HC Deb 13 July 1903 vol 125 cc481-516

As amended (by the Standing Committee), further considered.

MR. GROVES

formally moved the following Amendment standing in the name of Mr. Galloway.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 3, line 5, to leave out the words 'one-half,' and insert the words 'two-thirds.'"—(Mr. Groves.)

Question proposed "That the words 'one-half' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said if he were master of the situation he would be willing to accede to the Motion, but in the interests of the Bill he was bound to stand by the concessions made in Committee, and therefore he would advise the House to vote against the Amendment. The exact proportion was a question which did not matter one way or the other, but as he had had no hesitation in gauging the feeling of the Committee on this question he should stick to the Bill and oppose the Amendment now proposed.

Mr. GRETTON

thought there were weighty arguments in favour of the Amendment. The right hon. and learned Gentleman only said he felt bound by the compromise which had been arrived at in Committee, but it seemed to him to be an illogical proceeding to refer a decision come to by one body to another body largely composed of the original body which arrived at the decision. He thought it was seriously to be regretted that the compromise had been arrived at.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments proposed to the Bill— In page 3, line 10, after the word '(2),' insert the words 'Except as hereinafter provided' In page 3, lines 23 and 24, to leave out the words 'having a separate licensing Court and containing a population,' and insert the words 'containing a population of or exceeding seven thousand and.' In page 3, line 30, after the word 'Courts,' to insert the words 'and from any burgh licensing Court for a burgh situate within the county which is notspecified in the immediately preceding subsection.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendments agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 3, lines 39 and 40, to leave out the words 'a proprietor of lands or houses or has not a residence or a place of business,' and insert the words 'entered in the valuation roll in force for the time being as a proprietor, tenant, or occupier of lands or heritages.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. CHARLES DOUGLAS

said this Amendment provided for the representation of burghs on the county appeal Court in respect of decisions given by the burgh licensing committee being the subject of the review of the Court. As the Bill at present stood the burghs were left without any representation whatever in the appeal Court by which their decisions were reviewed. Although they might regard the question of Courts of first instance being settled this question of the Court of appeal was a separate question, and it was not an unreasonable suggestion to make that the burgh should be represented in the appeal Court in proportion to its population. He sincerely hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 4, line 3, at the end, to add the words '(a) The Court of appeal from a county licensing Court or county district licensing court as hereinbefore provided shall be modified by the addition thereto for each county of such a number of representatives, being magistrates from the burghs under 7,000 population, within each county as the Secretary for Scotland shall determine, by order under his hand, having regard to the relative population of the burghs and county respectively: Provided, that the number of magistrates to be determined as aforesaid shall not exceed the number of justices of the peace for the county contained in the Court of appeal; (b) The burgh representatives on the Court of appeal as provided in the immediately preceding subsection shall be elected at a meeting of the magistrates of the burghs without separate licensing Courts within each county, to be convened by the town clerk of the county town of each county on the third Tuesday of December one thousand nine hundred and four, and they shall hold office till the third Tuesday of December one thousand nine hundred and five, when they shall retire, and their successors

shall be elected at a meeting to be convened as aforesaid, and thereafter such retiral and election shall take place every third year at a meeting convened as aforesaid to be held on the third Tuesday of December, and the members so elected shall act for three years.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he did not like to refuse an Amendment moved in such temperate language. In this case there were no old rights of which burghs had been deprived. The burghs never had any part in the appeal Court. The appeal was to the county justices, and the burghs were now in a much better position than they were before, because instead of going to an irregular tribunal, as they previously did, they went now to a regular appeal Court. If this had not complicated the appeal Court he would have accepted the Amendment, but, as it would complicate it very much, he could not do so. He had considered the matter, and if anything could have moved him it would have been the temperate language of the hon. Member.

MR. DALZIEL

said he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman in all he had said. He thought this was a very important Amendment, and was sorry the right hon. Gentleman could not accept it. He hoped the hon. Member would go to a division upon it.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 56; Noes, 110. (Division List No. 150.)

AYES.
Black, Alexander William Edwards, Frank Markham, Arthur Basil
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Farquharson, Dr. Robert Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Brigg, John Fenwick, Charles Philipps, John Wynford
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Pirie, Duncan V.
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Griffith, Ellis J. Priestley Arthur
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Burns, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Burt, Thomas Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire Russell, T. W.
Caldwell, James Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Cameron, Robert Leng, Sir John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Levy, Maurice Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cremer, William Randal Lewis, John Herbert Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Crombie, John William Lough, Thomas Tennant, Harold John
Crooks, William Lundon, W. Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Dalkeith, Earl of M'Crae, George Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Wallace, Robert White, Luke (York, E. R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Mr. Charles Douglas and
Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Mr. Dalziel.
Weir, James Galloway Yoxall, James Henry
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Garfit, William Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n
Anstruther, H. T. Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Arkwright, John Stanhope Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) Percy, Earl
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gretton, John Plummer, Walter R.
Arrol, Sir William Groves James Grimble Pretyman, Ernest George
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. Purvis, Robert
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Helder, Augustus Randles, John S.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hogg, Lindsay Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Houston, Robert Paterson Reid, James (Greenock)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham Remnant, Jas. Farquharson
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Jameson, Major J. Eustace Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Johnstone, Heywood Roche, John
Bull, William James Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Royds, Clement Molyneux
Burke, E. Haviland Kerr, John Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Butcher, John George Keswick, William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) King, Sir Henry Seymour Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chapman, Edward Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Llewellyn, Evan Henry Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Coghill, Douglas Harry Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis MacIver, David (Liverpool) Smith, H. C. (Northmb, Tyneside
Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Spear, John Ward
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Crossley, Sir Savile M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Cullinan, J. M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.
Denny, Colonel Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Ure, Alexander
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Milvain, Thomas Valentia, Viscount
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts Mitchell, William (Burnley) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Dickson, Charles Scott Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir. Joseph C. Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Doogan, P. C. Morrell, George Herbert Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Flower, Ernest Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Flynn, James Christopher O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Forster, Henry William O'Dowd, John Sir Alexander Acland-
Fyler, John Arthur O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 4, line 31, to leave out from beginning of line to the word 'and,' in line 32."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DALKEITH

