HC Deb 03 November 1902 vol 113 cc1469-512

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 9:—

(9.0.) MR. HERBERT ROBERTS moved to leave out from the Clause the words, "any ten ratepayers in the area for which it is proposed to provide the school.' These words, he said, gave the right of appeal to any ten ratepayers to go to the Board of Education against the erection of a school within the area in which they were interested. The point was one which did not require much argument on one side or the other. As long as the power rested with the local authorities he did not see why a few ratepayers should he allowed to intervene. He could not conceive how any useful purpose could be served by such a provision.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 40, to leave out the words 'and any ten ratepayers in the area for which it is proposed to provide the school.'"—

Question proposed, "That the word 'and' stand part of the Clause."

THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)

said the proposal of the Government was that the right of appeal in the case of a new school should not be limited to the local authority which had in view the general educational interests of the area. While the local education authorities took a comprehensive view of the general educational requirements of their area, there were others who were interested. The managers of the existing school might object to the rivalry of the new school. There was another body of persons interested, and these were the ratepayers of the district in which it was proposed that a school should be established. Surely the ratepayers might be supposed to have a special knowledge of their district, and it was only fair that those interested in the locality should have an opportunity of making their voices heard.

MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)

said that, seeing there were no other speakers on the Opposition side, he concluded that Members on that side were prepared to accept Sir William Anson's statement. Under those circumstances he would not trouble the Committee with any further observations.

(9.8.) Question put.

(9.10.) The Committee divided:—Ayes. 87: Noes, 70. (Division List No. 460.)

AYES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Charrington, Spencer Denny, Colonel
Arkwright, John Stanhope Clare, Octavius Leigh Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Clive, Captain Percy A. Duke, Henry Edward
Bailey, James (Walworlh) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fardell, Sir T. George
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Finch, George H.
Bigwood, James Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bond, Edward Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Bousfield, William Robert Cranborne, Viscount Flower, Ernest
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Forster, Henry William
Bull, William James Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Gardner, Ernest
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Dalrymple, Sir Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Chapman, Edward Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morrell, George Herbert Stewart, Sir Mark J. M' Taggart
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Muntz, Sir Philip A. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Heaton, John Henniker Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Helder, Augustus Murray, Col. Wyndbam (Bath) Valentia, Viscount
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Percy, Earl Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hudson, George Bickersteth Pierpoint, Robert Webb, Colonel William George
Johnstone, Heywood Plummer, Walter R. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Keswick, William Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Vorks.)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Purvis, Robert Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pym, C. Guy Wylie, Alexander
Long, Col. Charles W, (Evesham Randles, John S. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Round, Rt. Hon. James
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Rutherford, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Manners, Lord Cecil Sharpe, William Edward T. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.).
NOES.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Griffith, Ellis J. Rea, Russell
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Runciman, Walter
Bell, Richard Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Schwann, Charles E.
Brigg, John Holland, Sir William Henry Shackleton, David James
Broadhurst, Henry Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Lambert, George Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Burt, Thomas Langley, Batty Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Buxton, Sydney Charles Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Soares, Ernest J.
Caldwell, James Lewis, John Herbert Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants
Cameron, Robert Lloyd-George David Stevenson, Francis S.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Channing, Francis Allston M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Cremer, William Randal M'Crae, George White, George (Norfolk)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Kenna, Reginald White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Mansfield, Horace Rendall Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dunn, Sir William Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank Moulton, John Fletcher Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (M'dstone Newnes, Sir George Yoxall, James Henry
Fenwick, Charles Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nussey, Thomas Willans
Furness, Sir Christopher Perks, Robert William TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John Philipps, John Wynford Mr. Herbert Roberts and Mr. Dalziel
Goddard, Daniel Ford Price, Robert John

(9.20.) MR. M'KENNA moved an Amendment to omit the words "any ten ratepayers," and insert "a majority of the ratepayers." He said that to give to ten ratepayers the right of appeal to the Board of Education against the decision of the local education authority to provide a new school was not merely to promote, but to invite, sectarian conflict. Societies would be formed for the express purpose of urging ratepayers to combine in order to harass the local education authority in its work of providing undenominational schools. Nothing was so easy as for members of a denomination to get ten of their own faith in their own district to appeal against the local authority to the Board of Education and so hang up the whole progress of building new schools for a period of not less than three months. Was it reasonable that any ten ratepayers should have that power? Did not the managers of existing schools afford sufficient protection for denominational interests? The number certainly ought to be larger than ten.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 1, to leave out the words 'any ten,' and insert the words 'a majority of the.' "—(Mr. M'Kenna.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'any ten' stand part of the Clause."

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

said that hon. Gentlemen who protested against this right of appeal being given to ten ratepayers had evidently forgotten that an analogous power was given to ten ratepayers under the Act of 1870—a measure which seemed to be the object of the adoration of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He could scarcely imagine that the Amendment asking that the appeal should only be allowed to a majority of the ratepayers had been moved seriously. The question involved was whether the ratepayers should have any voice in a matter which so vitally concerned them as the provision of a new school. Some arrangement must be made for that voice being heard; but if the Amendment were adopted it would be impossible that it could be heard, owing to the difficulty of ascertaining the views of the majority. He asked the House to reject the Amendment.

MR. FLETCHER MOULTON (Cornwall. Launceston)

thought the Attorney General had failed to grasp the meaning of the Clause. He had said that the interests of the ratepayers must be protected, but surely the local education authority was the very body to which ratepayers had delegated the duty of protecting their interests. It was not ten of the county ratepayers — not ten of the people who would have to pay the rates for the school—but simply ten of the ratepayers of the area of the provided school, that were to be given this power of appealing against the decision of the local education authority. They would thus be put in a position to hinder educational development.

MR. ERNEST GRAY

said the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to have forgotten the fact that the capital charge for the school was to be levied on the parish to be served by the proposed school.

MR. M'KENNA

Not the whole, but one-third.

