HC Deb 06 November 1902 vol 114 cc349-79

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[MR. JEFFRKYS (Hampshire, N.) in Chair.]

Clause 12:—

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 35, to leave out sub-Section (b).—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)

Question again proposed, "That the words 'for the' stand part of the Clause."

(9.55.) MR. MOSS (Denbighshire, E.)

said he supported the Amendment on various grounds, but mainly because the Section was vague and meaningless, and would, if it stood part of the Bill, lead to endless friction and dispute. The hon. Member for North West Ham had said that the Clause was very clear. It seemed to be clear in one respect only, and that was that the direct representatives of the ratepayers would be compelled, at the dictation of outside bodies, who were not described to accept for the educational committees gentlemen who were suggested by the outside bodies. The sub-Clause was a compulsory one. As he read it, it gave to the Council no option, because it said that the scheme "shall provide" for the appointment by the Council, on the nomination, where it appeared desirable, of other bodies, of persons of experience in education. He should like to know from the First Lord or the Attorney General who those other bodies were. For anything he know, when those words came to he interpreted they; might mean religious bodies. They had no guarantee now that the other bodies would not be religious or political bodies. He should like also to know what was meant by the "needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acts." Were they financial needs or the needs for larger accommodation for the scholars. It seemed to him that it was one of the vaguest of the many vague Clauses in a very vague Bill.


said it appeared to him that hon. Members opposite were trying either to misunderstand or to misrepresent this Clause. It was really very simple in its character, and it was designed to give the education authority the best advice it could get. He was never quite sure whether, when hon. Gentlemen opposite professed Clause, it was that they did not know or did not want to know what the Clause really meant. Generally speaking, the purpose of this Clause was not by any means to import sectarian influences or interests into the Education Committee or the local education authority, but to secure that every educational interest in the area was represented. The appointment in every case was by the Council. In certain cases the Council might think it desirable to invite certain educational bodies or societies within the area to nominate members. Such bodies, for example, as the governing body of the High School for Girls, the Ladies' Training College, or the local societies for the higher education of women might he suitable bodies to be invited to nominate persons to take their place on the Education Committee. These persons would be nominated by the societies invited, if they were willing to make a nomination, and it the persons so nominated would be appointed by the local education authority. It was hardly possible to conceive, when a County Council invited the governing bodies mentioned or others to nominate some one to represent their educational interests, that they would be guilty of the discourtesy of refusing to appoint them. Still, in the last resort, the County Council would have the right to say, "Your particular nominee is so wholly unsuitable, unclubbable, or un-educational, that we must ask you to nominate someone else or give it up."


asked for an explanation as to the position of the Board of Education in the matter.


said that of course the scheme would come before the Board of Education, and surely it was the business of the Board to have regard to any representation which might be mad to them by other bodies which thought they ought to have been invited to nominate representatives. Under those circumstances it would be the duty of the board of Education to inquire whether they should be represented, and if the Board thought them worthy of being represented, they would suggest to the local authority to consider whether they ought to be invited to nominate representatives. The local authority might say that those bodies were already adequately represented. Surely there was nothing improper of derogatory to the local education authority in saying that persons or bodies who were left out and thought themselves aggrieved should be able to state their case to the Board, that the board should be able to put their case to the local education authority, and that the matter should be discussed and finally arranged by conference between the board of Education and the local education authority. Unless hon. Gentlemen opposite supposed that the whole object of the Board of Education was in some way to put a slight on the local education authority, he could not conceive what complaint there could be against bringing the influence of the Board to bear on the subject. It would require all the good temper, ingenuity, and experience, both of the local education authority and the Board of Education, to get this Bill into working order. So much for the "other bodies." He hoped the term had been explained, and that the process of nomination had been explained, if not to the satisfaction, at any rate to the intelligence of hon. Gentleman opposite. Surely again it was no disparagement to the local education authority that they should be invited to look out for "persons of experiences in education" who might be within the area, and who might not be persons on the governing bodies or within the sphere of nomination of the societies he had named, but who would, nevertheless, be able to give valuable assistance to the Education Committee in the carrying out of its functions. Persons of experience were to be found in almost every area, and might very well be invited to course the scheme would come before take part in the work of the Education Committee. It would be the business of the local education authority to look out for such persons, and the Board of Education might he able to assist the local education authority in calling attention to such persons. Then there were the persons acquainted with the needs of the different kinds of schools. There were many persons interested in education, and especially the administrative part of it. It was desirable to have persons on the governing body who had taken part in the management of committees for technical instruction, and who should be asked to take part in the work of Education Committees. This was another type of the persons who should be invited by the local education authority; and tins Clause indicated the way in which substantial assistance could be given by all sorts of people outside the principal body, and who ought to be on its Education Committee. The object of Bill was to provide that the majority of Education Committee should be members of the County Council, but the County Council might not be able to produce the persons either representative of educational societies or of practical experience of education, or actively engaged in the management or government of schools. But this Clause reminded the local education authority that these were the persons whom it ought to place on its Education Committee; and the persons of this class would be of real assistance to the local education authority in the discharge of their functions. Whether they were the interests of particular sectarian schools, and he frankly admitted that sectarian interests might require to be taken into consideration, or whether they were the general interests of education he was confident that those interests would be loyally borne in mind, and the best help would be given to the local education authority which the Committee could give.