said the Amendment he now proposed might not be of great importance, but it seemed to him that in creating these clauses it would be unwise to restrict them, it would be much better to leave them unrestricted in these matters. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 6, line 10, to leave out Sub-section (11)."—(The Earl of Dalkeith.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'new' in line 12, stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he was not prepared to accept the Amendment. He would rather stick to the Bill as it was.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR JOHN LENG

said the Amendment he now proposed was to extend this clause to renewals as well as new licences. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 6, line 12, to leave out the word 'new.'"—(Sir John Leng.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'new' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he must oppose the Amendment because here again there was the question of the compromise. The Bill, as it stood, followed the old law, but this Amendment would entirely alter the law. Under the old law there was to be a majority in part because they had large irregular tribunals, but they now had regular tribunals. It was also questionable whether this Amendment was in order, having regard to what they had done in Sub-section 8 of the present clause, but he would not take that point. The idea was that where they were altering the status quo they must have an absolute majority. He had given way on the question of a new certificate in regard to which they must have an absolute majority, but when it was a case of appeal on renewal then they had a person who had already got a certificate and he was entitled to a renewal. He thought it was rather hard in an appeal case to insist upon an absolute majority. In every case if a new certificate was required they were bound to have a

majority. Therefore he could not accept the Amendment.

MR. DALZIEL

said he was sorry that the Lord Advocate had made a mistake in this matter. The question was whether the chairman had the power of a casting vote in regard to a renewal just as he had in regard to a new application. It was not a question of the merits. Whether it was an old or a new certificate was not the question the Committee had to decide, but it was the question of the power of the chairman, and if he had a casting vote in one case why should he not have it in an altogether different case? He hoped the hon. Member for Dundee would adhere to his very reasonable Amendment, and if he did he should support him.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 63. (Division List No. 151.)

AYES.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Flower, Ernest Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Flynn, James Christopher Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Anstruther, H. T. Forster, Henry William Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fyler, John Arthur Myers, William Henry
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Garfit, William Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Arrol, Sir William Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim O'Dowd, John
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Goulding, Edward Alfred Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Bain, Colonel James Robert Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) Parkes, Ebenezer
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r Gretton, John Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Groves, James Grimble Percy, Earl
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) Plummer, Walter R.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Heath, James (Staff's., N. W.) Pretyman, Ernest George
Bull, William James Hogg, Lindsay Purvis, Robert
Burke, E. Haviland Houston, Robert Paterson Randles, John S.
Butcher, John George Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Reid, James (Greenock)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Johnstone, Heywood Remnant, James Farquharson
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc Kerr, John Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Chapman, Edward Keswick, William Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cranborne, Viscount Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Llewellyn, Evan Henry Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Crossley, Sir Savile Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Cullinan, J. Loyd, Archie Kirkman Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyneside
Dalkeith, Earl of Macdona, John Cumming Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Denny, Colonel M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Spear, John Ward
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Stone, Sir Benjamin
Dickson, Charles Scott M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Tollemache, Henry James
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Milvain, Thomas Valentia, Viscount
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Mitchell, William (Burnley) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Webb, Col. William George
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. Taunton
Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Wilson, John (Falkirk) Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson Sir Alexander Acland-
Wilson, John (Glasgow) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
NOES.
Black, Alexander William Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brigg, John Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Langley, Batty Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Tennant, Harold John
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Levy, Maurice Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.
Burt, Thomas Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Caldwell, James Lough, Thomas Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Cameron, Robert M'Crae, George Ure, Alexander
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. Wallace, Robert
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Cremer, William Randal Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Crombie, John William Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Weir, James Galloway
Crooks, William Partington, Oswald White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Philipps, John Wynford Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank Pirie, Duncan V. Yoxall, James Henry
Elibank, Master of Priestley, Arthur
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries)
Fenwick, Charles Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Ferguson R. C. Munro (Leith Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Sir John Leng and Mr.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Russell, T. W. Dalziel.
Griffith, Ellis J. Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 6, line 12, after the word 'certificate,' to insert the words 'or renewal.'"—(Sir John Leng.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill"

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

hoped the hon. Member would not persist in his Amendment. He had already taken the sense of the House on his previous Amendments, and the case for this Amendment was infinitely weaker.

SIR JOHN LENG

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— In page 12, line 5, to leave out from the word 'premises,' to end of Sub-section (1), and insert the words 'and notwithstanding the repeal of any enactment by this Act the duty payable upon any Excise licence granted in pursuance of such a certificate shall continue to be at the same rate as was exigible for a similar licence immediately before the passing of this Act.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. BUCHANAN

said he was under the impression that this clause was not in the Bill considered upstairs, but was one of the Amendments of the general law submitted by the Lord Advocate.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he had already stated that this was a drafting Amendment and made no difference whatsoever in the effect of the clause.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 12, line 18, to leave out the word 'eleventh,' and insert the words 'twenty-eighth.'"—(Sir John Leng.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'eleventh' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

I will accept this Amendment.