MR. ERNEST GRAY

said that, even SO, the fact was a direct refutation of the argument of the hon. Gentleman. It was alleged that ten ratepayers in the district to be served by the school had no more interest in the question than the ratepayers of the county as a whole. That would be true if the building charge were spread over the whole county like the maintenance charge, but in fact it was to be levied on the particular district. It had been alleged that the Clause was designed to multiply small schools in the interests of denominations, and obviously if that were so, every check against multiplication ought to be welcomed by those who objected to the proposal of the Government. Seeing that any two persons interested in a charity could set the Charity Commission to work to produce a scheme for securing an educational rearrangement in their area, it was not unreasonable, surely, to ask that ten persons should in this matter have a power of appeal to the Board of Education. In passing, he might say he did not know where the denominations were going to find funds for the erection of schools up and down the country. It might be suggested that a claim for a particular school had been worked up by one or two interested clergymen without consulting the interests of the ratepayers who would have to bear the burden of maintaining the school, and in such a case, surely the ratepayers ought to have the right of being heard. He hoped the Amendment would be rejected.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said he did not think the Clause was quite as clear as the Prime Minister seemed to imagine. The point was, whether the ten ratepayers might be from the whole area, that was to say, the whole jurisdiction, or from the parish or parishes to be served by the proposed school. In his opinion, it was exceedingly unfair that ten ratepayers—it might be ten out of ten thousand—should be able to stop. the educational machinery for three or four months, when it was a question of providing schools for the children in the district. He wished to refer to another point, which was one of substance. The Government had placed the schools provided by the local authority on the same level as the schools provided by private persons. Now, local authorities would be very slow to provide schools which were not absolutely necessary, and the expense of which would be thrown on the ratepayers. Public representatives must give an account of their stewardship, and if they imposed unnecessary rates they would be called to account. The Committee might come to the conclusion that a local authority was not likely to impose a burden of this kind unless there was the strongest demand for it. Why not leave the appeal to the local representatives?

DR. MACNAMARA

said that this matter was much more serious than the Attorney General imagined. The Clause said that, subject to certain conditions, any ten ratepayers might appeal to the Board of Education against the proposed new school within a period of three months. Then the Board of Education might take any time whatever for determining a proposal. The Attorney General said that this was all analogous to the Act of 1870. He ventured to submit, with great respect, that it was nothing of the sort. According to the Act of 1870 the ten ratepayers might make a representation to the Education Department, but it must be within one month, and then the Board of Education must issue the notices determining the appeal within six months. The scheme of the Clause now under discussion was far more cumbrous and dilatory than that of the Act of 1870, and far more time was wanted to put it into operation, whereas it should be more prompt. The Act of 1870 left the voluntary schools as they were, only supplementing their numbers, But this Bill did not leave the voluntary schools as they were; it revolutionised them and put them on the public rates. Now, what would happen? Many of these schools wore in a hopelessly dilapidated condition, and there would be interminable haggling between the local authority and the managers on many points — the furniture, the teachers' salaries, the rental for the teachers' house, the number of the staff, and the apparatus to be provided—and the local authority might say to the managers, "We cannot come to terms with you; we will build a new school." That would happen in hundreds of cases. The arrangements for building the new school were most cumbrous, and the children might be left out of the school at a critical time of their life for many many months.

* SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)

said ho held that the machinery provided in the present Bill was much more favourable than that in the Act of 1870. It seemed to him that it was only reasonable, if there was to be an appeal at all, that it should be a real appeal. He believed that it was the contention of all his legal friends that there should be an easy access to the Courts, that this should not be hedged round about by impediments and restrictions. In drafting this Clause the Government had acted in accordance with the policy of Parliament in making easy access to a Court of Appeal. It appeared to him to be altogether a retrograde course to set up cumbrous and difficult machinery, which was slow to work and always excited considerable antagonism and involved much cost. On these grounds he thought the Government were fully justified in the course which they had adopted.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

said he hoped the Attorney General would give his opinion of what constituted a school area from which the ten ratepayers were to be drawn. Was it to be a county area, a school district area, or a parish area?

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

The area encircling the schools.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

asked what that meant.

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

The area from which the pupils would be drawn.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

said that that was about the vaguest possible explanation which the hon. and learned Gentleman could have given. In some places the children walked seven miles to school. They yet did not know from where the ten ratepayers were to be drawn. The Attorney General quoted a precedent from the Act of 1870, but surely they had moved since then. The effect of all the restrictions on the public authority in regard to education since the Act of 1870 accounted for the fact that we had been outstripped by the United States and Germany. What other civilised country in the world would tolerate for a day those blocks against the free provision of adequate education. The words in the Clause were aimed against the publicly provided schools, and he protested against that policy. The publicly provided schools should be managed by all and for the benefit of all.

MR. CHARLES MCARTHUR (Liverpool, Exchange)

expressed the hope that the Government would see their way to modify their proposal. It seemed to him to be impractical that any ten ratepayers could object successfully to a school being formed. It was nothing short of putting a premium on obstruction. There would always be two parties in every district, one in favour of a provided school and the other in favour of a non-provided school; and it would be perfectly easy to get ten ratepayers as objectors to any proposal whatever. He quite agreed that the ratepayers ought to have some say in the matter, and he supported the suggestion of an hon. Member that that might be done by a parish meeting.

MR. BRYCE

said that the Attorney General had declared that an area meant, or implied, the district from which the children came. He never heard of such loose drafting. In the interest of good drafting, and of the correct reading of the Act, some more precise terms should be used. As it stood, whatever way they looked at it, the expression seemed to him to be extremely vague and uncertain, and there could be nothing more unsatisfactory than the whole of the Clause. He suggested an Amendment which, in the interests of avoiding trouble, would make the language more precise. If they introduced the word "parish" they would bring in the Parish Council; but the Clause, as it stood, was so vague that it was certain to cause trouble. The majority of the ratepayers proposed by his hon. friend went perhaps rather too far; but ten was too small a number. It invited captiousness, and would cause trouble; and if the Committee desired that there should be a more substantial expression of opinion from the ratepayers they should provide a larger number.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

said that the area need not necessarily be a parish. It might be a district in a large town, or a combination of parishes. Surely the way to meet the difficulty as to the area was to provide subsequently that the persons who gave public notice of their intention to provide a school must state in that notice the area which it was intended to serve. That would define the area out of which the ten ratepayers who appealed should come With regard to the number of ratepayers ten was a very usual number in Local Government Acts; and it was also the number in the Act of 1870. There would be no advantage in increasing it, as ratepayers would always be found to appeal once the appeal was started. Ten, twenty, or a hundred would not make any difference.

* MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)

said that the First Lord of the Treasury stated in the discussion on a previous Amendment that he was emancipating the local authority from the restrictions in the Act of 1870, by enabling them to provide schools on conditions under which the existing School Boards could not provide them. He ventured to suggest that in retaining this form of words borrowed from the Act of 1870, the right hon. Gentleman was cheeking the action of the local authority in providing schools, and was taking away the good effect which his own proposal reasonably and logically carried with it. There was no special advantage in the introduction of the ratepayers into the matter. The hon. Member for Wigan proceeded to argue from the Act of 1870 a fortiori for giving the right to the ratepayers to protest against the provision of a school; but it seemed to him that the argument was all the other way. The argument was perhaps strong when it was a question of the creation of a School Board, with all its liabilities of rating and otherwise. That was a matter on which the right might reasonably be given to the ratepayers to lay their case before the Board of Education; but with regard to the carrying out of the plain duty of the education authority which the First Lord of the Treasury boasted he was emancipating from the restrictions of the Act of 1870, in giving greater freedom to provide unsectarian schools, whether there was any proved deficiency of accommodation or not —it seemed unfortunate that such a restriction should be introduced. He did not agree with the Amendment. He would sooner see the whole of thes words struck out without any word being put in their place. The Committee were giving quite enough in granting the right of appeal to the representatives of any existing school whose interests or usefulness might be impared.

