HC Deb 25 November 1902 vol 115 cc449-91

As amended, further considered.

(9.0.) MR. BRYCE

moved the adoption of a new Clause to remedy the inconveniences, confusion, and occasion for friction, which he has satisfied would be found to arise from the system of dual control of voluntary school buildings set up by the Bill. They were now attempting to create what had been called a national system of education, and surely one of its characteristics ought to be a certain measure of uniformity. He would suggest thata one of the best ways of removing the inconveniences of dual control would be to bring the school buildings under the control of the local authority, to transfer them from the managers or trustees, and to put them equally with the provided

schools under the control of the local authority. This might properly be done by the application to the cases of section 23 of the Act of 1870. Let him say a word or two about the schools to which it was proposed to apply that section. They had got too much in the habit of talking about them as if they were the property of a denomination—of the Church of England or of the Wesleyans. But they were not in any sense the property of a denomination. They were schools held under certain trust deeds and incapable of being used except for the objects of the trust. The trusts were educational, and primarily for the education of the poor; in some cases, but not in all, they were for the education of children in the tents of a particular denomination. A crisis had arisen in the history of these schools. They could no longer continue under the old system. During the last few years they had more and more complained of the difficulty of supporting themselves; the managers had said it was impossible to get sufficient subscriptions to keep the school efficient and had applied to the Government for aid. The Governments under this Bill had come to their assistance and proposed to maintain the schools out of the rates, while leaving the liability for repairs on the shoulders of the managers or trustees, or owners of the buildings. Under this proposal the local authority would become the owners of the schools either in fee simple or as lessee, would undertake the whole cost or repairs as well as maintenance, and would carry out the trusts, as far as might be, consistently with the changed circumstances of the time. That was to say, the local authority would carry out the primary object of the trust, that of providing elementary instruction, and would also provide for religious instruction by securing that the trustees or managers should be entitled to have religious instruction at such times as would not interfere with the ordinary secular instruction. The question arose on what terms the transfer should be made. Strictly speaking, looking at it as a question of law, it would appear that no Clause could be founded to have any payment made for the use of the schools, because after all they were charity schools held upon trust, which the State had a perfect right to vary. Suppose the schools were sold, no person had a right to appropriate the money. The trustees could not put it into their pocket. If, therefore, the schools were devoted to purposes of elementary education, no claim could arise in respect of them. It was necessary, however, to make a general arrangement. Acting under the Act of 1870, the Committee of Council laid down the principle that nothing should be given to trustees whose schools were taken over by the School Board, the only consideration to be the maintenance of the school; in fine, it was to be a gratuitous transfer. If, therefore, they were now to provide that these schools should be taken over at a nominal rent, they would be doing no more than was contemplated by the Act of 1870. His proposal was that the transfer should be made upon such terms regarding rent or purchase-money as may be agreed between the trustees and the local education authority, or, in default of agreement, fixed by the Board of Education, regard being had to the purposes for which, under the trust deed, the buildings may be used, to the sources whence the sums expended on the buildings were derived, and to the rights of user reserved to the trustees. That appeared to him to be a reasonable compromise. The question followed, upon what basis the value of these school buildings should be estimated? Some very exaggerated and absurd estimates had been made of their total value; he had known it estimated as high as £40,000,000 or £50,000,000. He thought his hon. friend the Member for Wigan, however, estimated it at about £15,000,000.


More than that.


If they made the various deductions which ought in reason and equity to be made from any estimate of the capital value of these schools, he thought less than half of £15,000,000 would probably fairly represent their value. They would have to deduct the schools not under trust, the property of private owners, which were not covered by this Amendment. They would find, too, a large number of schools which had been erected to a great extent out of building grants from the National Exchequer, and on land which had been given without any denominational condition. There was a large number of these schools which were undenominational; and, in addition, he believed a great many of the schools would be handed over by the denomination. They must consider, too, that the buildings were not saleable, partly on account of the trust, and partly because they were not fitted for other uses. Putting all these things together, he believed the value would be reduced to a figure which would not impose any very heavy tax on the resources of the local authority. He therefore suggested that the proper course for them to take would be to empower the local authority to purchase or lease these schools—he did not think the power should be made in the first instance compulsory; and that if the parties could not agree on terms the value should be settled by the Board of Education. What was their desire was that the control of all buildings should be in the hands of the local authority, and that there should be the same kind of jurisdiction for all schools. Although this scheme no doubt departed from that hitherto advocated by the Government, it would have the greatest possible advantage of being uniform and simple.

New Clause:— The managers or trustees of any school which by its trust deed is to be used for the purposes of instruction as an elementary school shall at the request of the local education authority transfer the school buildings to that authority either by way of lease for a term of years renewable for ever or absolutely, Pursuant to section twenty-three of The Elementary Education Act, 1870, upon such terms regarding rent or purchase-money as may be agreed between the trustees and the local education authority, or, in default of agreement, fixed by the Board of Education, regard being had to the purposes for which under the trust deed the buildings may be used, to the sources whence the sums expended on the buildings were derived, and to the rights of user reserved to the trustees. Provided that such managers or trustees may reserve out of such transfer to trustees, to be nominated by them for that purpose, the use of the school buildings when the same are not being used for school purposes, and may provide for the giving of any religious instruction, over and above that which may be given by the teachers, either before the opening or after the close, or both before the opening and after the close, of the ordinary school hours, under the direction either of the last hereinbefore mentioned trustees, or of such person or persons as the last hereinbefore mentioned trustees may from time to time appoint. "—(MR. Bryce.) Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


said he had listened to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman with a good deal of surprise. If he had not known the right hon. Gentleman to be and eminent constitutional lawyer he should have termed his proposals revolutionary, and to a certain extent predatory, and they would involve such and entire change in the policy of the Government that it could hardly be expected that they would for a moment be entertained. The right hon. Gentleman began with a kindly consideration of the difficulties under which voluntary schools would labour when the local authority had a very large user of the building, and he was so kind as to suggest that the difficulties in regard to the school buildings might be solved by a happy and rapid process of extinction of the voluntary schools. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of cases in which land had been given for purposes of the construction of a school without any denominational condition, although by long practice the school was denominational, and such schools he proposed to hand over to the education authority without inquiry into the intentions of the original donor. Then he proposed a process of expropriation to which the owners of the property were to have no alternative. He founded himself on Clause 23 of the Act of 1870, but did not dwell on the important fact that the provisions of that Clause were optional. That was a very different thing from a compulsory process of expropriation in which the persons having the legal ownership of the land had no choice, and under which the local education authority was to be empowered, as its own request, to take the land whether the owner would or no. It was a very different thing to take land without an option at a price to be ascertained and to allow land with liabilities upon it to be handed over at the request of the persons interested. The Board of Education might thus fairly say, "If you choose to get rid of your liabilities in this way there shall be a nominal price or the rent shall be a peppercorn rent." But assuming, as the right hon. Gentleman did assume that in these cases a substantial rent or a substantial price would be demanded, what was the process? Surely under such circumstances there would be a reference to some form of legal inquiry, so that the authorities might be satisfied that their claims had been assessed by a tribunal used to dealing with such matters. The provisions of the Lands Clauses Act with a reference to arbitration or to a sheriff's jury would be the right hon. Gentleman had suggested. Under other circumstances questions of a similar kind to this had been referred to the proper machinery under the Lands Clauses Act with a sherif's jury, or a court of arbitration. There was to be a reservation to the trustees to nominate other persons under whose supervision religious instruction, in accordance with the terms of the trust, or the practice and principles under which the trust had been administered, was to be given out of school hours. That surely was a very poor representation of the terms of the trust or the practice and principles of the school as they had been conducted in the past, and under which religious teaching had been given as a part of the children's education. He held the strongest opinion that religious instruction, if it was to be of real value to the child, should not be given by a separate instructor and at a separate time but should really be a substantial part of the education of the child. He asked the House whether it was not a complete departure from the principles upon which this matter had been conducted, that these schools should be taken away from the ownership under which they had hitherto existed, and placed under the local education authority under which the religious instruction hitherto given as part of the school daily course would be given by a separate instructor at different times? He did not think this could be considered as any sort of equivalent for the system under which the schools had existed down to the time of this compulsory appropriation. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was not merely a serious invasion of the rights of property, conducted under the semblance of a kindly consideration for the difficulties of trustees. It was also an absolute reversal of the policy of the Bill, an entire departure form the intention of the Bill to preserve denominational schools where they were capable of supporting themselves and maintaining their independent existence and the instruction which they had given to the satisfaction and advantage of the area in which they were situated. He hoped, therefore, the House would not delay long in expressing its opinion that the new Clause could not be accepted.