Question put and negatived.

Question "That the words 'twenty-eighth' be then inserted, put, and agreed to."

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 13, line 24, at the end, to insert the words 'For the purpose of preventing repeated applications for new certificates a Licensing Court may at any general half-yearly meeting make regulations determining the time which must elapse after the hearing and refusal of one application for a certificate before another application may be made in respect of the same premises. Provided that the Court may in their discretion, for good cause shown, dispense with the observance of these regulations in any particular case.'"—(Mr. Hunter Craig.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said the hon. Member had told the House how he had once to travel 800 miles in order to prevent the granting of a licence, and he said it was very hard that the same application for licences should be put forward again and again. As he had already explained to the Committee, he did not think that any difficulty would arise in the future. In the old days there was a sort of moving Court of justice, that was to say, any body could be got together, and he could understand a person anxious to obtain a licence which had previously been refused him, desiring, to use a sporting phrase, to have a run for his money in the new Court. Under this Bill they would have a stable Court which would meet twice a year, and he did not see why it should not do any business put before it. He did not see any grievance even if they had the importunate widow coming more than once with the same application. Many people had to do business which they did not altogether like, and this was an Amendment which the Government could not accept. It would be just as reasonable for the Government to propose a regulation to prevent any hon. Member who had already moved two Amendments from moving a third. If they put into the law any provision, like that which the hon. Member had proposed, for making regulations to prevent people from making renewed applications they would get into great difficulties.

SIR ROBERT REID

said the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the Bill would set up a more stable Court which would not be liable to the same influences as the old Court. If that were so, there was nothing in this Amendment which would interfere with that, and the proposal of his hon. friend would not lay down a hard and fast rule. These Courts in the past had been frequently worried by constant and useless applications by persons to whom the Courts had resolved not to give licences, and this Amendment proposed to give the Courts an opportunity, if the circumstances demanded it, to make a regulation preventing repeated applications in a particular case. He agreed, that it was not a matter of great importance but it was reasonable, and he thought it would discourage this troublesome practice.

MR. DALZIEL

said the Lord Advocate had drawn a comprise between this Amendment and the Rules of the House, and he stated that it would be just as reasonable to make a Rule preventing an hon. Member who had moved two Amendments from moving a third. He wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman that in such a case an hon. Member would be acting in accordance with the Rules of the House, and if a question was decided in the House on one day it could not be decided again the next day or the day after. This was not a question of a fresh licence, but a question of repeated applications for the same premises.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

replied that an hon. Member could move a Bill one year in the House and move it again the next year. As a matter of fact, he had heard the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs make the same speech year after year.

MR. DALZIEL

said he was indebted to the Lord Advocate for his great compliment, although he was not aware of it and he should be glad to know upon what particular subject he had acted in the way suggested. This was not a question of the Rules of the House or of the Court, but it was a question of having repeated applications to renew the certificate of licence for certain premises. That meant that the community were in a state of continual friction in regard to the application. It was unreasonable that the same application for the same premises could be made every six months, and it should be in the power of the court to make regulations of the kind proposed.

MR. HUNTER CRAIG

said that a somewhat similar clause was inserted in the English Bill with reference to transfers, and therefore he did not see why the Lord Advocate should consider such a clause objectionable when proposed for the Scotch Bill. The grievance was doubly felt in Scotland, because, while the English licensing meeting only took place once a year, and the licensing committee could determine what time should elapse before the application could be renewed, under the Scotch Bill the application could come up four times as against once in England. It was a very great hardship that the licensing

authority should be pestered by the same man coming every six months with the same application. In a portion of his constituency of Govan, which had a population of 6,000, there was not a single public house, and the community were pestered by the same people applying for licences every six months. They had to get up a Vigilance Committee and canvass the community against the applications. That was a source of great annoyance and trouble to the inhabitants of the place. The Amendment was a reasonable one, and he hoped the House would accept it.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 71; Noes, 154. (Division List No 152.)

