§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§
Another Amendment proposed—
In line 11 after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'but the decision of the Board
1308
of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days' previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local authority, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
§ Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ (9.0.) MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid this was the first time that the Education Department had been set up as a legal tribunal, and in his judgment the Board of Education would not, in all cases, be competent to interpret the documents so as to give satisfaction to all who were interested in the controversy. There was a time, not far distant, when there was an eminent legal personage at the head of the Board of Education. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had been one of the legal advisers of the Crown, and would be admitted to be a competent authority to discuss the legal interpretation of certain deeds. At the present moment they had at the Board the hon. Baronet, who, perhaps, was not so qualified as his predecessors, but who nevertheless would show very great competency to deal with these matters. But they had not always such able Gentlemen representing the Board of Education in the House of Commons. They might, indeed, have a layman who was as qualified to give a proper legal interpretation of a document. They ought to discuss this question of inquiry on general principles. Whenever they asked the Board of Education to determine between two bodies how an endowment should be divided they ought to give public notice, and have a public inquiry so that the particular locality affected should have an opportunity of defending its own interests. Already, in three places in that Bill provisions had been inserted for public notice being given in certain events and for public inquiry to be held. The first was in Clause 9, dealing with the provision of new schools. The next was in Clause 11, describing how duties under the Elementary Education Acts were to be enforced by the Education Department, and that provided in terms, that if the local education authority did not fulfil its duties the Board of Education might, after holding a public 1309 inquiry, issue such orders as it thought necessary. The only other Clause under which a public inquiry was to be held was Clause 12, and under that they laid the provision that the Board of Education before approving any scheme should take measures for the purpose of giving publicity to the provisions of the proposed scheme, and might, if it thought fit, hold a public inquiry. Under Clause 9 public notice was to be given in order to invest the ratepayers with the right of appeal to the Education Department, but here it was simply asked that notice should be given to the local authority. As to the inquiry to be allowed under Clauses 11 and 12, surely it that were necessary one was equally desirable under the provisions of the new Clause under discussion, a Clause which provided for the division of the income from an endowment, and the award of one portion to the managers and another to the local education authority. His experience was that the parish in which the endowment was situated and for which it had been bequeathed was intensely interested in the question of its administration. But under the proposal of the Government the parish was entirely ignored—the only parties taken cognisance of were the managers of the voluntary schools and the local education authority, Surely it was not unreasonable to ask that the people chiefly and mainly interested should have an opportunity of laying their views before the Board of Education, and surely if a public inquiry were necessary before a scheme was approved, it was equally necessary before the division was made. The scheme might be altered or revoked by the express terms of the Bill, but once the endowment was divided the decision was final. Under the circumstances he submitted that the Amendment of his hon. friend was perfectly sound from the point of view of the necessity of holding a public inquiry, and public notice ought to be given in order that the views of those who were interested should be properly placed before the Board of Education. He hoped that the Government would accept the Amendment and that it would be extended so as to provide for public notice as well as public inquiry, so as to afford an opportunity either to the Parish 1310 Council or the Rural District Council to lay their views—without unnecessary ex! pense—before the Board of Education prior to its making a division of the endowment.
§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN (Kent, Tunbridge)said the Amendment was not one involving a sectarian question, but it dealt with the question of the best way of dividing the endowment. Looking at it from a practical point of view, he regarded the Amendment not only as unnecessary, but as absolutely mischievous. There was a vast number of these endowments, although the aggregate incomes did not exceed £160,000 annually, and in a great many eases there would have to be a revision. He was very glad that it was the Board of Education, and not the Charity Commissioners, that was to undertake this work. The labour would be immense and a great deal of local friction would be raised, and if in addition a local inquiry were compulsory in every case there would be unending work, an enormous staff would be required, and many years would elapse before the inquiries were settled. It was perfectly unnecessary, because, by the general law affecting charitable trusts, the Charity Commissioners were empowered to order an inquiry whenever they liked into the administration of a trust. These powers had been transferred by an Order in Council from the Charity Commissioners to the Board of Education, and consequently in every single case they could order an inquiry if they thought there was any reason for so doing. Was not that quite sufficient to meet the case put by the hon. Member opposite? The inquiries in most eases were perfectly unnecessary, because all that could be necessary would be to construe documents. In the majority of the eases all the necessary information was ready to hand, and it was only necessary to apply common sense to the task. It would be perfectly ridiculous to go to the expense of sending a special commission to hold an inquiry on the spot. Under the Local Government Act of 1894, the Charity Commissioners were made the arbiters of most difficult questions—such as what was or was not an ecclesiastical charity. That raised the religious difficulty in hundreds of parishes, but the Charity Commissioners dealt with all the eases as they came 1311 before them. They generally came to a decision on documents which were in their office, but where the trusts were doubtful they ordered an inquiry. If those powers sufficed in that case, surely they would be equally sufficient for the Board of Education in this instance. He wished to see this Clause worked in a practical spirit, and he therefore opposed the Amendment because he believed it would clog the wheels of the Department, which had to administer a most difficult piece of machinery.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he wished to explain that it was not the inquiry, but its proposed compulsory character, that he objected to. If the inquiry were made dependent on the demand of the local education authority he should be prepared to accept that and to move an Amendment to carry it out.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he should be quite prepared to accept an Amendment in the form that an inquiry should be granted if requested or demanded by the local education authority.