said he had listened to the very clear exposition by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, of what the functions of the Education Committee were to be. The more he had listened to the speech of the hon. Member the more confused he found the plan of the Government, and the greater the friction that was likely to arise. What was the definition of bodies He thought that if the Government had said "souls" it would have been appropriate, but it would be better, in his opinion, to have societies, which were not the same thing as bodies. "Educational bodies" could be understood, but he pictured the case of a dissatisfied body, rejected by the County Council, who went to the Education Department. The education authorities might propose, but the Education Department disposed, and the practical working of the Government plan was this, that the education authority might reject the bodies who desired to be invited, and then a reference was made to the Education Department whether or not a particular body ought to be invited. Therefore there would be three conflicting bodies—first of all, the education authority which did not invite the body that desired to be invited, and the Board of Education, to which the question was referred whether that body ought to be invited or riot. The hon. Member had very frankly said that these might be sectarian bodies. They knew very well what sectarian bodies were. If a sectarian body claimed to have seats on the committee, and the Education Department were appealed to, the Secretary might refuse to approve the scheme unless this sectarian body were represented on the committee. This would be an extremely disagreeable situation for the education authority to be placed in. The committee would have to be re-nominated every year, at all events every two or three years, and sectarian controversialists might he forced on the Education Committee. He could not conceive anything more disastrous to education that the rival claims of those bodies. Take the word "society." He did not know whether they would call a University a "society." He should hardly think that the representative of Oxford University would call it a society.


It is a learned body.


Is that so in a statutory sense?


A body-corporate.


Very well. Did tin t- propose to put a body corporate on the committee? They must come to some definition and form some idea as to what was to be the limitation of this Education Committee. They were throwing open to competition every form of society, or congregation, or sect to, come forward and make their claim to seats on this committee, and then, when the education authority wished to have none of them, they might appeal to the Education Department, and that Department might refuse to approve the scheme unless this sectarian body were represented on the committee. He was afraid be might be open to the charge of re-iteration, but he maintained that this was another illustration of the manner in which the Government failed to trust their education authorities to do that which, if they were sensible people, they would certainly do, if allowed to look after it, themselves. To impose upon them this bondage, with the accompanying disputes and turbulence which would be created by such a state of things, was most undesirable. It would be one of the things which would give these municipal bodies a distaste of having all these liabilities on their shoulders. It should be the endeavour of the Government to persuade these municipal bodies that their task was a comparatively light one. Why should they not suppose that these authorities would have the intelligence, without the directions which were proposed, to look out for so much or so little assistance as they thought they required? [Cries of "Divide."]

(10.25.) MR. WALTER PALMIER (Salisbury)

said he believed he was one of many on that side of the House who had refrained from taking any part in these discussions, for one very simple reason, viz., that they did not wish by talking to delay for one single minute the more rapid passing of this measure, but he thought that on this very vital point undue silence might be wrongly construed. Sub-Section (b), he maintained, was one of the most vital points in the Bill, because it raised the whole principle of co-optation. He thought it would have been more generous on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite if, instead of going into the minute details as be had done, he had plainly stated whether he was, or was not, in favour of co-optation.


said he would answer the question at once. He believed in co-optation at the discretion of the Council. Let the Council choose to get such assistance as they thought most appropriate.


said that there were one or two reasons why he thought it extremely necessary that they should adopt this extremely important principle of co-optation which underlay this sub-Section. In the remarks made hitherto the question of secondary education, which he considered the most important part of this measure, had been entirely lost sight of. He knew something of how the money under the Local Taxation Account Act of 1890 was distributed by the County Council, and he knew of instances in which a large proportion of the money was given to certain institutions. He could give one instance from the district with which he was particularly acquainted. In that district the sum of £1,600 was received from the local taxation account, and of that amount £1,100 was given to one institution of which he happened to be chair man. This institution was connected with the Municipal Council, and they expected to be represented on the Education Committee. He thought the distribution of this money might be taken as a criterion of the future action of the County Councils. It was of supreme importance that these various institutions should have a fair representation on the Education Committee, because, after all, the whole success of elementary education, as well as of secondary, depended upon the training of the teachers. Therefore, the bodies engaged in training teachers should be represented on the committee. He should like to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education that the word "nomination" was too strong, and might be modified to "representation." It was absolutely impossible to introduce any words which would limit the County Council from accepting nominations from religious or sectarian bodies. It was playing with the matter to talk of this sub-Section as vague and unmeaning, because it was one of the most important parts of the Bill, inasmuch as it introduced the principle of co-optation.


said that the Secretary to the Board of Education had made a very serious charge against that side of the House in alleging that they were attempting to misunderstand or misrepresent the Bill. Now, in regard to misunderstanding, it had taken the hon. Gentleman a quarter of an hour to say what this particular section meant, and he trusted that they, on that side of the House, might be forgiven if it took them a little time to understand it. The point between them was very simple. As the Bill now stood the committee must consist entirely of outsiders; there need not be a single member of the County Council on the committee; but it could not possibly consist entirely of insiders. All they asked was that it should be a genuine co-optation by the County Council. The Secretary to the Board of Education said that the appointment by the Council would be formal. If so, where would the real appointment come in?


said the appointment would be formal in the sense that as soon as the education authority invited a society to send a representative to the Education Committee, the circumstances would be most exceptional under which it would be necessary for the Council to refuse to accept the nomination.


said that it seemed to be not enough to trust the people, or to give them experts on the committee, but by this sub-Section they were to have representatives of different societies who would thus acquire a locus standi at the Board of Education. He submitted that under this scheme of the Government they would have interminable strife. He did not believe in tying the hands of the County Council behind its back. He would trust the County Council to select the best men under the circumstances. He would be satisfied with co-optation depending on the free will of the County Councils, but not a spurious co-optation.

MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)

said he asked the Secretary to the Education Department whether he would accept the word "representative" before "bodies" in the second line of the sub-Section? That would be much more satisfactory than having retired schoolmasters or retired military officers on the committee. "Representative bodies" would include representatives from friendly societies, trade unions, trades councils, and, as a counteraction to the head masters, they might also get representatives from the Poor Law Guardians, and the licensing authorities. (Cries of "Divide.") This was a very serious matter; surely he might make a suggestion. He did not wish to interfere with the progress of the Government; in fact he was coming to their help in this matter. It was a notorious fact that elementary education had been most successfully conducted in this country by persons who previous to School Board management, had had no experience in education. School Board schools were infinitely superior in every respect to those which had been managed by experts. In fact there had been an entire failure of the expert. The expert was usually a fraud, and a snare into the bargain. In 1898 the right hon. the Member for Cambridge University said that the educational-experienced person was generally an utter failure in elementary education.


I ant not conscious that I ever said that, or anything approaching that.


said that if the Committee would adjourn for a sufficient time to enable hint to go to the library to look up the quotation he would find it. (Cries of "Divide.") He wanted to point out to the Secretary to the Board of Education that popular education would be facilitated if representative public bodies were represented on the Committee.


said that if the right hon. Gentleman intended that the Council should ultimately have absolute discretion as regarded the denominational bodies to be invited-would he allow words to be introduced into the Clause to make that interpretation clear? In that case their objection would be met. He highly approved of the interpretation which the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Board of Education, had given, but he was sadly afraid that it was not an accurate interpretation, and that it would be possible, under the Clause as it stood, for a scheme to be framed, in the last resort, by the Board of Education, and that the County Council would be obliged to appoint whoever was nominated by the denominational bodies. It might be that the hon. Gentleman did not intend that, but he maintained that such a scheme would be legal if made by the Board of Education. The words were that the County Council should invite particular bodies to nominate persons to represent their interests; and then it was provided that the County Council "shall,"—not "may,"—appoint such persons. He did not say that the Board of Education would frame such a scheme, but he did say that they could frame such a scheme. If, however, the words "at the discretion of" were introduced they would show clearly that the interpretations given by the hon. Gentleman was correct.


said he would appeal to his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment.


said as he understood that it would be for the convenience of the Committee that the issue should be taken on a subsequent Amendment, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.


said, before the Amendment was withdrawn, it should be clearly understood that an opportunity would be given for discussing the point on another Amendment.


said there was nothing to preclude the discussion of the point on a later Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


said he proposed to move the words "selection and" before "appointment." The object of the Amendment was to make co-optation entirely a matter for the County Council. sub-Section (a) dealt with the selection and appointment by the Council of at least a majority of the Committee; and sub-Section (b) proposed to include persons who had experience of education, but who were not members of the Council. The Amendment he proposed, which followed the language of sub-Section (a), was that the selection should be entirely in the hands of the Council. If he understood rightly the sense of the Committee, it was that the Council should be the determining authority as to the persons to be co-opted, and that was his sole point in moving his Amendment. He did not think that there could be any serious doubt in the mind of any member of the Committee that that was the true principle to be established.

Amendment proposed:— In page 4, line 35, after the first word 'the' to insert the words selection and.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."


said it was quite impossible to accept the Amendment. He did not know if the hon. Gentleman quite realised its effect. He was about to have said on the last Amendment, in answer to an hon. Member who asked him whether the actual appointment would be by the Council, that he had no doubt whatever that the Council would appoint the person nominated. He had said over and over again that when the Council had invited some society to nominate a person, it would find very great difficulty in not accepting that nomination. But the Council would only select a body which it was desirable should be selected, and consequently would presumably be prepared to accept its nominee; but they could not ask that society to send them samples of its members. Take a case which was very familiar to himself. He had been a member of the Council of the University of Oxford for a number of years, and that Council was constantly asked to nominate a member of the governing body of some community; but it was never asked to send to the body which invited the nomination three or four names to select from. He thought that the Council of any University would decline to nominate at all under such conditions; and it would reduce this nomination by a society to a perfect farce if they were asked to send groups of names for the Municipal Council to make a selection from. The appointment would be with the Council, and the Council would have the choice of the bodies to be invited to nominate.


said he did not quite understand yet what was contemplated by the hon. Gentleman when he spoke of the Council having the right to invite these bodies. As he understood it, the Council would have no choice. The scheme would fix the bodies who were to nominate, and on their nomination the Council should appoint. For instance, a girls' training college might be entitled to nominate a person to serve on the committee. The Council would have no choice in the matter whatever, but must appoint the person nominated by the college. That was the meaning of the Clause, as he understood it. All the Council had to do was to go through the purely mechanical function of making the appointment on the nomination of another body. That was not a choice in any sense of the word.


said he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had overlooked the fact that these sub-Clauses were instructions for the composition of a scheme. The scheme would he the scheme of the Council, it would be made by the Council, and would be approved by the Board of Education. In making that scheme, the Council looked over its area, and selected certain bodies which it thought desirable to invite to nominate representatives on the Committee. Once these bodies were in the scheme, they would continue to make nominations in accordance with the scheme until it was altered, and the Council would appoint their nominees. Most distinctly, the choice of the society rested with the Council in the first instance. The nomination would rest with the bodies that would be invited, and the appointment would rest with the Council.