(9.35) MR. GEORGE WHITE () Norfolk, N. W.

said he desired to say a few words in support of the Amendment proposed by his right hon. friend. He did so partly because it contained the principles of a Resolution which was agreed to unanimously by the City Council of Norwich, which was composed of a majority of the supporters of the church of England, and in which they declared that a solution of the religious difficulty was to be found by the authority hiring and taking possession of the various schools known as denominational schools. The hon. Baronet who had just addressed the House said that this proposition would be revolutionary, but a proposal which had received such support could not be regarded in that light, and particularly in view of a letter which had been Written by one of the most trusted and honoured Churchmen of Norwich—Archdeacon Sidney Pelham. In that letter reference was made to the fact that the question was forcing itself upon many Churchmen whether the time had not come when the Church of England might safely surrender her schools to the strong and sympathetic influence of religious people. It was also pointed out that as the denominational schools were depending more and more upon the taxes, and quickly becoming the schools of the nation, that they should be dealt with in a way similar to that proposed by this Clause. They heard these schools described too often as "our schools." When it was remembered what large sums of public money were paid for their support, it was, in his opinion, an entirely unwarrantable claim to speak of them in this manner. Some of these schools were used for an entirely opposite purpose to that for which the grants were given them. There were some in Norwich which were used as parish rooms and Sunday schools, and in no sense used as elementary schools. It should be emphasised that these schools were not the private property of one denomination. They received large grants of public money to carry on certain duties, and if they failed to perform them they should either transfer them, so that they could be used for the purpose for which the grants were made, or the money should be refunded to the public authority. He believed it was true that the Free Church of Scotland transferred the whole of their schools to the public authority without any payment.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON () Manchester, N. E.

Because the religion was to be maintained.


said Members on the Opposition side were quite as anxious for religious teaching as hon. Members opposite. As the Council of Norwich said in their resolution, there should be simple Bible teaching, with the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer, and for special denominational purposes facilities should be given as described in this Clause. The value of a large number of the schools in Norfolk had been greatly overrated. Many of the schools were old, and would have to be dealt with in a very drastic way if they were to be used for the educational requirements of the day. In Norfolk more than £30,000 of public money had been granted towareds the building of these schools. When they were taken over from the private owner their capital value woule be much smaller than the general estimates offered to this House and to the country. He warmly supported this proposition.


reminded the House that there were such persons in the world as private owners. Many of these schools had been conveyed under the Schools Sites Act, with the proviso that in the event of the land ceasing to be used for the purposes mentioned it should revert to the owners whence it came. Clearly a provision such as the Clause contained would amount to absolute confiscation. He knew a case where a site was conveyed under the Schools Sites Act, but as it became totally unsuited for the purposes of education owing to a change in the population, it reverted to the owner. If this proposal had been in force that site would have been lost to the owner. In this instance the site was valued, and the owner gave to a new school the full value of that site. Still the owner was entiled to that site, seeing that it had ceased to be used for the purposes of a school. He contended that to take away that site from the owner would have been absolute, direct, and complete confiscation. He did not think that he need dwell upon the arguments of previous speakers, but he would point out that here was the greatest difference between the Section of the Act of 1870 and the Clause moved by his right hon. friend. Some of them thought the Act of 1870 was very harsh, and many schools had been transferred in a panic which, if more time had been granted, would never have been transferred at all. The friends of voluntary schools had to deal with the facts of the case, and he thought they had done their best under difficult circumstances.

They must remember that their Roman Catholic brethren had never transferred one single school, and had shown in this respect an example to protestants which they would have done well to have followed more closely. In the case of the Act of 1870, the consent of the managers was required, but in addition there was a power given of prohibition upon alienation except by the consent of other outside persons. When the National Society made their grants they imposed a condition that their consent would be required for the transfer. In cases where the old school was in a bad condition, the National Society had given their consent; but in many cases, by withholding their consent, in the course of a year or two a more wholesome condition of opinion had arisen, and schools had been saved. Under this proposal all those schools would be doomed. In the Act of 1870, as regarded voluntary schools, they had found that the principle of partial transfers had entirely failed, and they had already ceased to sanction transfers under those conditions. The reason was that if they transferred the schools for certain hours only they had found so much friction and inconvenience that the working of that scheme was absolutely impossible. They had been taught by experience that this partial transfer during certain hours of the day and for certain purposes did not answer in practice and had caused great disappointment and could not, in justice to voluntary schools, become a part of the national system of this country.


said that in and about 1871 a great number of these transfers took place, and he thought they took place beneficially for the national interest. The National Society since then had done its best to prevent these tranfers and they had now been told by the hon. Baronet opposite that the Naional Society meant to pursue that policy to the end and adopt the same course with regard to transfers arising out of this Bill. He wished to point out to the hon. Baronet and to the First Lord of the Treasury that perhaps a proposal of the kind made by his right hon. friend might be advisable as a safety value for use when this Bill became an Act of Parliament and came into operation. Many localities would regard this Act with great suspicion and would be inclined to use the legal rights which they possessed both within and outside the limits of this Act to the utmost. One of their rights would be, in the case of a quarrel between the managers and themselves to refuse to deal with the managers in the way the managers might desire. The hon. Baronet opposite had referred to the Schools Sites Act. There were hundreds of cases in the country where, if the question was looked into by a court of law, it would be found that buildings originally erected by a trust, to which contributions had been made in the way of building grants by the Board of Education, were now in the possession of a denomination, and were not being used for day school purposes at all. The House might depend upon it that these local authorities, through their municipal and legal advisers, would take steps to discover what was the legal position of these schools, and in the event of a quarrel, and if it became impossible to carry on the school. then this question of the legal ownership of the building and the reversion of the site under the Schools Sites Act would be gone into and would be considered in a very awkward way. Therefore it appeared to him that the proposal would be a valuable provision in the working of the Bill as a safety value against that kind of thing. In many cases the buildings would cease to be used as a school because of a quarrel between the local authority and the trustees, and it would be wise to insert a provision to relieve the difficulty which would arise. In the Act of 1870 it was laid down that schools could be leased at a nominal rent or otherwise. For some reason, the Board of Education in 1871 laid down by Minute that only a nominal rent was to be paid. His right hon. friend now proposed to allow more than a nominal rent to be paid, so that the trustees might in that way obtain funds for the maintenance of the fabric and the upkeep of the building. Unless some such provision was made, either in the Bill or by Minute of the Board of Education, in case of difficulty or quarrel there would be no alternative but to call in the School Sites Act, and the operation of the provisions under which building grants were given. The trustees might find themselves unable to carry on the schools as voluntary schools, having lost their parliamentary grant, unable to carry on the schools with the assistance of the local authority because of a quarrel between the local authority and the trustees, unable to sell their building because of the lien which the State had upon them in respect of the building grant, and yet unable to give over the site of the building to the original donor under the School Sites Act. The hon. Baronet, the Secretary to the Board of Education, would do well to consider the propriety of issuing a new Minute with regard to the rents for such schools.

MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire,) Eifion

said the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education appeared to be labouring under considerable misapprehension. He had spoken about compulsory expropriation, and had used other expressions indicating the opinion that the trustees of this property were the owners. The trustees were not the owners; and therefore the word "expropriation" was altogether inappropriate when the beneficial ownership remained in the same persons as before. The beneficial owners were the persons on whose behalf the trust had to be exercised, and the trustees were merely the nominal owners in whom the lega lestate was vested for purposes which were of no benefit to them, but were a labour and obligation upon them. The duties of the trustees were now to be shifted on to other shoulders, and it was right and proper that the machinery given to them to perform those duties should be handed over also. He quite recognised that there might be subsidiary trusts on which the property was held to a certain extent. The trustees might have the use of the buildings for Sunday School and evening services, but the Clause was so framed as to safeguard such cases. The House ought to face the situation boldly, and say that, so far as the buildings were impressed with a trust for public education, they should be transferred to the body in whose hands Parliament had placed the duty of administering public education.


said the Amendment was an important one, and he should support it as a possible alternative to the Government's proposal. The Secretary to the Board of Education had described the Amendment as" Predatory." but how could that be when a rent was offered for the building? It was altogether a question of the amount of rent. The trustees were surrendering the functions for which they were created as a trust, and if they were surrendering their liabilities, was it too much to say that they must also surrender their assets? But his right hon. friend did not go as far as that. Where was the robbery in taking over a trust in which the balance was on the wrong side? Robbery came in when you deprived a man of his property for your own benefit. Here there was no benefit except that of the public; from the financial point of view it would be a burden on the locality. According to the Bishop of London the rent value of these properties was £750,000. He believed that to be a grossly exaggerated estimate, but for the purposes of argument he would accept it. The exclusive use of the buildings for religious purposes on Sundays and week evenings was surely worth £250,000. That left £500,000 which might be charged against the State, although, when it was remembered that these were purely educational trusts, it was not right to so charge the whole of them sum. However, the Government, under this Bill, were giving by way of a grant in aid £1,200,000, less than one half of which would have settled the whole problem and nationalised all the schools, without depriving any body of trustees of their rights in the property. It was a grave misfortune the Government had not faced that problem. The Amendment

of the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich demonstrated that in his view, the religious difficulty would be met in more than half the parishes in the Kingdom by the granting of facililties for teaching the dogmas of the particular sections in the National Schools. That condition would be met by the proposal of his right hon. friend, and no one would contend that education would not be better served by the complete control being vested in one body rather than in two bodies which were hostile upon several points.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

expressed his regret that the proposal had not been brought forward in a voluntary rather than a compulsory form and that opportunity had not been given to the House to consider proposals of a more moderate character. If certain proposals to facilitate the voluntary leasing of schools under certain conditions had been brought to discussion, the Government might have seen their way to amend Section 23 of the Act of 1870, which certainly did not give the facilities for transfer desired in certain places. Owing to the action of the Board of Education and the National Society that Section for many years had a very limited operation. If a freer hand had been given to managers and fewer consents required, he believed they might have achieved the end desired by many people, viz., the stamping of schools with a public character, and at the same time securing the denominational teachers.

(10.12.) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes,102; Noes,196. (Division List No.557.)

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Brigg, John Causton, Richard Knight
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud) Broadhurst, Henry Cawley, Frederick
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brown, GeorgeM. (Edinburgh) Channing, Francis Allston
Atherley-Jones, L. Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Craig, Robert Hunter
Barran, Rowland Hirst Burt, Thomas Cremer, William Randal
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Buxton. Sydney Charles Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Bell, Richard Caldwell, James Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Black, Alexander William Cameron, Robert Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Campbell-Bannerman Sir H. Duncan, J. Hastings
Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr
Fenwick, Charles Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomas, JA.(Glamorgan, Gower
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Newnes, Sir George Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Paulton, James Mellor Tomkinson, James
Fuller, J. M. F. Perks, Robert William Toulmin, George
Griffith, Ellis J. Philipps, John Wynford Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Price, Robert John Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Rea, Russell Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Helme, Norval Watson Rickett, J. Compton Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Rigg, Richard White, George (Norfolk)
Holland, Sir William Henry Roberts, John Bryn (Eition) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Horniman, Frederick John Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Whiterey, George(York, W. R.)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Roe, Sir Thomas Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Runciman, Walter Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Jacoby, James Alfred Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Kitson, Sir James Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Wilson, Fred W.(Norfolk, Mid.
Lambert, George Shackleton, David James Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Langley, Batty Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Layland-Barratt, Francis Shipman, Dr. John G. Woodhouse, SirJ. T(Huddersf'd
Leese, SirJoseph F.(Acerington Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Yoxall, James Henry
Leigh, Sir Joseph Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Levy, Maurice Spencer, RtHn. C. R (Northants
Lewis, John Herbert Stevenson, Francis S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur
Lloyd-George, David Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Lough, Thomas Tennant, Harold John
M'Crae, George Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. SirJosephC. Hickman, Sir Alfred
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Disracle, Coningsby Ralph Hoare, Sir Samuel
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hobhouse, RtHnH.(Somers't, E
Arkwright, John Stanhope Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hogg, Lindsay
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Bailey, James (Walworth) Dyke, RtHon. Sir William Hart Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bain, Colonel James Robert Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Hoult, Joseph
Baldwin, Alfred Fardell, Sir T. George Hudson, George Bickersteth
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Balfour, Rt. HnGeraldW.(Leeds Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Mane'r Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Kenyon-Slaney, Col W.(Salop
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Keswick, William
Bignold, Arthur Fisher, William Hayes King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bigwood, James Fison, Frederick William Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Blundell, Colonel Henry FitzGerald, Sir RobertPenrose- Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Bond, Edward Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon Lawson, John Grant
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lee, ArthurH.(Hants, Fareham
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex Flower, Ernest Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Forster, Henry William Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Brookfield, Colonel Montagn Gardner, Ernest Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Bull, William James Garfit, William Lockie, John
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(CityofLond. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Cavendish, V. C. W(Derbyshire Gordon, MajEvans-(T'rH'ml'ts Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham
Cecil, Lord Hugh(Greenwich) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Chapman, Edward Goulding, Edward Alfred Lowe, Francis William
Charrington, Spencer Graham, Henry Robert Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Greene, HenryD.(Shrewsbury) Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Grenfell, William Henry Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gretton, John Macartney, RtHn W. G. Ellison
Colomb, SirJohnCharlesReady Groves, James Grimble Macdona, John Cumming
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hain, Edward M'Arthur. Charles (Liverpool)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x M'Cann, James
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hanbury, Rt. Hon. RobertWm. Majendie, James A. H.
Cranborne, Viscount Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd Malcolm, Ian
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, W. J. H(Dumfriesshire
Crossley, Sir Savile Harris, Frederick Leverton Milvain, Thomas
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Dalkeith, Earl of Heath, ArthurHoward(Hanley Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)
Denny, Colonel Helder, Augustus More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire
Dewar, SirT. R.(Tower Hamlets Henderson, Sir Alexander Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamstow
Morrison, James Archibald Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tufnell, Lient.-Col. Edward
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Tully, Jasper
Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute Royds, Clement Molyneux Valentia, Viscount
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Rutherford, John Walker, Col. William Hall
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Sack ville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Walrond, Rt. HnSirWilliam H.
Myers, William Henry Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Warde, Colonel C. E.
Newdegate, Francis A. N. Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. Webb, Colonel William George
Nolan, Col John P.(Galway, N.) Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE(Taunton
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sharpe, William Edward T. Welby, SirCharlesG. E.(Notts.
Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington Skewes-Cox. Thomas Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Percy, Earl Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside Willox, Sir John Archibald
Pilkington, Lieut,-Col. Richard Smith, James Parker(Lanarks) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Spear, John Ward Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Plummer, Walter R. Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stewart, SirMark J. M'Taggart Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stone, Sir Benjamin Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Purvis, Robert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wylie, Alexander
Rankin, Sir James Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Remnant, James Farqubarson Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Younger, William
Renshaw, Sir Charles Blue Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(OxfdUniv.
Renwick, George Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Ridley, Hon M. W.(Stalybridge Thornton, Percy M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir Alexander AclandHood and Mr. Anstruther.
Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Richie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Tritton, Charles Ernest
* (10.25) MR. CHANNING