§ MR. BRYCEwas very glad the hon. Baronet had accepted the Amendment. He thought the Secretary to the Board of Education would find that this proposal would give satisfaction to all concerned.
§ SIR FRANCIS POWELLasked at whose cost the inquiry was to be held.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEThe local education authority.
§ MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)said that, if the Government put in the words suggested, they should also allow an inquiry on the demand of trustees. He might mention the case of the Harpar Trust at Bedford. Under a scheme made in 1873, certain sums were set aside for the purposes of a public elementary school and certain schools were carried on by the Governors of the Trust, who, of course, received education grants in the usual way. The question was, what would happen to their endowments f Their schools would come under the provisions of the Bill, and if any question should arise as to a division of the two-elevenths of the Trust income, surely the trustees should have a right to demand an inquiry.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSIf a public inquiry is held, the trustees will necessarily be parties to the inquiry.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he should have no objection to include trustees, though he would point out that it would not be fair that trustees should be allowed to call for inquiries of this sort when the expense fell on the local authority. That body was not likely to incur heavy expense by demanding wholesale unnecessary inquiries.
§ MR. BOUSFIELDI shall be content if my hon. friend will promise to consider this point.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the trustees would certainly have full notice of any inquiry which was to take place under the Clause, and they would also have complete access to the Board of Education. In these circumstances, he thought the interests of trustees would be adequately protected. He thought that the costs of the inquiry should be borne by the authority demanding it, and that should be the only condition on which a public inquiry would be held.
§ MR. JOHNSTONE (Sussex, Horsham)complained that as the Amendment did not appear on the Paper it was very difficult to understand what they were discussing. He gathered that the Government was willing to agree that the local authority should have power to demand a public inquiry, and he thought the proposal of the Secretary to the Board of Education a very unsatisfactory solution of a difficult problem. It had been pointed out in the lucid and closely-reasoned speech of the hon. Member for Glamorgan that there was first the objection that the Secretary to the Board of Education might not be well fitted, either by education or practice, for construing legal documents. But it seemed to be forgotten that he would always have at his service the highest legal acumen of the country, and would be able to consult not only the legal advisers of the Department but also the Law Officers of the Crown. Again, it should be remembered that a considerable number of deeds would be in the same form, and one decision would govern many 1313 cases. If they left it to the discretion of the local education authority they would be continually liable to have pressure brought to hear upon them from without. Although there might really be no doubt of the result the local authority might consider it a duty to ask for an inquiry. It was absolutely unnecessary to put this temptation in the way of a local authority. It would be a temptation difficult to resist, and very often these matters would be brought forward by representatives keenly interested at the time, but wholly unable to distinguish between the construction of a legal document and the sympathy men in public life had for the wishes of those by whose votes they are supported. These matters could be dealt with readily enough by a gentleman of legal training, and if they were left to the discretion of the Board of Education there would be reasonable prospect of finality. If they were left to the discretion of a number of newly-constituted authorities, new brooms anxious to sweep clean and justify their existence, he saw no end to the prospect of inquiries of this kind throughout the country. On the mere ground of burdening the country with inquiries he hoped the Government would pause before they accepted any such suggestion as that which had been made. Where the public interest demanded an inquiry he had not the slightest doubt that one would be ordered without hesitation, and upon that ground he hoped the Government would think twice before they rashly committed themselves to an Amendment which was not on the Paper, and which might introduce far greater confusion and difficulty than was contemplated at the present moment.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he understood that the words he proposed had been accepted by the Government. The only other suggestion was that he thought notice should also be given to the trustees of any inquiry, and he would suggest that words to this end should be inserted.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsuggested the following form of words:—
But if a local inquiry be demanded by the local education authority the decision of the 1314 Board of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days' previous notice shall be given to the trustees, the local education authority and the minor authority, shall have been held by the Board of Education.
§ SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he wished to ask a question in regard to the cost of these inquiries. He had heard no reference to costs in this discussion. He thought it ought to be made perfectly clear that the local authority demanding the inquiry should pay the costs. He hoped his hon. friend, if he pressed this Amendment, would insert words providing for the payment of the costs by the local authority, because some of the charities which would be affected were very limited in their means.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed—
In line 11, after the ward 'education,' to insert the words 'but if a local inquiry is demanded by the local education authority the decision of the Board of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days, previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local author to the trustees, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEpointed out that by this Amendment they would be in the same position in regard to these inquiries as any other Departmental inquiry by the Board of Trade or the Local Government Board. If they stuck in the word "costs" it had an ominous sound for the lawyers, but if they left it as it was left in the case of any other Departmental inquiries it simply meant that an inspector would be sent down and the costs would only amount to his travelling expenses.