asked what would be the action of the Board of Education if the Council did not appoint anybody under this Section, or selected from bodies of which the Board did not approve.


said he regarded the Clause as one of the best that could be designed to secure the object of the framers of the Bill, namely, the co-ordination of all forms of education. He would take the case of the county borough with which he was best acquainted—that of West Ham. There, they had three institutions, one controlled by the Council itself, one by a great city company, and one by the directors of the Great Eastern Railway. Overlapping was almost inevitable; and it was obvious, if money was not to be wasted, and if good educational work were to be done, that these three institutions should be brought into line, and that, under the Bill, they should be represented oil the Education Committee. The proposal before the Committee was that the Council itself should pick out the persons to represent these institutions on the Education Committee. [AN HON. MEMBER: "No."] What was the meaning of the Amendment if it was not that?


said that the object of his Amendment was that the other bodies should be consulted, but that the Council should make its own selection.


said that in the illustration he had given earlier in the evening he said that the County Council of Hertford did exactly what the Bill proposed. It asked the teachers of the county to nominate two persons; and that was what the Bill proposed. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] It was only a question of explaining the King's English. The Bill proposed that the Council should set forth in its scheme the various bodies it proposed to invite to nominate representatives to serve on the Committee. He had seen the system in operation. The County Council of Hertford asked the teachers to nominate; they did nominate; and their nominees were appointed. That was the meaning of the Clause. Unless the societies were asked to make the nomination, how could they get fit and proper persons to represent them? If a great educational organisation were to be represented on the committee, it was absolutely essential that the person chosen should possess the confidence of his colleagues. How could that he guaranteed unless he were chosen by them? Take the great institutions to which he had referred, which were doing most excellent work, and which had fitted up some of the best laboratories in the East End. How could it be guaranteed that the persons selected to represent these institutions possessed the confidence of their colleagues, knew the character of the work that was being carried on, and would be able to co-ordinate that work with other work in the district, unless they were selected by the persons whom they were to represent? The whole object of the Clause was to give bodies of that description power to pick out from among their governors the hest fitted and most experienced person to represent them on the Committee, men who would know what money was needed, how it should be expended, what were the capabilities of their own organisation, and how much they could bring to the common purse in educational effort and hard cash, towards the co-ordination of every bit of educational work in their area. That was the object of the Clause, and he earnestly hoped that not merely the Government, but the Committee as a whole, would shut out from their minds the idea that the Clause was an attempt to bring in sectarian organisations. The scheme of the Bill was the scheme which for years past had been in operation in the great town of Zurich. Those who knew anything of the Swiss educational system would know that the scheme there was almost identical with the scheme of the Bill. Certain organisations within the town of Zurich were not merely invited, but were compelled, on given days, to select representatives; the names were submitted to the Town Council who appointed them; and the forces of the common-sense of the County Council, and the expert knowledge of the scientists selected, were brought together, with the result that the most democratic, probably the most socialistic, town in Europe, had one of the highest forms of education to be found on the Continent. It was time that we took a leaf out of the book of our Continental competitors, and, profiting by their experience, adopt a form of educational government which had done so much good for them, and which might be equally good for this country. He sincerely hoped that England would in future have a combination of common sense and expert knowledge to carry on the work of education; but he failed to see how it could he obtained except in the most praiseworthy scheme of the Bill.


said he did not think that the hon. Member who had just spoken quite apprehended the objections which had been raised to the Clause. Their objection was that the power of selection was not given to the Council.


said neither was it in Zurich.


said he relied on the reports of the Education Department. If the hon. Gentleman said that in Zurich the Town Council had no right to select the bodies who were to nominate he said the hon. Member was wrong. If the Swiss Federal Government said, ] "You have to select men to govern education in the town of Zurich from certain bodies we indicate," then the case would be analogous. All they asked for was that the great towns of England and Wales should have the same liberty that the hon. Gentleman approved of in Zurich. It was a great educational system in Zurich; but the hon. Member could not tolerate it in England and Wales. At any rate, let the hon. Member not quote Zurich, because Zurich was the Amendment of his hon. friend. Zurich selected its own bodies, but did the hon. Member mean to say that the County Council of Yorkshire, for instance, could select its own bodies? Suppose the Education Department said to the County Council of Yorkshire—"You have to elect representatives of other bodies, but we do not find them in the scheme you have provided." The Attorney General mentioned who these bodies would be — the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, and, lastly, the Church of England, because he supposed it was last in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. Suppose the Education Department said to the County Council, "We do not find that the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, or the Church of England have got a representative under your scheme." Did the hon. Member mean to say that in that case the Board of Education could not oppose that scheme?


Yes, I say so.


said that if the interpretation of the hon. Member was correct, he should support the Amendment of his hon. friend. Suppose the. County Council of Glamorgan did not put on the Committee as many representatives of the denominational schools as the Board of Education thought satisfied the requirements of the case, and that the Board of Education wrote to the Council saying, " We decline to sanction your scheme until you put on further representatives of the denominational schools"—


Every scheme has, of course, to be approved by the Board of Education.


said that, of course, the Education Department might also reject a scheme. Unfortunately, the hon. Member opposite would not be the authority to decide on these schemes. It would be the Government that would interpret the Clause, not even the Court of Appeal. Moreover, under Section 5, scheme had not been made and approved within twelve months, the Education Department could make a scheme of its own.