(10.3.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 95. (Division List, No. 461.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Finch, George H. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fisher, William Hayes Myers, William Henry
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fison, Frederick William Nicol, Donald Ninian
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Badey, James (Walworth) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Parker, Sir Gilbert
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Percy, Earl
Baird, John George Alexander Flower, Ernest Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Balcarres, Lord Forster, Henry William Plummer, Walter R.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Galloway, William Johnson Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balfour, Capt. C. B (Hornsey) Gardner, Ernest Pretyman, Ernest George
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Garfit, William Purvis, Robert
Banbury, Frederick George Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Pym, C. Guy
Bartley, George C. T. Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Randles, John S.
Bignold, Arthur Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) Rankin, Sir James
Bigwood, James Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bill, Charles Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Remnant, James Farquharson
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hambro, Charles Eric Robinson, Brooke
Bousfield, William Robert Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Round, Rt. Hon. James
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Hare, Thomas Leigh Royds, Clement Molyneux
Brymer, William Ernest Harris, Frederick Leverton Rutherford, John
Bull, William James Heaton, John Henniker Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Butcher, John George Helder, Augustus Sharpe, William Edward T.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Henderson, Sir Alexander Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Skewes, Cox, Thomas
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hogg, Lindsay Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Chapman, Edward Hudson, George Bickersteth Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer Johnstone, Heywood Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Clare, Octavins Leigh Kemp, George Stone, Sir Benjamin
Clive, Captain Percy A. Keswick, William Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham Thornton, Percy M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Leigh Bennett, Henry Currie Valentia, Viscount
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Walker, Col. William Hall
Cranborne, Viscount Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Webb, Colonel William George
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Tannt'n
Crossley, Sir Savile Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Macdona, John Cumming Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Dalrymple, Sir Charles M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Davenport, W. Bromley- Macolm, Ian Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Manners, Lord Cecil Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Denny, Colonel Maxwell, W J. H (Dumfriesshire Wylie, Alexander
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E. More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Duke, Henry Edward Morrison, James Archibald
Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer TELLERS FOE THE AYES.—
Dyke, Rt. Hon, Sir William Hart Mount, William Arthur Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Fardell, Sir T. George Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
NOES.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Broadhurst, Henry
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Bell, Richard Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brigg, John Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Burns, John Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Burt, Thomas Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kearley, Hudson E. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Caldwell, James Langley, Batty Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cameron, Robert Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Soares, Ernest J.
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants
Channing, Francis Allston Lloyd-George, David Stevenson, Francis S.
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Strachey, Sir Edward
Dalziel, James Henry Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen E.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan E.
Davies, M Vanghan-(Cardigan M' Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Edwards, Frank Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wallace, Robert
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Moulton, John Fletcher Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Fenwick, Charles Newnes, Sir George Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wason, Eugene
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans White, George (Norfolk)
Fuller, J. M. F. Perks, Robert William White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Furness, Sir Christopher Philipps, John Wynford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John Price, Robert John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Goddard, Daniel Ford Priestley, Arthur Williams Osmond (Merioneth)
Grant, Corrie Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton Woodhouse, Sir. J T (Huddersf'd
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Yoxall, James Henry
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Runciman, Walter Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. Lambert.
Holland, Sir William Henry Sehwann, Charles E.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That the words of the Clause from the word "ratepayers" in page 4, line 1, to the word "required,'' in line 4, both inclusive, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."

(10.13.) Question put, "That the Question 'That the words of the Clause from the word "ratepayers," in page 4, line 1, to the word "required," in line 4, both inclusive, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 98. (Division List, No. 462.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Burdett-Coutts, W. Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Butcher, John George Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Duke, Henry Edward
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fardell, Sir T. George
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Bailey, James (Walworth) Chapman, Edward Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r
Bain, Colonel James Robert Charrington, Spencer Fincn, George H.
Baird, John George Alexander Clare, Octavius Leigh Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Balcarres, Lord Clive, Captain Perry A. Fisher, William Hayes
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fison, Frederick William
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Banbury, Frederick George Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bartley, George C. T. Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Compton, Lord Alwyne Flower, Ernest
Bignold, Arthur Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Forster, Henry William
Bigwood, James Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Galloway, William Johnson
Bill, Charles Cranborne, Viscount Gardner, Ernest
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cripps, Charles Alfred Garfit, William
Bond, Edward Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets
Bousfield, William Robert Crossley, Sir Savile Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Davenport, William Bromley- Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Brymer, William Ernest Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bull, William James Denny, Colonel Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F
Hambro, Charles Eric More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Morrell, George Herbert Sharpe, William Edward T.
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Morrison, James Archibald Simeon, Sir Barrington
Harris, Frederick Leverton Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Heaton, John Henniker Mount, William Arthur Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Helder, Augustus Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Henderson, Sir Alexander Muntz, Sir Philip A. Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Hogg, Lindsay Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Myers, William Henry Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hudson, George Bickersteth Nicol, Donald Ninian Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Johnstone, Heywood Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni,
Kemp, George Parker, Sir Gilbert Thornton, Percy M.
Keswick, William Percy, Earl Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Valentia, Viscount
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Plummer, Walter R. Walker, Col. William Hall
Lecky, Rt Hon William Edw. H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Pretyman, Ernest George Warde, Colonel C. E.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Webb, Colonel William George
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Purvis, Robert Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pym, C. Guy Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Randles, John S. Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Lnyd, Archie Kirkman Rankin, Sir James Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Remnant, James Farquharson Wylie, Alexander
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Macdona, John Cumraing Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Robinson, Brooke
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Malcolm, Ian Round, Rt. Hon. James TELLERS FOR THE AYES,—
Manners, Lord Cecil Royds, Clement Molyneux Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Rutherford, John
NOES.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Harmsworth, R. Leicester Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Runciman, Walter
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Schwann, Charles E.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Holland, Sir William Henry Shackleton, David James
Bell, Richard Horniman, Frederick John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brigg, John Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Broadhurst, Henry Kearley, Hudson E. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Lambert, George Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Langley, Batty Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Burns, John Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Soares, Ernest J.
Burt, Thomas Leng, Sir John Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants
Buxcon, Sydney Charles Lewis, John Herbert Stevenson, Francis S.
Caldwell, James Lloyd-George, David Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert Lough, Thomas Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, Sir. A (Glamorgan, E.)
Causton, Richard Knight M'Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Channing, Francis Allston M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Cremer, William Randal M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dalziel, James Henry Mansfield, Horace Rendall Wallace, Robert
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Mather, Sir William Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wason, Eugene
Edwards, Frank Moulton, John Fletcher White, George (Norfolk)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne Newnes, Sir George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fenwick, Charles Nussey, Thomas Willans Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Perks, Robert William Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Philipps, John Wynford Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Price, Robert John Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd
Furness, Sir Christopher Priestley, Arthur Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford Rea, Russell
Grant, Corrie Rickett, J. Compton TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