said that the effect of the new Clause which stood in his name was to practically restore to the local authority the option which had been removed by the striking out of Clause 5. It would enable the County Council and County Borough Council to continue the School Board as the education authority. He had not placed this new Clause upon the Paper with a view to rendering a mere barren testimony to the virtues of School Boards. He felt certain that they would come back after the passing of this Bill before long to something like the old ad hoc machinery. He did not believe that the people of this country would for long consent to leave education in the hands of a non-representative cabin-window committee, largely of officials and interested persons, and to put up for any length of time with a system that did not directly represent the people in educational matters. The only objections he had heard against the School Board system were those with which they were so familiar and which had been urged by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University. He had always regarded those as cap-and-bell arguments. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had spoken of School Boards as exciting no interest, but he could not have taken part in School Board work or a School Board election or he would never have used such an argument. The right hon. Gentleman had attempted to make a case against the School Boards by quoting the instances of a handful of School Boards in tiny villages containing some-what backward and sleepy communities, where perhaps a few thousand children had been submitted to a parsimonious regime. Because a few village schools like that had been starved by cheese-paring farmers they were calmly asked to set aside the democratic School Boards of the great towns representing populations by the hundred-thousands, the instruments which had rescued the people by the million from the ignorance and absolute barbarism of thirty years ago. That was the argument, and it was an insult to the intelligence of the country and of this House to thus invite them to sweep away the machinery which had worked, and was working, such splendid results. They had been taunted with the argument that there was no demand for the retention of the School Board system. At the North Leeds election the wonderful victory which was won there was almost entirely fought out on this one question of the absolute incompetence of the Town Council on Leeds to deal with education, while the democratic School Board of Leeds had produced the most recognised the duty of providing a complete alternative scheme to that of the Bill, and had placed other Clauses on the Paper for the creation of district School Boards and a central court authority for controlling all branches of education, so as to give effect to the scheme laid before the country by Lord Spencer He begged to move the new Clause standing in his name.

New Clause— The Council of a county or county borough, or of any borough with a population of over ten thousand, or of any urban district with a population of over twenty thousand, may, after such notices and under such regulations as the Board of Education shall prescribe, determine by resolution that any existing School Board within the county, or the existing School Board in any county borough, or in any borough with a population of over ten thousand, or urban district with a population of over twenty thousand, as the case may be, shall be the local education authority for the purposes of Part III. of this Act within the area for which such School Board has been formed, and thereupon such School Board shall have throughout their area, in respect of Pat III. of this Act, all the powers and duties of a local education authority under this Act as hereinafter provided."—(Mr. Channing.) Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


said that this proposal involved an entire reversal of the policy of the Bill. He did not know whether he was right or not, but he thought he heard the hon. Member say that te Town Council of Leeds was absolutely incompetent to deal with education. He could hardly think that the hon. Member was serious in that statement. Personally, he believed that the Town Council of Leeds was most competent for that work. He believed, also, that all the best elements of the present School Board in Leeds would be placed at the service of the new authority under this Bill, and either as members of the Town Council or the Education Committee, those people, who in Leeds had done such noble educational work, would put their services at the disposal of the community as in the past. This new Clause involved the sacrifice of that principle which was an essential feature of this Bill, namely, the co-ordination of all education, both secondary and elementary. He hoped the House was not prepared to abandon principles which had been so thoroughly established in their previous debates, and he trusted the House would reject this proposal.


said that he had no doubt that the time would come when the Government would have to go back on the present policy. There was a great deal to be said for making great School Boards the authority for all forms of education. He remembered that in the year 1899 the late Vice President of the Council spoke in terms of eulogy of the work of our great School Boards. It would be a most unfortunate thing if the work of the Scholl Boards in our great cities and towns was in any way hampered or interfered with by this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, speaking at Bradford on 11th January, 1899, stated that there was a great deal to be said for making the large School Boards the education authority for all forms of education. He felt confident that the time would come when the right hon. Gentleman would have ample proof that by this statement he had made a perfectly correct prophecy. He had no doubt himself that the personnel of the Leeds Town Council was as good as the Leeds School Board, but he felt that by handing over this great educational work to a committee, or to another body which was subject to any other authority, the work would break down from physical reasons, and the time would come when they would have to go back upon the policy of this Bill, and re-establish the ad hoc form of local government for educational purposes. In Leeds they had an enormous expenditure of about half a million of money upon education. They had a great many school departments and tens of thousands of children, and thousands of teachers connected with elementary education, and besides this there was also in Leeds the higher and technical education to be dealt with. Therefore for any municipal council to take over that work meant placing upon them more work then they could do thoroughly. The result would be that in Leeds the educational work would immediately devolve upon a committee more or less nor-representative in its character, and the consequence would be that the officials in all great towns in the future would be the persons charged with the administration of education. In such places as Leeds, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bolton, Manchester, and Liver pool, education would be, for the most part, in the hands of the officials, and he thought this would be the greatest educational leap in the dark which this country had ever taken. Without making any reflection upon the capacity of the Leeds Town Council, he had no hesitation in saying that this Government and its successor would find it necessary in the future to go back to the ad hoc principle. When the Government proposed to apply this Bill to London he should do his level best to show that London presented a case which could only be efficiently dealt with under the ad hoc principle. He hoped his hon. Friend would press this proposal to a division. He had every confidence that the Government would before long regret that it had wiped out by this Bill the experience, the capacity and the public spirit of great public bodies like the large Scholl Boards of this country, which, according to the late Vice President of the Council, had done such magnificent educational work.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON () Tower Hamlets, Poplar