Subject to the approval of the House of Commons.


said that the Education Bill showed what the House of Commons might approve. What he wanted to know from the hon. Member was what became of the Zurich analogy and the Zurich independence in the Bill now. But the hon. Gentleman should not really drop Zurich, as it was very useful. The hon. Member, who had studied the matter very closely, who was more fully acquainted with the provisions of the Bill than any unofficial Member on the other side, who was an expert, the sort of man they wanted to bring in under sub-Section (b), who had studied educational systems, not only in this country but in Zurich, was absolutely in conflict with his own leaders as to the meaning of the Bill. How could ordinary laymen on a County Council, even with the aid of experts, interpret the Bill when experts in the House of Commons disagreed as to its meaning. The hon. Member said that the Committee should dismiss from its mind altogether the notion that the Clause was a plot in order to bring in the voluntary schools. That certainly was not their notion. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen asked the Attorney General to tell the Committee what these other bodies were. The Attorney General said that they were bodies interested in education, and, with that reluctance of his race, he said at last that they would be Wesleyans, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans. That was not their notion; and he wished to know why the hon. Gentleman opposite should point the finger of scorn at them, and say they had a certain idea when the idea belonged to the attorney General They wanted know who these bodies were, and whether the County Council was to have the right of selection. Cooptation, which was forced, was no option. A great deal had been said about the Welsh Intermediate scheme. In that scheme, there were provisions for representation of the School Boards. What did that mean? It meant that the local ratepayers would be represented. There was no provision in the present Bill for the protection of the local ratepayers, or for the protection of the parent, and the only persons who were mentioned were members of bodies acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools. Who were they? They were the denominational mangers. There was nothing in the Bill to compel the Council to introduce into the scheme representatives of the District Councils or the Parish Councils, although a District Council might represent 10,000 ratepayers; but where four managers were concerned, special words were introduced in order to protect them. Who did they represent? They did not represent the ratepayer. They did not even represent their own denomination. They were not elected by that denomination; they were simply nominated either by the landowner or the local clergyman; and yet these four persons were to have the right of representation on the committee, whereas no words were introduced to secure representation for the Parish Councils and District Councils. He thought that was a very fair indication of the spirit in which the Bill was drawn. In fact, one could not take up a single section in the Bill without finding a provision for the protection of voluntary schools. There was the majority management of two to one; the appointment of teachers; the appeal to the Board of Education and the time which could be consumed; and, as if these things were not enough, they were also to have representation on the committee, although they were not responsible to any one, not even to the denomination they were supposed to represent.

MR BOUSFIEDL (Hackney, N.)

said he did not known if it was too late to recall the Committee to the particular Amendment under discussion. They had had a general discussion on the Motion to omit the Clause, and now they were having another general discussion. He gathered from the hon. Member who moved the Amendment that his object was to make clear what was already said to be clear, that the appointment of nominated members was to be in the hands of the Council. He did not, however, understand the difference between "selection" and "appointment." It had been indicated clearly by the Government that the Council would have a veto, as it were, on any such nomination as was contemplated in the Clause. He certainly understood that the appointment was to be in the hands of the County Council, and that the Council would not be obliged to accept any nomination from other bodies. He understood the hon. Gentlemen's object was to make that clear, and he admitted there might be some doubt about it. He therefore ventured to make a suggestion which he thought might meet with the approval of many hon. Members on both sides. He thought the word "nomination" was a somewhat unsuitable word, and he proposed to substitute for it the word "recommendation," in order to make it clear that the Council would be ultimately responsible for the appointment. The word "nomination" was generally used where the body who nominated had the absolute right to elect its nominee. He himself happened to be nominated by the London County Council as one of the governors of a technical institution in London, and the other governors had no power to interfere with such nomination. He suggested that what was proposed was really in the nature of a recommendation to the Council from these bodies, the appointment being with the Council. He doubted whether the insertion of the words "selection of" would alter the sense of the Clause, because he saw very little difference between "selection" and "appointment." It would be quite impossible to ask a body to send up a row of nominees, giving the County Council the right to select one of them, and he could not imagine that the hon. Member had any such idea in his mind.


said he intended to propose a consequential Amend- ment which would make his meaning perfectly clear.


said he thought that the Amendment would introduce confusion, whereas the object the hon. Gentleman had in view would be attained if the word "recommendation" were substituted for "nomination." It would then be quite clear that the final appointment would be with the Council.


said he wished to recommend to hon. Members that they should confine themselves to the issue before the Committee, and not go into drafting points. He quite agreed that drafting was not very easy, and he had no doubt that they might argue over words for a very long time. As to the actual point at issue, it would be left absolutely to the County Council or the Borough Council, as the case might be, to decide, without restriction or interference in any shape or form, what bodies should be invited. He did not, however, rise to argue the point, but to suggest that the Committee might decide that important issue now without going off into the minutiœ of drafting refinements.


