§ 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,411,250, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and working expenses of the Post Office Telegraph Service."
§ 2. "That a sum, not exceeding £5,961,815, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Post Office Services, the Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government Annuities and Insurances, and the collection of the Post Office Revenue."
§ Resolutions read a second time.
§ Second Resolution—
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ *(6.50.) MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)complained that the Post Office had not taken advantage of the new railway to Mallaig to accelerate the mail service to the western islands. He reminded the hon. Gentleman that in 1896 the Government granted£260,000 for a railway which was to open up the western islands and develop the fisheries, and other purposes; and the people of the islands had been very disappointed that the Post Office had failed to take advantage of the new route, for the purpose of accelerating the transit of the mails. He asked the hon. Gentleman to bring pressure to bear upon the North British Railway Company, which, he thought, had treated the Post Office and the public in a most unsatisfactory manner.
§ MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, S.)said he had some time ago presented an extensively-signed petition from the people of Mullinavat asking for increased 836 postal and telegraphic facilities. With regard to telegraphic facilities, something had been done; but with regard to postal facilities, the Post Office had decided that they could not afford to give what was asked for. Mullinavat was a large and important district, and deserved better treatment than it received. Two days were required to convey letters to and from the county town, which was only ten miles away. In spite of the reply he had received to his petition, he felt compelled, under all the circumstances, to bring this matter before the House, in the hope that the hon. Gentleman would endeavour to remedy what undoubtedly was an admitted grievance.
§ MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE (Essex, Saffron Walden)drew attention to the fact that, although within forty miles of London, the large agricultural community in his constituency complained that they could not obtain copies of the daily Press and keep themselves in touch with the current prices in London, owing to the fact that the mails left London just before the London papers were published, and the Post Office authorities did not consider the district of sufficient importance to justify a second delivery. This was a real grievance, because it was necessary for the farmers in this district to keep in touch with the London prices, as well as those of the immediate district. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would see his way to put an end to this state of things and give them better postal facilties.
§ MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.)said he wished for a few moments to invite the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury to the cause of postmen on fixed wages. As the hon. Gentleman was no doubt aware, there were some thousands of these men in the employment of the Post Office receiving a weekly salary in Ireland of 15s. and in the rest of the United Kingdom of 16s. Now, surely that was a wage which the Post Office ought not to offer to any man who held the position of a postman. Even for unskilled labour it was too low a rate of remuneration, and it must be evident that in the case of a man with a family such a wretched pittance must often involve pangs of hunger. That was not the only grievance which 837 rural postmen laboured under. Should one of them unfortunately become ill, and should he be attached to a Post Office where no Government medical officer was employed, he had to find out of his wretchedly low wage not only the cost of medical attendance, but he was called upon to send in weekly a medical certificate as to the state of his health. How on earth could he afford to pay for such a certificate out of his 15s. or 16s. a week? He did hope that the Secretary to the Treasury would investigate these matters, and see if he could not possibly hold out some prospect of an increase of wages. Let him remember and try to realise what was the lot of the rural postman. It was a hard life. He had to trudge the roads in all seasons, he was exposed to all kinds of weather, however inclement, and often he was occupied for from twelve to fourteen hours daily. Was it not a monstrous thing that the Post Office should expect men to do such work for such a miserable wage, and was the hon. Gentleman aware that this system of making appointments at a fixed wage had been recently re-introduced on an extended scale, notwithstanding the fact that the Tweedmouth Committee had condemned it? There was one other point to which he wished to call the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury, and, through him, of the Postmaster General. Very recently a new regulation had been issued on the subject of special leave. Now, postmen and other classes of officials employed by the Department had secured the right to federate and organise, and their right to do so had been recognised by the authorities. The postmen had a federation, with a membership of 25,000, and, of course, there was a great deal of work to do in connection with that organisation. Its affairs were administered by an executive of sixteen men, drawn from all parts of the United Kingdom. In the early days of its existence, and, indeed, until very recently, men were allowed special leave to the extent of from twenty-five to thirty days per year in order to enable them to do work of their Federation. The meetings of their executive were held at different places, and often entailed very long