(10.25.) Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 100. (Division List, No. 463.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fardell, Sir T. George Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, George H. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Myers, William Henry
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fisher, William Hayes Nicholson, William Graham
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fison, Frederick William Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bailey, James (Walworth) FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Baird, John George Alexander Flannery, Sir Fortescue Parker, Sir Gilbert
Balcarres, Lord Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Flower, Ernest Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Forster, Henry William Plummer, Walter R.
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Galloway, William Johnson Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Banbury, Frederick George Gardner, Ernest Pretyman, Ernest George
Bartley, George C. T. Garfit, William Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Purvis, Robert
Bignold, Arthur Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets Pym, C. Guy
Bigwood, James Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Bill, Charles Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) Randles, John S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Rankin, Sir James
Bond, Edward Goschen, Hon. George Joachin Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Remnant, James Farquharson
Bousfield, William Robert Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Hambro, Charles Eric Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Robinson, Brooke
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfo'd Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Brymer, William Ernest Harris, Frederick Leverton Round, Rt. Hon. James
Bull, William James Heaton, John Henniker Royds, Clement Molyneux
Burdett-Coutts, W. Helder, Augustus Rutherford, John
Butcher, John George Henderson, Sir Alexander Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Carew, James Laurence Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Hogg, Lindsay Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hudson, George Bickersteth Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Johnstone, Heywood Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Chapman, Edward Kemp, George Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Charrington, Spencer Keswick, William Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Clive, Captain Perry A. Lawrence. W. M. F. (Liverpool) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Thornton, Percy M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham Valentia, Viscount
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Walker, Col. William Hall
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Loyd, Archie Kirkman Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Cranborne, Viscount Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Webb, Colonel William George
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E, (Taunton
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Macdona, John Cumming Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Crossley, Sir Savile M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Cubitt, Hon. Henry M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Malcolm, Ian Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Davenport, W. Bromley- Manners, Lord Cecil Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Wylie, Alexander
Denny, Colonel More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Morrison, James Archibald
Duke, Henry Edward Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Mount, William Arthur Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and Mr. Anstruther
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
NOES.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Bell, Richard Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brigg, John Burns, John
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Broadhurst, Henry Burt, Thomas
Buxton, Sydney Charles Lambert, George Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Caldwell, James Langley, Batty Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cameron, Robert Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shipman, Dr. John G.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Channing, Francis Allston Lloyd-George, David Soares, Ernest J.
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northant
Dalziel, James Henry Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Crae, George Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Edwards, Frank Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Mather, Sir William Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Fanquharson, Dr. Robert Morgan, Lloyd (Carmarthen Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wallace, Robert
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Moulton, John Fletcher Walton, John Lawson (Leeds. S.
Foster, Sir-Walter (Derby Co.) Newnes, Sir George Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fuller, J. M. F. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wason, Eugene
Furness, Sir Christopher Nussey, Thomas Willans White, George (Norfolk)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Perks, Robert William White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Grant, Corrie Philipps, John Wynford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Price, Robert John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Griffith, Ellis J. Priestley, Arthur Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rea, Russell Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Rickett, J. Compton Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Yoxall, James Henry
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Holland, Sir William Henry Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Horniman, Frederick John Runciman, Walter TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Schwann, Charles E. Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Kearley, Hudson E. Shackleton, David James

(10.42.) DR. MACNAMARA moved to omit all the words after "required" down to the words "to be provided" in order to insert the words ''to meet any deficiency in school places." At present, he said, the only ground on which new places might be provided was that there was a deficiency in school places. But under the Bill a new basis altogether was laid down, the scheme of the Bill being that, if the places were not satisfactory from the religious point of view, then the parents of thirty school children could come forward and ask for new places, While he sympathised with the desire of the Government to meet the wishes of people from a religious point of view, he opposed that new basis of school accommodation altogether; the only ground for supplying new places should be that there was an educational deficiency. The proposal of the Bill was extravagant from the business point of view, and grotesque from the educational point of view. If the Amendment were not accepted there would be the danger of small schools being multiplied, which would be expensive and very unsatisfactory—schools, too, which when they agreed (as he hoped they, would do), to a course of religious instruction which should be acceptable to every one would be left high and dry. Rather than multiply the small schools he would have the whole system of religious instruction revised from top to bottom. In any case he hoped the Government would agree that any scheme for the provision of new places should be based on the ground of the existence of an educational deficiency.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 4, to leave out from the word I 'required,' to the word 'and,' in line 6, and insert the words 'to meet any deficiencies in school places."'— (Dr. Macnamara.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'or that' stand part of the Clause."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

The hon. Member has certainly put his point with commendable brevity; but the question has been discussed at great length earlier in the evening, and, therefore, it would be an impertinence on my part to do more than remind the Committee of the views of the Government on the matter. The hon. Gentleman wants to retain the existing system. Under that system it would be possible for a Protestant district to be served by a Roman Catholic school, a Non conformist district to be served by an Anglican school, and another locality to be served by a board school, in which, under the law as it stands, the religious teaching which the inhabitants desired cannot be given. The Government think that such a system needs elasticity. I do not think the fears of the lion. Gentleman with regard to the multiplication of schools are well founded, for the burden on the ratepayers will act as a check to any movement in that direction think this is quite sufficient to check any inordinate desire to multiply schools. On the other hand, the Government are of the opinion that if there be unreasonable action on the part either of the local authority or on the part of the managers of the denominational school in respect of religious teaching, it will find a very wholesome check in the possibility of another school being built I think it will be a great reform to retain the words to which the hon. Gentleman objects, and though understand the importance of his object from an educational point of view, I cannot go so far as to accept his suggestion.

MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

said this Bill had already made great encroachments upon the ratepayers and taxpayers, and he thought it was time that some check ought to be put upon the expenditure under this Bill. This was a proposal which would be very severely felt, and the whole system of education would be made unpopular by the enormous expense to which the localities would be put. For that reason he thought that every safeguard ought to be put in the Bill to prevent extravagant expenditure. They had up to the present always objected to schools being built for the purpose of propagating any particular religion. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] This Bill was certainly a large encroachment upon the ratepayers and upon the taxpayers. [Renewed MINISTERIAL laughter.] He did not think hon. Members would be so anxious to laugh at the expenditure under this Bill when the country complained of it as they were at the present moment. The only people who would benefit by this Bill were those who were very rich and the poor man who had at a real grievance would not be assisted in the least. The large population of Nonconformists would not be able to get a school of their own denomination under this Bill, which would simply give to those who were very rich, enabling them to spend large sums of money out of the public funds. They ought to do everything they could to prevent these rich people spending the public funds on their own denomination, and the Amendment moved by his hon. friend would be a great step in that direction

*(10.50.) MR. FLETCHER MOULTON

said it would be a very great assistance to the Committee if the Attorney General or the Prime Minister would assist them by defining what was meant by a necessary school. At the end of Section 10 there was a reference to "a school actually in existence," but those words were so ambiguous that he had not been able to discover what meaning should be placed noon them. He did not know whether those winds meant at the date of the passing of the Act or the time when the dispute came on. He found it very difficult to discuss the Amendment now before the House, without knowing which of those two interpretations they were to take as being that which the Government intended

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

The words mean schools in existence at the time the question arises, and not at the passing of the Bill.

