and not under the care or protection of some suitable person.'"—(Mr. Crombie.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the Bill as it stood was part of an old law of Scotland, and meant that any person drunk and incapable, or unable to take care of himself, or a nuisance to other persons, committed an offence. That was not so if they were in the care of some suitable person. As a matter of fact, these words were not in the Glasgow Act, and in Glasgow it would be found perfectly impossible to work on those lines. It was really going too far to take the mere fact of drunkenness as being a punishable offence, as, if that were enacted, they might invade any hon. Member's dining-room. It was going too far to attempt to make drunkenness per se an offence. If a man was found incapable of taking care of himself, and was a nuisance, he could be convicted, but if he was in the care of some other suitable person, he could not be. They were acting upon the lines of the law to which they had been accustomed.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid he had heard with the utmost surprise the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, which was oppposed to common sense. How could the right hon. Gentleman reconcile his present attitude with that which he took up in relation to the English Bill? He had told them that it was absurd to attempt to pass a similar provision for Scotland. It was a mistake to think that the Act was not carried out in England. A visit to any police court would show that the great majority of charges were for drunkenness in the streets on the part of people incapable of taking care of themselves. It was no protection in London for a drunk and incapable person to be in the company of a friend who was rather more sober than himself. He thought the Lord Advocate really ought to accept the very reasonable Amendment of his hon. friend.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid he was convinced that public sense had advanced since the Act of Scotland was passed.
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bull, William James | Doughty, George |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Duffy, William J. |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Chapman, Edward | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. |
| Atkinson, Right Hon. John | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Balcarres, Lord | Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Forster, Henry William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Balfour, Captain C. B. (Hornsey | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Fyler, John Arthur |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Saville | Garfit, William |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cullinan, J. | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Davenport, William Bromley | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Denny, Colonel | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elginand Nairn |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Dickson, Charles Scott | Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) |
§ The fact of a man allowing himself to be in a state of intoxication in the streets or public highways, whether he was or was not in charge of another person, was an offence against decency. If he got intoxicated and appeared in the public streets in the presence of people he was indecent, and ought to be punished in the usual way. There was no need to give a saving clause in the Bill to enable a drunken man to go through the streets in charge of friends. The Amendment ought to be accepted by the House.
§ MR. HENRY J. WILSON (Yorkshire, W. R., Holmfirth)said the Lord Advocate was quite wrong in thinking that intoxicated people were not arrested in England if they were under the care and protection of other persons. Such charges were being constantly made.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 152; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 180.)
| Gretton, John | Milvain, Thomas | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Groves, James Grimble | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Morrell, George Herbert | Seely-Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd | Mount, William Arthur | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Spear, John Ward |
| Heath James (Staffords, N. W. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath | Stamey, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm | Myers, William Henry | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Nicholson, William Graham | Talbot, Lord E. Chichester) |
| Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Johnstone Heywood | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. (Salop | O'Dowd, John | Valentia, Viscount |
| Kerr, John | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Percy, Earl | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R. | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Purvis, Robert | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale) | Renwick, George | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Wylie, Alexander |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Hood and Mr. Fellowes. |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Harwood, George | Rose, Charles Day |
| Asher, Alexander | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West | Shackleton, David James |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Joicey, Sir James | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Bill, Charles | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Kearley, Hudson E. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Brigg, John | Lambert, George | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall | Tennant, Harold John |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Tomkinson, James |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Toulmin, George |
| Caldwell, James | Levy, Maurice | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lewis, John Herbert | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) | Lough, Thomas | Weir, James Galloway |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Markham, Arthur Basil | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark. | Norman, Henry | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Partington, Oswald | Williams, O. (Merioneth) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Philipps, John Wynford | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Pirie, Duncan V. | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd |
| Edwards, Frank | Priestley, Arthur | |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Rickett, J. Compton | |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Rigg, Richard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Mr. Crombie and Mr. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Robson, William Snowdon | Black. |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Roe, Sir Thomas |
§ And, it being after Midnight, further consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), stood adjourned.
1428§ Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered to-morrow.
§ Adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.