journeys, while a large amount of business had to be transacted. Under the new regulations which had been promulgated, the amount of special leave 838 allowed to any one man had now been limited to ten days, and he could assure the hon. Gentleman that that amount of time was absolutely inadequate for the proper working of the organisation. A suggestion had been made that at least twenty days leave should be granted, and he did not think there was anything unreasonable in that. It should be remembered that the Post Office were not put to any expense in the matter. If a man obtained special leave in order to attend the Federation business, he had to provide a substitute, to be approved by his superior officials, to do his duty during his absence, and he himself had to pay that substitute. The Department was not put to the expense of a single penny, and under the circumstances he could not understand why there had been a curtailment of the privilege to ten days. Was there any reason whatever why the limit should not be extended to twenty days? He failed to see any. He would again urge the Secretary to the Treasury to give his earnest attention to the questions he had brought under his notice, and especially to the subject of fixed wage appointments. Many of the men who were appointed under this system were old soldiers, and had families to support, and he did think it was monstrous that they should receive such a wretchedly low wage. The Department ought literally to be ashamed of itself, and it certainly need not accentuate the grievance by insisting that when a man was unfortunately ill he should be put to the expense of sending in a medical certificate signed by a private practitioner as to the state of his health. He was sure the hon. Gentleman must sympathise with the hard lot of these men, and he trusted that he would see his way to hold out to them some prospect of amelioration, so that they might be encouraged to become more attentive and more zealous in the discharge of their duties. They often had charge of letters of great value. As a body they were faithful and honest men, and they ought not to be subjected to the temptation which undoubtedly a man on 16s. a week had to contend against.
§ DR. AMBROSE (Mayo, W.)wanted to know the reason why not a stone of 839 the new Post Office building at Mullinavat bad been laid, although its erection had been promised two years ago.
§ (7.2.) MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINMost of the points raised by the hon. Members are matters for personal communication rather than for debate in this House. I desire to give the fullest information possible, and to satisfy hon. Members that the Post Office is doing its best. I do not think, however, that it is expected of me that I should give, without previous notice, details of the postal arrangements in the most remote parishes in the country. I do not know what the standard of the hon. Member for West Mayo may be, but I imagine, judging by population and the amount of correspondence, that Mullinavat is not the most important town in Ireland. If the hon. Member will put his complaint in writing, I will inquire into it. I will communicate with the hon. Member for the Saffron Walden Division on the point he raised. A question was put to me by the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty with which I am able to deal, because I have had so many complaints from him as to the deficiencies in the mail facilities to the Western Highlands and Islands, I have never pretended that the present mail arrangements are in all respects satisfactory, but unfortunately the Postmaster General has not the powers which the hon. Gentleman seems to conceive he has. The North British Railway Company's light railway to Mallaig was not constructed on postal grounds, and it is impossible for me, at the present time, to impose conditions on the Railway Company after the money voted by Parliament for that railway has been paid over. The whole question of postal communication with the Western Highlands and Islands is extremely difficult, and I do not think we should gain anything if we forced the carriage of the mails on to a new line instead of the present one. The Postmaster General will, however, lose no opportunity that may come in his way to improve the service, if that can be done without unduly burdening the Post Office. The hon. Member for West Wicklow has complained of the remuneration given to rural postmen both in Ireland and in this country. He spoke of them having to work very long hours at a wage of 15s. in Ireland, and 16s. in the rest of the United Kingdom. I think 840 he is under some misapprehension as to the number of hours these men work. At any rate, a good deal of the time they are off duty. It sometimes happens that a man has a walk to reach the limit of which only takes up a short time, and yet he has to remain at the end of it the greater part of the day, returning only in the evening with the letters which have been posted during the day. Many of these men have occupations of their own, and utilise their spare time in pursuit of them, and it cannot therefore be said that they spend the day in the service of the Post Office. In any case, we have, in fixing the wages, to look at the nature of the employment, and to have regard to the rate of remuneration for nearly similar employment outside the Post Office. The hon. Gentleman speaks of a wage of 15s. or 16s. a week as not being a living wage. I at once grant that we ought to treat rural postmen, as all other servants of the State, fairly, having regard to the nature of their employment. But any desire I might have to be generous at the expense of the general taxpayer of the country is necessarily checked by my feeling of responsibility toward the taxpayer. I have no right to unnecessarily burden him in order to confer exceptional favours upon Government servants.