* MR. FLETCHER MOULTON

said that interpretation made it certain that the greatest curse to educational organisation would be brought about by this Bill, namely, the multiplication of small schools—too large to Ineffectively taught by one teacher, and too small to have more than one. If they looked carefully at the provisions which they were now discussing and the provisions of Section 10, they would see that it was quite possible for persons desirous of having a denominational school, to start a small school, and carry it on for a time. They could do this without in any way contravening the provisions of this Section, and when they got to the number of thirty scholars that school could not be held by the Board of Education to be unnecessary, and therefore, it must be for ever saddled on the ratepayers, and it must always be maintained out of the public funds. That was a thing very much to be deplored. He understood that this was suggested as being a concession in favour of Dissenters and Nonconformists. As a matter of fact it was the very opposite. One could see at once that those who, for many years past, had borne by their subscriptions the expenses of the Church schools would now be relieved of all need to subscribe for anything but the maintenance of the fabric of the school, and they would, therefore, without any strain upon themselves have funds which could be applied at any place to start such schools, and, by supporting and keeping them for a short time, they could ever afterwards get them supported by the nation.

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

But such a school must first run the gauntlet of Clause 9

* MR. FLETCHER MOULTON

said the school could be started as a voluntary school without any grant, and if it got up to thirty scholars it became under the words of the Act, "a school actually in existence." Having once got it into existence they could give notice and the Board of Education was then precluded from saying that it was an unnecessary school, because it was a school actually in existence with thirty scholars. He should like to call the very serious attention of the Committee to the nature of these provisions. To his mind they were the most vital provisions in the Bill, and they were the conditions which made the prospect most gloomy. He was not the least of a fanatic with regard to how religious education should be given. On the question of religious teaching he would give the very greatest possible latitude of choice, so that he could speak with perfect freedom on the subject. What he said was that the provisions which they were now discussing and those in the following Clause were provisions not in favour of religious feeling and not in favour even of religious sacrifice, but they were provisions in favour of the richest sect. What was it that they all accepted as the consequence of denominational schools?. They accepted—and this was put forward as much on the Government side of the House as upon the other—that the consequence of a denominational school was what is called a "denominational atmosphere," and that it is sought to create this atmosphere in order that those who went to that school should be led to join a particular denomination. In other words, those who had the power over a denominational school were privileged to exercise an influence over all the children who came there to turn them into members of that particular denomination. It was conceded also that they would very largely be the children of parents who did not belong to that particular denomination, and thus, by allowing a public elementary school to be denominational in return for the building being provided, they were actually putting up for sale the privilege of influencing in favour of a particular denomination the children of the poorer classes as long as time lasted. And how did they purchase this? They purchased this privilege by mere wealth. What had been the history of the voluntary schools? When they were first established those who started them bore a very large portion of the cost. Gradually those persons had been relieved of that charge, but they had a claim on their attention which neither those who sat on this or the other side of the House could shut their eyes to, namely, their past history, which was to a great extent a record of self-denial and earnest religious work. But the schools which they were discussing now had got no such history. They were the schools of the future and by these provisions they said that that sect which was rich enough to come and offer a school-house should in all cases have the privilege of proselytising amongst the children who lived near that school and that was to be done with public money. He had read over and over again the directions to the Board of Education a; to how they were to decide the appeals which came before them and he found that they were framed in such a way that only one answer could ever be given. They were told that in deciding this question to which the Amendment related they were to consider the interests of secular education. Seeing that it was entirely in the hands of the local authority and done by public money, and it was the same whichever class of school they had. Then they had to consider the wishes of the parents. But these would in all cases be divided. One thing must always be in favour of the denominational school, and that was the economy of the rates. That must be so, and of these three criteria by which the arbiter was to decide, one influenced him neither way, the other was divided, and the third was always in favour of the denominational school. And just as if that was not sufficient, the Government in this Bill had made those expenses which went to the building of the school to fall heavily on small areas in order that they might be much felt. And now, as they had learned that day, the Government were going to give to these very people who would have this heavy burden placed upon them, the greatest possible inducement to appeal against a nationally provided school the right to appeal. They would get an offer to have the building expenses borne by some rich denomination and then they would have this right of appeal. When they came before the Board of Education what would the Board say? They would say, "We are bound to consider the economy of the rates. How can we decide against them?" Therefore they were now passing a scheme whereby the local education authority would be paralysed when it wanted to meet out of the national funds the national wants of the area. It could be stopped with ten ratepayers who would be the very first to smart from these building expenses, and it could require a decision to be given. Considering these things it was a certainty that any denomination which was rich enough to offer school buildings must get the privilege of denominational education as long as those schools lasted. He asked, was that fair? Had they any right to sell the religious influence over the children of the poor to the richer sects? They could not shut their eyes to this fact. They might say that they liked a religious atmosphere. To that he would say "Very well, get it." But they had no right to make wealth tell for one feathers weight in the balance. Take for example his own constituency, which contained a very large number of the smaller sects of the Methodists. They were very poor. The greater part of the land in his constituency was held by the rich people, in fact the whole of it was held by people who belonged to the Church of England. Those people could come forward and offer the land for a school building, and that would at once the "economy of the rates." A school building would be offered and the Board of Education must take the school building, and why should the children of those poor Methodists have to go day after day to a school where it was intended by the House of Commons that there should be a constant and perpetual proselytising influence at work. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no:"] He was not using the word in any abusive sense, but "proselytising" was the only English word that he knew of which would describe the taking of young people before their opinions were formed and subjecting them to influences which led them away from the natural influences of their homes. Why were these poor children obliged to go to those schools? Simply because the wealth was in the hands of the Church, and because these children belonged to the poorer sect. They could not go and offer school buildings because the fathers w ere too poor. Consequently, all the apparent freedom which was given by these Clauses to all sects was completely denied to the poor sects. The consequence was that these poor people had to send their children to the schools of other denominations simply because their fathers were too poor to provide school buildings. If an Education Bill was to work smoothly, it must be because it appealed to the sense of fairness of the English people. That was the deepest sense which was set in the heart of an Englishman. If they did what they were now proposing, he was perfectly certain that there would be a feeling of unfairness rankling in the minds of those people, and it would be a just feeling, and a feeling which they could not say was unreasonable; and that feeling would be detrimental to the working of this Bill, and make the work of education a source of strife as long as these provisions lasted. By the Amendment which had been proposed they were cutting all these dangers out and allowing the Board of Education to decide whether there were enough places or not. Surely what was proposed to be done by the Amendment had nothing whatever to do with denominational or undenominational teaching. Let the Board Of Education decide a thing which was only a matter of statistics, of which it had had some experience, and in such matters the Board would be a good arbiter.