AYES.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Gurdon Sir W. Brampton Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Brigg, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Brown George M. (Edinburgh) Horniman, Frederick John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Jones, William Carnarvonshire Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Langley, Batty Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Burt, Thomas Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Tennant, Harold John
Caldwell, James Layland-Barratt, Francis Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Cameron, Robert Leng, Sir John Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Levy, Maurice Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Lewis, John Herbert Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Toulmin, George
Crombie, John William M'Crae George Ure, Alexander
Crooks, William M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. Wallace, Robert
Dalziel, James Henry Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Weir, James Galloway
Duncan J. Hastings Newnes, Sir George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Dunn, Sir William Partington, Oswald Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Edwards, Frank Philipps, John Wynford Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Elibank, Master of Pirie, Duncan V. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Priestley, Arthur Yoxall, James Henry
Fenwick, Charles Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Robertson Edmund (Dundee) Mr. Hunter Craig and
Griffith, Ellis J. Russell, T. W. Mr. Black.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Brassey, Albert Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bull, William James Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Saville
Anstruther, H. T. Butcher, John George Cullinan, J.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Dalkeith, Earl of
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cayzer, Sir Charles William Denny, Colonel
Arrol, Sir William Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc. Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Chapman, Edward Dickson, Charles Scott
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cohen, Benjamin Louis Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Condon, Thomas Joseph Doogan, P. C.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Cranborne, Viscount Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Donglas
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Loyd, Archie Kirkman Roche, John
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Macdona, John Cumming Royds, Clement Molyneux
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Rutherford, John (Lancashire
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Flower, Ernest M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse
Forster, Henry William Manners, Lord Cecil Seely, Maj. J. E. B, (Isle of Wigh
Fyler, John Arthur Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Garfit, William Milvain, Thomas Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Mitchell, William (Barnley) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin and N'rn Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside)
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Gretton, John Mount, William Arthur Spear, John Ward
Groves, James Grimble Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Stanley, Lord (Lancashire)
Hambro, Charles Eric Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Harris, Frederick Leverton Myers, William Henry Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Stroyan, John
Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) O'Dowd, John Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Tollemache, Henry James
Heaton, John Henniker Parkes, Ebenezer Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Henderson, Sir Alexander Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n Valentia, Viscount
Hogg, Lindsay Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Houston, Robert Paterson Percy, Earl Webb, Col. William George
Howard, J. (Midd. Tuttenham) Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Jameson, Major J. Eustace Platt-Higgins, Frederick Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Johnstone, Heywood Plammer, Walter R. Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson John (Glasgow)
Kerr, John Purvis, Robert Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Keswick, William Randles, John S. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
King, Sir Henry Seymour Ratcliffe, R. F. Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Rattigan, Sir William Henry Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R. Reid, James (Greenock)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Remnant, James Farquharson TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Sir Alexander Acland-
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Question put, and agreed to.

SIR ROBERT REID

asked permission to put a Question to the Lord Advocate in regard to Clause 18. Would there be any difficulty in the matter of machinery in a Court requiring a person concerned to attend?

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said the law here was simply the law as it stood. There was no alteration.

MR. GRETTON

moved an Amendment with the object of restricting the right of appeal in cases where objectors did not appear in the first instance before the licensing authority. The clause provided:— If any member of a licensing Court, or proprietor or occupier of any house or premises in respect whereof any such certificate shall be applied for, or proprietor or occupier of property in the neighbourhood of such house, shall be dissatisfied with any proceeding of any licensing Court assembled for granting certificates as aforesaid, whether in granting or refusing or otherwise disposing of any such application, it shall be lawful to such member of the licensing Court, proprietor, or occupier, to appeal therefrom to the next Court of appeal from such licensing Court. It appeared to him that no such right of appeal was at all requisite. An appeal should only be available to those who had previously been represented before the licensing authority, or to public officers who might have some claim to be heard. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 17, line 1, to leave out the words 'or proprietor or occupier of property in the neighbourhood of such house.'"—(Mr. Gretton.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he could not accept the Amendment, but he had on the Paper two Amendments to limit the right of appeal to proprietors or occupiers of property who appeared in the Court of First Instance in objection to the granting or renewal of the licence. He thought his Amendments would really meet the hon. Member's point, and would deal with it more appropriately than by leaving out the words altogether.

SIR ROBERT REID

said if this was propounded in the sense of a compromise, and was acceptable to hon. Members on this side of the House, he did not wish to spoil the proceedings by objecting. It appeared to him an astonishing thing to deny to the owner or occupier of a valuable residence the right of appeal against the granting or renewal of a licence which might diminish the value of his property by one-half. If any hon. Member was disposed to go to a division in regard to the Lord Advocate's proposition he would support him, but as he wished to recognise the spirit of compromise he would not himself do anything to mar peaceful proceedings. At the same time he must object to what appeared to him a perfectly monstrous proposal.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 17, line 1, after the first word 'or,' to insert the words 'if any.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 17, line 2, after the word 'house,' to insert the words 'who has objected before the licensing Court to the granting or renewal of any such certificate.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment greed to.

MR. BLACK

said he had an Amendment on the Paper which raised the question of the bonâ fide traveller. There were many inns and hotels in the neighbourhood of large towns and cities which were used only for the purpose of Sunday drinking. His Amendment would enable the licensing Court to limit the licence so that the applicant should not be permitted to admit travellers to his inn or hotel on Sunday. The Lord Advocate had given an undertaking in Committee that this matter would, be considered on Report. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 22, line 17, after the word 'Sunday,' to insert the words 'or when in any case the Court considers that the premises should be closed during the whole of Sunday.'"—(Mr. Black.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he had considered the matter, and he could not accept the Amendment. At present the law was that a six days licence was a matter for the licencee to decide for himself. If he only wished a six days licence, he had simply to go to the Inland Revenue Office and he would get it. But it seemed to him that there was no right in the magistrates or licensing authority to force a six days licence on any applicant, and upon the whole he thought that that was the best position for the law to be in. He did not think it would be for the advantage of the public that the licensing Court should be able to say to an applicant "We will not grant you a full hotel licence but only a six days licence." That was to say that no liquor should ever be supplied to travellers at all on Sundays

MR. BLACK

said a lodger would have the power to get what liquor he wanted, but not a passing traveller.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he did not think that on the whole that would be right. If there was no possibility of supplying a traveller at all, it would not matter whether the traveller was a bonâ fide or a malâ fide traveller.

MR. CROMBIE

said he really wished the Lord Advocate would give this subject more consideration. The chief constables of the country seemed to be unanimous that the great blot on the Bill was the absence of a definition of the bonâ fide traveller. There were certain districts near large towns where the bonâ fide traveller hardly existed, and he thought the licensing authority should have the power proposed to be given in his hon. friend's Amendment. He hoped that if the Lord Advocate could not accept the Amendment in its present shape he would propose something else to carry out the object in view.

MR. DALZIEL

said the great difficulty at present was to know who the bonâ fide traveller was. He knew a case where the name entered on the visitors' book was that of the hon. Member for Camborne. He knew very well that his hon. friend was not in the habit of visiting public houses in the neighbourhood of Glasgow.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

Hoc prœtexit nomine culpam.

MR. DALZIEL

said that of course visitors did not use their own names, but somebody else's by way of joke.

SIR WILFRID LAWSON (Cornwall, Camborne)

said he believed that not only was his own name used in the visitors' book, but also those of several Bishops.

SIR ROBERT REID

said that the Lord Advocate ought surely to pay attention to the remonstrances of the Scotch Members in matters of this kind.

MR. PARKER SMITH

said he knew districts in the Highlands where a six days' licence would be taken out to the great inconvenience of travellers and bicyclists. He also knew districts near Glasgow where the bonâ fide traveller went to get bonâ fide liquor. He thought the licensing authority ought to have authority to intervene in these matters. Licencees often declined to do what was to the general convenience of the public in order to follow their own idea of what was right.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 165. (Division List No. 153.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander Horniman, Frederick John Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones William (Carnarvonshire Smith, H. C. (Northumb. Tyneside
Brigg, John Langley, Batty Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Spear, John Ward
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Layland-Barratt, Francis Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Leng, Sir John Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)
Burt, Thomas Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Tennant, Harold John
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Cameron, Robert Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Sir A. (Glammorgan E.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lough, Thomas Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) M'Crae, Sir George Thomson, F. W. (York W.
Cremer, William Randal M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. Toulmin, George
Crombie, John William Mansfield, Horace Rendall Ure, Alexander
Dalziel, James Henry Markham, Arthur Basil Wallace, Robert
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Denny Colonel Newnes, Sir George Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Partington, Oswald Weir, James Galloway
Duncan, J. Hastings Philipps, John Wynford White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Dunn, Sir William Pirie, Duncan V. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Edwards, Frank Plummer, Walter R. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Elibank, Master of Priestley, Arthur Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Fenwick, Charles Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Russell, T. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Mr. Black and Mr. Hunter
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) Craig.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Shipman, Dr. John G.
NOES
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Garfit, William Myers, William Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Anstruther, H. T. Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn. Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Arkwright, John Stanhope Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Goulding, Edward Alfred Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Arrol, Sir William Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Percy, Earl
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gretton, John Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Groves, James Grimble Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hambro, Charles Eric Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balcarres, Lord Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x Pretyman, Ernest George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manchr Hare, Thomas Leigh Purvis, Robert
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Harris, Frederick Leverton Randles, John S.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Ratcliff, R. F.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. Reid, James (Greenock)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Henderson, Sir Alexander Remnant, James Farquharson
Brassey, Albert Hogg, Lindsay Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Houston, Robert Paterson Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Bull, William James Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Butcher, John George Jameson, Major J. Eustace Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Johnstone, Heywood Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kenyot-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc Kerr, John Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander
Chapman, Edward Keswick, William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Coghill, Douglas Harry Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Llewellyn, Evan Henry Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cranborne, Viscount Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lowe, Francis William Stroyan, John
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Loyd, Archie Kirkman Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cullinan, J. Macdona, John Cumming Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Dalkeith, Earl of M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool Taylor, Austin (East Toxeth)
Devlin Joseph (Kenny, N.) M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.) Tollemache, Henry James
Dickson, Charles Scott M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- M'Killop W. (Sligo North) Valentia, Viscount
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. Manners, Lord Cecil Walrond Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Martin, Richard Biddulph Webb, Col. William George
Doogan, P. C. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milvain, Thomas Whiteley, H, (Ashton und. Lyne
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Mitchell, William (Burnley) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Fisher, William Hayes Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose- Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morrison, James Archibald Young, Samuel
Flower, Ernest Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Forster, Henry William Mount, William Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Forster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Sir Alexander Acland-
Foster, John Arthur Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 23, line 7, at beginning, to insert Lords either (1).'"—(The Lord Advocate

Amendment agreed to.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said it had been represented to him that the clause as it stood might inflict hardship on town restaurant keepers who, in places like Glasgow, were in the habit of providing breakfasts for large parties of excursionists and had no intention of supplying them with exciseable liquors. The clause would prevent them opening their doors before a certain hour in the morning, and that restriction, under the circumstances, was not desirable. He proposed to meet the difficulty by allowing restaurants to be opened earlier than usual for the sale of provisions and temperance drinks only.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 23, line 11, to leave out the word 'and,' and insert the words or (2) to open any restaurant for which a public-house certificate is held or keep the same open for the sale and consumption of provisions and refreshments of any kind other than exciseable liquors on such public or special occasion, and for that purpose only during such time, and before or beyond the hours prescribed by his certificate for opening and closing respectively, Sunday excepted, and in either case.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 23, line 34, after the word 'permission,' to insert the words 'to sell exciseable liquors.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. GROVES

said Clause 41 proposed to give the licensing authority power to close licensed premises either wholly or partially on any occasion they might think fit. He proposed to move the omission of those words because he held that the power proposed be given went beyond what was necessary. He could imagine some licensing bodies which might make rules and regulations of so drastic a nature as to be almost impossible of administration. It was very desirable that there should be uniformity in the administration of the licensing laws, and that power should not be given to close houses an unlimited number of days in any one year.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 23, lines 40 and 41, to leave out the words 'and on such other occasions as the licensing Court may deem fit and expedient for special reasons.'"—(Mr. Groves.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL

thought the Government would make a very great mistake if they accepted this Amendment. The object of the Bill was to give a strong licensing authority power to deal with special questions coming before them. This was eminently a question on which, if they did their duty at all, they ought to be able to arrive at a reasonable decision. He had never heard any objection to this proposal except from those who were engaged in supplying the public with liquor. He hoped the House would leave it in the power of the licensing authority to make arrangements in the public interest, in the interest of public order, and the decent conduct of the trade on great public occasions.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said the clause as it stood was carried against his opposition in the Committee. The original proposal related to New Year's Day only. He had not felt it his duty to invoke the powers of the Government to put a side what was done in Committee. He had however, put down an Amendment practically the same as that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Partick limiting the number of days to four in one year. He thought that would meet the views of hon. Gentlemen, and under the circumstances he should not seek to influence the decision of the House on this Amendment.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

hoped that what had fallen from the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow would not be lost on the. Committee. He trusted that at any rate the Lord Advocate would and here to his own proposal, for to limit the power of cloth to New Year's Dray would have a very prejudicial effect on the conduct of [...] licensing system.

SIR LEWIS MCIVER

said the Amendment seemed to him absolutely puerile and nugatory. It would defeat the very object of the clause and he hoped, therefore, it would not be accepted.

MR. PARKER SMITH

hoped the House would adhere to the provision with the limitation suggested by the Lord Advocate. The matter was fully discussed in Committee, and though the feeling there was that the words as they stood would constitute a sufficient provision against compulsory closing on an undue number of days, and that they would preclude a licensing authority proposing to include Saturdays and pay days, there could be no objection to making the object of the clause clearer, and to showing that only exceptional and special occasions were to be dealt with. Anyone acquainted with Scotland well knew what a difference it made in the streets if at critical times the liquor shops were closed. The provision was carried in the Committee by twenty-seven to ten, and he honed that on this question at least the English Members would allow themselves to be guided by the views of the Scottish Members on both sides of the House.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR

said it would be necessary to negative the Amendment in order that the Lord Advocate's limitation might be introduced.

THE EARL OF DALKEITH

regretted that the Lord Advocate had not repeated the speech he made upstairs. It was, in his opinion, most undesirable that the licensing authorities should be able to close public houses on different days. Not to have a regular system would be most inconvenient.

MAJOR JAMESON (Clare, W.)

intervened in the debate because he held this to be an Imperial question. If the clause were passed as it stood, it would be possible for the licensing authorities to close liquor shops on any day of the week they chose. He objected to that, and he hoped, therefore, that the Amendment would be pressed to a division. It would be a gross injustice to everybody connected with the trade, and a great inconvenience to the public. He did not like this wretched grandmotherly legislation. Presently they would be told by law what they were to have for breakfast. The liberty of the subject ought not to be thus infringed upon, and he therefore hoped that every Member of the House would support the Amendment.

MR CROMBIE

pointed out that these by-laws when made would not become operative until they had been approved by the Secretary for Scotland, and it was unlikely that unreasonable by-laws would be sanctioned.

SIR MARK STEWART

hoped the House would not alter the clause. He had received many communications indicating that this was deemed to be one of the most valuable provisions of the Bill, and he hoped, therefore, it would not be passed in an emasculated form.

MR. DALZIEL

said it was remarkable that the opposition to the clause came from two hon. Members, one from England and the other from Ireland. Surely the hon. Member for West Clare, if he were true to his Home Rule principles, would allow Scottish Members to settle this question for themselves. It was a purely Scottish question, and certainly did not rise to high Imperial heights. It was ridiculous to suggest that the Edinburgh or Dundee Councils were not competent to make by-laws with regard to a matter of that kind. He regretted very much the attitude of the Lord Advocate. Why by did he not stand by the proposal as contained in the Bill? It was a pity he had no settled convictions. Let him institute an inquiry; it could have only one result. What was he going to do in regard to this Amendment?

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

I shall vote against it.

MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.)

hoped the English supporters of the Government would be informed that they were at perfect liberty to vote how they liked on this question.

MR. BUCHANAN

did not think the Lord Advocate had behaved quite fairly in this matter. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] There was a majority of three to one in the Committee in favour of the clause, but now the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to introduce limitations, which showed that he had not much confidence in the authorities he was setting up. The clause did not empower the licensing authorities to shut up licensed premises as many days as they liked; it merely gave them a certain discretion on certain public occasions, and that discretion was subject to the veto of the Secretary for Scotland. It was, in fact, the most limited power they could give to the licensing authorities they were setting up.

MR. GROVES

explained that he moved the Amendment on behalf of an hon. friend. It was only fair to himself to state that he had never done any business in Scotland, and he had no pecuniary interest in that country.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

, in order to come to a harmonious conclusion suggested it should be on a definite number of occasions to be approved by the Secretary for Scotland. If so agreed the number should not exceed five.

SIR J. STIRLING MAXWELL

said there was no understanding in Committee on the part of the Ministry with regard to this point.

MR. ASHER

said he was responsible for the instructions in Grand Committee for the words "special reasons." There was no understanding that the operation of this part of the clause should be limited to a given number of days, indeed, the words at the end, "for special reasons," were inserted for the express purpose of preventing the licensing authorities from closing houses. The number of days might vary from time to time. There might be a special day one year which might not be applicable in another year. The view taken in Committee was that wider discretion should be given to the licensing authorities in this matter.

MR. BRYCE

said it appeared to him that this provisional power was guarded not only by the addition of the words "for special reasons," but also by the requirement of the consent of the Secretary for Scotland. He could not imagine it being opposed. His impression was that it was not likely to be extended to the number of days suggested, and the House did not incur the slightest risk in accepting it. He was glad to hear that the Lord Advocate was himself of that opinion.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 23, line 40, to leave out the word 'occasions' and insert the words 'days not being more than four in any one year."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'occasions' stand part of the Bill."

MR. DALZIEL

said it seemed to him in view of the decision that the House had just arrived at, they ought to be given some reason why they should limit it to four days in the year, because the whole debate turned on the question of whether they were going to trust the authorities. If that were so, they had decided to trust them, and why should they cut down their powers and limit them to four or five days. It seemed to him that they were unnecessarily restricting the authority of their powers, and therefore he opposed the Amendment.

MR. PARKER SMITH

did not think Amendment really limited the powers any extent. The Lord Advocate had met them fairly on this point.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

also thought the Lord Advocate had met them fairly. He was ready to support the Amendment.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes, 181. (Division List No. 154.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander Brigg, John Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Barran, Rowland Hirst Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Caldwell, James
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Robson, William Snowdon
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark Layland-Barratt, Francis Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland
Cremer, William Randal Leigh, Sir Joseph Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crombie, John William Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Levy, Maurice Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Duncan, J. Hastings Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Dunn, Sir William Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Edwards, Frank Lough, Thomas Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Elibank, Master of M'Crae, George Toulmin, George
Farquharson, Dr. Robert M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj. Wallace, Robert
Fenwick, Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Furness, Sir Christopher Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Griffith, Ellis J. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Weir, James Galloway
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Moulton, John Fletcher White, Luke (York, E. R.
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Newnes, Sir George Whitely, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Partington, Oswald Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Horniman, Frederick John Philipps, John Wynford
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Pirie, Duncan V. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Lambert, George Priestley, Arthur Mr. Dalziel and Mr.
Langley, Batty Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Harmsworth.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas Lloyd, Archie Kirkman
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) Macdona, John Cumming
Anson, Sir William Reynell Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Anstruther, H. T. Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Arrol, Sir William Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Martin, Richard Biddulph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fisher, William Hayes Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Flavin, Michael Joseph Milvain, Thomas
Bain, Colonel James Robert Flower, Ernest Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Baird, John George Alexander Forster, Henry William Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)
Balcarres, Lord Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Fyler, John Arthur Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Garfit, William Morrell, George Herbert
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morrison, James Archibald
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin and Nairn Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop Mount, William Arthur
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goulding, Edward Alfred Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Bill, Charles Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Black, Alexander William Gretton, John Myers, William Henry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Groves, James Grimble Nicholson, William Graham
Brassey, Albert Hall, Edward Marshall O'Dowd, John
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John Hambro, Charles Eric O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Butcher, John George Hare, Thomas Leigh Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Harris, Frederick Leverton Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) Percy, Earl
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc. Henderson, Sir Alexander Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chapman, Edward Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somers't, E. Plummer, Walter R.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hogg, Lindsay Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Houston, Robert Paterson Pretyman, Ernest George
Collings, Right Hon. Jesse Jameson, Major J. Eustace Purvis, Robert
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Randles, John S.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Johnstone, Heywood Ratcliff, R. F.
Cranborne, Viscount Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Keswick, William Reid, James (Greenock)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Kilbride, Denis Remnant, James Farquharson
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile King, Sir Henry Seymour Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Cullinan, J. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dalkeith, Earl of Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Denny, Colonel Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.) Roche, John
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Round, Rt. Hon. James
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Royds, Clement Molyneux
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. Leng, Sir John Runciman, Walter
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Llewellyn, Evan Henry Russell, T. W.
Doogan, P. C. Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Rutherford, John (Lancashire
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Bristol, S. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lowe, Francis William Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. Ox'd Univ. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Tennant, Harold John Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings Worsley-Taylor Henry Wilson
Smith, H. C. (North'mb, Tyneside Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) Tollemache, Henry James Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. Young, Samuel
Spear, John Ward Valentia, Viscount
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Webb, Col. William George Sir Alexander Acland-
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M. Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Stroyan, John Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

Question put, and agreed to.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

*MR. SHAW-STEWART (Renfrew, E.)

moved— In Clause 41, page 24, line 4, leave out 'excisable liquors' and insert 'wines and spirits. He said the object of the Amendment was to limit the corking or the stoppering of bottles to wines and spirits. When this Amendment was proposed in Committee it was only lost by a few votes. He would point out that under the Bill it would still be possible to obtain bottled beer and whisky from the grocers, and surely draught ales were milder than bottled ales and whisky. Another argument in favour of the Amendment was that there were areas of considerable extent in big towns where there were no public houses, and where people were in the habit of getting draught liquors from the licensed grocers. If this Amendment were not accepted would they not be driving the people either to consume stronger liquors or to agitate for more public houses to be set up in their midst. If he thought this Amendment would act against temperance he should not propose it, but he did think it was reasonable and convenient for the public that it should be passed. It would encourage the sale of light rather than strong liquor, and he would point out that neither the Majority nor the Minority Report advocated any change in this respect.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 24, line 4, to leave out the words 'exciseable liquors,' and insert the words 'wines and spirits.'"—(Mr. Shaw-Stewart.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'exciseable liquors' stand part of the Bill."