§ MR. BOUSFIELDsaid he should like some one who had had Departmental experience to state his views upon this question. He urged that a proviso should be inserted in the Bill imposing the cost of the inquiry on the local authorities demanding it, or they might leave the matter in the hands of the Board of Education. He did not desire to press the matter now, but he should like the Government to give the question further consideration.
§ SIR JOHN GUEST (Cambridge University)thought that they ought to have this point properly sealed before the words suggested were inserted in the Bill. The whole argument of hon. Gentlemen opposite had been that there would be a check upon the demand for inquiries made by the local authority because they would have to pay the costs. When the Government conceded that point it was suddenly discovered that there was no provision made for making the local authority pay the costs. He moved to add the words "at the cost of the local authority."
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
After the last word 'education,' to insert the words 'at the cost of the local education authority.'"—(Sir John Gorst.)
§ Question proposed. "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
§ MR. WHITLEYsaid it would be best to put the Amendment, on which they were all agreed.
§ SIR JOHN GUESTOh, no! we are not at all agreed.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought there ought to be some power in regard to costs vested in the Board of Education similar to that vested in Government Departments in regard to inquiries. He preferred the word "expenses" to "costs."
§ SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the words he proposed were "at the cost of the local education authority." He did not mind the word "expenses."
§ MR. BRYCEpointed out that in another part of the Bill where inquiries were provided for no reference was made to costs all. Speaking from recollection, he did not think that in the various Statutes which directed or empowered inquiries anything was said about the cost and the question was generally left to the discretion of the Department concerned.
§ SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the reason he moved his Amendment was that it was urged by hon. Gentlemen opposite that there was no danger in giving this power of forcing an inquiry provided that it was restrained by the knowledge that if a local authority did force an inquiry they would have to pay the costs. Now when he proposed an Amendment carrying out what every hon. Member opposite had urged they objected to the insertion of these words. No doubt the words of the Amendment which had been accepted would be revised by the Attorney General, and they could be altered on Report.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEquoted from, the Local Government Act, showing that the question of costs in regard to these inquiries was a purely discretionary order. He did not think it was fair that the cost should be imposed upon the local education authority in all cases, because an inquiry would be an expensive matter for them in any event. He thought they ought to consent to a discretionary order to impose costs against any of the parties in the usual form. The words proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Cambridge University were not discretionary but mandatory, and under his Amendment the Board of Education would be compelled to impose the costs upon the local education authority. He thought the Board of Education should have the same power in this matter as any other Government Department.
§ SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that as the First Lord of the Treasury had just returned to the Treasury Bench he would briefly repeat the grounds for proposing his Amendment. The Government proposed that the Board of Education might order a public inquiry into the question of the separation of the trust in order that they might be able to devote a part to maintenance and to future repairs. A proposal was made by hon. Members opposite that in case the local education authority so wished, it ought to be permitted to demand an inquiry, and the argument used by hon. Members opposite was that as the local authority would be willing to pay the costs there would be a perfect safeguard that no unnecessary inquiries would be demanded. When that was agreed to by his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education, who suggested an Amendment to carry out that view, he proposed to add a few words to ensure that where the local education authority forced the Board of Education to institute an inquiry it should pay the costs, and such inquiries should be held at the expense of the local education authority demanding the inquiry. Then an objection to this was raised by hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that what they were most concerned about was that under no circumstances should the authority bear the cost. He thought they might very well leave the question to the discretion of the Board of Education, because the Amendment suggested by his right hon. friend would create a good deal of unnecessary machinery.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was surprised at the zeal displayed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University for putting the costs on the local education authority.
§ SIR JOHN GORSTreplied that, as the hon. Member opposite had not been present during the whole of this discussion, he was afraid he did not know what had happened. The whole argument of hon. Gentlemen opposite had 1318 been that there was no danger in allowing the local education authority to force an unnecessary inquiry because it would be restrained by reason of having to pay the costs.
§ DR. MACNAMARAreminded the right hon. Gentleman that he had been present during the whole of the discussion. If no reference was made in Clause l2 to expenses, why should they introduce that matter here? He agreed with the suggestion of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education, but if they introduced the words proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, or any other phrase of that kind, they would mulct the local authority in a very large sum of money.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSsuggested to the Government that the proper way of dealing with the matter was to leave the Clause without any reference to the costs at all, and, if on consideration before the Report stage, they thought that any provision should be made in regard to costs, they should make it a. general provision, such as was proposed by his hon. friend. It should be a provision similar to that contained in the Public Health Act. What was proposed here was to insert a reference to costs in respect of one sort of public inquiry, whereas there were two other sorts of Public inquiries provided for in the Bill and in respect of which there was no reference to costs at all. There ought to be a general provision about costs, which would apply to all forms of public inquiry which might be held under the powers conferred by the Bill.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,) Inverness Burghssaid he was in the House when the right hon. Gentleman the member for South Aberdeen made the suggestion that if the local education authority asked for an inquiry they should have it, and that they should bear the costs. He believed that in nine cases out of ten where question arose no local would be necessary at all. If the local education authority desired an inquiry, they ought 1319 to say that they were ready to bear the costs, and that would afford a sort of test whether there was any substantial reason to suppose that the people of the locality were of opinion that an inquiry should be held.
§ MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montgomeryshire)said he could not think of any easier way of choking off a real grievance than by telling the local education authority that they might be liable for some indefinite amount for costs. He knew a case where a parish was anxious to have an inquiry into the administration of a certain charity, and, on being asked to hold an inquiry, the Board of Education assented on condition that security was given for the costs. When the Board was asked what the costs were likely to be, no satisfactory answer could be obtained. For that reason he thought it would be most impolitic to impose on the locality the burden of paying the costs in all cases. He should be quite willing to accede to the proposal that the awarding of costs should be in the discretion of the Department.
§ said on this matter. He wished to call attention to the fact that if the Committee passed any such provision here, doubt would be cast on the question of costs under Clause 11, which gave power to the Board of Education to hold an inquiry where the local education authority failed to perform their duty. He should have thought that the simplest course for settling this matter would have been to accept the suggestion of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the suggestion made from this side of the House was a perfectly practical one, and it was in accordance with the precedents in regard to inquiries ordered by the Local Government Board and the Board of Trade. These Departments had discretion to impose costs in connection with local inquiries, and what was wanted was that similar discretion should be given to the Board of Education.
§ (10.3) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 549.)
1321| AYES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Butcher, John George | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Doxford, Sir William Theodore |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Chapman, Edward | Farbell, Sir T. George |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Charrington, Spencer | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward |
| Balcarres, Lord | Clare, Octavins Leigh. | Finch, George H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Fison, Frederick William |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- |
| Bignold, Arthur | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon |
| Bigwood, James | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Forster, Henry William |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cranbarne, Viscount | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Bond, Edward | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Gardner, Ernest |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Garfit, William |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Denny, Colonel | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower-Hamlets | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Dickson, Charles Scott | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Dighby, John K. D. Wingfield | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS. Edm'nds |
| Bull, William James | Doughty, George | Grenfell, William Henry |
| Gretton, John | Milvain, Thomas | Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight |
| Groves, James Grimble | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Morrell, George Herbert | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham Bute | Spear, John Ward |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Helder, Augustus | Myers, William Henry | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Henderson, Sir Alexander | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Stock, James Henry |
| Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Nicholson, William Graham | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Parkes, Ebenezer | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pemberton, John S. G. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Percy, Earl | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Tully, Jasper |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Plummer, Walter R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Jefferys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Johnstone, Heywood | Pretyman, Ernest George | Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H. |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Purvis, Robert | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Pym, C. Guy | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Lawson, John Grant | Randles, John S. | Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne |
| Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham | Rankin, Sir, James | William, Colonel Rt. (Dorset) |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Remnant, James Farquharson | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Ridley, Hn. M. W (Stalybridge | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Loden, Gerald Walter Erskine | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Wylic, Alexander |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Round, Rt. Hon. James | |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Royds, Clement Molyneux | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hayne, Rt Hon. Charles Seale- | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Allen, Charles P (Gone, Stroud | Helme, Norval Watson | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Runciman, Walter |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Holland, Sir William Henry | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Horniman, Frederick John | Shackleton, David James |
| Bell, Richard | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Langley, Batty | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Brigg, John | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Brown, George, M. (Edinburgh | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Nothants |
| Burns, John | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Burt, Thomas | Legg, Sir John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Cawley, Frederick | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | M'Kenna, Reginald | Weir, James Galloway |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan | Markham, Arthur Basil | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Moss, Samuel | Whiteley, George (York, W. R. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Newnes, Sir George | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
| Edwards, Frank | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Paulton, James Mellor | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Grant, Corrie | Price, Robert John | |
| Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury) | Rea, Russell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick) | Reckitt, Harold James | Mr. Lloyd-George and |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Rickett, J. Compton | Mr. Samuel Evans. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rigg, Richard |
§ Word, as amended, inserted.
MR. KENNAsaid that in drafting the Amendment he now moved, he had followed the precedent set by the Government in Clause 10 of the Bill, where it was laid down that the Board of Education should have regard to certain main principles. He proposed now that the Board of Education, in deciding any difference, should be guided by the financial interests of the two bodies in a particular school. He could not conceive a more equitable principle than that to guide the Board of Education in cases where no guidance was given them by the trust as to the disposition of the endowment. Surely it would be more reasonable that the Board of Education should determine the amount or cost which the local authority had to bear relating to the school, and, on the other hand, the amount that fell on the managers for keeping the buildings in repair. In that way substantial justice would be done as between the two parties. It must be remembered that whatever was given to the education authority was really not diverted from the purposes of the trust, for it would come back again; but whatever was given to the managers would really be lost for the general purposes of the endowment, and would only go in the relief of subscribers to the voluntary schools. He submitted that, as the Board of Education must have some guiding principle in determining the proportion that was to go to each of the parties to the dispute, the only right line on which that proportion should be determined was the proportion of cost the two parties would have to bear in the maintenance of the school.
