HC Deb 16 June 1902 vol 109 cc795-808

As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.

(11.8.) MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

moved a new clause to make the Bill apply to Ireland. He said he put the Amendment on the Paper with the intention of moving it in the Standing Committee, but as there were only four or five Irish Members on the Committee he hesitated to propose a new clause of this kind without the sanction, or, at all events, the knowledge, of the whole of the Irish representatives. The club difficulty in Ireland was not exactly what it was in England. He wished to be perfectly fair. Clubs did not exist in the country parts. They were confined to the cities and towns, and he was bound to say that there they had given rise to a great deal of mischief and difficulty. To a very large extent they were bogus clubs in Dublin and Belfast. His proposal, as might naturally be expected, had the support of the licensed trade. They, of course, did not see the advantage of those unlicensed places, which paid nothing to the revenue, carrying on business at all hours when the legitimate public houses, as they were called, were closed. The clubs were carried on without any police surveillance whatever, and therefore the trade naturally looked upon these institutions with no great love. So far as he had consulted the representatives of the trade in Ireland, he found that they had no objection to Part III of the Bill being applied to Ireland. He was also able to say that the entire temperance party and the leaders of social reform were in favour of his proposal, although, no doubt, they would go much farther if they could. He did not wish to shirk the real difficulty in the minds of his friends opposite of applying this Bill to Ireland. He did not believe any one of them would object on temperance grounds, but the difficulty in the way was political. He had told the Home Secretary that that was the true reason why he wished to discuss his Amendment in the House, and not in the Grand Committee. If his Amendment was to arouse strong political opposition, he must candidly say he would rather it were not passed. But there was only one clause in the Bill, Clause 27, which could be twisted into justifying any feeling of that kind. Under that clause— If a justice of the peace is satisfied, by information on oath, that there is reasonable ground for supposing that any registered club is so managed or carried on as to constitute a ground for striking it off the register, or any intoxicating liquor is sold or supplied, or kept for sale or supply, on the premises of an unregistered club, he may grant a search warrant to any constable named therein. Now, the ground for granting a warrant was that there must be a belief that the law had been broken in the supply or sale of drink. The clause went on— A search warrant granted under this section shall authorise the constable named therein to enter the club, if need be by force, to inspect the premises of the club, to take the names and addresses of any persons found therein, and to seize any books and papers relating to the business of the club. That was the only clause that could affect Ireland from a political standpoint; but the provision put the owner of the club in no worse position than the owner of any ordinary licensed premises. If the latter was suspected of conducting his trade illegally, the magistrate had the same power in dealing with him as the Bill proposed to give him in dealing with the owner of a club. It must be remembered that many of the men who carried on these clubs had formerly licences, and had forfeited them for some misconduct or other. The moment they lost their licence they opened a club, and carried on the business without restriction of any kind, and in defiance of the law. He did not see why they should receive any more consideration than a licensed publican. Although the mischief was not so great in Ireland as in this country, it was growing. He begged to move.

New Clause (Application to Ireland)—(Mr. T. W. Russell) brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)

said he wished to acknowledge, in the fullest manner, the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman had moved his Amendment. He had said that he wished to move it in the House on the ground that it was a subject on which the Irish Members should be able to express their opinion, and that if the majority of the Irish Members were opposed to it he would not persevere with the clause. The hon. Gentleman said that the clause had received the approval of the majority of the trade and of the temperance party in Ireland. He was not aware of that, and in so far as he knew, there had been no discussion of the question in Ireland, and, there had been no communication with the Irish representatives. Looking at the clause from an impartial point of view, he believed that there was a great deal to be said for it; and possibly, after due consideration, the majority of the Irish Members might be inclined to adopt it. But without full consideration and discussion by the Irish representatives he should be sorry to give his consent to an Amendment of this kind. It ought not to be passed without full consideration by the united Irish Members. Sympathising most fully with the object of the hon. Gentleman, and recognising the spirit in which he moved his Amendment, he would suggest to him that, in the interest of the cause he had at heart, he would be better advised to withdraw it.

MR. RITCHIE

said he hoped that, after what the hon. Member for Waterford had just stated, his hon. friend would not press this clause now. His hon. friend had himself admitted that he thought it right that the Irish Members should have an opportunity of expressing their views upon the clause before it was incorporated into the Bill. He himself would naturally be very glad to see the provisions of the Clubs part of Bill extended to Ireland, and he believed that it would be beneficial to that country; but be acknowledged that the Irish Members had not had that opportunity for the consideration of the question which was necessary. Without any prejudice against the clause itself, he trusted his hon. friend would not press his Amendment.

