HC Deb 10 March 1902 vol 104 cc963-81

1. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 420,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,940,400, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, Allowances, and other Charges, of His Majesty's Army at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India) (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments), which will come in course of payment during the year ending On the 31st day of March, 1903."

Resolutions read a second time.

First Resolution:—

(10.58) MR. DILLON

I beg to move the reduction of the number of men by 1,500, the number of the Chinese regiment. As I understand, the policy of enrolling these men for use against their own countrymen was inaugurated in connection with the establishment of Wei-Hai-Wei as a fortress and naval base. I always thought that the policy of enrolling men of different races and nationalities in the British Army was a foolish and mischievous policy. To get those men, as was the case in the war with China, to fight against their own countrymen is a policy which is bound to result in many evil consequences. Although the whole policy of treating Wei-Hai-Wei as a naval base has now been abandoned, the proposal made in connection with that policy to enrol a Chinese regiment has not been abandoned, and it is proposed to maintain a Chinese regiment, not only at 1,000 men as originally suggested, but it is now proposed to increase that number to 1,500. I wish to know what is going to be done with this force. Is this Chinese regiment going to remain in Wei-Hai-Wei, or will it be removed elsewhere, and if so, where? I beg to move a reduction of this Vote by 1,500 men.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '420,000,' and insert '418,500.'" —(Mr.Dillon.)

Question proposed, "That 420,000' stand part of the Resolution."


With regard to this Chinese regiment, the position of affairs is even more curious than that which has been mentioned by my hon. friend. My hon. friend has moved a reduction of this Vote by 1,500 men. It is perfectly true that last year a decision was arrived at to increase this regiment to 1,500 or 1,600 men, but the number on the Estimates is for just over 1,000. We have been informed by the Government in a recent debate in another place that the question of disbanding this regiment is under consideration. Therefore we are in the curious position that first the decision is arrived at to increase the regiment, and then we are told that it is under consideration whether or not it shall be disbanded. Now the House is asked to vote 1,000 or 1,100 men. Having said this much upon the Motion of my hon. friend, I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it would be better for me to ask some questions on which I desire information from the Government upon this Amendment, or wait until the Amendment has either been withdrawn or disposed of.


The Amendment had better be disposed of first.


The hon. Member for East Mayo has brought forward a proposition that we should not employ the natives of a country as troops where they may be called upon to fight against their own countrymen. That is not the case in China.


What I pointed out was that these Chinamen remained technically subjects of the Emperor of China, although they were enrolled in a British regiment.


Quite so, because we do not hope to have any aggression on the part of China. We look to this regiment to guard that part of China which at present remains under the dominion of our flag. Therefore we are trying in those countries which we are taking under our protection to instil into the natives such instruction in military matters as we give to the natives of India and other countries, as will enable them to take their part with us in the defence of that part of the Empire. This is all that is being done in China. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean has referred to the fact that we asked for more men than we have been able to get. I am afraid that that is a thing which we have had experience of at home as well as abroad, and we hope to be able to get the number of men we asked for. It has not been decided to disband this regiment, as has been stated by the right hon. baronet.


I did not say that. What I said was that the question of disbanding this regiment had been stated in another place to be under consideration.


We still hope to be able to keep this regiment in that state of efficiency in which we keep our Indian regiments. Regiments are kept up in this way in other parts of the globe under our rule in order to act as part of our Army, and that is the reason we are taking this sum of money in the present form.

SIR JOHN COLOMB (Great Yarmouth)

I entirely agree with the general policy. We were told originally that Wei-Hai-Wei was to be a secondary naval base. This Chinese regiment was established as part of the arrangment. We have now been told quite casually by the Admiralty that Wei-Hai-Wei is not going to be a secondary naval base at all, and that it is not going to be fortified. You are now asking the Committee to vote the money for this regiment, although it has not yet been decided whether you are going to maintain it or not. I should like to know, if it is decided to keep up this regiment, whether it will be retained at Wei-Hai-Wei or not?