§ MR. JAMES O'CONNORYou tax him in order to give doles to the landlords.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI do not think we need enter into that subject now. I come next to the question raised by the hon. Member with regard to the requirement of weekly medical certificates when a postal servant is sick. I would like to point out that sick leave on a very generous scale is given in the Post Office, and in no service in the world is it possible to accept the mere ipse dixit of an official that he is ill and unable to discharge his duty. We must guard the public service against malingering, and the only way in which we can do that is by insisting on having a medical certificate. It is not possible for the Post Office to have medical officers of its own in all parts of the country. Where we have one, our 841 employees get free medical attendance. But in other cases they have to call in their own medical officer.
§ MR. JAMES O'CONNORAre not all the higher officials in the Post Office supplied with free medical service?
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINAt certain offices every servant is entitled to free medical attendance; but at other offices, where we have no Departmental medical officer, they have to find their own medical attendants. There only remains the question of special leave for me to deal with. The hon. Member asked if I could see my way to recommending that officials of the Post Office who desire to attend meetings of the Executives of the various postal trade unions should be given twenty days special leave for that purpose, in the course of a year, instead of the ten days now allowed. No, Sir, I do not think I can hold out any hope that the Postmaster General will modify the regulation which he has recently issued. Let the House bear in mind that these servants of the Post Office have a fortnight's leave on full pay in the course of twelve months. And, in addition to that fortnight, which they may employ in any manner they like, they are allowed to take not more than ten days special leave, for which they get no pay, and during which they have to provide a substitute. Although the Post Office may not lose pecuniarily by their absence from duty, it does lose in efficiency if some of its servants are constantly away from their regular employment, doing work outside the Post Office. I think it is not too much to ask, when we give fourteen days leave on full pay and ten days special leave without pay, that the councils of these various unions should, on their part, so arrange their meetings as to enable the members to attend them without further interference with the discharge of their duty to the Post Office. It is a not ungenerous arrangement which we have made, and I can assure the House that the Postmaster General feels bound, in the interests of the efficiency of the service, to maintain in force this special leave regulation.
§ *(7.10.) MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton)said the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had referred to many postal grievances to which attention had often been drawn in that House, but he could not find in any of his remarks any fresh argument in support of the present arrangements, which, as far as the postal service was concerned, were felt in many respects to be the source of much injustice. The first argument he put forward was that he could not be expected to be generous as regards the pay of postal servants at the expense of the general taxpayer. The answer to that was clear. The State ought to be a model employer. They did not ask for excessive wages, but they did demand that Post Office servants should receive remuneration on a par with that paid for similar work by outside bodies or persons. They felt very strongly on this question. They were of opinion that an increase of pay would not necessarily involve any addition to the burden of the taxpayers. It could be covered by the better administration of the Department. Those who took an interest in the great army of postal employees were well aware there were numerous cases in which, by a change of regulations and the introduction of small reforms, most irritating and most unreasonable conditions imposed upon the men might be got rid of. They thought that the best means—the most expeditious and the most equitable manner of ascertaining the true facts—would be the appointment of a Committee to investigate the whole of the circumstances. They were always told, when they asked for such a Committee, that they had already had one, and that the findings of the Tweedmouth Committee had established finality. But he would remind his hon. friend that there could be no real defence of that statement, because a very few months after that Committee had reported, the Postmaster General, the representatives of the men, and a number of the Members of this House, were closeted together in a Committee room in order to revise the findings of the Committee. Surely circumstances had arisen during the four or five years which had since elapsed to justify reconsideration of the whole position. There was very substantial proof 843 that the conditions under which a great number of men in the postal service now lived had materially altered in that time. Rents had risen considerably, as was shown by figures relating to parts of the metropolis which were largely populated by postal employees which he had recently quoted to the House. Yet the Department had taken no account of that fact, and whenever an appeal was made to it they received nothing but vague assurances that all was well. Those who desired to secure the efficiency of the public service, and that the State should employ willing and satisfied servants, would cont nue to press for the appointment of a Select Committee, and he believed that in the long