§
Amendment proposed—
After the words last inserted, to insert the words, 'in determining any difference under this section, the Board of Education shall have regard to the proportion in which the whole cost of the school is met out of funds provided by the local education authority and the foundation managers respectively.'"—(Mr. M'Kenna.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he thought that the line which the hon. Member wished to give to the inquiry to be conducted by the Board of Education was hardly relevant to the subject of the Clause and of the inquiry which was to be directed by the Board of Education. Inquiry as to what was the origin of the trust and the original intention of the donor would be necessary, though sometimes difficult, but an inquiry into the respective needs of the claimants was irrelevant. What the hon. Member proposed to put before the Board of Education would be very much as if a judge were instructed to inquire which of two litigants wanted the money most. The inquiry should be which of the parties was entitled to the money, and not which of the two was the hungrier for the endowment. The Government could not accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. SAMUEL EVANSsaid if the sole inquiry was as to which of the two parties was the hungrier, he thought that there could be no doubt at all that the Church would be found to be the hungrier. Wherever booty was to be obtained, the Church party was after it: they were the disciples of the loaves and the fishes, and of the person who kept the purse. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh."] These observations, however, were not very relevant to the Amendment, but they had been called forth by the remarks of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The question before the Committee was whether or not there should be any guiding principle at all to the Board of Education. The hon. Baronet said that that was very like going before a judge and asking him to decide which of the party would like to have the booty; but wherever a question in regard to money arose before a judge, what he had to direct his mind to was, who, according to the law, was entitled to the money? But there was no material in the trust deed to guide the Board of Education, and the very reason why the Amendment was necessary was, that in the absence of any provision in the trust deed, there ought to be some basis by which the Board, in their judgment, determined that one of the Party should 1325 get a tenth and the other nine-tenths, and on what ground. He did not know whether his hon. friend's method was the best one, but it seemed equitable.
§ MR. BOUSFIELDsaid that the hon. Gentleman had declared that he was in favour of some principle—he did not care what it was.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he accepted the principle in the Amendment if the hon. Gentleman could not propose a better.
MR. BOUSEIELDsaid they might as well suppose that the Board of Education would decide a dispute by a toss-up. It should be remembered that the circumstances of endowments and localities were infinitely various. He knew of various cases in which such an Amendment would operate with great injustice.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that after all some principle would be better than no principle at all. It had been said that the Board of Education should have
§ a free hand, but there was an exact precedent for this Amendment in an Amendment introduced by the Prime Minister in regard to the election of managers. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment set forth: "In making an Order under this Section with regard to any school, the Board of Education should have regard to the principles on which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past." The Board of Education was to have regard to particular circumstances, and that was all that was asked in his hon. friend's Amendment. He submitted that the Board of Education was not to be allowed a free hand. He must say that under the last Vice-President of the Committee of Council he had no confidence in it at all. It might not be much to give the Board of Education a guiding principle, or guiding hand, but, at any rate, it would embarrass them to depart from it.
§ (10.33.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 203. (Division List No. 550.)
1329| Weir, James Galloway | Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. |
| White, Luke (York, E.R.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Ellis Griffith. |
| Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.) | Yoxall, James Henry | |
| Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Finch, George H. | Milvain, Thomas |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fisher, William Hayes | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott |
| Arrol, Sir William | Fison, Frederick William | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Rt Hn. A .Graham (Bute |
| Balcarres, Lord | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r | Gardner, Ernest | Myers, William Henry |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Garfit, William | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds | Gibbs, Hon. H. A. G. (City of Lond | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bigwood, James | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Bond, Edward | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Percy, Earl |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS, Edm'nds | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Grenfell, William Henry | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Gretton, John | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Groves, James Grimble | Purvis, Robert |
| Bull, William James | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Butcher, John George | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Randles, John S. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Clavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ridley, Hn.M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Chapman, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E. | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Johnstone, Heywood | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Denny, Colonel | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh) | Spear, John Ward |
| Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph, Cockfield | Lawson, John Grant | Stock, James Henry |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Talbot, Rt Hn JG (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Doughty, George | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Donglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowe, Francis William | Tully, Jasper |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Valentia, Viscount |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Warde, Colonel C, E. |
| Webb, Colonel William George | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) | |
| Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) | Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wylie, Alexander | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
§ MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid he would not move the Amendment standing in his name, in order to afford an opportunity for the discussion of the important Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Somerset.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)said that his Amendment dealt with a practical point in the Clause. Its object was to provide a proper way of dealing with those endowments which were too large to be devoted to the rates in the rough-and-ready manner proposed by the Clause. Those acquainted with the different endowments would agree that there were deeds of a varied and complex character which could not well be dealt with in such a very summary fashion as was proposed in sub-Section 2. In some cases those endowments were of a very considerable size. Among the list of such endowments which he had there was one in Hampshire of the value of £183 a year. He had examined the accounts of the school and he found that the amount spent on repairs last year was £28, more than £100 on salaries, and £33 on furnishing. The latter items would in future fall on the local authority. It was obvious that there must be a large proportion of the endowment which could not be dealt with by the managers. In that school there were only 42 children, though there was accommodation for 70. Supposing a repair fund of £20 or £30 a year was set aside, there would be a sum of £150 a 1330 year to be dealt with under sub-Section 2. In this parish a threepenny rate produced only£20 a year, and therefore £150 would be equivalent to something approaching a two shilling rate. The effect of sub-Section 2 would be to devote to the rates a larger amount than the new burden of the rates was likely to amount to, and they would be giving a considerable benefit to the ratepayers after discharging all the new liabilities which fell upon them under the Bill. Some people imagined that a charity for the relief of the poor ought to go to the ratepayers, but that he believed to be a fallacy. The poor of a parish might be ratepayers, but as a rule they were not; and in most cases the poor were much more numerous than the ratepayers. A provision like this, which said that educational endowments should be devoted to the aid of the rates, was neither consistent with equity nor with the principles on which charities had been administered for many years in this country. The County Council would have no statutory power to apply to the Board of Education for a new scheme unless words like his were inserted. The object of the words was to enable the County Council in places such as he had indicated to apply to the Board of Education to confirm a scheme under which the money might go not entirely in aid of rates, but the surplus might be devoted to those various educational purposes which might benefit the inhabitants of the parish. None of them wished to take the money away from the parish, but they all wished to see that the money 1331 was not wasted, and not devoted to a class which the founder did not intend to benefit. It could not be right to give a bonus to the ratepayers out of money intended for educational endowments. To the objection that the trustees might themselves apply, he replied that the trustees might have no interest to apply. Their interest might be adverse, they might be the largest ratepayers in the parish, and trustees were but human. The local authority, on the other hand, would have the interest and the duty to apply, and they were the body that ought to have the right of going to an impartial authority like the Board of Education and asking for a scheme. The Board of Education would have to consult the Parish Council under the Local Government Act; and, therefore, the voice of the parish would be heard; the voice of the local education authority would be heard; and the matter would be decided by the Board of Education.
§
Amendment proposed—
In line 14, at end, to insert the words 'to the parish or parishes served by the school, and shall, unless otherwise applied in pursuance of a scheme made by the Board of Education on the application of the County Council, be applied.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the object of the right hon. Gentleman was one with which the Government and the House would entirely sympathise, but he did not think this Amendment carried the object into effect. The effect of the Amendment would be to seize on a 1332 portion of the endowment on its way from the trustees to the local education authority and the overseers; and to turn it to some purpose such as his right hon. friend had described. He agreed that provision should be made whereby persons interested, namely the parishioners, in the matter should be consulted, but anyhow the objection which the Government felt to the Amendment was that it dealt with only a portion of the endowments and not with the endowments as a whole. It was possible where an endowment was over £100 for the Board of Education to take the initiative, and deal with it by a scheme; and in the case of an endowment under £100, the governors or trustees could take the matter up; but to take only a portion of the endowment, and deal with it by means of a scheme which seemed to him to be a piecemeal method of dealing with a large subject, was not only not satisfactory but would tend to frustrate any subsequent scheme that might be put forward for dealing with endowments as a whole. For those reasons the Government could not accept the Amendment.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid he profoundly regretted the pronouncement just made on behalf of the Government. Last night they had pointed out—and it was not seriously contested by hon. Members opposite—that the proposal to apply these educational charities to relieve the subscribers or the ratepayers was to do violence to the intention of the founders, and to sanction a breach of trust on the part of the House of Commons. Tonight he was more than ever grieved that the hon. Gentleman representing the Government proposed to prevent this money, which might do such 1333 inestimable good to the poorest classes in the rural districts, being applied to help elementary children to receive the tincture of secondary education, and to take the money and apply it to the relief of well-to-do people. Nothing could be more regrettable in the whole course of the Bill. It marked the abandonment of an admirable opportunity of permanently helping the people. In order to put on record the serious view which the Opposition took of this matter, he would move an Amendment on behalf of his hon. friend, the Member for Poplar to strengthen the Amendment by inserting words to make it general in its application. He had no time to do more.
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
To leave out the words 'unless otherwise' and insert the word 'be'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
1334§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he thought the Committee was entitled, if only out of mere courtesy, to an expression of opinion from the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill regarding the Amendment of his right hon. friend. There was plenty of time to enable the hon. Gentleman to say whether he accepted it or not. As the hon. Gentleman would not reply, he would support the Amendment of his right hon. friend; and give a few reasons for doing so.
It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded forthwith to put the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair and on the New Clauses proposed by the Government.
§ (11.1) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 203; Noes, 97. (Division List No. 551.)