(11.8.) MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

Really this is a matter which ought to be made a little more clear to us. The most important point put by the right hon. Baronet has not been answered at all from the Treasury Bench. The right hon. Baronet told us that the Government have announced in another place that this regiment is to be disbanded.


No; what I said was that they are considering the question of disbanding it.


We want to hear something on that point. Why is it under consideration to disband the regiment, and why has not some decision been taken with regard to it? We ought to have some clear information from the Government with regard to this particular point, which has not been touched upon in the reply which has been given. The answer we have had puts us in a still greater difficulty. The noble Lord said that he had every hope that the arms of these Chinamen would not be turned against their fellow countrymen. That, however, was only a benevolent hope. I would like to ask who else could they be turned against? The noble Lord indicated that they were for defence against some great Power, but how ridiculous that was. The creation of this force is an example of many other forces that have been created in Africa with very scanty information being given with regard to them, and without any direct knowledge on the part of the House as to the objects the Government have in view in bringing those forces into existence. It has now been stated that the Government are thinking of disbanding this Chinese regiment. I certainly hope that, if we do not get more

information upon this point, the reduction which has been moved by my hon. friend will be supported from all sides of the House.

(11.10.) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 67.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Fison, Frederick William Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Morgan, D. J. (Walthomstow)
Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden Flower, Ernest Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, SW. Morton, Arthur H A. (Deptford)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Moulton, John Fletcher
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gardner, Ernest Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Muntz, Philip A.
Bagot, Capt. Joseeline Fitz Roy Gordon, Hn. J E. (Elgin & Nairn) Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bain, Col. James Robert Graham, Henry Robert Nicholson, William Graham
Baird, John George Alexander Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Greville, Hon. Ronald Parker, Gilbert
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Groves, James Grimble Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Guthrie, Walter Murray Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley
Banbury, Frederick George Hamilton, Rt Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x Penn, John
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry Pierpoint, Robert
Beach, Rt Hon Sir Michael Hicks Hardy, Laurence (K'nt, Ashford Plummer, Walter R.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Hare, Thomas Leigh Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Harmsworth, R. Leicester Pretyman, Ernest George
Blundell, Colonel Henry Harris, Frederick Leverton Purvis, Robert
Bond, Edward Hay, Hon. Claude George Pym, C. Guy
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Randles, John S.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Heath,James (Staffords, N. W.) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bull, William James Helder, Augustus Reid, James (Greenock)
Bullard, Sir Harry Henderson, Alexander Renshaw, Charles Bine
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hoare, Sir Samuel Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Butcher, John George Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire Hogg, Lindsay Ritchie, Rt Hn, Chas, Thompson
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Holland, William Henry Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Houston, Robert Paterson Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Chapman, Edward Hudson, George Bickersteth Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Charrington, Spencer Johnston, William (Belfast) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Clive, Captain Percy A. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Coghill, Douglas Harry Keswick, William Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Knowles, Lees Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Seton-Karr, Henry
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lawson, John Grant Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Cust, Henry John C. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Simeon, Sir Barrington
Dairymple, Sir Charles Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Davenport, William Bromley- Llewellyn, Evan Henry Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyn'side
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset.)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Macartney, Rt Hn. W G. Ellison Stroyan, John
Duke, Henry Edward Macdona, John Cumming Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Maclver, David (Liverpool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Manners, Lord Cecil Thornton, Percy M.
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Martin, Richard Biddulph Tollemache, Henry James
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Max well, W J H (Dumfriesshire Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Finch, George H. Melville, Beresford Valentine Tritton, Charles Ernest
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Fisher, William Hayes Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Tuke, Sir John Batty
Valentia, Viscount Willox, Sir John Archibald Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd
Warde, Colonel. C. E. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) Wylie, Alexander
Welby, Lt. -Col. A. CE (Taunton Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Whitmore, Charles Algernon Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) Sir William Walrond andMr. Anstruther.
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E R. (Bath)
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Hammond, John O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N
Ambrose, Robert Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Malley, William
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Helme, Norval Watson O'Mara, James
Blake, Edward. Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Boland, John Kennedy, James, Patrick O'Shee, James John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Lumbert, George Pirie, Duncan V.
Burke, E. Haviland- Layland-Barratt, Francis Power, Patrick Joseph
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Price, Robert John
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Landon, W. Priestley, Arthur
Carew, James Lawrence Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rea, Russell
Cawley, Frederick MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Roche, John
Channing, Francis Allston MacVeagh, Jeremiah Runciman, Walter
Cogan, Denis J. M'Hugh, Patrick A. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Kean, John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Craig, Robert, Hunter M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Crean, Eugene Mansfield, Horace Rendall Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cremer, William Randal Markham, Arthur Basil Sullivan, Donal
Cullinan, J. Murphy, John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Delany, William Nannetti, Joseph P. Tomkinson, James
Donelan, Captain A. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Doogan, P. C. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whitley,.J. H. (Halifax)
Farrell; James Patrick O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, Charles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) Young, Samuel
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Connor T. P. (Liverpool.)
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell. T. (Kerry, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Dowd, John Mr. Dillon and Mr. Lough.