run they would get the satisfaction to which they were entitled. There were a great number of other matters connected with postal administration with which he would like to deal, and he would not have ventured to trespass on the time of the House in regard to them had it been possible to get anything like direct information on the subject from the hon. Gentleman who represented the Postmaster General in that House. He felt bound to take that opportunity of again drawing attention to the very great public inconvenience which occurred, and the large inroads made upon the time of the House, by the absence from it of the Postmaster General, who was the Minister in charge of the third largest spending Department of the State. So long as his hon. friend was in the unpleasant position of having to represent the Postmaster General, so long would there be a feeling that they could not criticise sufficiently the administration of the Department or get satisfactory replies to the cases they advanced. He spoke of the position of the hon. Gentleman as being unpleasant, for he could imagine nothing could be more unpleasant than to have to deal with answers to questions in respect of matters with which he had no discretion. If he were to exercise any discretion, or to give a distinct pledge or assurance, he would at once be trenching upon the Ministerial responsibility of the Postmaster General. There had been many protests made in that House as to the absence from it of the Minister responsible for the administration of the Post 844 Office, and he would remind hon. Members that when they had the Postmaster General in the House of Commons, as in the case of Mr. Raikes, postal questions were promptly and efficiently dealt with, not only to the satisfaction of Members interested in the subject, but, above all, to the satisfaction of Post Office servants themselves. The arrangement was conducive in the fullest sense to the efficiency of the service, and advantageous to the trade of the country and the empire. He had on one or two occasions brought under the notice of the hon. Gentleman the question of the regulations imposed upon those postal employees who belonged to the Volunteer force. He had never as yet been able to get a satisfactory answer, and he was tempted to ask if the time was not coming when it would be necessary for the Postmaster General to lay down a rule that postal servants should not be Volunteers. Under the new regulations a postal servant had to find a substitute when he desired to do his duty as a Volunteer, and to attend the annual trainings of his regiment. Many of these men were in receipt of a wage of 18s. a week, but very often it cost as much as 30s. to provide a substitute, because in that case they had to pay on the basis of time and a quarter for the performance of such duties by a substitute. The result was that, while giving their time and energy to the service of their country as Volunteers, they had to pay money out of their own pockets, and it must be well known that men getting but 18s. a week had scarcely any chance of saving, and were not likely to have any funds to draw upon to provide substitutes whilst they were undergoing their military training. The Postmaster General ought to set an example to all other employers, and to give facilities to the men in his Department to serve in the ranks of the auxiliary forces. He had a still stronger ground of complaint. A certain number of postal servants had served in the Army and passed into the reserve, and had been called upon to rejoin the colours during the present war. Notices were issued by the Postmaster General, and posted in numerous offices throughout the kingdom, asking other men not Army Reservists to volunteer for active service, 845 and describing the terms of remuneration as well as the condition under which at the close of the war they would be allowed to return to their situations in the Post Office. A number of men, on the faith of those promises, proceeded to the seat of war. And what did they find? Some of them were only paid at the rate of 1s. a day, whereas and again others ordinary line pay plus engineers' pay others received 5s. daily; the consequence was that many of them felt that they were unfairly treated, and rightly looked to the Postmaster General to exercise his influence with the Secretary for War to secure for them fair all - round treatment. The Postmaster General simply shrugged his shoulders, and said it had nothing to do with him, as it was a matter which solely concerned the War Office. But he would tell him that private employers had successfully intervened in such cases, and he held in his hand——
§ * MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The question of the Army pay given to postmen at the war does not arise on this Vote.
* MR. CLAUDEHAYsaid he, of course, accepted the ruling of the Speaker and would pass on to another branch of the postal difficulty. He had already alluded to the fact that they were unable in that House to get satisfactory replies to inquiries addressed to the Postmaster General. The practice was, when they put a general question, to ask for a detailed statement, and when they gave detailed a statement they simply received a general reply. At that he thought they had just cause to complain. Whenever he put a question he had always taken great pains to substantiate his facts, and it had been his unfortunate experience that he had never been able to get any acknowledgment from the Postmaster General that a grievance existed without first forwarding a series of long, argumentative letters, but he had succeeded in obtaining an acknowledgement from the Postmaster General that a reply given to him in the House was in correct.
It being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned.
§ Debate to be resumed tomorrow.