said that the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Education disclosed a singular misapprehension on his part as to the meaning of the Clause; and that, not in reference to drafting minutiœs which the Prime Minister had recommended the Committee not to discuss, but with reference to a matter of substance. The Secretary to the Board of Education said that the Council would have the power of appointing persons nominated by unknown bodies, and he went on to say that if the Council did not like a particular person who was nominated, it would be entitled to refuse to appoint him, and that the body concerned would be obliged to nominate another person. If the hon. Gentleman would consult the Attorney General, he would find that that was not the meaning of the Clause. The Clause was as imperative as any Clause could be. It was that the scheme "shall provide" for the appointment by the Council on the nomination of other bodies. That meant that the Council must appoint the persons nominated by the other bodies. If it were really the intention of the Government that the Council should have power to refuse nomination, then they should have it clearly stated in the Clause, in which case his hon. Friend's Amendment would not be necessary. If it were intended that the Council should be entitled to say to anybody "Your nominee is not a persona grata to us, and we refuse to accept him," words should be inserted giving the Council the power of selection as well as of nomination, because that was what it amounted to. If the Secretary to the Board of Education were right, the Council had the power of selection or, at all events, the power of veto, but that was not in the Clause as it stood.


said he trusted that the Committee would give consideration to a word from him, as he was not a novice on that part of the question. The proposal of the Government to provide for nomination by other bodies was only adopting in an Act of Parliament a practice which had obtained with the Charity Commissioners and the Board of Education successively for more than thirty years. He had taken a note of the bodies who had nominated to the Technical Instruction Committee in his own experience. They were the College of St. John's (Cambridge), Victoria University, Owen's College (Manchester), the Yorkshire College (Leeds), and also institutions of a more local character, such as the Technical Colleges, Grammar Schools, and so on through a long series. All experience of the working of the system showed hi that infinite good resulted from it. The members nominated by the Victoria Univerity, Owens College, and the Yorkshire College, were gentlemen of culture with a knowledge of educational subjects and thoroughly familiar with the needs of the various schools. Therefore, they were now simply placing on the Statute Book a practice which had been adopted by the central department in connection with secondary education for more than a generation, with eminent and conspicuous success. He did not wish to quibble on a question of language, but the word "nomination" was almost universally adopted already and with regard to the scheme itself, he would remind the Committee that the Council, in the first instance, would submit it, and that they would also have the power of proposing alterations from time to time. From his own observation he thought it was most desirable that other bodies should be brought in. The report of the Commission on Secondary Education also recommended that plan, and, therefore, he was justified in the statement that if the proposal were adopted it would, without doubt, be most successful.


pointed out that every well regulated County Council had its committee of selection, just as had the House of Commons, and if the consequential Amendment of his hon. friend were carried it would be open to that Committee of Selection to communicate with the governing bodies of schools or other bodies which it might think proper to consult, and obtain from them the names of gentlemen whom they might wish to see on the Education Committee. That would be a much more convenient course than that of giving statutory sanction to a scheme, because a scheme once approved would stand hard and fast until repealed and another substituted, whereas it would be in the power of the Committee of Selection, if they thought fit, at every election to vary the authorities from which they choose their experts, according to the varying importance of those bodies. That would be a much more convenient plan, and it would not in any way diminish the advantage of obtaining outside advice.

MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley)

asked whether the Board of Education was to have power to order the appointment of the persons nominated by outside bodies. If a scheme could not be approved without such nominations it followed that the appointment of certain members from outside would be absolutely

necessary on the part of the Council before they could carry on their work. If, however, the Council had the power to select the bodies, in the first instance, from whom the appointments were to be made, much of the objection to the proposal would be removed. Under the Technical Instruction Act, 1889, the Council had powers of co-optation which had been freely exercised without any hitch whatever, and he could not see why a power which had been exercised with great discretion and wisdom should be interfered with.

(11.38) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 92; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 482.)

Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc. Stroud Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Robson, William Snowdon
Ashton, Thomas Gair Helme, Norval Watson Roe, Sir Thomas
Atherley-Jones, L. Holland, Sir William Henry Runciman, Walter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Shackleton, David James
Brigg, John Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Broadhurst, Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Jacoby, James Alfred Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Soares, Ernest J.
Cameron, Robert Lambert, George Spencer, RtHn C.R.(Northants
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lay land-Barratt, Francis Strachey, Sir Edward
Causton, Richard Knight Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cawley, Frederick Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Chapping, Francis Allston Leng, Sir John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Cremer, William Randal Levy, Maurice Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan, Gower
Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Kenna, Reginald Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene
Duncan, J. Hastings Markham, Arthur Basil White, Luke (York, E. R)
Edwards, Frank Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Whiteley, George (York, W.R.
Ellis, John Edward Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whitley, J, H. (Halifax)
Evans, Sir FrancisH (Maidstone Moss, Samuel Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Newnes, Sir George Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfi'd
Grant, Corrie Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Yoxall, James Henry
Griffith, Ellis J. Philipps, John Wynford
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rea, Russell TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Herbert Gladstoneand
Harwood, George Rigg, Richard Mr. William M'Arthur.
Agar-Gardner, James Tynte Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt. HnGeraldW(Leeds
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Banbury, Frederick George
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bain, Colonel James Robert Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Baird, John George Alexander Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.
Bignold, Arthur Gretton, John Nicholson, William Graham
Bigwood, James Greville, Hon. Ronald Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bill, Charles Groves, James Grimble O'Doherty, William
Blundell Colonel Henry Guthrie, Walter Murray Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Boseawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton, RtHn Lord (Mid'x Parkes, Ebenezer
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Pemberton, John S. G.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hare, Thomas Leigh Pierpoint, Robert
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Harris, Frederick Leverton Plummer, Waiter R.
Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh. Hay, Hon. Claude George Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Brymer, William Ernest Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Pretyman, Ernest George
Bull, William James Henderson, Sir Alexander Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Butcher, John George Hickman, Sir Alfred Purvis, Robert
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire Higginbottom, S. W. Pym, C. Guy
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hoare, Sir Samuel Randles, John S.
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset,E. Rankin, Sir James
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hogg, Lindsay Reid, James (Greenock)
Chamberlain, RtHn J.A.(Worc Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Remnant, James Farquharson
Chapman, Edward Hoult, Joseph Renwick, George
Charrington, Spencer Howard John(Kent, Faversh'm Ridley, Hon M. W.(Stalybridge
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Clive, Captain Percy A. Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Ropner, Colonel Robert
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Johnstone, Heywood Round, Rt. Hon. James
Compton, Lord Alwyne Kemp, George Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cook, Sir Fredrick Lucas Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W.(Salop. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Keswick, William Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cranborne, Viscount King, Sir Henry Seymour Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)
Crossley, Sir Savile Knowles, Lees Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lambton, Hon. Frederick Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Cust, Henry Jonn C. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Lawson, John Grant Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Doughty, George Lee, ArthurH.(Hants, Fareham Spear, John Ward
Duke, Henry Edward Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset
Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Faber, George Denison (York) Llewellyn, Evan Henry Talbot, Rt. HnJG(Oxford Univ.
Fardell, Sir T. George Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Thornton, Percy M.
Fellowes, Hon. AilwynEdward Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ (Manc'r Long, RtHn. Walter(Bristol,S.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Fielder, Edward Brocklehurst Loyd, Archie Kirkman Tuke, Sir John Batty
Finch, George H. Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Valentia, Viscount
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Fisher, William Hayes Macdona, John Cumming Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton
Fison, Frederick William Maclver, David (Liverpool Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Whiteley, H(Ashton-und.Lyne
Forster, Henry William Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W Mildmay, Francis Bingham Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond Milvain, Thomas Willox, Sir John Archibald
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Montagu, Hon.J.Scott (Hants. Wilson,A. Stanley (York,E. R.)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Morrell, George Herbert Wylie, Alexander
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Graham, Henry Robert Mount, William Arthur Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds Murray, RtHn A. Grallam(Bute TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Sir Alexander Acland
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Myers, William Henry Hood and Mr. Anstruther
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H. (City of Lond Morrell, George Herbert
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Allhusen AugustusHenry Eden Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Mount, William Arthur
Anson, Sir William Reynell Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Murray Rt Hn.A. Graham(Bute
Arkwright, John Stanhope Goulding, Edward Alfred Murray, CharlesJ. (Coventry)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Graham, Henry Robert Myers, William Henry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Nicholson, William Graham
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bain, Colonel James Robert Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) O'Doherty, William
Baird, John George Alexander Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r Gretton, John Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds Greville, Hon. Ronald Pemberton, John S. G.
Banbury, Frederick George Groves, James Grimble Pierpoint, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Guthrie, Walter Murray Plummer, Walter R.
Beresford Lord Charles William Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton RtHn LordG(Midd'x Pretymam Ernest George
Bigwood, James Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bill, Charles Hare, Thomas Leigh Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Harris, Frederick Leverton Pym, C. Guy
Bond, Edward Hay, Hon. Claude George Randles, John S.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Rankin, Sir James
Bowles, Capt. H.F (Middlesex Henderson, Sir Alexander Reid, James (Greenock)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Higginbottom, S. W. Remnant, James Farquharson
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hoare, Sir Samuel Renwick, George
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset,E. Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Staly bridge
Brymer, William Ernest Hogg, Lindsay Ritche, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson
Bull, William James Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Butcher, John George Hoult, Joseph Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derhyshire Howard, John(Kent Faversham Ropner, Colonel Robert
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) Round, Et. Hon. James
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Royds, Clement Molyneux
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J. (Birm. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Chapman, Edward Johnstone, Heywood Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Charrington, Spencer Kemp, George Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside
Churchill, Winston Spencer Kenyon-Slaney, Col W. (Salop. Smith James Parker(Lanarks.)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Keswick, William Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour Spear, John Ward
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Knowles, Lees Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Compton, Lord Alwyne Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Strat[...], Hon. Charles Hedley
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lawson, John Grant Talbot, Rt. Hn J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Cranborne, Viscount Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham Thornton, Percy M.
Crossley, Sir Savile Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Tomlinson, Sir. Wm. Edw. M.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Cust, Henry John C. Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N.S Tuke, Sir John Batty
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Llewellyn, Evan Henry Valentia, Viscount
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Walrond, Rt. H n. Sir William H.
Doughty, George Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton
Duke, Henry Edward Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S. Welby, Sir CharlesG. E.(Notts.)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale) Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Loyd, Archie Kirkman Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Faber, George Denison (York) Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Willox, Sir John Archibald
Fergusson, RtHn Sir J. (Manc'r Macdona, John Cumming Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Maclver, David (Liverpool) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Finch, George H. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wylie, Alexander
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Maxwell, W J H(Dumfriesshire Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fisher, William Hayes Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Fison, Frederick William Milvain, Thomas
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Forster, Henry William More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Sir Alexander Aeland
Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S. W Morgan David J(Walthanastow Hood and Mr. Anstruther
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Broadhurst, Henry Cameron, Robert
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Atherley-Jones, L. Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Causton, Richard Knight
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Cawley, Frederick
Brigg, John Caldwell, James Channing, Francis Allston
Cremer, William Randal Labouchere, Henry Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lambert, George Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan Layland-Barratt, Francis Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Duncan, J. Hastings Leigh, Sir Joseph Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Edwards, Frank Legg, Sir John Soares, Ernest J.
Ellis, John Edward Levy, Maurice Spencer, RtHn. C. R. (Northants
Evans, SirFrancisH (Maidstone Lewis, John Herbert Strachey, Sir Edward
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)
Ferguson. R. C. Munro (Leith) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Tkomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Thomas, JA (Glam'rgan, Gower
Grant, Corrie Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel Wason, Eugene
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Newnes, Sir George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William Nussey, Thomas Willans Whiteley, George(York, W.R.)
Harwood, George Partington, Oswald Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Philipps, John Wynford Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Helme, Norval Watson Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R)
Holland, Sir William Henry Rickett, J. Compton Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Rigg, Richard
Horniman, Frederick John Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Roe, Sir Thomas Mr. Herbert Gladstone
Jacoby, James Alfred Runciman, Walter and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea Shackleton, David James
(11.51) MR. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question That the words of the Clause to the first word "of," inclusive, in page 4, line 36, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188;