Resolution agreed to.


said there were two points not discussed in Committee which he should like to put to the Secretary of State for War with regard to his scheme. He wanted to know whether the Government had thought out the effect of the new figures upon the linked battalion system. Last year the right hon. Gentleman in his statement told the House what were the views of the Government with regard to the future of the linked battalion system, but there were certain points which had changed since then, and which must therefore affect that view. Apart from the question of whether the allowance of the Government for the number of men they would have permanently to keep in South Africa was sufficient, four additional battalions, two of Munsters and two of Liverpools, had been disbanded.


They could not be disbanded when they were not formed.


said "disbanded" was not his word. It was the Government word. He could quote the answer in which the right hon. Gentleman used the word. Then there were coaling stations which the Admiralty was to have taken over and had refused. These items disturbed the scheme of the linked battalions which was put before the House last year. No statement was made on the subject this year, and they were left in ignorance of how the system would work out in future. Another point was the cost of the new arrangement to India. Five years ago the most powerful argument the right hon. Gentleman was able to bring to bear against the shorter period for home service, and such a scheme as was now adopted, was the cost to India. He attacked some Members of the House, and said their scheme would involve an additional cost to India of £640,000. The right hon. Gentleman had now produced a scheme which involved a larger cost to India. The Indian Government had repeatedly put before Parliament that if they were to have men of proper age and allowed to keep them until the completion of ten or twelve years service it would be an economy. But under the Government scheme they were given six years service. That was sure to be a costly service for the Indian Government.


pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that this Vote was for Great Britain and Ireland, excluding India.


said he had finished what he had to say, although he should be prepared to argue that his remarks were in order, because this affected the number of men at home under the linked battalion system.

(11.27.) MR. BRODRICK

said the right hon. Gentleman had appealed to him about the linked battalions, and he had no difficulty in answering him. The Government had not disbanded the four battalions referred to. The Munsters had never been formed. They were originally contemplated, but the battalions of the Irish Guards were substituted. It became unnecessary to ask for two battalions from Liverpool. We had under the new system seventy-eight battalions abroad, and we should have seventy-eight battalions at home. He hoped the Admiralty would be induced to take over the garrisoning of the coaling stations. The right hon. Baronet had asked whether the term of service in India might not be extended to ten or twelve years; but he thought that a period of between six and seven years was as long a time as it was desirable to assign in the case of the majority of the men. Of course, there might be exceptional men who might serve for a longer time without injury to their constitutions.

Second Resolution:—


said he would move the reduction of the Vote by the nominal sum of £100, in order to call attention to the delay in the payment of the money due to the Yeomanry returned from the war in South Africa. On the previous Friday he had given two illustrations which came within his own experience of such delay, and he dared say almost every Member of the House could give similar instances. He had been greatly surprised when the right hon. Gentleman had in his reply dealt with the two instances he had quoted as if that were the whole extent of the deficiencies of his Department. But in the Report of the Auditor General it was stated that there was no less a sum than half a million due to our soldiers, which had been received at the War Office on 10th September, 1901, and which had not yet been paid out on 11th February, 1902. There must have been some culpable delay at the War Office if these figures were correct, and an explanation was due to the House.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '£18,940,400' and insert '£18,940,300.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)

Question proposed,"That '£18,940,400' stand part of the Resolution."


said that the hon. Member was labouring under a mistake. All the money due to the soldiers in South Africa had been paid, but the accounts had not in all cases been received at home owing to the inevitable difficulties of collecting the pay-sheets. The men had been trekking from day to day, and if any delay had occurred in the case of a few men it was because they had fallen out of the column either sick or wounded and had come home. The War Office had done their best in every way to meet the men. If these had the slightest documentary proof at all, although the pay-sheets had not been received from South Africa, the great proportion of the sum due was given on account. A special Committee had been formed to deal with such cases, and there was not now, so far as he knew, an outstanding account. But if the hon. Member could give him a specific case he would undertake himself to investigate it.


said that in view of the satisfactory statement of the noble Lord he would withdraw his Motion.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

(11.44.) MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

said he found there was an increase of £30,000 on the Estimates in respect of the pay of the Colonial contingents. Now, he contended that these Colonial contingents were not entitled to higher pay than the men from England and Ireland. Loyalty he could understand, but it should be loyalty on equal terms, and not 1s. a day to one class and 5s. a day to another. It was one of the most striking injustices in connection with the whole campaign to give increased pay to the Colonial contingents. He had seen it stated in Colonial newspapers that the explanation of such a large number of Colonials at the war was that there was lack of employment in the Colonies, and that the men eagerly grasped at the pay offered them. He asked any sensible man whether a unit in the imperial Yeomanry was worth five times as much as the average soldier of the line. He thought they ought to divide the House as a protest against the unfair manner in which the ordinary soldier was treated.


said he wished to ask a question with reference to the pay of the local forces in South Africa. He wished to know whether the sum of £1,600.000 included pay for the forces which had been transferred from Lord Kitchener to the Cape Government. He really thought it too bad if the House were to be called upon to pay for those troops.

(11.48.) MR. O'MARA

said he entirely endorsed what had fallen from his hon. friend the Member for North Cork. The Imperial Yeomanry had only distinguished themselves by their appearance in the casualty lists as missing. The surrenders of the regular troops were not half as frequent as the surrenders of the Yeomanry, and yet they were paid 5s. a day. He wished to ask the Secretary of State for War for an explanation of the enormous reduction in Sub-Head H, for gratuities to the troops on active service. It was only £350,000, while last year it was £2,340,000. He had listened very carefully to the debate, but had not heard any explanation of that reduction. He also observed that the recruiting expenses were estimated at about a fifth of what they were last year, namely, £37,000 as against £219,000. He presumed that the Secretary of State imagined that the inducement he held out of 6d. a day extra would be sufficient to attract recruits, without advertising the other advantages of the Army. He himself last year recommended an increase in the pay of the troops and a decrease in the pay of the general staff. He viewed with concern an increase in the pay of the troops while the pay of the generals was not decreased, as his constituency would have to pay for it just as well as the most prosperous constituency in England. He also noticed that there was an enormous increase in the wages paid to ex-soldiers. Last year the Estimate was £254,000, whereas now it was estimated as £680,000. Then there was a sum of money for the lieutenant and major of the Tower of London, and he should be glad to learn what useful occupations those gentlemen pursued. He also wished to have an explanation of the amount taken for table money of general officers. He thought the pay given to general officers ought to be sufficient to provide them with all the delicacies they required, without giving them an allowance as table money. He hoped an explanation would be given on the point he had mentioned.

(11.55.) MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.)

said he trusted the noble Lord would be able to answer the two questions to which he had already drawn attention. One was the difference there was in the authority on which extra pay was given to the Imperial Yeomanry and to the irregular corps. The pay was given to the Imperial Yeomanry by special Royal Warrant, but according to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General no such authority was given with reference to the pay of irregular corps locally raised, especially town guards. He should be glad to know on what authority that pay was given. He also wished to direct attention to the age of enlistment of troops.


This is only the Money Vote.


said he was referring to the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman had placed before the House, and which contained an entirely novel condition of enlistment.