(11.7.) LORD HUGH CECIL (Greenwich)

said the hon. Member had made one of the most unfair speeches to which he had ever listened. The hon. Member had repeated again—until, as he should have thought, the contradiction of it would have now become tedious—the old charge that the Church of England desired the use of these schools for the purpose, of converting people from their own way of thinking. [An HON. MEMBER: "So they do !"] That charge had over and over again been repudiated. The hon. Member went on to say that the only principle which was to guide the Board of Education in this matter was economy of the rates, and that with the Bill before him which said in express terms that the first consideration was to be the interests of secular instruction, and the second the wishes of the parents. It was perfectly clear that if this Amendment was carried the Board of Education would be entitled to consider neither the interests of secular education nor the wishes of the parents. The hon. Member opposite had just put forward an argument which ruled out the three considerations provided for in Clause 10

* MR. FLETCHER MOULTON

No, two out of the three

LORD HUGH CECIL

said that one of those considerations was the wishes of the parents, and yet the hon. Member had the controversial audacity to come forward in the defence of parents' rights. He spoke on behalf of poor Methodists who were dragged into Church schools and proselytised against their wills. That was one of the very things the Board of Education were enjoined to consider. They had to consider the feelings of the parents before they considered the question of wealth, about which the hon. Member had poured forth a great deal of rhetoric intended to be pathetic, but which was I absolutely nauseous. If the controversy was to be carried on by imputing to opponents a desire to use their wealth in order to convert persons to their religious way of thinking, it would create a great sense of bitterness. He repudiated any such desire on the part of the Church of England. The Roman Catholics did succeed in providing their schools, and they were the denomination most anxious for this particular Clause. It was not a clause to which the Church of England attached great importance, but it was one to which the Roman Catholics attached great importance. They had poor districts, and they were reasonably anxious to provide for the wants of their people. He could not conceive why hon. Members opposite should persist in ignoring the fact that a great part of the population of this country, Roman Catholics and members of the Church of England, genuinely desired to have their children brought up in their own faith. The local authority was entitled to make provision to meet any case of difficulty. The only other part of the Clause to which the hon. Member took objection was that which provided that people who desired to make provision for children of their own faith should not be forbidden to do so

MR. TREVELYAN

said the Attorney General had stated in reply to the hon. Member for the Launceston Division that by a school actually in existence was meant a school actually in existence at the time that a question arose. If, therefore, a school was found to be in existence, and there were thirty scholars in it, the managers might claim a public grant, and the local authority could not refuse it.

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

said if the school came into existence after the passing of the Act, it would be subject to the conditions imposed by Clause 9

MR. TREVELYAN

said that was an important omission, and it was necessary to make that interpretation clear. Unless that was m de perfectly clear, numbers of small schools might be built, thirty children put into them, and grants claimed

MR. LOUGH

said the Amendment provided two things—that the State schools in this country should be provided in accordance with the number of children to be provided for, and that schools should not be provided if not required by the number of children for whom the State should care. He ventured to say that these two principles governed the action of the State in every civilised country in the world. What was the great reform suggested by the Prime Minister? It was that gradually each sect might build a separate school for its own purposes. He thought he had not described the system unfairly. There was not a country in the world where there were so many sects as in England, and each of these sects could now build a little school of its own in every parish. He supposed this was the right hon. Gentleman's way of meeting the grievances of the Nonconformists, who complained that in 8,000 parishes they were obliged to send their children to the school of another denomination over which the State had no control. The local education authority would have control over secular education, and it would have representation on the boards of management. What was proposed was that the children should be broken up into sets, and that small schools should be multiplied, with the result that the educational facilities of the country would be weakened and reduced. He regarded Clause 9 as the worst in the Bill. It swept away the solemn obligation resting upon the local authority to provide for every child. It was a Clause which would develop the sectarian differences from which already this country suffered more than any country in the world.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich had in the course of his speech indulged in language rather more discourteous than usual in his references to the learned Gentleman. The noble Lord had taken the case of the Roman Catholics. It was a very favourite controversial device of hon. Gentlemen opposite to cite the case of Roman Catholics. They knew very well that it was essentially different. There was no charge of proselytising brought against the Roman Catholics. The essential difference between the Roman Catholic and the Anglican schools was that the Catholic schools were really Catholic schools, while the Anglican schools were not Anglican schools. In Catholic schools they would not find more than one per cent, of the children who were not Catholic children. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] He did not mean to say that they would not find a school here and there where there were not more, but taking these schools generally throughout the country they would not find more than one percent, who were not Catholics. How did that bear on proselytizing? It was all very well for the noble Lord to take a high line, but he either ignored or did not know the facts. It was within the knowledge of almost every Member that in Anglican schools inducements which were not spiritual were brought to bear on children to persuade them to quit the faith of their fathers and become members of the Anglican Church. In almost every school which he knew in Wales the teachers were Nonconformists who had been lured from the Nonconformist faith by the offer of a position in that school as a teacher. The teachers had been kidnapped. There were 60,000 of these teacherships, and they were used for proselytising by means which were not religious or spiritual, but purely temporal. The money of the State was used for the purpose of buying the children before they knew what they were about. Nothing but the efficiency of education ought to be considered Suppose there were five sects in a parish—he understood the Prime Minister was willing that each should have its school. Was that the noble Lord's view?