Question put, "That the Question That the words of the Clause to the first word "of," inclusive, in page 4, line 36, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."

Noes, 90. (Division List No. 483.)

(11.59.) Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 190; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 484.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Henderson, Sir Alexander
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cranborne, Viscount Hickman, Sir Alfred
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Crossley, Sir Savile Higginbottom, S. W.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, Sir Samuel
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cust, Henny John C. Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset,E.)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hogg, Lindsey
Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Doughty, George Hoult, Joseph
Bain, Colonel James Robert Duke, Henry Edward Howard, John(Kent,F'versham
Baird, John George Alexander Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r Faber, George Denison (York) Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Balfour, RtHnGerald W.(Leeds Followes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Banbury, Frederick George Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Johnstone, Heywood
Beresford, Lord Chas. William Finch, George H. Kemp, George
Bignold, Arthur Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.
Bigwood, James Fishier, William Hayes Keswick, William
Bill, Charles Fison, Frederick William King, Sir Henry Seymour
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fletcher, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry Knowles, Lees
Bond, Edward Forster, Henry William Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Forster, PhilipS.(Warwick ,S. W Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex) Gibbs, Hn.A.G.H. (CityofLond. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gibbs, Hon Vicary (St.Albans) Lawson, John Grant
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Brymer, William Ernest Goulding Edward Alfred Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bull, William James Graham, Henry Robert Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Greene, Sir E W (BryS. Edm'nds Loner, Gerald Walter Erskine
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Long, Col. Charles W.)Evesham
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Long, Rt. Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm. Gretton, John Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn.J.A(Worc. Greville, Hon. Ronald Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chapman, Edward Groves, James Grmble Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth
Charrington, Spencer Guthrie, Walter Murray Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Churchill, Winston Spencer Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Macdona, John Cumming
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hamilton. RtHn LordG (Midd'x MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, W.JH (Dumfriesshire
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Harris, Frederick Leverton Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hay, Hon. Claude George Milvain, Thomas
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Montagu, Hn.J. Scott (Hants.)
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Reid, James (Greenock) Thornton, Percy M.
Morgan, David J(Walth'mstow Remnant, James Farquharson Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Morrell, George Herbert Renwick, George Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge Tuke, Sir John Batty
Mount, William Arthur Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson Valentia, Viscount
Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton
Myers, William Henry Ropner, Colonel Robert Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts,
Nicholson, William Graham Round, Rt. Hon. James Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne
Nicol, Donald Ninian Royds, Clement Molyneux Whitmore, Charles Algernon
O'Doherty, William Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Pemberton, John S. G. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) Wylie, Alexander
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Pretyman, Ernest George Spear, John Ward Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Purvis, Robert Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Pym, C. Guy Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Rankin, Sir James Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Sir Alexander Acland-
Ratch, Major Frederic Carne Talbot, Rt. Hn.J G(Oxf'dUniv. Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harwood, George Rigg, Richard
Allen, Chas. P.(Glouc., Stroud) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Roberts, John H (Denbighs)
Atherley-Jones, L. Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Robson, William Snowdon
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Helme, Norval Watson Roe, Sir Thomas
Brigg, John Holland, Sir William Henry Runciman, Walter
Broadhurst, Henry Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Shackleton, David James
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Caldwell, James Jacoby, James Alfred Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cameron, Robert Jones, Dvd. Brynmor (Swansea Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Camphell-Bannerman, Sir H Labouchere, Henry Soares, Ernest J.
Causton, Richard Knight Layland-Barratt, Francis Spencer, Rt.Hn. C.R(Northants
Cawley, Frederick Leese, Sir Jsph.F (Accrington) Strachey, Sir Edward
Channing, Francis Allston Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Cremer, William Randal Long, Sir John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Levy, Maurice Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M`Kenna, Reginald Trevelyan, Charles Phillips
Duncan, J. Hastings Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wason, Eugene
Edwards, Frank Markham, Arthur Basil White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Ellis, John Edward Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen) Whiteley, George(York. W.R.)
Evans, Sir Fras. H. (Maidstone) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Moss, Samuel Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Newnes, Sir George Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd
Grant, Corrie Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Griffith, Ellis J. Philipps, John Wynford TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rea, Russell Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Rickett, J. Compton Mr. William M'Arthur

It being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to again Tomorrow