It does not follow that that would be in order on this Vote.


said the matter was closely connected with the pay of the troops. He had already drawn attention to it in Committee, and now merely wished to ask for a definite reply to the remarks he had already made. It was a most striking fact that a recruit was not threatened with any punishment at all for giving a false answer as to age.


That clearly has nothing to do with this Vote.


said he would in that case merely say that the scheme fell short in several particulars of what the country had a right to expect. There were at the

present moment something like 4,000 infantry Volunteers in South Africa waiting to be relieved, and the reason they were not relieved was that the Volunteers naturally preferred to go out at 5s. a day instead of at 1s. To his mind that was a short-sighted policy.

It being Midnight, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.

Whereupon MR. BRODRICK rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(12.0.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 85. (Division List No. 68.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Dewar, T R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.) Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Keswick, William
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Knowles, Lees
Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden Disracli, Coningsby Ralph Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dorington,Sir John Edward Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawson, John Grant
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Duke, Henry Edward Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bailey, James (Walworth) Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Baird John George Alexander Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manech'r Finch, George H. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Firbank, Joseph Thomas Long, Rt Hon. Walt. (Bristol, S)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Fisher, William Hayes Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Fison, Frederick William Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Frederick George Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks Flower, Ernest Maedona, John Cumming
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Foster, PhilipS (Warwick,S. W. MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bignold, Arthur Gardner, Ernest Manners, Lord Cecil
Blundell, Colonel Henry Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Martin, Richard Biddulph
Bond, Edward Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Melville, Beresford Valentine
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.) Montagu., Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)
Bull, William James Graham, Henry Robert Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Bullard Sir Harry Gray, Ernest (West Ham) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury Morgan, David J. (W'lth'mstow
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Greville, Hon. Ronald Morrell, George Herbert
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Groves, James Grimble Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Guthrie, Walter Murray Muntz, Philip A.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hall, Edward Marshall Murray, Rt Hn. A. Gr'h'm (Bute
Chapman, Edward Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Charrington, Spencer Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Nicholson, William Graham
Clive, Captain Percy Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hare, Thomas Leigh Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Coghill, Douglas Harry Harris, Frederick Leverton Parker, Gilbert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hay, Hon. Claude George Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington)
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. Penn, John
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Helder, Augustus Pierpoint, Robert
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Henderson, Alexander Plummer, Walter R.
Crossley, Sir Savile Hoare, Sir Samuel Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hohbouse, Henry (Somereset, E. Pretyman, Ernest George
Cust, Henry John C. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Purvis, Robert
Dairymple, Sir Charles Houston, Robert Paterson Randles, John S.
Davenport, William Bromley- Johnson, William (Belfast) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Reid, James (Greenock)
Renshaw, Charles Bine Simeon, Sir Barrington Warde, Colonel C. E.
Renwick, George Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Ridley, S Forde (Bethnal Green) Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Royds, Clement Molyneux Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Stroyan, John Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wylie, Alexander
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Seely, Maj. J. E B (Isle of Wight Thornton, Percy M.
Seton-Karr, Henry Toliemache, Henry James TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Sharpe, William Edward T. Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) Valentia, Viscount
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Dowd, John
Ambrose, Robert Healy, Timothy Michael O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Blake, Edward Helme, Norval Watson O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Boland, John Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Malley, William
Burke, E. Haviland- Joyce, Michael O'Mara, James
Caldwell, James Kearley, Hudson E. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Kennedy, Patrick James O'Shee, James John
Causton, Richard Knight Lambert, George Power, Patrick Joseph
Cawley, Frederick Layland-Barratt, Francis Price, Robert John
Channing, Francis Allston Levy, Maurice Priestley, Arthur
Cogan, Denis J. Lough, Thomas Rea, Russell
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lundon, W. Roche, John
Craig, Robert Hunter Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift Runciman, Walter
Crean Eugene Mac Veagh, Jeremiah Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Cremer, William Randall M'Hugh, Patrick A. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cullinan, J. M'Kean, John Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Delany, William M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Dillon, John M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Sullivan, Donal
Donelan, Captain A. Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Doogan, P. C. Markham, Arthur Basil Tomkinson, James
Farrell, James Patrick Murphy, John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ffrench, Peter Nannetti, Joseph P. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Flynn, James Christopher Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Gilhooly, James O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Hammond, John O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Mr. Pirie and Mr.Warner.
Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

