§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.
§ (2.30.) [Mr. J. W. Lowther (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
* THE CHAIRMANruled the first four or five Amendments on the Paper out of order, including one in the name of the hon. Member for the Rugby Division of Warwickshire, which he held did not constitute a condition of maintenance.
§ MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)Could that not be dealt with in a separate sub-Section.
* THE CHAIRMANNot on this Clause. It should follow Clause 7. As to the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Elland Division of Yorkshire, the first part, that dealing with the use of the school for political meetings, is in order, but the second is not.
§ MR. TREVELYAN (Yorkshire, W.R., Elland)said he proposed if it were in order to insert after the word "use" the words "free of charge."
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)pointed out, in regard to the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, that its object was to safe-guard the managers—a very different point from that decided on the previous day, which dealt with the damage that might be done either by the local authority or by the managers. His hon. friend proposed that the persons who convened the meeting should pay the managers for any damage that might be done.
§ SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)suggested that it might be more convenient to deal with this point on an Amendment which he had further down on the Paper, empowering the local authority to make regulations.
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid he thought he was quite in order in adding the words "free of charge," and that being so, it seemed to him to be a necessary sequence that provisions should be made, as he proposed in the latter part of his Amendment, for payment to the trustees for any damage done, seeing that the use of the room was to be granted free. The most important part of his Amendment, however, was the proposal to allow meetings to be held in the school in connection with political, municipal, or local elections—to enable them to be held as of right in any school not provided by the local education authority. As the law at present stood, under the Local Government Act, 1894, it was provided that if there were no other place in the village, the school-room should be used free of charge, at all reasonable times, and after reasonable notice, for meetings for the promotion of the candidature of any person 1199 for membership of the District or Parish Council. He now proposed to extend that provision to meetings in connection with Parliamentary and municipal elections. In most cases, no doubt, managers of schools would be willing to give every reasonable facility for the holding of meetings, but there were a certain number of cases, especially in county divisions, where the managers, no doubt out of rather stupid political motives, used their right to refuse the use of the school to political opponents. He thought everyone would agree that it was in the interests of the proper discussion of national as well as local politics that at all reasonable times the school should be thrown open to all parties to hold their meetings. His Amendment was confined to granting the use of the school while elections were proceeding, and, therefore, it was calculated to cause the minimum of hardship to the managers. Some, no doubt, might be occasionally inconvenienced by having to surrender the school on an evening on which it had been set apart for some festivity or other event. But if the concession were confined to periods when elections were actually in progress he was sure the hardship would not be at all considerable. There was further down on the Paper an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for South Down which proposed that the school should be open at all times for political meetings. As far as he was concerned, he was quite ready to extend his proposal in that way, and he thought it might be done if the local authority or some superior body were given a supervising power to make regulations, so that no unreasonable demand should be made which would seriously injure the use of the school for educational purposes. But, as it stood, his Amendment only referred to times when a local or national election was taking place, and, in that form, he did not think it would cast any undue burden upon the managers to give this general right to the public.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, after the words last inserted, to insert the words, '(f) The managers of the school shall allow any room in the school to be used, at any time when the school is not being used for public education, for any meeting held in connection with a political, municipal, or local election; and if, by reason of such use of the room, any expenditure is incurred by the
1200
managers, or any damage is done to the room, or to any furniture or apparatus in the room, such expense or damage shall be reimbursed to the managers by the persons by whom, or on whose behalf, the meeting is convened.'"—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the words "free of charge" had played a most important part in connection with the history of that subject. That history was a most interesting one. He gathered that there was to be some opposition to the Amendment from the other side of the House, but he would like to point out that only a few years ago hon. Gentlemen opposite freely accepted a Government Bill to carry out this very object which was embodied in a Resolution unanimously passed by the House of Commons. Certainly the words "free of charge" were not included in that Resolution, but when the Conservative Government of 1892 brought in their Bill they inserted the words. There had been some suggestion that this subject was outside the scope of Public Elementary Education Acts, but he would like to remind the Committee that the Bill to which he had referred was called the Public Elementary Schools Bill of 1892. Clause 3 of that Bill proposed to do exactly what his hon. friend's Amendment suggested. A good many stipulations were put in, and if any importance were attached to them by hon. Members opposite he thought he might say on behalf of his hon. friend that he would be prepared to accept any which would; safeguard the rights of the managers, if I the Amendment were agreed to. Personally, he thought it would be better to give the educational authority power to make regulations upon this subject. They would thus be able to avoid lengthened debates in the House upon the stipulations, and it certainly seemed to him by far the most satisfactory way of dealing with the subject. The present state of the law in regard to this matter could not be justified at all. If the use of the schools "free of charge" was allowed to one party it certainly should not be refused to another party. As a matter of fact, at present the school-room could be used "free of charge" for all meetings connected with the subject of allotments. 1201 It was also open gratuitously for Parish and District Council elections, but there was no right to use it for municipal or Parliamentary elections. How could they possibly justify such a distinction? If stipulations were required they could put in one making use of the word "reasonable," and that would give an appeal to the Board of Education if anything improper were proposed. There were very considerable debates on this subject at the time of the passing of the Local Government Act, and his right hon. friend the Member for East Wolverhampton would remember that at that time there was some disposition on the part of the Church party in that House, represented by the noble Lord who was now the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, to oppose the words "free of charge." But their arguments were destroyed by the precedent set in the Allotments Act of 1890, and the case for this Amendment was even stronger today than it had ever been before, because more assistance was being given out of the rates to voluntary schools than was afforded at the time at which the debates he referred to occurred. Surely it was monstrous that in, say, a mining community, where rooms were not very easily obtainable, men who were standing for election as members of Parish or District Councils should be able to obtain the use of the school-room "free of charge," while if they sought to obtain election to Borough or County Councils, or to Parliament, it was to be refused to them.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not approach this question from the point of view of abstractor theoretical right. Parliament had thought fit, as to voluntary schools as well as to board schools, to say that they should be used free of charge for certain purposes. It was too late in the day to say—if ever it was proper to say it—that that was absolutely inadmissible. The question was really one of procedure and degree. As regarded procedure, he thought it would be pre posterous to make this regulation with regard to voluntary schools, unless it were also made with regard to board schools. This, however, was not the place to make such a regulation with regard to board schools, as the Clause only dealt with non-provided schools. Anything which the House did ought to be done on a general system.
§ SIR HENRY FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)The Act of 1893–94 applied to board schools.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURadmitted that, but said that if they were going to extend it it must be done in a provision which itself applied to board schools.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEThe Government Bill of 1892 did not.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he had not the terms of the Bill with him, but he thought the general principle he had laid down should commend itself to common, sense. As to the question of substance, he pointed out that there had been a change of circumstances since the adoption by Parliament of the policy which it was now asked should be extended. About ten years ago the voluntary schools were made available for certain purposes, but he did not suppose those purposes required much time or took away from the uses to which the managers desired to put the schools, except for an infinitesimal fraction of the year. But if this extension were accorded, was it not manifest that the use of the schools would be largely impinged upon by the demands made upon managers of provided schools in connection with circumstances and events which might constantly repeat themselves? He left it to lawyers to determine how long before an election meetings were connected with an election. It was evident, however, that the scope of the Amendment was very large as regarded time. These extended demands, moreover, would be thrown on managers when the demands upon them for education purposes were augmented. An Amendment had been passed making it obligatory on the managers to give three nights of the week to education, outside the ordinary school hours. He thought, therefore, that to require that, on the demand of the education authority, they should give up their schools to every kind of political purpose would be taking too large a slice of the time at their disposal for their own purposes or for parochial purposes unconnected either with education or politics. In addition, such an arrangement might lead to considerable hardship. Supposing a General Election turned on this Bill, it seemed a little hard that meetings should be held in these schools for the purpose of destroying 1203 them. Taking a general survey of these objections, he thought it better not to introduce the Amendment into the Bill.
§ SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid he quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that they could not make this power applicable to one class of schools only. But he submitted that the words used in the Act of 1893–94, which provided for the use of the school-rooms receiving a grant out of moneys voted by Parliament was intended to impose the liability upon all schools alike. The right hon. Gentleman had put forward objections, one of time and one of substance. As to the first, when the Corrupt Practices; Act was passed the extraordinary words "before, during, or after" were introduced, and some hon. Members asked "Will that cover both time and eternity?" Practically he believed it was accepted that the Act referred to came into force as soon as the writ was issued for the election of a Member of Parliament, and he did not think that any gentleman who this year or next incurred expenses in holding public meetings on behalf of his candidature for the next General Election would be required to include those expenses in his election, return. It could not be suggested, therefore, that that particular objection put forward by the right hon. Gentleman was a very strong one. Then there was the objection of substance, the suggestion that, too much time would be taken out of the period left to managers when the school could be used for parochial and other purposes. Already three nights of the week were set apart for education, outside the ordinary school hours, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the present Amendment would take too great a slice out of the remaining period. But was he prepared to say that no political meetings in connection with Parliamentary elections should be held in the school at all? They had heard a good deal said about the exercise of common sense by managers, but in the past the common sense exhibited had been to allow the use of the schools for these meetings to one political party and to refuse it to the other. In passing he might remark that in the Amendment there was a misprint and that the word "Parliamentary" should be substituted 1204 for "political." Was it proper, was it just, or was it right that on Monday evening there should be a political meeting held in support of Mr. A., who was to have the advantage of the room for the shelter of his auditors, while on the following evening, if Mr. B. desired to address his supporters, he was to be compelled to do so in the open, however inclement the weather might be. With regard to the suggestion that the adoption of the Amendment might cause interference with the educational work of the school he would suggest that that could be met by the insertion of some stipulations, but at any rate it must be made clear that if the use of the room was allowed to one side the other side should have an equal right to it.
§ (2.58.) MR. LLOYD-GEORGEregretted that the Prime Minister had taken a rather illiberal view of the Amendment. On the question of procedure, his objection could easily be met by providing that the rule applicable to voluntary schools should be equally applicable to board schools, for he quite agreed that if the managers of voluntary schools were to be compelled by the Bill to throw open their school rooms for political meetings, board school rooms should be equally granted for the purpose; the same indulgence must be extended all round. It was perfectly true that his hon. friend might bring in his Amendment in the form of a new Clause at the end of the Bill; but they did not know what was going to happen, and they were bound to take the discussion when and where they could. It must be remembered that the situation had changed since 1893, that the demands for the use of the voluntary schools were greater than then, though it should also be remembered that the public subsidies to these schools were at present greater. He knew that an Amendment had been adopted the previous evening which gave the county authority the use of the schools for three nights a week for evening schools. His hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell had, however, shown that that was no great boon, for in less than 2,000 out of the 14,000 voluntary schools in the country were evening schools carried on. In fact in 12,000 schools no meeting was held in any one night of the week except, perhaps, on Sunday, His other point was that the use of the school was only to 1205 be given in connection with a candidature. He agreed with the Prime Minister that the moment a man became a candidate, although no election was imminent, the Corrupt Practices Act came into operation. But the Prime Minister talked as if political meetings were held by both sides twice a week. Why, a circus came round to these rural districts much oftener, and the result was that the agricultural labourers ran to these political meetings. He asked hon. Gentlemen opposite how often they went down to address their constituents. A Member of Parliament who went down once a week [laughter]—he meant once a year—regarded himself as a martyr. The Prime Minister talked as if these political meetings were to be held once a week, and that hon. Members became quite exhausted at the end of the vacation and took their holidays in the House of Commons. These political meetings were very rarely held, and he put it that there was really an educational purpose in them after all. [Laughter.] He did not mean merely Liberal meetings—that went without saying. But the conflict of meetings of men on both sides elucidating political questions—he would not object even to his friends of the Liberal League addressing the meetings so long as they discussed anything connected with the Government of the country)—would serve as a good sound political purpose. From that point of view, therefore, the Prime Minister ought to encourage such meetings. The right hon. Gentleman had said that it would be carrying the thing too far if they were to lend Church schools, built by Church money, for the purpose of advocating the destruction of those schools. But if it was Church money that had built the schools, it would now be Nonconformist furniture that was in the schools. In his own constituency four-fifths of the ratepayers were Nonconformists, and in the event of a row it would be their furniture that would suffer, and not the schools. The Prime Minister said it was going too far to say that a voluntary school should ring with the doctrines of Nonconformists, but it was much worse that the Nonconformist desk should be pounded by an Anglican orator in denunciation of Nonconformist heretics. Of course it was only fair that a rent should be paid for the use of the schools. The proposition of the Amendment was not so alarming, and he trusted 1206 that the Prime Minister would reconsider his decision and permit meetings to be held in the schools subject to regulations approved of by the Secretary to the Education Department, who would see that everything that was fair to the Church would be done.
§ * SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)said he hoped his right hon. friend the Member for Wolverhampton would pardon him for saying that it was not fair to the managers of the voluntary schools to allege they refused the use of their schools to one political party and gave it to another. His connection with voluntary schools extended over a considerable part of Yorkshire and Lancashire, and he maintained that any manager, or group of managers, would be denounced by the whole community if they did so. He believed that the cases where the use of the schools had been refused wore exceedingly rare, if they existed at all. His next point was that after the grant of the use of the schools for evening schools for three days in the week, scant time would be afforded to the managers for using the schools for the purpose to which they had been dedicated. Even in his own parish, without this restriction, there was difficulty in obtaining the use of the schools for any additional purpose; and if further restrictions were imposed the working of the trust-deeds under which these schools were conducted would be seriously hampered and prejudiced. In the Act of 1893–94 it was laid down that there was not to be any interference with the school hours of the voluntary schools, or of any evening school, but he found no reference to that in the Amendment of his right hon. friend.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that hon. Members on both sides were prepared to accept an Amendment to the Amendment in the sense of the Act of 1893–94.
§ * SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that in the Act of 1893–94 there were some provisions which would tend to mitigate the severity of the application of the rule in the proposed Amendment. Speaking for himself, on behalf of the voluntary schools he could not accept the Amendment as it stood.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)was rather astonished at the statement of the hon. Baronet that the voluntary schools were so much in use in the evenings. Even after granting them for the purposes of evening schools three days a week, that only amounted to 150 days in the year. A Parliamentary election came, on the average, only once in five years, and that meant two meetings. Municipal elections were held once in three years, and that meant one meeting, or at most two. He thought that under these circumstances the contention of the hon. Gentleman opposite must fall to the ground.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)said that when a proposition of this sort had been brought before the House he had always supported it. He thought that the use of the school should not be given to one party and refused to the other. But regard must be had to the fact that so many nights in the week were now to be given for the evening schools; and the rights of the voluntary school managers in the remaining nights ought to be safe-guarded. He thought that the words "in connection with" were much too vague, and that the right to use the schools should be confined to cases where no other room was obtainable.
§ SIR EDWARD GREY (Northumberland, Berwick)submitted that there was a general agreement that something should be done in the direction proposed by the Amendment, if not at this point in another part of the Bill. He entirely agreed with the Prime Minister as to the undesirability of running the risk of using the school buildings for other than educational purposes, and he, for one, would insist that regulations to that effect should be framed. But that duty should be left to the local education authority, as it would be somewhat invidious to place it on the managers. In the interests of compromise he thought the right hon. Gentleman should consent to grant that advantage to political candidates. He thought no real harm would be done by that. Would it not be hard lines on the local authority if their views could not 1208 be advocated in the schools for which they paid? In the villages, at all events, these political meetings were really educational. They occurred rarely, and the people were really interested in them, as they afforded the only chance to the villagers of hearing political arguments. He thought they should not look upon the school buildings as still retaining their private character. Whatever that might be under the trust deeds, they must now come into existence for public purposes, and where the schools were the only premises available, it was only right and fair that they should be available for public purposes. He himself admitted that he had never had any difficulty in holding meetings in his constituency; but an incident did occur at one of his elections which made him think that he owed the free use of the voluntary schools in his constituency to his political opponent. On that occasion the use of a schoolroom u as refused to him., but the school was afterwards made available for him through the representations of his political opponent; and the spirit which his opponent had then infused had governed the matter ever since. He made an appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury whether there was not an almost general agreement which would justify him in accepting the Amendment.
§ * MR. JAMES HOPE (Sheffield, Brightside)said he desired to oppose the Amendment very strongly. It would very much interfere with the work of the schools at the very period of the year when time was most needed. Municipal elections were generally held in the autumn, and if the schools were to be used for election purposes, the whole winter session of classes organised by the managers might be interfered with. He opposed the Amendment also on a broader ground. He saw in it the thin end of the wedge. Hon. Members opposite were trying to make elections cheaper at other people's expense. They advocated that returning officers' fees should he paid by the public; and he regarded the Amendment as an attempt to enable candidates to hold their meetings at the expense of other people. 1209 That was a very dangerous tendency. If gentlemen sought a seat in this House, they ought to be willing to bear the expense attaching to it.
§ MR. NUSSEY (Pontefract)said he regretted that the First Lord of the Treasury could not see his way to comply with what was a general request on both sides of the House. He thought that he would not overstate the case when he said, there were 8,000 parishes in the country where hon. Members could hold meetings only on sufferance. They had to go, cap in hand, to ask the managers whether they would be good enough to allow them to express their political views in the schools, although the schools were paid for by the ratepayers' money. The first objection of the Prime Minister was that the proposal did not extend to board schools. He would have been very glad if the proposal were extended to board as well as to voluntary schools, so that these schools would have been open for legitimate discussion to responsible persons such as candidates at the County Council, municipal or Parliamentary elections. The second objection of the Prime Minister was that the meetings would take up too much time, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that in the country meetings did not take much time. He lived in a constituency which was represented by an hon. Member opposite who, with the exception of a meeting he addressed last summer, had not held a meeting in the constituency for four or five years. It was an anomaly that the schools should not be allowed to be used for local purposes, and that a certain number of hon. Members, most of them sitting on one side of the House, should be debarred from discussing matters involving great national interests. The schools themselves would have a most direct interest in the County Council elections, and what could be more fitting than that the County Council candidates who, when elected, would form the local education authority, should have free use of the schools, It was quite right that a code of regulations I should be inserted to prevent the right being abused. The hon. Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield said the schools would be used at the very time they would be most wanted for educational purposes. He did not think that would be so, as ordinary elections in the country took place in March. If 1210 the Amendment were accepted, it would make matters fair all round. If not, the use of the schools should be prohibited to both parties. That would remove part of the grievance of which they complained.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was quite prepared to admit that in the speech he made half an hour ago, he might have laid too much stress on the actual number of hours that would be employed in election meetings. He might have exaggerated that aspect of the case, though he was sure he did not exaggerate the fear which an Amendment of that kind would excite in the bosoms of the managers of voluntary schools, who had just had three evenings a week cut off the time in which they could use the schools. He did not rise to express his views in a modified form, but to appeal to the Committee as to whether it would be wise to introduce, in a Bill of this kind, a topic which, as the right hon. Gentleman himself observed, had formed a great part of a Bill introduced ad hoc 1892. He had looked at the Bill and could assure the Committee that the Clause which dealt with the question was the principal Clause in the Bill, and extended over more than a page of the inconvenient size on which they printed their Bills. He did not think they could really include a topic like that in a Bill which, whether it was a good or a bad Bill, did not deal with the question at all, except merely parenthetically. Even if they embarked upon it, they could not take the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman as their point of departure. If for no other reason, he objected to the Amendment on the ground—and he thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverhampton agreed with him—that it was confined to the voluntary schools; and in the place in which it appeared, it must necessarily be confined to the voluntary schools. Any treatment of the subject should be general; and all the I safeguards to be introduced should be considered by this House in a manner in which they could not be considered on that occasion. He imagined it would be in order to introduce a new Clause, practically repeating the Clause in his right hon. friend's Bill of 1892; and if the House had ample time to consider it, they might knock it into some shape; 1211 which would not make it unjust to the voluntary schools. But in the present condition of the discussion of the Bill, it would be folly to make a promise that he would ask the Committee to find time for discussing a parenthesis, which was altogether outside the real topic dealt with in the Bill. He was not saying that a provision of the kind proposed, made universal, could not he so safeguarded as to make it a reasonable and proper addition to the Statute-hook: hut he ventured to suggest that it should be introduced as a separate Bill, and at a time when the House would have an opportunity of discussing it.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid he thought he was right in saying that the right hon. Gentleman had practically admitted that the queston was one which ought to be dealt with. The right hon. Gentleman's contention was that it should be dealt with in a separate Bill. Twenty-two years ago that might have been a reasonable argument; but, nowadays, when a private Member's Bill which was opposed had really no chance of passing, the right hon. Gentleman might just as well have given a blank refusal as to tell them to bring in a private Member's Bill on the subject. Why did not the right hon. Gentleman himself bring in a Bill?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not exclude the possibility of the Government dealing with the subject; and he carefully abstained from giving or withholding any pledge. What he said was that it was quite clear that it could not wisely or possibly be introduced at that stage into the present Bill.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid he thought he was right in saying that the House passed a unanimous Resolution in favour of the proposal in the Amendment.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Government of which he was a member went out of office in 1892.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid that that side of the House was in office for less than three years, whereas the Government were in office for more than eight years; and if there was any desire on the part of the Government to redeem their promise, they had more than twice the opportunity the Opposition had had. The right hon. 1212 Gentleman must feel that he could not relegate to the dim, distant, and uncertain future a matter which could be so properly dealt with in the present Bill, and for this reason. The Bill made these schools the property of the ratepayers for educational purposes; it gave them a full right to use the schools for educational purposes. It changed the character of these schools by giving them assistance out of the rates, and made them public in a way in which they were not public previously. Surely, then, it was only right that the public should be allowed to meet in them and discuss public matters. It was not a grievance which affected municipalities so much as villages, because in the towns the Board school-rooms were invariably larger, but it was a very great grievance in the villages of this country, for the reason that the village school very often was the only place in which a meeting could be held. He could not, help, even at this late stage, making one last appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to agree now to a modified form of this Amendment and settle the question.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lich field)said the importance of the question had been shown by the arguments used against it. Years after the passing of the original Act, the House of Commons had to pass a special Act to rectify an omission in that Act, and that was a reason surely for not perpetuating the omission in this Act. The grievance, though not perhaps so apparent, was very real. Most hon. Members had felt the difficulty at election times of getting the use of a school-room for election purposes on a particular evening. He had experienced the difficulty both of giving and obtaining the use of a schoolroom for political meetings. In most cases, it was true, the managers let the schools to both sides, but not often for the same sum, and it was, he submitted, not fair, for the managers ought not to be allowed to charge one side more than the other. The Committee would be willing to accept a modified Clause in the Act. Let the Government put four lines in the Act, and leave it to the Education Department to make any recommendation they liked. The Department surely could put in a condition that would prevent any injury being done to the schools.
§ (3.38.) MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
| The Committee divided:—Ayes, 187; Noes, 85. (Division List, No. 442.) |
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Galloway, William Johnson | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Gore, Hn. G.R.C. Ormsby- (Salop | Myers, William Henry |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Arrol, Sir William | Graham, Henry Robert | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry SEdm'nds | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs) | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Percy, Earl |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Groves, James Grimble | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. Christch. | Gunter, Sir Robert | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Hain, Edward | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Purvis, Robert |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bignold, Arthur | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Bond, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Higginbottom, S. W. | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J, A. (Glasgow | Hoult, Joseph | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Carlile, William Walter | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Jeeb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Johnstone, Heywood | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Kemp, George | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Spear, John Ward |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Kennedy, Patrick James | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A.(Worc. | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Kimber, Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Knowles, Lees | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Colombo, Sir John Charles Ready | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Leigh-Bennett, Heary Currie | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Valentia, Viscount |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt 'n |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Macdona, John Cumming | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manch'r | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Finch, George H. | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart- |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Majendie, James A. H. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Manners, Lord Cecil | Wylie, Alexander |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Younger, William |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | |
| Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | |
| Flower, Ernest | Morrell, George Herbert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Forster, Henry William | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Foster, PhilipS(Warwick, S.W. | Mount, William Arthur |
§ Question put, "That the Question, 'That those words be there inserted,' be now put."
1215| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Helme, Norval Watson | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud | Horniman, Frederick John | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shackleton, David James |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Joicey, Sir James | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Brigg, John | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Broadhnrst, Henry | Labouchere, Henry | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Lambert, George | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Burt, Thomas | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Spencer, Rt. Hn. CR. (Northants |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Leng, Sir John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Lewis, John Herbert | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Caldwell, James | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Cameron, Robert | Logan, John William | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Cawley, Frederick | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Tomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Mather, Sir William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wallace, Robert |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Edwards, Frank | Norton, Captain Cecil William | Weir, James Galloway |
| Emmott, Alfred | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Partington, Oswald | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Grant, Corrie | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Price, Robert John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rea, Russell | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Reckitt, Harold James |
§ (3.51.) Question put accordingly.
1216§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 91; Noes, 189. (Division List, No. 443.)
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Foster, Philips S. (Warwick, S. W. | Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute |
| Aird, Sir John | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans | Myers, William Henry |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Arrol, Sir William | Graham, Henry Robert | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Percy, Earl |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Greene, Sir EW (B'ry SEdm'nds | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Balcarries, Lord | Gretton, John | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Baldwin, Alferd | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Groves, James Grimble | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Gunter Sir Robert | Purvis, Robert |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hain, Edward | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Bignold, Arthur | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) |
| Bund, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Higginbottom, S. W. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hope, J.F.(Sheffield Brightside | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Seely, Maj. E.J.B (Isle of Wight) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Hoult, Joseph | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Carlile, William Walter | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Smith, HC (North 'mb.Tyneside |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Johnstone, Heywood | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Kennedy, Patrick James | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Colombo, Sir John Charles Ready | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Kimber, Henry | Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Knowles, Lees | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Law, Andrew Bonar, (Glasgow | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Valentia, Viscount |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Col. Charles. W. (Evesham) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Welby, Rt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Whitemore, Charles Algernon |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Macdona, John Cumming | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R) |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Finch, George H. | Majendie, James A. H. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Manners, Lord Cecil | Wylie, Alexander |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire | |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Morrell, George Herbert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Sir Alexander AclandHood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Flower, Ernest | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Forster, Henry William | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
§ MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)agreed that the first part of his Amendment on page 14 was out of order, but ho submitted 1219 that he might be in order in moving the insertion of the words—
At any meeting the presence of at least three shall be required to form a quorum.
* THE CHAIRMANThe question as to the number of the managers has already been dealt with in Clause 7. The next Amendment which is in order is that of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee.
§ MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)I do not move now, because I
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Aird, Sir John | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nryEden | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Johnstone, Heywood |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Faber, George Denison (York) | Kemp, George |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fardell, Sir T. George | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Arrol, Sir William | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Finch, George H. | Kimber, Henry |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Knowles, Lees |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fisher, William Hayes | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Baldwin, Alfred | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Flower, Ernest | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Forster, Henry William | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Be0njamin | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Galloway, William, Johnson | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison |
| Bond, Edward | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Goulding, Edward Alfred | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Graham, Henry Robert | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Greene, Sir EW (B'rySEdm'nds | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Carew, James Laurence | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n |
| Carlile, William Walter | Grenfell, William Henry | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Gretton, John | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Groves, James Grimble | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Mount, William Arthur |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Gunter, Sir Robert | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hain, Edward | Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A (Worc. | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (MIdd'x | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Myers, William Henry |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Heaton, John Henniker | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Helder, Augustus | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n |
| Cubit, Hon. Henry | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Higginbottom, S. W. | Percy, Earl |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Denny, Colonel | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Hoult, Joseph | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Houston, Robert Paterson | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Purvis, Robert |
§ understood the question is to be dealt with in another part of the Bill.
§ (4.3.) MR. A. J. BALFOURclaimed to move, "That the Question' That the word "If," in line 25, stand part of the Clause' be now put:"—
§ Question put, "That the Question 'That the word "If," in line 25, stand part of the Clause' be now put."
§ The Committee divided; Ayes 211, Noes 86. (Division List No. 444.)
| Rankin, Sir James | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C.E. (Taunt'n |
| Ratcliff, R. F. | Spear, John Ward | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Richards, Henry Charles | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N | Wylie, Alexander |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Tollemache, Henry James | Younger, William |
| Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | |
| Seton-Karr, Henry | Tritton, Charles Ernest | |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Valentia, Viscount | Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead | Helme, Norval Watson | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Allen, Charles P.(Glouc.,Stro'd | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Horniman, Frederick John | Runciman, Walter |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Sehwann, Charles E |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derby shire) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shackleton, David James |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Joicey, Sir James | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Brigg, John | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Lambert, George | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Burt, Thomas | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R, (Northants |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Leng, Sir John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Caldwell, James | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Cameron, Robert | Logan, John William | Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower |
| Cawley, Frederick | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Cremer, William Randal | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wallace, Robert |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Mather, Sir William | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | White Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Edwards, Frank | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Emmott, Alfred | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Partington, Oswald | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Grant, Corrie | Price, Robert John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES․ |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick | Rea, Russell | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Reckitt, Harold James |
§ (4.14.) Question put accordingly.
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Carlile, William Walter |
| Aird, Sir John | Bartley, George C. T. | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Beckett, Ernest William | Cayzer, Sir Charles William |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Bentinck Lord Henry C. | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bignold, Arthur | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Clive, Captain Percy A. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bond, Edward | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Boulnois, Edmund | Coddington, Sir William |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Cripps, Charles Alfred |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Brotherton, Edward Allen | Crossley, Sir Savile |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Cubitt, Hon. Henry |
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 218; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 445.)
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hogg, Lindsay | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Denny, Colonel | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Hoult, Joseph | Purvis, Robert |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rankin, Sir James |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Rash, Major Frederic Carne |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Johnstone, Heywood | Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Kemp, George | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Rollerston, Sir John F. L. |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Kimber, Henry | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Knowles, Lees | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Seely, Maj. E. J. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Finch, George H. | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants.,Fareh'm | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Smith, H. C (North 'mb.Tyneside |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Spear, John Ward |
| Flower, Ernest | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Stanley, Hon Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Forster, Henry William | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, SW. | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary, (St. Albans) | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Macdona, John Cumming | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Gore, Hn. G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf 'd Univ. |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n N. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Graham, Henry Robert | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Majendie, James A. H. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Greene, Sir EW (B 'ryS'Edm'nds | Manners, Lord Cecil | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Grenfell, William Henry | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Gretton, John | Morrell, George Herbert | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Groves, James Grimble | Mount, William Arthur | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Gunter, Sir Robert | Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute | Williams, Rt. Hn. J Powell-(Birm |
| Hain, Edward | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Myres, William Henry | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Nicholson, William Henry | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Palmer, Sir Gilbert | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Parker, Walter (Salisbury) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Helder, Augustus | Pemberton, John S. G. | Younger, William |
| Henderson, Sir Alexander | Percy, Earl | |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Pierpoint, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Plummer, Walter R. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Sir William (Gateshead | Cameron, Robert | Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John |
| Allen, Chas P. (Glouc., Stroud. | Causton, Richard Knight | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cawley, Frederick | Grant, Corrie |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Channing, Francis Allston | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derby shire) | Cremer, William Randal | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Brigg, John | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Duncan, J. Hastings | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Burt, Thomas | Edwards, Frank | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Emmott, Alfred | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Caine, William Sproston | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Joicey, Sir James |
| Caldwell, James | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Kitson, Sir James | Partington, Oswald | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Lambert, George | Paulton, James Mellor | Thomas, JA (Glamorg'n, Gower |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Philipps, John Wynford | Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.) |
| Leng, Sir John | Price, Robert John | Thomkinson, James |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Russell | Wallace, Robert |
| Lloyd-George, David | Reckitt, Harold James | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Logan, John William | Rickett, J. Compton | Weir, James Galloway |
| Lough, Thomas | Roberts, John H. (Denbigh.) | White Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Schwann, Charles E | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Shackleton, David James | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Mather, Sir William | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Shipman, Dr. John G. | |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | |
| Moulton, John Fletcher | Soares, Ernest J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Newnes, Sir George | Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants | Mr. Trevelyan and Mr. Runciman |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Stevenson, Francis S. | |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Strachey, Sir Edward |
§ (4.26.) MR. BRYCE moved to insert in Clause 8, line 25, after "If" the words "The managers of any school fail to comply with the above conditions no assistance from the rates or the Parliamentary grant shall be given to such school," and to omit all the words after "If" down to the end of line 29. His view was that in the matters dealt with in the sub-Sections of the Clause it was better that the local education authority should be the judge and that there should be no appeal at all to the Board of Education. That was also the view of his right non, friend the Member for West Monmouthshire who gave notice of the Amendment. His right hon. friend thought, and he agreed with him, that there ought to be a distinct and unequivocal assertion that as soon as a school failed to fulfil the provisions of any sub-Section no claim should be made for rate aid. Now there was a certain amount of justification for his proposal. It was to be found in the fact that within the last few days, during the consideration of this Clause, they had been piling up difficulties and ambiguities, and possibly questions on which divergence of opinion must arise, all of which were to be referred to the Board of Education. Those appeals would do a great deal to make the working of the whole Bill, if it became an Act, extremely difficult and extremely vexatious to the local education authorities; and unsatisfactory to the local managers. He did not think that there had ever been brought forward a scheme more complicated and more fertile in occasions for friction. It was an unsuccessful attempt to recondite principles which were fundamentally opposed. Take, for instance, the case of religious instruction, in regard to which 1226 it was very likely that appeals would be sent to Whitehall if this sub-Section were passed. The theory of the sub-Section was that the local managers were to be entirely responsible, and to have complete control over religious instruction, and that the local education authorities had no right to intervene in any way. But it had been at the same time urged, with great force, and, he confessed, with some appearance of truth, that if there was to be in the schools a religious atmosphere, it should pervade the whole school, that it should not be confined to religious instruction, but carried on and make itself felt in the secular education. Then they would have difficulty as to what were religious and what were secular hours. They had endeavoured to deal with one of those questions by proposing that the local education authorities should have power to enforce the Conscience Clause, and an extraordinary divergence of opinion had been elicited as to what the Clause meant, even in the mind of the Attorney General. It was admitted that there was a power of appeal, but how far could that appeal go or be reported to Whitehall? All that was left in the dark, and that was a darkness which was certain to produce friction. Take the case of the use of the buildings. The scheme of the Board was that the buildings of the voluntary schools were to remain the property of the managers, but at the same time the use of the buildings was to be in the hands of the local education authority during the hours of secular instruction. It could be easily seen that disputes would arise in regard to furniture, repairs, and the use of the school at other times, in regard to 1227 the claim made upon them by the local authority for the purposes of what was called secondary education. What struck him was the number of difficulties that would arise from the extreme complications of this scheme. How much simpler it would have been to transfer the property in the schools to the local education authority and make them masters. If that was objected to on pecuniary grounds, let the pecuniary difficulty be met and dealt with. He would take another point. It had been generally felt by educational reformers that one of the most important things for efficiency of local schools was that a good deal of power should be vested in the local managers, and if the Government had been free they would have listened to the voice of educational experts, and would have given to the local managers wide powers to carry on their schools in a manner which their local experience of local feeling told them would be best. Although it was true that the school managers in a borough were only the servants or agents of the School Board, yet they were constantly under the eye of the School Board; the School Board might delegate powers to them in a way not possible in the case of the managers of country schools. The Government had been unable to confer those wide powers on the rural managers because they were obliged to set up some sort of popular control. As they could not give it to the people on the spot, they gave a semblance of it to the local education authority sitting in the county seat. What was the result? The local managers were not to have the power they ought to have, and the local education authority was so far removed that it could not exercise control effectively over the managers in the rural districts. That being so, he thought that the next best thing they could do was to facilitate the working of the schools by vesting a wide and complete power in the local education authority, and to do that it would be necessary to get rid of the appeal to the Board of Education which was given by this sub-Section. He therefore proposed to leave out the words "appeal to the Board of Education." His Amendment was that the local education authority should be the final 1228 judge in these matters. He was quite sure that that was a plan which would be found to work easiest and simplest, and with most efficiency. They had had expressed from both sides of the House great confidence in the judgment and good sense of the local education authority. He was assured that they would have no motive in endeavouring to interfere with religious instruction, or the legitimate use of the school buildings by the local managers. He thought that this was one of those cases where they might, with great confidence, leave it to the local education authority, in the belief that they would not abuse their power, but use it in the public interest, and not to the disadvantage of the managers. Therefore it would be better not to check them in their work. It would be quite unworthy to subject these great local authorities to constant appeals to Whitehall. The First Lord had expressed a sanguine hope that the conferring of educational functions on these local authorities would induce a great number of able and publicspirited citizens to devote themselves to educational work; but what encouragement would be given them to undertake those functions if they were subjected at every point to an appeal to the Board of Education in Whitehall. He contended that not only on the ground of local interest, but of respect to the local education authority, these ought not to be subjected to such appeals. He feared that if this Section was passed in its present form it would be found impossible to work the scheme, and even if it did work, it could not last; and in the course of two or three years Parliament would have to tinker the Act by passing another Bill. They should endeavour to avoid that danger, and to avoid anything which would make the local education authorities resent the position of inferiority in which they would be placed by this Clause. They should trust them fully.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 25, to leave out the words from the word ' If,' to the end of line 29, and insert the words 'the managers of any school fail to comply with the above conditions no assistance from the rates or the Parliamentary grant shall be given to such school.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words 'any question,' stand part of the Clause."
1229§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)said that the right hon. Gentleman had raised a question which, no doubt, was of very great importance, in a speech of perfect clearness, and in a manner to winch no one, who was interested in education, could take the slightest exception, He desired very shortly to submit to the Committee his reasons for thinking that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman was a mistake, and that they should reject it. His right hon. friend had spoken of the necessity of trusting the local education authority. He had said before, and he repeated it, that the Government had every confidence that the local education authorities would be reasonable, and that the spirit in which they would administer this Bill would be everything that could be desired. But that did not settle the matter. The question was, what was to be the machinery for solving questions that might arise in dispute between the managers and the local education authorities? He believed that both the managers and the local education authorities would do their best fairly and honestly to carry out the provisions of the Act; but it was possible that they might differ in some points, and in case of dispute who was to decide between them? The managers might take one view and the education authority another, and then who was to decide? As he understood it, the effect of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman was that in a dispute between the managers and the local education authority the local authority should settle the controversy. With every confidence in the local authority and other representative bodies, he could not think it would be either wise or practicable to trust them with the decision of disputes in which, conceivably, feeling might run high and to which they had been parties. The right hon. Gentleman desired to leave all the decisions to the local education authority. To carry out that wish the introduction of other words into the Section would be necessary, because if the Amendment were carried in the form in which it was put down by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, or in the amended form of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen, these disputes would have to go to courts of law for decision, because they had Sections which provided that in various events the rights of managers should be 1230 forfeited. If a dispute arose as to whether those events had happened, according to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, a court of law would have to determine the point. He thought the Committee would be of opinion that it would be extremely undesirable that such a question as, for instance, the limit of religious or secular teaching, or abstruse questions of that kind, should be ventilated in the High Courts. They were questions of some delicacy; questions absolutely unsuitable, in his opinion, for decision by the best of County Councils, and he ventured to think that even the High Court was not the best tribunal to deal with these matters. But the Bill provided an effective and an easy way of determining any questions that might arise, which would be an appeal to the Board of Education. Looking at the section as amended by the Committee, the Committee would see that the nature of the questions that might arise made it necessary to provide some means of deciding them at once. As the whole question of the appeal to the Board of Education was raised by the Amendment, he would show the Committee how the right of appeal would work in the case of each of the sub-Clauses. The Committee would see exactly what questions would arise in the various sub-Clauses (a) (b) (c) (d) and (e). He reminded the Committee that the early part of the Clause stated the conditions on the performance of which the right of maintenance by the school out of the rates depended, and also made the performance of those conditions necessary in order to earn the Parliamentary grant. Who were to determine whether or not those conditions had been broken? The first condition was that any direction of the education authority as to secular instruction in the schools, including the number of teachers to be employed, and with reference to the dismissal of teachers on educational grounds, was to be carried out. That gave the educational authority the power to issue its directions to managers with regard to any matter of secular instruction, including the matters which it had been thought proper to specify so fully under that head. Directions given by the local education authority on those matters could not be questioned as being improper or unreasonable directions, because the local education authority 1231 had been made the judge in that matter, and in that case there could be no appeal at all. Someone must be trusted with some directions, and the Government trusted the local authority. But the difficulty might arise under this Section as to whether a matter referred to was a matter of secular instruction or whether it trenched on religious instruction. Did the Committee think that they should adopt an Amendment which would leave a matter of that kind to be settled by the courts of law? A speedy decision was necessary in order that the schools might go on without friction, and from the nature of the case itself, it was not one suitable for a court of law to decide On the other hand, did they think they could possibly adopt the proposal advocated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen which left the matter to be decided by the authorities who had first given the directions to the managers? He submitted that both alternatives were impossible, and the only remedy was to leave the Board of Education to deal with matters of this kind. These matters were in their very nature matters which had to be decided at once, and, by a process of exhaustion the Government were driven to a tribunal which was eminently competent and absolutely impartial. The only question under sub-Clause (a) was whether the directions had been carried out. He need hardly say anything as to Clause (b) because the only question that could arise upon it was whether the managers had been instructed by the local authority.
§ MR. BRYCEpointed out that "inspection" came into that sub-Clause, and that great difficulty might arise.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the Board of Education dealt with such questions as that every day. Sub-Clause (c) was an important sub-Clause dealing with the appointment and dismissal of teachers, and the questions which might arise there were two: the first relating to the appointment, the second relating to the dismissal, of teachers. The consent of the local education authority was required for the appointment of the teachers, and they were not to be dismissed except on educational grounds. It might be said 1232 the consent was withheld not on educational grounds; that the circumstances were such as to show that the local education authority had refused their consent not on those grounds but on some others relating to the religious tenets or the political views of the candidate. He did not expect such a case to arise; the spectres which had been conjured up with regard to this Act were spectres conjured up under the stimulus of political oratory. He believed the Bill would work very smoothly; but if such a question did arise there must be some remedy. The Committee had passed the Clause that the local education authority should not refuse its consent except on educational grounds. Who was to decide whether it had or not? The right hon. Gentleman said the local education authority itself! But they could not go into it because their probity had been impeached. With regard to the dismissal of the teachers, the managers might allege that they were entitled to dismiss a teacher because he was giving religious education on lines against the religious doctrines of the school. The education authority might say their consent ought to be obtained; that the teacher was dismissed, not on religious grounds, but because of some personal jealousy. Who was to decide that? Somebody must, and it was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that it should be decided by the body that made the charge. As to sub-Clause (c) a question might arise as to whether the school building was really required for educational purposes for the evenings of three days a week, and whether the local authority had not sufficient accommodation in their own schools. The managers might allege that the local authority were sparing the use of their own schools and making use of the non-provided schools. That would have to be settled by the Board of Education. The difficulty of the rent of the teacher's house could be solved by the rate book of the neighbourhood, but if a dispute arose some one must settle it. Repairs might give rise to questions. An obligation was imposed on the managers to keep the premises in repair. Suppose the local education authority said they were not in repair and the managers said they were? It was not a great question, but if issue was joined upon it it would have to be determined at once. That was a question 1233 which was constantly before the Board of Education, and he submitted there could be no better tribunal. "Alterations and improvements" might raise very important questions, because by the decision of the Committee the local education authority were only entitled to make "reasonable" requests for alterations and improvements. This was a point on which particularly disputes were most likely to arise. The local education committee might say they wanted certain improvements made in the building, and the managers might retort, "We think your request is unreasonable, and you are only entitled to request reasonable improvements." The right hon. Gentleman wished by his Amendment that the decision in such a matter as that should remain with the local education authority. The right hon. Gentleman would agree that they could hardly expect the managers, who had to find the money for improvements which they thought unreasonable, to be in entire agreement with him. He need not detain the Committee with regard to sub-Clause (e). The only question that could arise on that was as to the amount of damage done to the building and furniture, and whether the school-room had been put into a proper condition for scholastic work after it had been used for other purposes. He submitted that ho had shown that there might in a small number of cases be a small number of questions that might arise between the managers and the local education authority. The suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was that the decision of those questions should be left with the local education authority, whilst that of the Government was that it should be left with the Education Department, and he left it with confidence to the Committee to say which of those solutions was the better.
§ MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire, South Molton)said the fallacy that underlay the whole of the Attorney General's argument appeared to him to be that he insisted upon putting the local education authority upon an equality with the managers, and for the right hon. Gentleman to further say that the County Council would be a party to a dispute was begging the question. If a County Council could be trusted to carry out its duties there should be no difficulty whatever in allowing them to do so. 1234 They had been told that the basis of this Bill was that the Education Department was unfit or was not so fit as the local education authority, to know what the requirements in the various districts were, and he submitted with confidence, even to the Attorney General himself, that the education authority was a much fitter body to deal with these matters than the Education Department. But the hon. and learned Gentleman had told them that in matters of this kind one of the best courts in the country would be a tribunal with the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Board of Education at its head. For his part he should much prefer to leave this matter to the commonsense of the community. How was it possible for the hon. Gentleman representing the Education Department in this House to find out what was reasonable and what was not as between a County Council and voluntary school managers? The only possible way would be for the hon. Gentleman to send his inspector down to enquire into the matter, and then they would have the melancholy spectacle of a County Council being placed upon its trial before an inspector of the Education Department. That would be a most degrading position to place the authority in. Surely the local education authority constituted under this Bill must be as capable, or more so, of deciding this point than any inspector sent down. He could not conceive anything more humiliating than for the County Council to be summoned to give evidence before an inspector who had no knowledge of the subject which he had to investigate. He maintained that the Clause as it stood must be a constant source of irritation between the local authorities and the managers, and so far as appeals went, the managers could appeal to the Board of Education for the cost of the postage stamp which franked their letter. But if they had to appeal to a court of law, that would cost money, and they would, he thought, be chary of risking a lawsuit with the County Council. Giving to the Board of Education the power of deciding all these questions would not decentralise, but practically centralise, education, because the whole authority would rest with the Board of Education. One argument on which the Bill had been defended was that it would decentralise 1235 education, but under this Clause it would be directed from Whitehall as hitherto. The whole Clause was a perfect farce. It would create great friction and irritation. It showed a want of trust in the new authority, and as a member of a County Council he repudiated it most strongly and should support the Amendment.
§ *(5.18.) MR. ERNEST GRAY (West Ham, N.)thought there would be less opposition to this sub-Section if Members had a wider knowledge of what transpired under the existing law. It was a very common occurrence for the largest School Boards to apply to the Board of Education for its ruling on questions affecting the conduct of their own schools. The point had been argued as though the disputes would necessarily be of an acrimonious character. He did not anticipate that at all. What he expected was, that a County Council would take a certain view of the law and the local managers a slightly different one. The County Council might propose to establish in some voluntary school such a regulation which the managers claimed to be altogether inapplicable. Who was to decide such a point? Were they to waste the ratepayers' money in litigation, or to go to people who had spent their lives in determining these small points of detail, who knew exactly the effect of the last legal decision or the last decision of the Board of Education, and who could put the local authority straight without unnecessary delay or friction? He could hardly conceive antagonistic dealings arising when both parties knew that they would be appealing to an impartial tribunal which, without cost and with little delay, would settle the point at issue. There was one question, however, that he would like cleared up. He was not quite certain of the force of the provision that compliance with this section should be one of the conditions on which the Parliamentary grant would be paid. Would that empower the Board of Education to withhold the Parliamentary grants from the County Council? At present, in order to bring a School Board into subjection and compel it to carry out the law, the Board of Education was able to withhold from that School 1236 Board the Parliamentary grants with respect to the particular school in regard to which the difficulty had occurred. The withdrawal of the Parliamentary grants would tend to induce the County Council to carry out the decisions of the Board of Education, but it would have no influence on the school concerned, inasmuch as the latter would not in any case receive the grant. The local authority was charged with the maintenance of the school, no matter what Parliamentary grant it might receive; therefore, while no penalty was imposed on the school, a penalty might perchance be imposed on the County Council. In the event of the voluntary school managers declining to obey the decision of the Board of Education, they could be effectually reduced to subjection by the withdrawal of the entire support of that school by the County Council, and in an extreme case, the erection of another school. The point he desired to be informed upon was whether this last provision was intended to be a penalty applicable to the County or Borough Council; if so, not only was the sub-Section sound, but it was absolutely essential to the smooth working of the Bill.
§ MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)reminded the Attorney General that the County Councils were advised by capable lawyers in the persons of their chief and assistant clerks, who were, so far as the interpretation of an Act of Parliament was concerned, as efficient a body as a court of law. If the object of the Section was to prevent delay, there could be no better way of securing it than by giving: the local authority power to stop supplies unless the management carried on the necessary instruction. The local authority in the case of a county was the High Court of the county for all civil purposes, and, therefore, it ought to, and could, be safely entrusted with powers such as the Amendment sought to confer. There was no fear of the County Councils making unreasonable demands on the managers; the tendency, in his view, was more likely to be in the direction of slackness than undue stringency. Speaking as a County Councillor, he thought these bodies, if they were to be endowed with 1237 the enormous powers proposed by the Bill, were worthy of having placed in their hands the power of withholding supplies, if, through stubbornness or stupidity, the managers failed to provide proper accommodation and appliances for the education of the children. The management was only a parochial committee, and to give that committee power to defy and wrangle with the great county authority was unwise, and would not tend to produce harmony in the administration of county affairs. Under those circumstances, he thought it was only reasonable to give the authority asked for. He was sure that for years to come the Education Department would find itself so bombarded from every part of the country, rural and urban, on questions of education, that they might very well throw overboard a comparatively small matter of this kind, which was, nevertheless, essential for the immediate and continuous progress of elementary education.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTOXsaid he had listened with some surprise and considerable alarm to the speech of the Attorney General. While discussing the previous sub-Sections the Prime Minister, on more than one occasion, told the Committee that his desire was that the local education authority should be supreme.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURSupreme in its own sphere.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had done his best to limit matters in which an appeal should be allowed. They understood that the only appeal would be between secular and religious sections. The right hon. Gentleman said there would be an appeal about sub-Section (d) for alterations and improvements, and it was said that those were large matters upon which there was to be an appeal. He did not think the First Lord of the Treasury would deny that those were the only two points upon which there was a right of appeal from the local authority. The Attorney General, by his speech, had put a, totally different complexion upon it. When he got to the sub-Section dealing with damage caused to furniture, he went so far as to say that where there was any 1238 question of dispute there an appeal would lie. If that was the way the local authority was to be treated, it seemed to him that the speech of the Attorney General put the managers absolutely on an equality with the local authority in regard to every question. There was, according to the Attorney General, an absolute right of appeal from the local authority, and it was not a question of one authority being superior to the other. Was this going to be the construction put upon the Clause which they under stood was going to be very much improved? The First Lord of the Treasury admitted that the drafting was too broad. If the construction of the Attorney General were right, that the managers were to have an appeal in ever single minute detail where there was friction, the education authority would be put in a difficult position and there would be an enormous amount of delay. Surely the obvious solution was to allow the right of appeal only in matters of very material and vital importance. The Attorney General said they were raising spectres of difficulties and disputes. He had had some experience in the management of elementary schools and he should like to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman if he had had any experience of these everyday matters which arose in schools. Had he ever been a manager or been in an elementary school in England? With all due respect, he ventured to think that the Attorney General was not capable of appreciating these matters. If his inter pretation was to stand, he hoped the Prime Minister would recollect the impression left upon the Committee on this point a few days ago, and do something to allay their alarms upon it.
§ (5.40.) MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)thought it was rather hard for the hon. Member for Poplar to say that the Attorney General was not qualified to give a legal view if he had never been to an elementary school. The matter they were now dealing with was really a very serious one. It might be regarded from three points of view. Many hon. Members thought there ought not to be any right of appeal at all, but assuming that there was to be a right of appeal to whom or to what body ought that right to be given? Again, if they had decided that the right of appeal must exist, and also decided upon the 1239 tribunal, the question remained in what cases might they have recourse to that right. They had already discussed this point, and he took it that the House of Commons had decided that in certain cases there should be an appeal. Therefore anything outside those cases was a legitimate subject for discussion upon this Amendment. With regard to the question as to what court, or what body, or tribunal they were to appeal, he agreed with the Government that it would be much better to have an appeal to some body like the Education Department rather than to a court of law. It was better to have an appeal upon administrative matters to an administrative body. He agreed that it would be hopeless to have appeals to Courts of Law upon any of the questions arising under this Section. There was another matter, and a most important one, and it was in what matters were they to have a right of appeal? The Committee ought to lay down that there ought not to be a right of appeal at all, except on most important subjects, and it was for the Government to decide what matters there ought to be an appeal upon. It was not for the Opposition to point out that they ought not to have an appeal in this or that matter, but it was for the Government to make up their minds what were the large matters and important subjects upon which the appeal was to take place. He agreed with his hon. friend the Member for Poplar that the appeals ought to be limited to two subject matters: (1) whether or not in any direction given by the local authority they were trenching upon the jurisdiction of the managers, because they were affecting to deal with religious and not secular instruction; and (2) that they were to have a right of appeal against any decision of the local authority referring not to repairs, but to the improvement or alteration of the building. Assuming that there ought to be a right of appeal, in order to define whether a certain direction or order on the line of religious or secular instruction, and that there ought to be a right of appeal on alterations and improvements, they ought now to consider whether they were confining the right of appeal to these subjects. He could conceive of no broader words, giving a right of appeal, than the words of this sub-Section, and he thought a court of law would say in every particular that there would be a right of 1240 appeal. Take seriatim some of the things. The first part of the Section said—
In the case of a school not provided by them, the following conditions and provisions are complied with.Obviously, a question which would come up would be the question whether any of "the following conditions" were complied with. That would open the door to an appeal in every case, and give a right of appeal to the managers. In sub-head (a) it was provided—(a) The managers of the school shall carry out any directions of the local education authority as to the secular instruction to be given in the school.Whether or not that was complied with was a question which might very well arise. He asked whether or not, in the event of a direction not being complied with by the managers, there would be an appeal.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid it was very likely there would be an appeal.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid that was a matter of very great importance. The appeal might be on the question whether or not a direction was to be carried out on the smallest matter in connection with the management of the school. He supposed that similar questions must arise with regard to the direction given as to the "number and educational qualifications of the teachers to be employed." He thought there ought to be an appeal within the meaning of sub-Section 2 in that case. Sub-Section (b) stated that—
(b) The local education authority shall have power to inspect the school.It did not appear likely that there would be an appeal under that. Sub-Section (c) said—(c.) The consent of the local education authority shall be required to the appointment of teachers, but that consent shall not be withheld except on educational grounds, and the consent of the authority shall also be required to the dismissal of a teacher unless the dismissal be on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction in the school. Provided that assistant teachers and pupil teachers may be appointed, if it is thought fit, without reference to religious creed or denomination.There might be a state of things where, under that sub-Section, an appeal might be taken. He wished to know whether there would be an appeal on questions of repairs dealt with in sub-Section (d).
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYreplied that if the local education authority said the buildings were in need of repair and the managers said they were not, there must be some authority to decide the matter.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid that was surely a matter which the local education authority ought to decide. It was idle to say that there ought to be an appeal in such a case. They were asked to say that the inspector or surveyor employed by the local authority was not competent to state whether a school was in sufficient repair or not. The terms of sub-Clause 2 were much too wide. It was not for him to indicate now what form of words should be put in the sub-Section, but he submitted that, with the view to the peaceful and successful working of Clause 8 in the educational machinery of the country, they ought to limit the right of appeal on questions which might give rise to dispute between the local authority and the school managers. It should also be made clear whether the local authority had the right to call upon the managers to make improvements or alterations which might mean structural alterations or additions to the school. Of one thing he felt confident, and that was, that on all these minor matters there ought not to be an appeal. The sub-Clause was now in a condition in which it ought not to emerge from the Committee.
§ MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)said it must be apparent to the Government that the terms of the sub-Clause were far too wide. He did not say they were too wide as the Clause was drawn in its original form, but since that time all sorts of qualifications and additions had been made, and in consequence of the new wording there were now points on which appeals might arise, though appeals would not have been possible on them before. Therefore it seemed to him that, if the sub-Clause stood in its original form, the Board of Education would be overwhelmed with work during the next few years, and a very large staff would be required. He would point out to the Government that the multiplication of appeals on individual points would tend to bring about a deadlock in the management of the schools. Sub-Clause (2) contained a Condition 1242 which he supposed was intended by the draftsman of the Bill to give the Board of Education power over the managers as well as over the local authority. It was that—
… compliance with this Section shall be one of the conditions required to be fulfilled by an elementary school in order to obtain a Parliamentary grant.In the case of the managers being contumacious the Parliamentary grant was to be withdrawn from that particular school, but the Parliamentary grant was by Clause 13 to form a portion of the money of the local authority for educational purposes. The local authority could hardly be expected under the circumstances to maintain the school. Was that so?
§ THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir William ANSON, Oxford University)said that if a school ceased to earn the Parliamentary grant the local authority would be no longer liable to maintain the school.
§ * MR. YOXALLsaid he wished to put this position. Suppose on an appeal the Board of Education decided in favour of the managers and the local authority refused to accept the decision, could the Board compel compliance? Unless they did so the school would come to an end and the whole process of the appeal would be rendered nugatory. No good would have been done to the school, but infinite harm. He was afraid that would happen again and again if the sub-Clause now before the Committee was sustained. They would hardly expect to get the great local authorities of Lancashire, the West Riding of Yorkshire or Birmingham to submit on infinitesimal points emerging under this Clause to the Board of Education in disputes as between a body of six managers and themselves. A dispute in the first instance would arise with the local education committee and the managers. The decision of that committee could be reviewed and if necessary reversed by the local education authority. This fact lessened the need for an appeal to the Board of Education. He urged upon the Government that, having regard to the statement in the text of Clause 8, to the new points which had been added, and in respect to the admirable additions—for they were admirable—which had been made to it, 1243 that it became necessary to revise the terms of sub-Section 2 in the direction of making them narrower. The sub-Section went too far, and would inevitably lead to acute disputes arising from political and doctrinal reasons, and from wounded pride and dignity. Another difficulty in the way of the smooth working of the Bill would be largely removed if the Government would consent to reconsider the terms of sub-Section 2, and insert some such words as would give an appeal from the managers to the Education Committee, and from the Education Committee to the County Council or the Borough Council. If the managers could not obtain what they called "justice" after that, it might be fairly contended that justice was not on their side, and that no appeal should lie to the Board of Education.
§ (6.2.) MR. BECKETT (Yorkshire, N. R., Whitby)said that an appeal to the Board of Education was, in his opinion, right, desirable and necessary; but he had listened to the Attorney General's speech, and had been struck with the multiplicity of the points on which an appeal to the Board of Education might lie. He asked the Government whether it would not be possible to limit, or at least to specify, the points on which an appeal could be made to the Board of Education.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that the Attorney General had insisted that they had raised spectres of the friction which might arise, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman had in his speech proceeded to clothe those spectres with flesh and blood. He began by giving the Committee the points of appeal which might arise in reference to sub-Section (a), but as the Bill now stood it was evident that there might be a few on any part of the Clause as to what was religious education, what was control, and what was legitiemat expenditure? Suppose the local education authority said to the managers of a school—"We require you to build another class room," and that the managers considered that an excessive demand, the latter would, as he understood it, have an appeal to the Education Department. If the Department decided that an extra 1244 class room was not required, and the local authority said, "Then we will do with one teacher less," he supposed that the managers would have another appeal.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that that was not so. The directions of the local authority as to secular instruction, including the number of teachers, were conclusive.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that in that case the local education authority against whom the appeal went would be able to punish the managers, or to bring pressure to bear upon them through its control over the expenditure. The Clause as it stood provided for the possibility of friction, and allowed the local education authority to find their own way.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the local education authority would, in that way, punish the children and not the managers.
§ SIR EDWARD GREYsaid he would have thought that there was an appeal under the Bill as it stood. This brought him to the same point as had been raised by the hon. Member for Whitby, that it was desirable to restrict the possibility of these appeals as much as possible. He shared the terror of the Attorney General in regard to litigation in the Law Courts. He hoped the Committee would not put anything into the Bill which would bring the parties into the Law Courts. The First Lord had said that the local education authority should not be the judge in its own case. What did that mean? It meant that they were establishing a dual control, and they all knew that dual control had brought them into the greatest difficulty in Egypt, and in regard to the Irish land question. The Attorney General's speech showed an optimism which he could not share, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman had said how admirably the dual control would work between the Education Department and the local education authority. He however should say that they should limit the dual control on as many of these points as possible by making the managers subordinate to the local education authority. If there was to be an appeal, he would rather it was to be made to the Education Department than to the Law Courts, and therefore he should like to 1245 see words introduced into the section which would limit the points under which appeals could be made.
§ SIR JOHN GORST (Cambridge University)said he desired to call the attention of the Attorney General to the fact that in many cases another education authority had been introduced. In urban districts the authority which used the schoolroom out of school hours would not be the elementary authority, but the secondary education authority. It was possible that under this Clause a dispute might arise between the managers of the school and the County Council, and between the Borough Council and the County Council. In that case who was to decide? Let the Committee take the case in which a County Council used the schoolroom out of school hours for an evening school, and refused to make good the damage which might be done to the furniture and the room. As regarded the furniture, the dispute would be between the County Council and the Borough Council, and as regarded the damage to the room the dispute would be between the County Council and the managers. If that was not covered by the words of the sub-Section, would the Attorney General have them altered?
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that before the Attorney General answered the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, he wished to ask another, which seemed to him necessary after the speech of his right hon. friend. His question was whether the Government proposed to keep this sub-Section unchanged as it stood? If so, it applied to board schools as well as denominational schools.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that there was an Amendment on the point later down on the Paper.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that if that provision did not apply to board schools, which would be disastrous, then he would be satisfied. There could be no doubt whatever that the language applied to the other sub-Sections, and if the Government did not intend the language to apply to the first sub-Section, surely it should be altered.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that in regard to the point raised by his right hon. friend the Member for Cambridge University, probably the proper course would be to make the provision a separate sub-Section. For the reasons given by his right hon. friend below the gangway he thought that if the disputes referred to arose, and it was conceivable that they might, they should be left to the County Court. There could be no disputes between the managers in the case of provided schools, because they were purely agents of the local education authority, and might be discharged at their pleasure. The Government, however, had not the least objection to accept words which should make the point clear.
* SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)pointed out that under the Bill the pupil teachers would in many places be instructed and examined by the pupil-teacher instructor, who would be an officer of the Technical Education Committee of the District Council, a body outside and independent of the managers. Difficulties would arise between the two authorities; for example, the managers might not like the instructor to visit their schools and inspect the work of the pupil teachers, yet inspection was necessary for efficient training. In such cases he asked would there be an appeal to the Education Department or to the County Council as the highest local education authority. These difficulties might arise, and he thought a word or two of explanation from the Attorney General would be most desirable.
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid it must depend upon the precise nature of the dispute, and if what he had already said were applied to each particular case it would furnish the answer.
§ MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley)rose to support the claim of every Member of the Opposition that the authority of the County Council should not by this Bill be diminished in power. The School Boards had gone, and all their works had departed, and the County Council was the authority set up by the Government in their place as 1247 the authority which must be entrusted with the work of education. It had therefore been a great pity to find that where this work was put upon them their power to a great extent had been taken away. They were entitled to some respect for the work they had done. Large sums of money had been entrusted to them to administer, and no appeal had been made, with regard to their actions, to a higher Court. He could see no necessity, therefore, to limit their dealings with the managers of the schools by a number of vexatious appeals, which could only give rise in the minds of the County Councils to a feeling that their authority was diminished. The confidence of the Government in the work of the County Councils had been shown by the fact that the South Kensington Department had now been ordered to hand over to them the whisky money, with the administration of which the Education Department had hitherto been entrusted. The County Councils had now been exercising their powers for thirteen years; they had proved to be efficient bodies, and, that being so, he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would not now diminish their authority.
§ MR. BUTCHER (York)thought the House was generally agreed that some of these disputes must be decided by the Board of Education, but he wanted to know how the rest of the disputes were to be dealt with. He understood the suggestion was that those disputes which did not go to the Board of Education should be decided by one of the parties themselves, viz., the education authority. How did the matter stand? By this Clause certain obligations were imposed on the managers. If they discharged those obligations, they would have the right to call on the County Council for assistance; if they did not discharge them they could not call on that body. Disputes might arise between the managers on the one hand and the local education authority on the other. Was it conceivable that, in a dispute between those two parties, they should set up as the final court of appeal as to the merits of that dispute one of the parties themselves? The proposal was absurd on the face of it. The House, moreover, had already decided against 1248 that principle, the question having been introduced by way of Amendment on the 21st of the present month by one of the hon. Members for Birmingham.† On those two grounds he asked the House to reject the Amendment.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURMight I appeal to the House to come to a decision now upon this point. I admit it is an important point, but it has been now a long time before the Committee, and it has been fully discussed. The speeches have not been by any means of a perfunctory character, and I suggest that the Committee should now be allowed to divide.
§ DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)said he viewed with the greatest apprehension this system of wholesale appeal which the sub-Section set up. The right of intervention on the part of the central authority to bring a local authority up to a higher standard, which had had a very beneficial effect, was one of the things which the Government proposed to strike out. The Government proposed to repeal all the sections of the Act of 1870 which gave the executive authority a right of intervention. This right of intervention which was now proposed was of quite a different character, and he looked upon it as tending to damp down progress, to veto the desire for educational progress in the localities. He agreed that a dispute as to what was secular and what religious was a subject which ought to be referred to a third party. What were the facts with regard to the financial condition of the voluntary schools? Many of them were in a hopeless condition, and there would be great difficulty in finding money to make repairs. Many of them had no voluntary subscriptions at all, and how were they to comply with the demands made on them as to lighting, heating, and sanitary and other arrangements? What would the Board of Education do? Eight hundred and eleven had no voluntary subscriptions at all; 715 had subscriptions which amounted to less than 1s. per child; in 1,370 the subscriptions were between 1s. and 2s. 6d. a child. All these schools being unable to meet
†See page 385.1249 the requirements of the local education authority, the Board of Education would have to step in to examine whether the demands were reasonable. Who was at present at the head of the Education Department? Lord Londonderry, who recently went out of his way to meet the chief inspectors of schools, and to tell them with regard to the schools, some of which were not well suited for the work, that they must not
| AYES. | ||
| Agg Gardner, James Tynte | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Aird, Sir John | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Crossley, Sir Savile | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Davenport, W. Bromley- | Helder, Augustus |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Henderson, Sir Alexander |
| Arrol, Sir William | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Hoare, Sir Samuel |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Doughty, George | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hoult, Joseph |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Duke, Henry Edward | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Howard, John (Kent, F'versham |
| Barhurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Beresford, Lord Chas. William | Faber, George Denison (York) | Kemp, George |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fardell, Sir T. George | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Bignold, Arthur | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Bigwood, James | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. (M'ne'r. | Keswick, William |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Kimber, Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Finch, George H. | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Knowles, Lees |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Fisher, William Hayes | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Flower, Ernest | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Forster, Henry William | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Butcher, John George | Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Galloway, William Johnson | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Carew, James Laurence | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Carlile, William Walter | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Gore, Hn. G R C. Ormsby- (Salop | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol S.) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lowe, Francis William |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Graham, Henry Robert | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A (Worc. | Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds | Macdona, John Gumming |
| Chapman, Edward | Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Greville, Hon. Ronald | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W |
| Clive, Capt. Percy A. | Groves, James Grimble | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Coddington, Sir William | Gunter, Sir Robert | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Hain, Edward | Middlemore John Throgmorton |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hall, Edward Marshall | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hambro, Charles Eric | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hamilton Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) |
§ put the rules too rigidly into force. He felt that this veto would be disastrous.
§ (6.33.) MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question 'That the words "any question," stand part of the Clause' be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 239; Noes, 100. (Division List No. 446.)
| More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Renwick, George | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Ridley, Hon, M. W. (Stalybridge | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Mount, William Arthur | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Murray Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Valentia, Viscount |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limenouse) | Vincent Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Myers, William Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Seely, Maj, J. E. B.(Isle of Wight | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Ta'nt'n) |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Williams, Rt. Hn. J Powell-(Birm |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Percy, Earl | Spear, John Ward | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk | Wylie, Alexander |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Younger, William |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Stone, Sir Benjamin | |
| Purvis, Robert | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | TELLER FOR THE AYES — |
| Rankin, Sir James | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (O'fd Univ) | |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Helme, Norval Watson | Price, Robert John |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rea, Russell |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Holland, Sir William Henry | Rickett, J, Compton |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Horniman, Frederick John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Jacoby, James Alfred | Runciman, Walter |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Joicey, Sir James | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Brigg, John. | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shackleton, David James |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kinloch, Sir John GeorgeSymth | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kitson, Sir James | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Burns, John | Lambert, George | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Burt, Thomas | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Leng, Sir John | Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R (Northants |
| Caine, William Sproston | Levy, Maurice | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Cameron, Robert | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Logan, John William | Thomas, J. A. (Glam'n., Gower) |
| Channing Francis Allston | Lough, Thomas | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Wallace, Robert |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Markham, Arthur Basil | Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mather, Sir William | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dunn, Sir William | Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Edwards, Frank | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Mewnes, Sir George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth. |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grant, Corrie | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) | |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Partington, Oswald | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Paulton, James Mellor | TELLERS FOR THE NOES. — |
| Harmsworth, R, Leicester | Philipps, John Wynford | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur. |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Pickard, Benjamin |
§ (6.48.) Question put accordingly.
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Anson, Sir William Reynell | Arrol, Sir William |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John |
| Aird, Sir John | Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bain, Colonel James Robert |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nryEden | Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Balcarres, Lord |
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 243; Noes, 102. (Division List No.447.)
| Baldwin, Alfred | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Flower, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Forster, Henry William | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Foster, Philip S(Warwick, S. W. | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Galloway, William Johnson | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gore, Hn. G. R. COrmsby-(Salop | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. | Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bignold, Arthur | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Bigwood, James | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Mount, William Arthur |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Graham, Henry Robert | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Bond, Edward | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEd'mnds | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Myers, William Henry |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Grenfell, William Henry | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Groves, James Grimble | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Butcher, John George | Gunter, Sir Robert | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Carew, James Laurence | Hain, Edward | Percy, Earl |
| Carlile, William Walter | Hall, Edward Marshall | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midd'x | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pryce-Jones, Lt.- Col. Edward |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Purvis, Robert |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A (Worc'r | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Rankin, Sir James |
| Chapman, Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Charrington, Spencer | Heaton, John Henniker | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Helder, Augustus | Renwick, George |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Ridley, Hon. M.W (Stalybridge |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Higginbottom, S. W. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hogg, Lindsay | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Hope. J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hoult, Joseph | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Cox. Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone. W.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Howard, John (Kent. Faversh'm | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, H. C (North'mb Tyneside |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Kemp, George | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Kennedy, Patrick James | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Spear, John Ward |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Keswick, William | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Kimber, Henry | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Knowles, Lees | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Doughty, George | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n, N |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sh'ffi'ld |
| Fellowes. Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lowe, Francis William | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton |
| Finch, George H. | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Macdona, John Cumming | Williams, Rt. Hn. J Powell- (Birm |
| Fisher, William Hayes | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E.R.) | Wylie, Alexander | TELLER FOR THE AYES, Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and MR. Anstruther |
| Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Younger, William |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Helme, Norval Watson | Pickard, Benjamin |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Price, Robert John |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | Rea, Russell |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Holland, Sir William Henry | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Bayley, Thos. (Derbyshire) | Horniman, Frederick John | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jacoby, James Alfred | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Brigg, John | Joicey, Sir James | Runciman, Walter |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kearley, Hudson E. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kinloch, Sir. John George Smyth | Shackleton, David James |
| Burns, John | Kitson, Sir James | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Burt, Thomas | Lambert, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Caine, William Sproston | Leng, Sir John | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Caldwell, James | Levy, Maurice | Spencer. Rt. Hn. C.R. (Northants |
| Cameron, Robert | Lewis, John Herbert | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lloyd-George. David | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Logan, John William | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Cremer, William Randal | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Crae, George | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Trevelyan, Charles Phillips |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wallace, Robert |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mather, Sir William | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds.S |
| Dunn, Sir William | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Weir, James Galloway |
| Edwards, Frank | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Moulton, John Fletcher | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Newnes, Sir George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Grant, Corrie | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Partington, Oswald | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Paulton, James Mellor | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Phillipps, John Wynford | Mr. William M'Arthur. |
§ (6.59.) MR. A. J. BALFOURclaimed to move, "That the Question 'That the words of the Clause from the word "arises," in line 25, to the word "grant," in line 29, both inclusive, stand part of the Clause' be now put."
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Beckett, Ernest William | Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William |
| Aird, Sir John | Beresford, Lord Chas. William | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bignold, Arthur | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A (Worc. |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Bigwood, James | Chapman, Edward |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Charrington, Spencer |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bond, Edward | Churchill, Winston Spencer |
| Arrol, Sir William | Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Clare, Octavius Leigh |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Clive, Captain Percy A. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Brotherton, Edward Allen | Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Coddington, Sir William |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Butcher, John George | Cohen, Benjamin Louis |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Carew, James Laurence | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Carlile, William Walter | Compton, Lord Alwyne |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cavendish, It. F. (N. Lancs.) | Cranborne, Viscount |
§ Question put, "That the Question That the words of the Clause from the word "arises," in line 25, to the word "grant," in line 29, both inclusive, stand part of the Clause' be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 232;Noes, 100. (Division List No. 448.)
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Helder, Augustus | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Higginbottom, S. W. | Percy, Earl |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cust, Henry. John C. | Hogg, Lindsay | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Hoult, Joseph | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Houston, Robert Paterson | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Purvis, Robert |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Rankin, Sir James |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Doughty, George | Kemp, George | Ren wick, George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kennedy, Patrick James | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Keswick, William | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Kimber, Henry | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Knowles, Lees | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lawrence, Wm. F (Liverpool) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. (Manc'r | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Finch, George H. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Smith, H. C.(N'rth'mb. Tyn'side |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Spear, John Ward |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich |
| FitzGerald Sir Robert Penrose- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Flower, Ernest | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Forster, Henry William | Lowe, Francis William | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Foster, Phillip S. (Warwick, S. W | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'rick | Macdona, John Cumming | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n N |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Gosehen, Hon. George Joachim | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfied | Majendie, James A. H. | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S. Edm'ds | Manners, Lord Cecil | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'n | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton | Valentia, Viscount |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Groves, James Grimble | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. | Williams, Rt. Hn.J Powell-(Birm |
| Gunter, Sir Robert | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Guthrie, Waiter Murray | Morrell, George Herbert | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Hain, Edward | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R,) |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Mount, William Arthur | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H (Yorks.) |
| Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Wylie, Alexander |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G (Midd'x | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Murray, Col Wyndham (Bath | Younger, William |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Myers, William Henry | |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Nicholson, William Graham | |
| Hatch. Ernest Frederick Geo. | Nicol, Donald Ninian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Cremer, William Randal |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Burns, John | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Burt, Thomas | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Buxton, Sydney Charles | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Caine, William Sproston | Duncan, J. Hastings |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Caldwell, James | Dunn, Sir William |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C.B. | Cameron, Robert | Edwards, Frank |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Causton, Richard Knight | Emmott, Alfred |
| Brigg, John | Cawley, Frederick | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Channing, Francis Allston | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Grant, Corrie | M'Crae, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Markham, Arthur Basil | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Mather, Sir William | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Moulton, John Fletcher | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol. E. | Newnes, Sir George | Thomson, F.W. (York, W. R.) |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Tomkinson, James |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Wallace, Robert |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Partington, Oswald | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Joicey, Sir James | Philipps, John Wynford | Weir, James Galloway |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Pickard, Benjamin | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Price, Robert John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Kitson, Sir James | Rea, Russell | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Lambert, George | Reckitt, Harold James | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rickett, J. Compton | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Leng, Sir John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Levy, Maurice | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Runciman, Walter | |
| Lloyd-George, David | Schwann, Charles E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Logan, John William | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur. |
| Lough, Thomas | Shackleton, David James |
§ (7.13.) Question put accordingly.
| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Forster, Henry William |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Aird, Sir John | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Coddington, Sir William | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) |
| Arkwright John Stanhope | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cranborne, Viscount | Greene, Sir EW (B'rySEdm'nds |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Grenfell, William Henry |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Crossley, Sir Savile | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Groves, James Grimble |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Cust, Henry John C. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Gunter, Sir Robert |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Davenport, William Bromley- | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Beckitt, Ernest William | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Hain, Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Beresford, Lord Charles William | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hambro, Charles Eric |
| Bignold, Arthur | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x |
| Bigwood, James | Doughty, George | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Bond, Edward | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Duke, Henry Edward | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Helder, Augustus |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Henderson, Sir Alexander |
| Carew, James Laurence | Faber, George Denison (York) | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Carlile, William Walter | Fardell, Sir T. George | Hoare, Sir Samuel |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. |
| Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Finch, George H. | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Hoult, Joseph |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc. | Fisher, William Hayes | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Chapman, Edward | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Howard, John (Kent, Favershrm |
| Charrington, Spencer | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Flower, Ernest | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 232;Noes, 98. (Division List No. 449.)
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Mount, William Arthur | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Kemp, George | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Spear, John Ward |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Kimber, Henry | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Myers, William Henry | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Knowles, Lees | Nicholson, William Graham | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H. | Parker, Sir Gilbert | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Percy, Earl | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Pierpoint, Robert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Plummer, Walter R. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Pretyman, Ernest George | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffi'ld |
| Lowe, Francis William | Purvis, Robert | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) | Rankin, Sir James | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Williams, Rt. Hn. J Powell-(Birm. |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Remnant, James Farquharson | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Renwick, George | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool) | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir HE (Wigt'n | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Younger, William |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | |
| Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight | Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Price, Robert John |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Rea, Russell |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Helme, Norval Watson | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rickitt, J. Compton |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Holland, Sir William Henry | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Horniman, Frederick John | Runciman, Walter |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Brigg, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Joicey, Sir James | Shackleton, David James |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kearley, Hudson, E. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Burns, John | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Hurt, Thomas | Kitson, Sir James | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Lambert, George | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Caldwell, James | Leng, Sir John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Cameron, Robert | Levy, Maurice | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lloyd-George, David | Thomson, F. W (York, W R.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Logan, John William | Tomkinson, James |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lough, Thomas | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Crae, George | Wallace, Robert |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Markham, Arthur Basil | Weir, James Galloway |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mather, Sir William | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Edwards, Frank | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Emmott, Alfred | Newnes, Sir George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | |
| Grant, Corrie | Partington, Oswald | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Philipps, John Wynford | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Pickard Benjamin |
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.