1337| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Furness, Sir Christopher | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Allen, (Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Grant, Corrie | Price, Robert John |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Priestley, Arthur |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rea, Russell |
| Bell, Richard | Harmsworth, L. Leicester | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Rickett J. Compton |
| Brigg, John | Helme, Norval Watson | Rigg, Richard |
| Brown, George M (Edinburgh) | Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Holland, Sir William Henry | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Burns, John | Horniman, Frederick John | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kearley, Hudson E. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Caldwell, James | Langley, Batty | Runciman, Walter |
| Cameron, Robert | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Samuel, Hebert L. (Cleveland |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Shackleton, David James |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Leng, Sir John | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lewis, John Herbert | Shipman Dr. John G. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lough, Thomas | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Tennant, Harold John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Moss, Samuel | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Edwards, Frank | Newnes, Sir George | Thomas, David Alfrod (Merthyr |
| Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Norton, Capt. Cecil Williams | Thomas, F. Freeman-Hastings |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Partington, Oswald | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Weir, James Galloway | Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. |
| White, Luke (York, E.R.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Ellis Griffith. |
| Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.) | Yoxall, James Henry | |
| Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Finch, George H. | Milvain, Thomas |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fisher, William Hayes | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott |
| Arrol, Sir William | Fison, Frederick William | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Rt Hn. A .Graham (Bute |
| Balcarres, Lord | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r | Gardner, Ernest | Myers, William Henry |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Garfit, William | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds | Gibbs, Hon. H. A. G. (City of Lond | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bigwood, James | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Bond, Edward | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Percy, Earl |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS, Edm'nds | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Grenfell, William Henry | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Gretton, John | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Groves, James Grimble | Purvis, Robert |
| Bull, William James | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Butcher, John George | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Randles, John S. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Clavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ridley, Hn.M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Chapman, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E. | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Johnstone, Heywood | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Denny, Colonel | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh) | Spear, John Ward |
| Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph, Cockfield | Lawson, John Grant | Stock, James Henry |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Talbot, Rt Hn JG (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Doughty, George | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Donglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowe, Francis William | Tully, Jasper |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Valentia, Viscount |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Warde, Colonel C, E. |
| Webb, Colonel William George | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) | |
| Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) | Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wylie, Alexander | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Beckett, Ernest William | Clare, Octavius Leigh |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Beresford, Lord Chas. William | Clive, Captain Percy A. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bignold, Arthur | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Bigwood, James | Cohen, Benjamin Louis |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Bousfield, William Robert | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Arrol, Sir William | Brotherton, Edward Allen | Cubitt, Hon. Henry |
| Atkinson, Et. Hon. John | Brymer, William Ernest | Dalrymple, Sir Charles |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Bull, William James | Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Butcher, John George | Denny, Colonel |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc. | Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W, (Leeds | Chapman, Edward | Doughty, George |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Charrington, Spencer | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lawson, John Grant | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Finch, George H. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lockie, John | Sealy, Maj J.E.B (Isle of Wight |
| Fison, Frederick William | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Fitzerald, Sir Robert Penros- | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Smith, H C (Northm'b, Tyneside |
| Flower, Ernest | Lowe, Francis William | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Forster, Henry William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Spear, John Ward |
| Gardner, Ernest | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Garfit, William | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond. | Macdona, John Cumming | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Stock, James Henry |
| Gore, HnG R. C. Ormsby-(Salod | M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Majendie, James A. H. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim | Milvain, Thomas | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Valentia, Viscount |
| Grenfell, William Henry | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Gretton, John | Morrell, George Herbert | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Groves, James Grimble | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath | Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunt'n |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Myers, William Henry | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Nicholson, William Graham | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Parke, Ebenezer | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Helder, Augustus | Pemberton, John S. G. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath |
| Henderson, Sir Alexander | Percy, Earl | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Wylie, Alexander |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Plummer, Walter R. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm, Henry | Pretyman, Ernest George | |
| Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Purvis, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Randles, John S. | Mr. Henry Hobhouse and |
| Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. | Rankin, Sir James | Mr. Bond. |
| Johnstone, Heywood | Remnant, James Farquharson | |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Furness, Sir Christopher |
| Allan, Sir -William (Gateshead | Causton, Richard Knight | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Cawley, Frederick | Grant, Corrie |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Channing, Francis Allston | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Cremer, William Randal | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Bell, Richard | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Brigg, John | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Edwards, Frank | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Burt, Thomas | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Caldwell, James | Fenwick, Charles | Lambert, George |
| Cameron, Robert | Fuller, J. M. F. | Langley, Batty |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Priestley, Arthur | Tennant, Harold John |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rea, Russell | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Leng, Sir John | Reekitt, Harold James | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rickett, J. Compton | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Lough, Thomas | Rigg, Richard | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Robson, William Snowdon | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Runciman, Walter | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) |
| Moss, Samuel | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Newnes, Sir George | Schwann, Charles E. | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Norman, Henry | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Shackleton, David James | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Partington, Oswald | Shipman, Dr. John G. | |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | |
| Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Soares, Ernest J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Philipps, John Wynford | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and |
| Price, Robert John | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe | Mr. William M'Arthur. |
§ (11.13) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
1338§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 552.)