LORD HUGH CECIL

It will depend on the circumstances of the case.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

asked what were the circumstances of the cases The Prime Minister was right and logical, and he did not talk about the circumstances of the case. If one sect had a right to a school, each of the five sects had an equal right. What would that mean in several parts of England and Wales if, where there were four or five sects, more or less equal, each demanded a school? The whole parish was just sufficient to provide one decent school, yet five little miserable seminaries would be run. But it was said some must make a sacrifice. Who would have to make the sacrifice? The poorest sect of the lot. As a rule, the richest sect, which insisted upon its pound of flesh, was the very sect which did not send its children to these schools. The fact was that everybody in the parish, for the sake of education, had got to make a sacrifice. What was wanted was equal sacrifice on the part of every denomination, and one school for all those districts instead of many. The Committee had heard a great deal from the Prime Minister about the Scottish system. Why had the reference to Scotland been dropped? Because hon. Members on the Opposition side had shown an inclination to accept it. The Scottish system was a dialectical "try on" by the Prime Minister. This was a case similar to the Scottish system which took into account how many schools were needed and their efficiency, and he therefore invited the Prime Minister to try the Scottish system in this Bill

SIR WILLIAM ALLAN (Gateshead)

said he should like the Prime Minister, who was a countryman of his own, to end the whole of the debate on the Education Bill by standing up and asking the House to accept the Scotch system. He had never attempted to interfere in the debates in any shape or form; but he had listened to all the speeches, and he could only say he was sorry to see so much sectarianism introduced into them. They in Scotland knew nothing of that whatever. Their education was as their sentiments were—free. It was an evidence of their freedom from the thralldom of ecclesiasticism and sacerdotalism. As a countryman of the Prime Minister, he wanted him to stand up and ask the Committee to accept the, Scottish system. He believed the Committee would accept it. By that means the whole controversy would be ended, and they would get away much sooner than they anticipated. He had heard hon. Gentlemen opposite arguing the claims of their sect at the expense of other sects. That was not fair or right. He objected to education being allied to religion or to politics. His principle was—and it was the Scottish system—that education should be national and entirely apart from religion or politics. On that ground alone, the Committee ought to rise to the occasion, and put education in England and Wales on the same lofty basis as it was in Scotland. The Prime Minister knew exactly what the Scottish system was. The right hon. Gentleman knew the freedom that was there; and that there was no sectarianism or quarrelling there Why had they it in England? Were they civilised in England yet? The Prime Minister knew Scotland better than he did, but he was an older Scotsman than the right hon. Gentleman. He was educated partly in a parish school, and he knew all about it. The Prime Minister knew all about it too. Let the right hon. Gentleman give the same system to England, and England would be happy. Why did he not do it? It would get over all the difficulty. There was no use in wasting the time of hon. Members when the issue was so simple. Why did the right, hon. Gentleman not do it? He would tell the Committee. It was because ministers had the Church influence prodding them on to courses which were antagonistic to the true principles of education. There was no doubt about that. He would appeal, as a Scotsman to a Scotsman, and he would ask the Prime Minister to say that he would introduce the Scottish system into the Bill; and then all this desultory debate would end. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] Hon. Members opposite cheered that; but would they support the Prime Minister if he did? They would not. Their sectarianism and churchmanism would prevent them voting for it; and the right hon. Gentleman knew that. He would ask the Prime Minister, however, to pass them by, and introduce, the Scottish system. Then the Bill would go through quickly. But if the right hon. Gentleman refused, Nonconformists and Scotsmen would fight it to the bitter end.

(11.38) MR. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided—Ayes, 187; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 464)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Mount, William Arthur
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, George H. Muntz, Sir Philip A
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fison, Frederick William Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose Myers, William Henry
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Nicholson, William Graham
Baird, John George Alexander Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balcarres, Lord Forster, Henry William Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Galloway, William Johnson Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Garfit, William Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Percy, Earl
Banbury, Frederick George Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bartley, George C. T Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Plummer, Walter R
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Gore, Hon. S. F, Ormsby-(Linc.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Pretyman, Ernest George
Bigwood, James Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bill, Charles Goulding, Edward Alfred Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Bond, Edward Guthrie, Walter Murray Randles, John S
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Hall, Edward Marshall Rankin, Sir James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hambro, Charles Eric Remnant, James Farquharson
Brymer, William Ernest Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm Ridley, Hon. M W. (Stalybridge
Burdett-Coutts, W Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Carew, James Laurence Hare, Thomas Leigh Robinson, Brooke
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H Harris, Frederick Leverton Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Hay, Hon. Claude George Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Heaton, John Henniker Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Henderson, Sir Alexander Rutherford, John
Chamberlain, Rt Hon. J. (Birm. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Chapman, Edward Hogg, Lindsay Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Charrington, Spencer Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Johnstone, Heywood Stewart, Sir Mark J. M' Taggart
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E Kemp, George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Keswick, William Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Thornton, Percy M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Valentia, Viscount
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Shef'ld
Cox, Irwin, Edward Bainbridge Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Cranborne, Viscount Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Walker, Col. William Hall
Cripps, Charles Alfred Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S Warde, Colonel C. E
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Webb, Colonel William George
Crossley, Sir Savile Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E (Taunton
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Davenport, W. Bromley Macdona, John Cumming Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Maconochie, A. W Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Denny, Colonel M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Wylie, Alexander
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Malcolm, Ian Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon Manners, Lord Cecil Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Duke, Henry Edward Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Morrell, George Herbert Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart Morrison, James Archibald
NOES.
Allan, Sir Wm. (Gateshead) Harmsworth, R. Leicester Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc, Stroud Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale Runciman, Walter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Shackleton, David James
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B Holland, Sir William Henry Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brigg, John Horniman, Frederick John Shipman, Dr. John G
Broadhurst, Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kearley, Hudson E Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Labouchere, Henry Soares, Ernest J
Burns, John Lambert, George Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants
Buxton, Sydney Charles Langley, Batty Stevenson, Francis S
Caldwell, James Leng, Sir John Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Loyd-George, David Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Causton, Richard Knight Lough, Thomas Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Channing, Francis Allston Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings
Cremer, William Randal M'Crae, George Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dalziel, James Henry M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Mansfield, Horace Rendall Warner, Thomas Courtenay T
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mather, Sir William Wason, Eugene
Edwards, Frank Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) White, George (Norfolk)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Fenwick, Charles Moulton, John Fletcher Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fuller, J. M. F Norton, Captain Cecil William Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Furness, Sir Christopher Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Philipps, John Wynford
Grant, Corrie Priestley, Arthur
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick) Rea, Russell TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Griffiths, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Mr. William M'Arthur.