said that he did not desire to argue that point of the small School Boards, but he held very strong views in reference to the position of the great Scholl Boards. He had to keep in mind the fact that they had been told that within a very few months the question of the London School Board would be dealt with on the lines of this Bill. What this Clause did was to give an option to the local authority created by this Bill if they found that they were incompetent to carry out the work, and instead of forcing this educational work upon them to destroy the good work which they were at present doing they would have the option of leaving the educational part of their work in the hands of the authority which up to now had carried on the work in such an admirable way. That was no reflection whatever upon the local authority, whether such authority was the County Council or the Borough Council. They could rely upon it that the local education authority would not leave this question in the hands of the School Board unless they were not able to carry out the work themselves. This Bill threw the educational work on the local education authority whether it broke down or not, and the result would be as was stated by the hon. Member for North Camberwell that the work of education would be placed in the hands of the officials. That was the position which the Government had been forced to accept, and the House must remember that the one authority promised upon the introduction of the Bill had now entirely disappeared. He was sorry that the argument of the one authority had "taken in" one or two of his hon. Friends on the Opposition side of the House, but he thought they were now beginning to see their mistake. The only point they had now to consider was what was the best way in which this educational work could be carried on. The Attorney General had stated that the work could be delegated to Committees, but surely it was better to allow the local authority the option of permitting the present educational body to carry on the work than to create a new non-representative

Committee which might be incompetent to carry on educational work. He confessed that he felt that there was enormous force in the proposal made by his hon. Friend, and if it were carried he thought it would help enormously the efficient working of this Bill.

(10.43.) Question put.

The House divided;—Ayes, 106; Noes, 207. (Division List No. 578.)

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Harmsworth, R. Leicester Runciman, Walter
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud Harwood, George Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Ashton, Thoms Gair Hayne, Rt, Hon. Charles Seale- Schwann, Charles E.
Atherley-Jones, L. Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Shackleton, David James
Barran, Rowland Hirst Helme, Norval Watson Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Holland, Sir William Henry Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bell, Richard Horniman, Frederick John Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Black, Alexander William Humphrerys-Owen, Arthur C. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jacoby, James Alfred Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R.(Northants
Brigg, John Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea Stevenson, Francis. S
Broadhurst, Henry Kitson, Sir James Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Lambert, George Tennant, Harold John
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Langley, Batty Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Burt, Thomas Layland-Barratt, Francis Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan Gower
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lewis, John Herbert Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Causton, Richard Knight Lloyd-George, David Tomkinson, James
Cawley, Frederick Lough, Thomas Toulmin, George
Craig, Robert Hunter M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Cremer, William Randal M'Crae, Georghe Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Crombie, John William Mansfield, Horace Rendall Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.
Dalziel, James Henry Markham, Arthur Basil White, Luke (York, E. R)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whiteley, George (York, W. R)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Newnes, Sir George Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Douglas. Charles M.(Lanark) Partington, Oswald Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Duncan J. Hastings Paulton, James Mellor Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone) Perks, Robert William Wilson, Fred, W.(Norfolk, Mid
Fenwick, Charles Philipps, John Wynford Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Price, Robert John Wilson John (Durham. Mid)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Rea, Russell Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Rickett, J. Compton
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Rigg, Richard
Fuller, J. M. F. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Channing and Mr. George White.
Gladstone, RtHn. Herbert John Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)
Griffith, Ellis J. Roe, Sir Thomas
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Atkinson Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Balfour, RtHnGerald W.(Leeds
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bailey, James (Walworth) Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bain, Colonel James Robert Bartley , Sir George C. T.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Baldwin, Alfred Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Plummer, Walter R.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hain. Edward Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton, RtHnLordG (Midd'x Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bigwood, James Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'rd Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Bond, Edward Hare, Thomas Leigh Rankin, Sir James
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Harris, Frederick Leverton Ratcliff, R. F.
Bowles, Capt, H. F.(Middlesex) Hatch. Ernest Frederick George Remnanat, James Farquharson
Bull, William James Helder, Augustus Renwick, George
Burdett-Coutts, W. Henderson. Sir, Alexander Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hoare, Sir Samuel Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire Hobhouse, Rt Hn. H.(Somers't ,E Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas Thomson
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hogg, Lindsay Robertson Herbert (Hackney)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A.(Wore. Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Chapman, Edward Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Charrington, Spencer Hoult, Joseph Royds, Clement Molyneux
Clive, Captain Percy. A. Hudson, George Bickersteth Sackville, Col S. G. Stopford-
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Sadler, Col, Samuel Alexander
Coghill, Douglas Harry Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse>
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Saunderson Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(Isle of Wight
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Keswick, William Sharpe, William Edward T.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lawrence. Wm. F. (Liverpool) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lawson, John Grant Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Cranborn, Viscount Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Spear, John Ward
Cripps, Charles Alfred Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Crossley, Sir Savile Leigh -Bennett, Henry Currie Stewart. SirMark J. M. Taggart
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Leveson-Gower Frederick N. S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Dalkeith, Earl of Lockie, John Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Sturt, Hon Humohry Napier
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Talbot, Lord E. (Chiehester)
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. Long, Rt, Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. Talbot, RtHnJ. G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lowe, Francis William Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Loyd, Archie Kirkman Thornton, Percy M.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth Tritton, Charles Ernest
Egerton, Hon, A. de Tatton Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G Ellison Tufnell. Lieut. Col. Edward
Fardell, Sir T. George Macdona, John Cumming Tully, Jasper
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r Majendie, James A. H. Walker, Col, William Hall
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Maxwell. WJH (Dumfriesshire Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H
Finch, Rt. Hon George H. Milvain, Thomas Warde, Colonel C. E.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Montagu. G. (Huntingdon) Webb, Colonel William George
Fisher, William Hayes Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E.(Tannt'n
Fison, Frederick William Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshipre) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Morgan, David J (Walth' mstow Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Morrison, James Archibald Willox, Sir John Archibald
Flower, Ernest Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wilson. J. W. (Worcetersh. N.)
Forster, Henry William Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)
Gardner, Ernest Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Wodehouse, Rt .Hn. E. R. (Bath
Garfit, William Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Gibbs, Hn. AGH (City of London Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts Myers, William Henry Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Newdegate, Francies A. N. Wylie, Alexander
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Nicholson, William Graham Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Goulding, Edward Alfred Nolan, Col. JohnP. (Galway, N. Younger, William
Graham, Henry Robert Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n
Greene, Henry D, (Shrewsbury) Pemberton, John S. G . TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Grenfell, William Henry Percy, Earl
Gretton, John Pierpoint, Robert
Groves, James Grimble Platt-Higgins, Frederick
(10.55.)MR. HELME () Lancashire, Lancaster

, in moving the Clasuse standing in his name, said that in the few minutes remaining he could only point out that the adoption of this Clause would reduce

to a minimum the objection held by many to sectarian teaching in elementary schools. No settlement could be come to except by consent, and he thought they had a right to ask, especially in the 8,000 parishes where there was only one school, that the religious instruction should be given in such a form as to be generally acceptable to the members of the different Churches. As the Bible was the common ground of Chirstianity, accepted by all the Protestant Churches as the basis of their teaching, catechetical or otherwise, he ventured to suggest that by the arrangement proposed to devote the first hour of the day on four days a week to general biblical instruction they would be meeting the wishes of those Nonconformist parents who desired that religious instruction should be given to their children but objected to have to withdraw them under the provisions of the Conscience Clause. By giving the catechism lesson during the last half-hour of the school meeting, those children might be allowed to go whose parents did not wish them to remain. He, therefore, urged the Government to accept this Clause, as affording a means of meeting the difficulty. He Knew cases in which the

proposed arrangement had worked remarkably well.