(12.10.) Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

The House divided:—Ayes, 207; Noes, 50 (Division List No. 69.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Bailey, James (Walworth) Banbury, Frederick George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bain, Colonel James Robert Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Baird, John George Alexander Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks
Anson, Sir William Reynell Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Bignold, Arthur
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Blundell, Colonel Henry
Bond, Edward Harmsworth, R. Leicester Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Harris, Frederick Leverton Pretyman, Ernest George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hay, Hon. Claude George Price, Robert John
Bull, William James Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Priestley, Arthur
Bullard, Sir Harry Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Purvis, Robert
Burdett-Coutts, W. Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. Randles, John S.
Caldwell, James Helder, Augustus Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Cavendish,V. C. W. (D'rbyshire Helme, Norval Watson Rea, Russell
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Henderson, Alexander Reid, James (Greenock)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hoare, Sir Samuel Renshaw, Charles Bine
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Renwick, George
Chapman, Edward Hope J. F. (Sh'ffield, Brightside Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)
Charrington, Spencer Houston, Robert Paterson Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Clive, Capt. Percy A. Johnston, William (Belfast) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kearley, Hudson E. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Keswick, William Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Knowles, Lees Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Craig, Robert Hunter Lambert, George Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Crossley, Sir Savile Lawson John Grant Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Layland-Barratt, Francis Seton-Karr, Henry
Cust, Henry John C. Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareh'm Sharpe, William Edward T.
Dairymple, Sir Charles Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Davenport, W. Bromley- Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Simeon, Sir Barrington
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Levy, Maurice Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo Llewellyn, Evan Henry Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand)
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Duke, Henry Edward Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Stroyan, John
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Macdona, John Cumming Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Mac Iver, David (Liverpool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Finch, George H. Manners, Lord Cecil Thornton, Percy M.
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Mansfield, Horace Rendall Tollemache, Henry James
Fisher, William Hayes Markham, Arthur Basil Tomkinson, James
Fison, Frederick William Martin, Richard Biddulph Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Maxwell, W. J. H (D'mfriesshire Valentia, Viscount
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Melville, Beresford Valentine Warde, Colonel C. E.
Flower, Ernest Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gardner, Ernest Morgan, David J. (W'lthamstow Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morrell, George Herbert Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South Muntz, Philip A. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.) Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Graham, Henry Robert Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Nicholson, William Graham Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Green, Walford D. (W'dnesbury Nicol, Donald Ninian Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Greville, Hon. Ronald Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd
Groves, James Grimble Parker, Gilbert Wylie, Alexander
Guthrie, Walter Murray Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Hall, Edward Marshall Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Penn, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry Pierpoint, Robert Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Pirie, Duncan V.
Hare, Thomas Leigh Plummer, Walter R.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E,) Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Cullinan, J.
Ambrose, Robert Cogan, Denis J. Delany, William
Blake, Edward Condon, Thomas Joseph Dillon, John
Boland, John Crean, Eugene Doogan, P. C.
Burke, E. Haviland- Cremer, William Randal Farrell, James Patrick
Ffrench, Peter M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) O'Mara, James
Flynn, James Christopher Murphy, John O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Gilhooly, James Nannetti, Joseph P. O'Shee, James John
Hammond, John Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Power, Patrick Joseph
Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Roche, John
Healy, Timothy Michael O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Joyce, Michael O'Connor, J miles(Wicklow, W. Sullivan, Donal
Kennedy, Patrick James O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
London, W. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift O'Dowd, John
Mac Veagh,.Jeremiah O'Kelly, Collor (Mayo, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES
M'Hugh, Patrick A. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.>
M'Kean, John O'Malley, William

Ordered, That the Resolution which, upon the 3rd day of this instant March, was reported from the Committee of Supply, and which was then agreed to by the House, be now read.

"That 122,500 men and boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, including 19,805 Royal Marines."

Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during twelve months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army; and that Mr. Secretary Brodrick, Mr. Arnold-Forster, and Lord Stanley do prepare and bring it in.