(11.50) Question put accordingly, "That the words 'or that' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided—Ayes, 183; Noes, 82 (Division List No. 465)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Chapman, Edward Finch, George H.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Charrington, Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Clare, Octavius Leigh Fisher, William Hayes
Anson, Sir William Reynell Clive, Captain Percy A. Fison, Frederick William
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Forster, Henry William
Bain, Colonel James Robert Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Galloway, William Johnson
Baird, John George Alexander Compton, Lord Alwyne Garfit, William
Balcarres, Lord Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Godson, Sir Augustus Fr'derick
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rHml'ts
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cranborne, Viscount Gore, Hn G. R.C Ormsby-(Salop
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Cripps, Charles Alfred Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)
Banbury, Frederick George Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Bartley, George C. T Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Crossley, Sir Savile Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bignold, Arthur Cubitt, Hon. Henry Guthrie, Walter Murray
Bigwood, James Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hall, Edward Marshall
Bill, Charles Davenport, Wm. Bromley Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Hambro, Charles Eric
Bond, Edward Denny, Colonel Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Hare, Thomas Leigh
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon Harris Frederick Leverton
Brymer, William Ernest Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E Hay, Hon. Claude George
Burdett-Coutts, W Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Heaton, John Henniker
Carew, James Laurence Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Henderson, Sir Alexander
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H Dyke, Rt. Hon Sir William Hart Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Hogg, Lindsay
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Muntz, Sir Philip A. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Johnstone, Heywood Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Kemp, George Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Keswick, William Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Myers, William Henry Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Nicholson, William Graham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Nicol, Donald Ninian Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway N. Thornton, Percy M.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert Wellesley Valentia, Viscount
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Percy, Earl Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Platt-Higgins, Frederick Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Plummer, Walter R. Walker, Col. William Hall
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Pretyman, Ernest George Warde, Colonel. C. E.
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Webb, Colonel William George
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Purvis, Robert Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. Taunton
Macdona, John Cumming Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts
Maconochie, A. W. Randles, John S. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Rankin, Sir James Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
M'Iver, Sir Lewis Edinb'rgh, W. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wilson-Todd. Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Malcolm, Ian Remnant, James Farquharson Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Manners, Lord Cecil Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge Wylie, Alexander
Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
More, Robert. Jasper (Shropshire) Robinson, Brooke Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Morrell, George Herbert Round, Rt. Hon. James
Morrison, James Archibald Royds, Clement Molyneux TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Rutherford, John Sir Alexander Acland- Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Mount, William Arthur Simeon, Sir Barrington
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
NOES.
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Harmsworth, R. Leicester Roberts, John H. (Denbigs.)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Runcimen, Walter
Brigg, John Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Shackleton, David James
Broadhurst, Henry Holland, Sir William Henry Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Horniman, Frederick John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kearley, Hudson E. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Soares, Ernest J.
Cameron, Robert Langley, Batty Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants
Campbell Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Stevenson, Francis S.
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Strachey, Sir Edward
Channing, Francis Allston Lough, Thomas Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Cremer, William Randal M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E)
Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Wallace, Robert
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Edwards, Frank Mather, Sir William Wason, Eugene
Evans Sir Francis H (Maidstone Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) White, George (Norfolk)
Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, Luke, (York, E. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Moulton, John Fletcher Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fuller, J. M. F. Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Furness, Sir Christopher Norton, Capt. Cecil William Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Philipps, John Wynford
Grant, Corrie Priestley, Arthur
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick Rea, Russell TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton Dr. Macnamara and Mr. Trevelyan
Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

It being after Midnight, the Chairmen proceeded to interrupt the Business.

(12.0) Mr. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "that the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put,"

Question put, "that the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 181; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 466.)
AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fellowes Hon. Ailwyn Edward Mount, William Arthur
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Finch, George H. Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fison, Frederick William Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose- Myers, William Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Nicholson, William Graham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Nicol, Donald Ninian
Baird, John George Alexander Forster, Henry William Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Balcarres, Lord Galloway, William Johnson Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Garfit, William Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Banbury, Frederick George Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop Plummer, Walter R.
Bartley, George C. T. Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Pretyman, Ernest George
Bignold, Arthur Goulding, Edward Alfred Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bignold, James Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Purvis, Robert
Bill, Charles Guthrie, Walter Murray Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hall, Edward Marshall Randles, John S.
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Rankin, Sir James
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Hambro, Charles Eric Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm. Remnant, James Farquharson
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'rd Ridley, Hn. M, W. (Stalybridge
Brymer, William Ernest Hare, Thomas Leigh Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Harris, Frederick Leverton Robinson, Brooke
Carew, James Laurence Hay, Hon. Claude George Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Henderson, Sir Alexander Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Rutherford, John
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hogg, Lindsay Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Chapman, Edward Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Charrington, Spencer Johnstone, Heywood Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Kemp, George Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Keswick, William Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Thornton, Percy M.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Valentia, Viscount
Compton, Lord Alwyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Cranborne, Viscount Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Walker, Col. William Hall
Cripps, Charles Alfred Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Warde, Col C. E.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Webb, Colonel William George
Crossley, Sir Savile Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Macdona, John Cumming Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Davenport, William Bromley- Maconochie, A. W. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Denny, Colonel M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Malcolm, Ian Wylie, Alexander
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Manners, Lord Cecil Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Morrell, George Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Morrison, James Archibald Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
NOES.
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Brigg, John Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Broadhurst, Henry Buxton, Sydney Charles
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Caldwell, James
Cameron, Robert Kearley, Hudson E. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lambert, George Shipman, Dr. John G.
Causton, Richard Knight Langley, Batty Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Channing, Francis Allston Leng, Sir John Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Cremer, William Randal Lewis, John Herbert Soares, Ernest J.
Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Crae, George Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E)
Edwards, Frank M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings
Fenwick, Charles Mather, Sir William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fuller, J. M. F. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wason, Eugene
Furness, Sir Christopher Moulton, John Fletcher White, George (Norfolk)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Norman, Henry White, Luke, (York, E. R.)
Grant, Corrie Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Crey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Griffith, Ellis. J. Philipps, John Wynford Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Priestley, Arthur Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Rea, Russell
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale Rickett, J. Compton
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Holland, Sir William Henry Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Horniman, Frederick John Runciman, Walter
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Shackleton, David James

(12.13) Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 467.)

Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Valentia, Viscount
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Remnant, James Farquharson Vincent, Col. Sir C E H. (Sheffield
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge Walker, Col. William Hall
Myers, William Henry Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H
Nicholson, William Graham Robinson, Brooke Warde, Colonel C. E.
Nicol, Donald Ninian Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter Webb, Colonel William George
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Round, Rt. Hon. James Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Royds, Clement Molyneux Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Peel, Hn. W. Robert Wellesley Rutherford, John Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Percy, Earl Simeon, Sir Barrington Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Wylie, Alexander
Pretyman, Ernest George Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Purvis, Robert Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Randles, John S. Thornton, Percy M. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Rankin, Sir James Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
NOES.
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Runciman, Walter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Shackleton, David James
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Holland, Sir William Henry Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Brigg, John Horniman, Frederick John Shipman, Dr. John G.
Broadhurst, Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kearley, Hudson E. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Lambert, George Soares, Ernest J.
Buxton, Sydney Charles Langley, Batty Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R (Northants
Caldwell, James Leng, Sir John Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lough, Thomas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Causton, Richard Knight M'Crae, George Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Channing, Francis Allston M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Cremer, William Randal M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dalziel, James Henry Mansfield, Horace Rendall Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Mather, Sir William Wason, Eugene
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen White, George (Norfolk)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Edwards, Frank Moulton, John Fletcher Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, Charles Norton, Capt. Cecil William Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Philipps, John Wynford
Goddard, Daniel Ford Priestley, Arthur
Grant, Corrie Rea, Russell TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Mr. William M'Arthur.
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.

Adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Twelve o'clock.