1339| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Furness, Sir Christopher | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Partington, Oswald |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Grant, Corrie | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Gray, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick | Price, Robert John |
| Bell, Richard | Griffith, Ellis J. | Priestley, Arthur |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rea, Russell |
| Brigg, John | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rickett J. Compton |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Rigg, Richard |
| Burt, Thomas | Helme, Norval Watson | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Butcher, John George | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Cardwell, James | Holland, Sir William Henry | Runciman, Walter |
| Cameron, Robert | Horniman, Frederick John | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh |
| Cawley, Frederick | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shackleton, David James |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lambert, George | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Langley, Batty | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Long, Sir John | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R(Northants |
| Davies, M. Vaugham-(Cardigan | Lewis, John Herbert | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Denny, Colonel | Lough, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Doughty, George | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R |
| Edwards, Frank | Markham, Arthur Basil | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Moss, Samuel | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Newnes, Sir George | White, Luke (York, E. R |
| Foster, sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Norman, Henry | Whiteley, George (York, W.R |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. | Yoxall, James Henry | Mr. Henry Hobhouse and |
| Mr. Bond. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lond | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Allhusen Angustus Henry Eden | Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Percy, Earl |
| Arrol, Sir William | Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Grenfell, William Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Gretton, John | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Groves, James Grimble | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Purvis, Robert |
| Balcarres, Lord | Halsey Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Randles, John S. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Rankin, Sir James |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Ritchie, Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Beresford, Lord Charles William | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Robertson. Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bigwood, James | Heath, Arthur Howar (Hanley | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Helder, Augustus | Roper, Colonel Robert |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Henderson, Sir Alexander | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Higginbottom, S. W. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Maryelbone, W.) |
| Bull, William James | Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil | Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Johnstone, Heywood | Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside |
| Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A(Worc | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop. | Spear, John Ward |
| Chapman, Edward | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Carrington, Spencer | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Law Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lawson, John Grant | Stock, James Henry |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M. |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lockie, John | Tully, Jasper |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Rigby, John K. D. Wingfield | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Lowe, Francis William | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Willam H |
| Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. E (Taunton |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Macdona, John Cumming | Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Majendie, James A. H. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Manners, Lord Cecil | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Milvain, Thomas | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Finch, George H. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart- |
| Fisher, William-Hayes | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wylie, Alexander |
| Fison, Frederick William | More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| FitzGerold, Sir Robert Penrose | Morrell, George Herbert | |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | |
| Flower, Ernest | Murray Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Forster, Henry William | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Myers, William Henry | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | |
| Garfit, William | Nicholson, William Graham |
§ (11.23) Question put "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
1342§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212; Noes, 95. (Division list. No. 553.)
1343| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Allhusen Angustus Henry Eden | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lockie, John |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Finch, George H. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowe, Francis William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fisher, William-Hayes | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fison, Frederick William | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | FitzGerold, Sir Robert Penrose | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Flower, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r | Galloway, William Johnson | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Gardner, Ernest | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Garfit, William | Milvain, Thomas |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lond. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles William | Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc. | More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire |
| Bigwood, James | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Bond, Edward | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Myers, William Henry |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Grenfell, William Henry | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Gretton, John | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Groves, James Grimble | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bull, William James | Halsey Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Butcher, John George | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Percy, Earl |
| Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A(Worc | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Chapman, Edward | Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Charrington, Spencer | Helder, Augustus | Purvis, Robert |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Henderson, Sir Alexander | |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Randles, John S. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. | Higginbottom, S. W. | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Roper, Colonel Robert |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Denny, Colonel | Johnstone, Heywood | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Rigby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop. | Scott, Sir S. (Marvlelbone, W.) |
| Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dix'n | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Seely, Maj J.E.B. (Isle of Wight |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Shaw-Srewart. M. H. (Renfrew |
| Doughty, George | Law Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lawson, John Grant | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Smith, HC (North'mb).Tyneside |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Spear, John Ward | ||
| Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Walker, Col. William Hall | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R (Bath |
| Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Stock, James Henry | Warde, Colonel C. E. | Wylie, Alexander |
| Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Webb, Colonel William George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. | Welby, Lt- Col. A. C. E(Taunton | |
| Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne | |
| Thornton, Percy M. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Tritton, Charles Ernest | Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Tuke, Sir John Batty | Willox, Sir John Archibald | |
| Valentia, Viscount | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham William (Rhondda) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Helme, Norval Walson | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Runciman, Walter |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Holland, Sir William Henry | Samuel, Herbert L. (C1eveland) |
| Bell, Richard | Horniman, Frederick John | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Kearley, Hudson E. | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Brigg, John | Langley, Batty | Shackleton, David James |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Burt, Thomas | Leng, Sir John | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cameron, Robert | Lough, Thomas | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Taylor Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Tennant, Harold John |
| Cawley, Frederick | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Charming, Francis Allston | Markham, Arthur Basil | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Cremer, William Randal | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Moss, Samuel. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.) |
| Davies, M. Vanghan-(Candigan | Newnes, Sir George | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Norman, Henry | Weir, James Galloway |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Edwards, Frank | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Luke (York, E. R) |
| Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Partington, Oswald | Whiteley, George, (York W.R.) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Paulton, James Mellor | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Philipps, John Wynford | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Price, Robert John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Priestley Arthur | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Rea, Russell | |
| Grant, Corrie | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Rickett, J. Compton | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rigg, Richard | Mr. William M'Arthur. |
§ New Clause (local authority's managers)—(Sir William Anson)—added.
§ New Clause (grouping of schools under one management)— (Sir William Anson)—added.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow