MR. PATRICK O'BRIENI beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is yet in a position to say if he will provide time for the discussion of the grave state of Ireland asked for by the Irish Members; and, if so, when.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)Perhaps I may be allowed to intervene, with a view of facilitating the action of the right hon. Gentleman. I had the opportunity of stating on Monday what my view of this matter is, and I said that I cordially supported the claim of the Irish Members. The right hon. Gentleman, as I understand him, on this Irish question, which is not, of course, exclusively, but certainly supremely Irish, declines to give a day for discussion on the mere request of the Irish Members, and will only give it if a Scotchman or an Englishman asks him for it. As I am possessed of that qualification [Cries of "Which?"] I am glad to join in making the request.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD or THE TREASURY (MR. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)The right hon. Gentleman does indeed appear to have facilitated my answer to the hon. Gentleman. He is mistaken, however, in supposing that I refused a day to the Irish Members because they were Irish Members, or that I am prepared to give it to the right hon. Gentleman because he happens to be a Scotchman. I give it to the right hon. Gentleman because he speaks, as I understand him, as Leader of the Opposition, and on behalf, not of a section of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but of those hon. Gentlemen as a whole, as a body in this House. The right hon. Gentleman desires that there should be a Motion put down on the Paper and discussed, which of course from 485 the very nature of the case would be a Vote of Censure, and under those circumstances I am ready, as I have always expressed myself ready, to give the opportunity which the right hon. Gentleman desires. I suppose, perhaps, a week's notice should be given, and this day week would be a convenient day. A Vote of Censure is sufficiently important not to be taken without some notice, and subject to anything the right hon. Gentleman may have to say I shall propose to devote this day week to the Resolution he desires to move.
MR. PATRICK O'BRIENMay I be allowed to say that while, of course, we accept the time the right hon. Gentleman is going to give us, we do not concede our right, as representatives of Ireland, to claim to get time for the discussion of the affairs of that country.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. Gentleman seems to think that there is some special disability in this matter attaching to Irish Members. I can assure him he has entirely misinterpreted everything that I have said and thought on the subject. I should equally have declined to give a day to any section of hon. Gentlemen opposite unless it had been understood——
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLWe are a distinct Party; we are no section. We represent a nation.
§ MR. CONDON (Tipperary, E)We are a Party; we are not a section.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURFor the word "section" I would substitute the word "fraction." I should equally have declined to give a day to any fraction of hon. Gentlemen opposite unless it had been supported by the official Opposition. I give it because it has been asked for by the Leader of the Opposition, who proposes to move a Vote of Censure.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANNo. All I do is—I might almost say, at the instigation and the solicitation of the right hon. Gentleman—to join in asking for a day for the discussion of this matter. The Motion properly and naturally comes from the representatives of Ireland. 486 With regard to fixing a particular day, will the right hon. Gentleman reserve the matter for a final decision?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI will certainly reserve it, but there seems to be a little ambiguity and difficulty introduced into the discussion by the last remark of the right hon. Gentleman. Of course, it would not be proper for me to dictate who is to move the Resolution. That is a matter entirely to be settled by the Opposition themselves. But it must be distinctly understood that the right hon. Gentleman does not simply come forward as an amicus curiœ, merely because he wants to see a discussion take place; it must be understood that the Motion is arranged under his auspices; that it is in the nature of a condemnation of the Government; and that it is officially supported by the right hon. Gentleman.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANWhat I have asked for, and continue to ask for, is that an opportunity should be afforded to the Irish Members to challenge the administration of affairs in Ireland, and to the Government to make a statement of the reasons which have led them to adopt the steps which they are now following in Ireland. Then the House can pronounce its opinion upon the subject.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI really think the right hon. Gentleman had better make up his mind.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (Cork)You had better make up yours.
§ MR. MACVEAGHThis is not a debating society.
MR. A. J. BALFOUKI think it would be for everybody's convenience that there should be a clear issue on this point, and if the right hon. Gentleman cannot go further—if he really cannot take the full plunge this afternoon—I think we had better defer this.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANThe right hon. Gentleman, departing, I think, somewhat from his usual courtesy, taxed me with not having made up my mind, when I have not altered my statement or opinion from the first. What 487 I have done I have described to the House. The right hon. Gentleman having stated that he would not give this day, which I think ought to be given, at the instance of the Irish Members, I am willing to do them and the House and the public and the good government of Ireland the service of joining in asking for a day. The Motion will be an Irish Motion, and it will be for the House to pronounce its opinion upon it.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the last thing I wanted to do was to show discourtesy to him, and if anything I have said can be so interpreted I was quite unconscious of it, and I at once withdraw and apologise. But may I again repeat exactly what I feel the circumstances to be? It is, so far as the Government and this side of the House are concerned, a matter of complete indifference whether the Resolution, for which, if it be a Vote of Censure, I am prepared to give time, is moved by an Irish Member or by the right hon. Gentleman himself, or any one on the Front Bench. If I may offer an opinion, I think it possible that the most convenient course would be that an Irish Member should move it, as being especially acquainted with that side of the case. But that is no affair of mine. What is an affair of mine—and the right hon. Gentleman will see that I am really doing this in the interests of what I regard as the general principles of Parliamentary practice—is that it should be understood that, whoever moves the Motion, it should be adopted by the Opposition as a whole, not by every individual, of course, but by the Opposition as a whole, that it is in the nature of a direct condemnation of the conduct of the Government, and that it is supported officially by right hon. Gentlemen on that Bench.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)I only wish to say that I entirely repudiate, on behalf of my hon. friends, the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman that we must submit our Motion to the censorship, the revision, or the approval of any Party in this House, and I am perfectly sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will put forward no such preposterous and insulting demand. The right hon. 488 Gentleman the Leader of the House has apologised for any discourtesy as unintentional in his language towards the Leader of the Opposition. May I say that he has, I think, quite unintentionally, employed towards us, and, which is more important, our country, most insulting language. We claim to be a nation, and we regard the use of such words as "section" or "faction," as a deliberate insult to a nation whose civilisation, I may say, preceded and may also succeed that of this country.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI appear to be very unfortunate in my expressions. I think the hon. Gentleman will see, if he will permit me to explain, that the very last meaning my words were susceptible of was the suggestion of insult to himself, his friends, or his country. I was trying to describe what I conceived to be the proper course for the Opposition as a whole. Talking of the Opposition as a whole, I described the representatives from Ireland as a section. [NATIONALIST cries: "You said 'faction'"] whereupon the hon. Member for Cork interrupted me with great vehemence and repudiated the phrase "section." Thereupon I cast about me for a more neutral phrase, and I used a word which, at all events in my school days, I never thought had a political, religious, or specially national reference. The word was "fraction" [NATIONALIST cries: "You said 'faction.'"] Ever since I have been connected with fractions at school I have thought the word purely neutral in its reference. I used it on this occasion because it simply connotes the fact that eighty Irish Gentlemen are only a certain portion of the total number of the Opposition, which amounts, I think, to about 260. The date of the civilisation of Ireland, which I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman preceded that of this barbaric country, really docs not invalidate the fact that eighty is only a fraction of 260. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that nothing but that pure statement of fact was intended to be implied by what I said.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORI said I did not think the right hon. Gentleman intended discourtesy; I only said that his language must be regarded by us as insulting language which could not be allowed to pass without protest. But 489 I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman what is really a much more important matter than his language—are we or are we not, after this tangled conversation, to understand that the right hon. Gentleman refuses to the representatives of Ireland a day for the discussion of the exercise of coercion in their country?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI hoped that I had been lucid in my explanation, and that there was hardly anything to be added. I am perfectly ready to give a day to the Opposition for the discussion of a Motion condemnatory of the Government's Irish policy. I did not ask that that Motion should be placed in the hands of an English Member, or even seen by an English Member, or subjected to revision by the right hon. Gentleman, or to any of the processes to which the hon. Gentleman appears to object; all I say is that it must be put on the Paper as a Motion of the Opposition as a whole, and intended to be supported by them as a whole.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANI may recall to the right hon. Gentleman the familiar lines:—
The Spanish fleet thou canst not see—because It is not yet in sight.This Motion is not in sight. I do not know what Motion may be made by the Irish Members; and he invites those sitting in this part of the House to pledge themselves to support a Motion of the terms of which they are totally ignorant. No, Sir, I stand by what I have said already. We think it is the duty of the Government to give this day. We think it is scandalous that it should be refused; and we shall form our opinion upon the case made out by the Irish Members and the Government respectively.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENMay I suggest that it is about time to drop the subject? If we are not going to get a day given to us, it is just possible that we may be able to take it.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. gentleman is perfectly at liberty to do anything consistent with the Rules of the House. As regards the observations from 490 the right hon. Gentleman opposite, would not the best course be, in these circumstances, to wait till the Resolution is put down on the Paper, and then he can inform me and the House of the view which he takes?
§ * MR. SPEAKERI must remind the House that there is no Question before it.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENThen I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether he has observed that the President of the United States of America has addressed a message of sympathy to the United Irish League Convention at Boston, and whether, in view of the future relations between this country and America, he can make any announcement that this country is not indisposed to learn wisdom as to Irish affairs from President Roosevelt, as the head of a great friendly nation—the greatest nation in the world.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLrose.
§ * MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! This discussion must cease.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENI must press for an answer today.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI followed the hon. Member's Question. It is not a Question that was in order or could have been put on the Paper. It is not a Question asking for information.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENOn the question of order, Mr. Speaker, allow me to submit that a message by the President of the United States—[Interruption]—you are not going to closure the President of the United States here. [Renewed interruption.] I submit that this message——
§ * MR. SPEAKERI appeal to hon. Members on both sides of the House to let me at least hear what the hon. Gentleman is going to say.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENThank you, Sir. I was about to submit to you that this message of the President of the United States of America is an international fact of the first importance to the future of this country, and that it would not be a friendly thing to the 491 head of a great nation like the Americans that his message should be treated as if the disposition were to avenge his insult to the Chief Secretary and to his "removables" in Ireland.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is entitled to consider the matter important, but it is not the subject-matter of a Question at Question time.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENI beg, then, to ask leave of the House to move the adjournment for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—videlicet, the important question as to the future relations between this country and the United States raised by the message of President Roosevelt to the convention of the United Irish League in Boston.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI am precluded by the Standing Orders from accepting that Motion for the Adjournment. I am prohibited from accepting any Motion which is not a definite matter of urgent public importance. The relations between this country and the United States of America are not a definite matter. They might cover an immensely wide field of argument. If the hon. Member were to look at the precedents he would find that Motions of that description have always been refused from the Chair under the Standing Order.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORMay I respectfully put it to you that the Motion does not deal with the general relations of this country and the United States, but with a definite matter?
§ * MR. SPEAKERI have just decided that point, and I have no doubt as to the correctness of my view. I cannot allow the subject to be re-opened. I assure the hon. Member I am always ready to accept any Motion from any quarter of the House which is in conformity with the Standing Order.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENThe fault is none of yours, Mr. Speaker, but I hope it will be noted in America that American opinion and Irish opinion are closured and gagged in this House.