MR. BUCHANAN

said he looked upon this as a very substantial alteration in the Bill. It meant that the very considerable amount of drink sold by the grocers would be sold openly on draught and not in sealed vessels. The trade which they carried on would be considerably altered by this Amendment, and it ought not to be accepted without some explanation from the Lord Advocate.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

did not think the point a very great one. It only applied to draught beer sold by grocers. So far as he could gather from the evidence brought before him he did not think there had been any abuse in this matter by the grocers, and accordingly in Committee he voted to leave out the words "excisable liquors." So far as the Amendment went it was then beaten, not by a large majority, but by twenty-one to fifteen, and, without in any way binding the Government, he would follow his own opinion and vote in its support.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 159. (Division List No. 155.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander Harmsworth, R. Leicester Rickett, J. Compton
Barran, Rowland Hirst Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Black, Alexander William Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. H. (Som'rs't, E Runciman, Walter
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Horniman, Frederick John Russell, T. W.
Brigg, John Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Lambert, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Langley, Batty Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall Smith, H. C. (North'mb, Tyneside
Caldwell, James Layland-Barratt, Francis Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Leigh, Sir Joseph Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark.) Leng, Sir John Tennant, Harold John
Cremer, William Randal Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Crombie, John William Levy, Maurice Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyc
Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Crae, George Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R).
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Laren. Sir Charles Benj. Toulmin, George
Dunn, Sir William Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Edwards, Frank Markham, Arthur Basil Weir, James Galloway
Elibank, Master of Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Moulton, John Fletcher Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fenwick, Charles Newnes, Sir George Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Partington, Oswald
Furness, Sir Christopher Philipps, John Wynford TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Pilkington, Colonel Richard Mr. Buchanan and Mr.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Pirie, Duncan V. Eugene Wason.
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd Priestley, Arthur
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Dalkeith, Earl of Hogg, Lindsay
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Denny, Colonel Houston, Robert Paterson
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Anson, Sir William Reynell Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Jeffreys, Rt. Hu. Arthur Fred
Anstruther, H. T. Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C. Johnstone, Heywood
Arkwright, John Stanhope Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Kerr, John
Arrol, Sir William Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Keswick, William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) King, Sir Henry Seymour
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool
Baird, John (George Alexander Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R
Balcarres, Lord Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Fisher, William Hayes Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Flavin, Michael Joseph Lowe, Francis William
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Flower, Ernest Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Forster, Henry, William Macdona, John Cumming
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bill, Charles Fyler, John Arthur M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Brassey, Albert Garfit, William M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Godson, Sir, Augustus Frederick M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Bull, William James Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin and N'rn M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Butcher, John George Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop Manners, Lord Cecil
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Martin, Richard Biddulph
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) Milvain, Thomas
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gretton, John Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Chapman, Edward Groves, James Grimble Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hall, Edward Marshall Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Hambro, Charles Eric Morrell, George Herbert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh Morrison, James Archibald
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Harris, Frederick Leverton Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Cranborne, Viscount Heath, Arthur H. (Harley) Mount, William Arthur
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.) Murphy, John
Crossley, Sir Savile Henderson, Sir Alexander Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Tollemache, Henry James
Myers, William Henry Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Nicholson, William Graham Round, Rt. Hon. James Valentia, Viscount
O'Dowd, John Royds, Clement Molyneux Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
O'K'elly, Conor (Mago, N.) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Webb, Colonel William George
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Wellby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Pease, Herbt, Pike (Darlington Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Percy, Earl Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wilson, John (Glasgow
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Skewes-Cox, Thomas Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Smith, James Parker (Lanarks Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) Young, Samuel
Purvis, Robert Spear, John Ward
Randles, John S. Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Ratcliff, R. F. Stirling-MaxWell, Sir John M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rattigan, Sir William Henry Stroyan, John Mr. Shaw-Stewart and Sir
Reid, James (Greenock) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ Charles Renshaw.
Remnant, James Farquharson Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Words "wines and spirits" there inserted in the Bill.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 24, line 19, to leave out the words 'with other information as may be considered by them necessary.'"—(Mr. Gretton,)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR JOHN LENG

moved to omit the words in Clause 42 "to be consumed on the premises." He said that the object of the Amendment was to ensure the premises of grocers and dealers who held licences being dealt with in precisely the same way as ordinary licensed premises. He failed to see why any distinction should be drawn.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 25, line 2, to leave out the words 'to be consumed on the premises.'"—(Sir John Leng.)

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

did not think it was at all necessary that the licensing authority should have the same command over the structural arrangements of grocers' premises as they had in the case of public-houses. He should therefore resist the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House proceeded to a division.

Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD

, and Mr. AILWYN FELLOWES were appointed Tellers for the Ayes; but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.

SIR JOHN LENG

moved to omit the words "in that part of the premises where excisable liquor is sold or consumed." He said that this raised a different question from the last Amendment, and referred particularly to the sanitary conveniences, which it was very desirable should be brought under the supervision of the licensing authority.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 25, lines 28 and 29, to leave out the words 'in that part of the premises where excisable liquor is sold or consumed."—(Sir John Leng.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

And, it being Midnight, consideration of the Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), stood adjourned.

Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), to be further considered upon Wednesday.