New Clause:— It shall be a condition of every public elementary school not provided by a local educational authority that no religious catechism or religious formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination shall be taught in the school, except during the last half-hour of the school meeting, and then only to those children whose parents have expressed in writing to the managers of the school a desire that such catechism or formulary shall be taught to their children. Provided that no bye-law shall prevent the withdrawal of any child from any religious observance or instruction in religious subjects or shall require any child to attend school on any day exclusively set apart for religious any day exclusively set apart for religious observance by the religious body to which his parents belong."—(Mr. Helme).

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

(10.58.) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 106; Noes. 210. (Division List No. 579.)

Allan, Sir Willam(Gateshead) Davies, Alfred (Carmarathen) Lewis, John Herbert
Allen, Charles P.(Gloue. Stroud Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Lough, Thomas
Ashton, Thomas Gair Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry Fenwick, Charles M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Atherley-Jones, L. Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) M'Crae, George
Barran, Rowland Hirst Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Markham, Arthur Basil
Bell, Richard Fuller, J. M. F. Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Black, Alexander William Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn Newnes, Sir George
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Griffith, Ellis J. Norman, Henry
Brigg, John Harmsworth. R. Leicester Partington, Oswald
Broadhurst, Henry Harwood, George Paulton, James Mellor
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Perks, Robert William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Philipps, John Wynford
Burt, Thomas Hotland, Sir William Henry Price, Robert John
Buxton, Sydney Charles Horniman, Frederick John Rea, Russell
Caldwell, James Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Rickett, J. Compton
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Jacoby, James Alfred Rigg, Richard
Causton, Richard Knight Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Cawley, Frederick Kitson, Sir James Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Channing, Francis Allston Lambert, George Robson, William Snowdon
Craig, Robert Hunter Langley, Batty Roe, Sir Thomas
Cremer, William Randal Layland-Barratt, Franics Runciman, Walter
Crombie, John William Leigh, Sir Joseph Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Dalziel, James Henry Levy, Maurice Schwann, Charles E.
Shackleton, David James Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Thomas, J. A.,(Glamorgan, Gower Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid.
Shipman, Dr. John G. Tomkinson, James Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Toulmin, George Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Trevelyan, Charles Philips Woodhouse, SirJT.(Huddersf'd)
Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Yoxall, James Henry
Stevenson, Francis S. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe White, George (Norfolk)
Tennant, Harold John White, Luke (York, E. R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Helme and Mr. Duncan.
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Lockie, John
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fielden, Edward Brock lehurst Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Long, Col. Chalers W. (Evesham)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh, O. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fisher, William Hayes Lowe, Francis William
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fison, Frederick William Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Flower, Ernest Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Balfour, RtHnGerald W. (Leeds Forster, Henry William Macdona, John Cumming
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gardner, Ernest M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Garfit, William Majendie, James A. H.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Gibbs. Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond. Maxwell, WJH. (Dumfriesshire)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'ml'ts Milvain, Thomas
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goulding, Edward Alfred Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.
Bignold, Arthur Graham, Henry Robert Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bigwood, James Gray, Ernest (West Ham) More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Morgan, DavidJ (Walthamst'w)
Bond, Edward Grenfell, William Henry Morrison, James Archibald
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gretton, John Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex Greville, Hon. Ronald Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Groves, James Grimble Murray, Rt Hn. AGraham(Bute
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Guest, Hon. Iver Churchill Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bull, William James Hain, Edward Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Burdett Coutts, W. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Myers, William Henry
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Newdegate Francis A. N.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hare, Thomas Leigh Nicholson, William Graham
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Harris, Frederick Leverton Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A.(Wore. Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Chapman, Edward Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Pea-e, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n
Charrington, Spencer Helder, Augustus Pemberton, John S. G.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Henderson, Sir Alexander Percy, Earl
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hickman, Sir Alfred Pierpoint, Robert
Coghill, Douglas Harry Higginbottom, S. W. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hoare, Sir Samuel Plummer, Walter R.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somerset, E Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Colomb, SirJohnCharles Ready Hogg, Lindsay Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hope. J. F.(Sheffield Brightside Purvise, Robert
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Hoult, Joseph Rankin, Sir James
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hudson, George Bickersteth Ratchff, R. F.
Cranborne, Viscount Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Remnant, James Farquharson
Cripps, Charles Alfred Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Crossley, Sir Savile Kemp, George Renwick, George
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Dewar, SirT. R. (Tower Hamlets Keswick, William Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. SirJoseph C. Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lawson, John Grant Rutherford, John
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Sadler, Col. Samual Alexander
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Fardell, Sir T. George Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Seely, Maj, J. E. B.(Isleof Wight Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Sharpe, William Edward T. Tritton, Charles Ernest Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Valentia, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside Walker, Col. William Hall Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) Walrond, RtHn. Sir William H. Wylie, Alexander
Spear. John Ward Warde Colonel C. E. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Webb, Colonel William George Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M.'Taggart Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton Younger, William
Stone, Sir Benjamin Welby, SirCharlesG. E. (Notts.)
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Thornton, Percy M. Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

It being after Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER,in Pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instanat, Proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments proposed by the Government to parts I. and II. of the Bill.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 4, at end, to insert, as a new sub-Section, the words, '(2) A Council, in exercising their powers under this Part of the

Act, shall have regard to any existing supply of efficient schools or colleges, and any steps already taken for the purposes of higher education under the Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

(11.12.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided:—Ayes, 209; Noes, 108. (Division List No 580.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Coghill, Douglas Harry Gibbs, Hn. H. A. G.(City of Lond.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gordon, Maj Evans-(Tr H'mlets
Anson, Sir William Reynell Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Arkwright, John Stanhope Colomb, SirJohn Charles Ready Goulding, Edward Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Compton, Lord Alwyne Graham, Henry Robert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Green, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Bailey James (Walworth) Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Grenfell, William Henry
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cranborne, Viscount Gretton, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Cripps, Charles Alfred Greville, Hon. Ronald
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds Crossley, Sir Savile Groves, James Grimble
Banbury, Frederick George Cubitt, Hon. Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Dalkeith, Earl of Hain, Edward
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Dewar, SirT. R. (Tower Hamlets Hall, Edward Marshall
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bignold, Arthur Doxford, Sir William Theodore Harris, Frederick Leverton
Bigwood, James Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Heath, ArthurHoward(Hanley)
Bond, Edward Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Helder, Augustus
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fardell, Sir T. George Henderson, Sir Alexander
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Hickman, Sir Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r Higginbottom, S. W.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Hoare, Sir Samuel
Bull, William James Finch, Rt Hon. George H. Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somerset, E
Burdett-Coutts, W. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hogg, Lindsay
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Fisher, William Hayes Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire Fison, Frederick William Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Cecil, Lord Hugh(Greenwich) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Hoult, Joseph
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Wore. Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hudson, George Bickersteth
Chapman, Edward Flower, Ernest Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Charrington, Spencer Forster, Henry William Jaffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Gardner, Ernest Kemp, George
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Garfit, William Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Newdegate, Francis A. N. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Keswick, William Nicholson, William Graham Stewart, Sir Mark J. M. Taggart
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm th Palmer, Walter(Salisbury) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lawson, John Grant Pemberton, John S. G. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lee, Arthur H.(Hants Fareham) Percy, Earl Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ)
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Pierpoint, Robert Thornton, Percy M.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Platt-Higgins, Frederick Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Plummer, Walter R. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward
Lockie, John Pryce-Jones, Lt-Col. Edward Valentia, Viscount
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Purvis, Robert Walker, Colonel William Hall
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Rankin, Sir James Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lowe, Francis William Ratcliff, R. F. Webb, Col. William George
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Remnant, James Farquharson Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunton
Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft) Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Renwick, George Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Macdona, John Cumming Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne
M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool) Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Willox, Sir John Archibald
Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Milvain, Thomas Ropner, Colonel Robert Wilson-Todd. Wm. H. (Yorks.
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon Royds, Clement Molyneux Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. Rutherford, John Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Morgan, DavidJ (Walthmastow Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Wylie, Alexander
Morrison, James Archibald Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Sharpe, William Edward T. Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Smith. Abel H. (Hertford, East
Murray, CharlesJ. (Coventry) Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks
Myers, William Henry Spear, John Ward
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Price, Robert John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Fuller, J. M. F. Rea, Russell
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton
Atherley-Jones, L. Harmsworth, R. Leicester Rigg, Richard
Barran, Rowland Hirst Harwood, George Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Robson, William Snowdon
Bell, Richard Helme, Norval Watson Roe, Sir Thomas
Black, Alexander William Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Runciman, Walter
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Holland, Sir William Henry Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Brigg, John Horniman, Frederick John Schwann, Charles E.
Broadhurst, Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Shackleton, David James
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Kitson, Sir James Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Burns, John Lambert, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burt, Thomas Langley, Batty Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Layland-Barratt, Francis Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Caldwell, James Leigh, Sir Joseph Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Levy, Maurice Stevenson, Francis S.
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Cawley, Frederick Lough, Thomas Tennant, Harold John
Channing, Francis Allston Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Craig, Robert Hunter M'Crae, George Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr
Cremer, William Randal Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Crombie, John William Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Dalziel, James Henry Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Newnes, Sir George Tomkinson, James
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Norman, Henry Toulmin, George
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Duncan, J. Hastings Partington, Oswald Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone Paulton, James Mellor Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fenwick, Charles Perks, Robert William White, George (Norfolk)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Philipps, John Wynford White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Whiteley, George (York, W. R. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Woodhouse, SirJT.(Huddersf'd
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Yoxall, James Henry
Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.

Amendment proposed— in page 2, line 17, to leave out the words 'or college,' and insert the words 'college or hostel' instead thereof."—(Sir William Anson.)

Question, "That the words 'or college' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

(11.24.) Question put, "That the words 'college or hostel' be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided:—Ayes, 213; Noes, 106. (Division List NO. 581.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Doxford, Sir William Theodore Kemp, George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)
Anson, Sir william Reynell Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Keswick, William
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fardell, Sir T. George Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r Lawson, John Grant
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fisher, Willam Hayes Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Lockie, John
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham
Beresford, Lord Chas. William Flower, Ernest Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Forster, Henry William Lowe, Francis William
Bignold, Arthur Galloway, William Johnson Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bigwood, James Gardner, Ernest Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Garfit, William Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth
Bond, Edward Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(City of Lond. Macdona, John Cumming
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Majendie, James A. H.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Goulding, Edward Alfred Massye-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Graham, Henry Robert Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Bull, William James Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Milvain, Thomas
Burdett-Coutts, W. Greene, HearyD.(Shrewsbury) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Grenfell, William Henry Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gretton, John Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Greville, Hon. Ronald More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)
Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A.(Wore Groves, James Grimble Morgan, DavidJ.(W'lthamst'w
Chapman, Edward Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morrison, James Archibald
Charrington, Spencer Hain, Edward Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Clive Captain Percy A Hall, Edward Marshall Mownrau, Sir Robert Gray C.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Colomb, SirJohnCharles Ready Hare, Thomas Leigh Myers, William Henry
Compton, Lord Alwyne Harris, Frederick Leverton Newdegate. Francis A. N.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hatch, Ernest FrederickGeorge Nicholson, William Graham
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Nolan, Col. JohnP.(Galway, N.)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hickman, Sir Alfred Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Cranborne, Viscount Higginbottom, S. W. Parkes, Ebenezer
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hoare, Sir Samuel Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n
Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton) Hobhouse, RtHnH(Som'rs't, E. Pemberton, John S. G.
Crossley, Sir Savile Hogg, Lindsay Percy, Earl
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Pierpoint, Robert
Dalkeith, Earl of Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Dewar, sirT. R.(Tower Hamlets Hoult, Joseph Plummer, Walter R.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. SirJosephC. Hudson, George Bickersteth Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward
Doughty, George Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Purvis, Robert
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Rankin, Sir James Spear, John Ward Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Ratcliff, R. F. Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne
Remnant, James Farquharson Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine Stone, Sir Benjamin Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Renwick, George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Willox, Sir John Archibald
Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wilson, A. Stanely(York, E. R.)
Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. Wodehouse, RtHon. E. R.(Bath
Robertson. Herbert (Hackney) Thornton, Percy M. Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Ropner, Colonel Robert Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Royds. Clement Molyneux Tritton, Charles Ernest Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Rutherford, John Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Wylie, Alexander
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Tully, Jasper Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Valentia, Viscount Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) Younger, William
Seely. Maj. J. E. B.(Isleof Wight Walker, Col. William Hall
Sharpe, William Edward T. Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Warde, Colonel C. E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander AclandHood and Mr. Anstruther.
Smith, AbelH.(Hertford, East) Webb, Colonel William George
Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE.(Taunton
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. Welby, SirCharles G. E.(Notts.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Allen. CharlesP(Gloue.,Stroud Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Sehwann, Charles E.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Helme, Norval Watson Shackleton, David James
Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Atherley-James, L. Holland, Sir William Henry Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Horniman, Frederick John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jacoby, James Alfred Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bell, Richard Kitson, Sir James Spencer, RtHn. C. R(Northants
Black, Alexander William Lambert, George Stevenson, Francis S.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Langley, Batty Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Brigg, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Tennant, Harold John
Broadhurst, Henry Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) Levy, Manrice Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Burns, John Lough, Thomas Thomas, J A(Glam'rgan, Gower
Caldwell, James Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.
Causton, Richard Knight M'Arthur, William(Cornwall) Tomkinson, James
Cawley, Frederick M'Crae, George Toulmin, George
Channing, Francis Allston Mansfield, Horace Rendall Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.
Craig, Robert Hunter Markham, Arthur Basil Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Cremer, William Randal Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Crombie, John William Newnes, Sir George White, George (Norfolk)
Dalziel, James Henry Norman, Henry White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Norton, Capt. Ceceil William Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh- Partington, Oswald Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Paulton, James Mellor Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Philipps, John Wynford Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Duncan, J. Hastings Price, Robert John Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.
Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) Rigg, Richard Woodhouse, SirJ T(Hudd'rsf'd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Yoxall, James Henry
Fuller, J. M. F. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Gladstone, Rt Hn. HerbertJohn Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Ellis Griffith and Mr. Trevelyan.
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Roe, Sir Thomas
Harwood, George Runciman, Walter
* MR. DUNCAN () Yorkshire, Otley

said he desired to move the omission of Clause 5. He was a member of a deputation which waited on the chief officials of the Education Department in order to impress on them the desirability of not

introducing into their Bill a proposal to deal with primary education. That was before Party feeling had been aroused; and they then thought that the great necessity was not to interfere with primary education, but to provide a system of secondary education. It had been stated more than once, throught out the debates on the Bill, that the object of the Government was to co-ordinate and unity education; and he felt that, in order to co-ordinate education, it would be necessary first to create a proper system of secondary education. It was quite true that the Country Councils had administered technical education very well; but a proper system of secondary education, which was the connecting link between primary and technical education, had not yet been created. A great deal had been said about the difficulty of dealing with primary education in large country boroughs, but he did not think that difficulty was comparable to the difficulty which wouldarise in a large county with a great number of schools scattered over many square miles. In the West Riding of Yorkshire there were 850 schools, employing 5,200 teachers, scattered over between 2,000 and 3,000 square miles. It was said that County Councils were too ambitious; that, in American parlance, "they had bitten off more than they could chew;" but in this case it must be noted that it was the intention of the Government to thrust on County Councils work which objected to having this work put upon them were in many cases Councils which had set an example to others by the manner in which they had managed the education entrusted to them. It was not because the Councils did not take a direct interest in all branches of education that they objected to primary education being put upon them. It was because they felt that the work should be done thoroughly, and because they desired to put into that work all the skill and experience they had in other branches of educational work. Reference had been made during the debate to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the late Vice-President of the Council at Bradford in 1899. He had the pleasure of listening to that speech; and if he had any objection to it at the time it was that the right hon. Gentleman put upon the School Boards the necessity for dealing with all branches of education. Those who had experience of educational work in the County Councils believed that technical educational work had been well done; but not in the proposal that all branches of education should be put into their hands. It would be more advisable if the large councils, whether borough, municipal, or county, should have the opportunity of retaining the School Boards, which in the past had done such excellent work, in order to carry on, for a time at any rate, the work of primary education. The School Boards in the North of England were elected for educational purposes; and the people had not lost faith in them, or in the way in which they had carried on their work. Believing that it was desirable that for a time at least the larger the larger School Boards, and some of the smaller ones, should be retained for the work which he was sure they would discharge as faithfully in the future as they had in the past, he moved the omission of the Clause.

Amendment proposed— To leave out Clause 5."—(Mr. Duncan.)

Question proposed, "That the words of the Clause, to the word 'secular,' in page 3, line 2, stand part of the Bill."


said he did nor propose to reply at any length to the speech of the hon. Member. The omssion of the Clause would go to the very root of the policy of the Bill; and to dicuss it now would be to revive a discussion which was carried on at considerable lentgh some months ago. He would only say that it was the belief of the Government that there would be great advantages in the counties and rural districts by establishing larger areas over which the local authority for elementary education would extend. To bring the education, in town and country under one co-ordinating authority would be of

undoubted advantage to the community. He quite admitted that they would lose something in the dissolution of the larger School Boards, which, in towns, had done work which no one undervalued. But in every great change in which great advantages were contemplated, some loss must needs be incurred, which they all regretted, but the gains were not merely commensurate to the losses but outweighed them immeasurably.

(11.48) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes. 166; Noes, 71. (Division List No. 582.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Doughty, George Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Kemp, George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Kenyon-Slaney. Col. W.(Salop)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Keswick, William
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fergusson, RtHn. SirJ. (Mane'r) Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Lawson, John Grant
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fisher, William Hayes Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Fison, Frederick William Lockie, John
Beresford, Lord Charles William Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Alegernon Long, Rt. Hn Walter(Bristol, S)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lord, Archie Kirkman
Bignold, Arthur Flower, Ernest Lucas, Col. Francis (Lawestoft)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Forster, Henry William Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)
Bond, Edward Galloway, William Johnson Macdona, John Cumming
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Gibbs, HnA. G. H(City of Lond.) M'Arhtur, Charles (Liverpool)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gordon, Maj Evans. (T'rH'mlets) Majendie, James A. H.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Graham, Henry Robert Massey-Mainwarning. Hn. W. F.
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Milvain, Thomas
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Grenfell. William Henry Montagu, G.(Huntingdon)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Gretton, John Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)
Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A.(Wore.) Greville, Hon. Ronald More, Robr. jasper (Shropshire)
Chapman, Edward Groves, James Grimble Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w)
Charrington, Spencer Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morrison, James Archibald
Clive, Captain Perey A. Hain, Edward Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hall, Edward Marshall Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Coghill, Dougals Harry Hamilton, RtHn LordG (Midd'x) Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Harris, Frederick Leverton Newdegate, Francis A. N.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Heath, Arhtur Howard(Hanley) Nicholson, William Graham
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Higginbottom, S. W. Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Cranborne, Viscount Hoare, Sir Samuel Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hogg, Lindsay Pease, Herbert pike (Darlington)
Crossley, Sir Savile Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside) Pemberton, John S. G.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Perey, Earl
Dalkeith, Earl of Hoult, Joseph Pierpoint, Robert
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Platt-Higgins, frederick
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Pryce. Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne)
Purvis, Robert Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Rankin, Sir James Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Willox, Sir John Archibald
Remnant, James Farquharson Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Renwick, George Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Ritch e, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Thornton, Percy M Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tomlinsen, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wylie, Alexander
Ropner, Col. Sir Robert Tully, Jasper Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Royds, Clement Molyneux Valentia, Viscount Younger, William
Rutherford, John Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Sackv lle. Col. S. G. Stopford Walker, Col. William Hall
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Walrond, RtHon. Sir WilliamH. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(Isle of Wight) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Sincla Louis (Romford) Webb, Colonel William George
Allen, Charles P. (Gloue.,Strood) Lambert, George Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Layland-Barratt, Francis Shipman, Dr. John G.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Leigh, Sir Joseph Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Levy, Maurice Soames, Arhtur Wellesley
Black, Alexander William Lewis, John Herbert Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (N'thants)
Brigg, John Lough, Thomas Taylor, Theodore C. (Radeliffe)
Broadhurst, Henry M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Tennant, Harold John
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) M'Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower)
Caldwell, James Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Causton, Richard Knight Markham, Arhtur Basil Tomkinson, James
Cawley, Frederick Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Toulmin, George
Channing, Francis Allston Norman, Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Craig, Robert Hunter Norton, Capt. Cecil William Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Cremer, William Randal Philipps, John Wynford White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Price, Robert John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dewar, John A. (Invernesssh.) Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gladstone. Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn Rigg, Richard Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd)
Griffith, Ellis J. Roberts, John Byrn (Eifion)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arhtur D. Roe, Sir Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Duncan and Mr. Georger White.
Helme, Norval Watson Runciman, Wlater
Holland, Sir William Henry Samuel, HerbertL (Cleveland)
Horniman, Frederick John Shackleton, David James
Kitson, Sir James Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Further Consideration, as amended, adjourned till Tomorrow.