MR. DILLON

said he wished to say a few words on his own behalf. The hon. Member for South Tyrone said that, although the evil of bogus clubs was much less felt in Ireland than in England, it was very desirable that they in Ireland should be brought under the provisions of the Bill. But what was their position in Ireland? All of them desired to combat the evils of intemperance, but the tremendous difficulty was that they had not magistrates in whom they could trust. All their experience taught them to fear that these clauses would be used not for the purpose of promoting social reforms but for the purpose of persecuting the Nationalists.

MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)

said he rose to express his extreme regret that the hon. Member for South Tyrone had only brought forward this clause to withdraw it. The hon. Gentleman might have known before he proposed it, if he had consulted the Irish Members, that the majority of the Nationalists would be opposed to it. It appeared to him that the clause had been introduced for the purpose of playing at temperance reform, and now that the hon. Gentleman had played his part for the benefit of the House and the country, he proposed to withdraw the clause in the face of a Party Opposition. He wished to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary for this measure of temperance reform, which he regarded as a step in the right direction, and he believed that the whole country would thank him. He regretted extremely that the proposal to extend the club clause to Ireland had met with such a cold reception.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL

said he wished to say one word in withdrawing the clause. He had two reasons for doing so. First, he had no wish to delay or imperil the Bill which the Home Secretary had piloted with so much success through the Grand Committee; and, in the second place, he believed that the clause, to be effective at all, must have the sanction of the Irish representatives. He was perfectly clear in his own mind that in regard to all these matters, unless they could carry the opinion of the Irish representatives with them, they had better not attempt to pass legislation upon them. He thought it probable that next session they would have a Bill applicable to Ireland only, and which would be a stronger Bill than this clause. He begged leave to withdraw.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

(11.20.) SIR BARRINGTON SIMEON (Southampton)

said that when the Bill was before the Grand Committee, he moved the Clause now standing on the Paper in his name, and only withdrew it because he misunderstood the Home Secretary to say that it was provided for in another part of the Bill. In afterwards looking into the Bill, he, however, found that it had not been provided for, and had he appreciated that fact he certainly would not have withdrawn his Amendment in Grand Committee. There was generally a policeman outside a public house, and it was to be hoped that he was there for a good reason, such as to stop drunkenness and disorder. If he was not there for that purpose, and if he was a young constable, he was probably in hopes of catching the publican in doing wrong—for the young constable was rather a terrific person, and thought that by bringing the publican before the magistrate he would get his name up for promotion. He did not think that a young constable who acted in that way ought to be encouraged. Another reason for a constable being found outside a public house was, of course, to see that law and order was maintained, but also to get a drink for nothing for himself. Why was a policeman outside a public house—[An HON. MEMBER: "He ought to be inside"]—except to preserve order and sobriety? But if he was outside he could not get in It seemed to him an extremely simple thing, if a police constable saw a man who was drunk go into a public house, that he should follow him and say to the publican inside, "You cannot serve him; if you do, you are liable to be punished." It was very easy for a policeman in the street to see when a man was drunk, but it was not so easy for the publican. If they got a real old drunkard, who knew his way about, and wanted another glass, he went into a public house and pulled himself together in a most marvellous way, and went up to the bar as sober as any hon. Gentleman in this House, called for his drink, and he drank it. When he got out into the cold air he became as drunk as ever he could be, and the young policeman standing outside went inside and said to the publican, "You have provided this drunken man with more drink," and then summoned the publican. Why should the policeman not be inside instead of outside the public house? But if he stood outside the public house, the more straightforward way would be, if he saw a drunken man going into a public house to follow him and tell the publican that if he served him with morn drink it would be at his own risk. Here was a case at the Greenwich Police Court as reported in the Morning Advertiser, of June 10th last— Esau Baulk, the landlord of the 'Duchess of Kent,' beerhouse, Blackheath Hill, was summoned by the police for selling intoxicating liquor to a drunken person, on May 20th, and for permitting drunkenness; William Mabbett, of Blackheath Hill, was summoned for being found drunk on the premises. Police-sergeant 38 R, deposed to seeing Mabbett staggering along and enter the 'Duchess of Kent.' Mr. Baggallay: Why didn't you stop him? Witness: I was a little distance away. The sergeant added he watched to see whether the man would be ejected, and as this was not done he went into the house, where he found the defendant Mabbett drunk. The defendant had pleaded guilty, but Mr. Baggallay told the sergeant that he had an opportunity to stop the man before he went in. Why should he set a trap for the publican in that way? It was not the way to catch people, and not fair to the publican. The summonses would be dismissed. That was what they wanted—not to lay traps for the publican.

New Clause (Police authority regulations)—(Sir Barrington Simeon)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause he read a second time."

MR. RITCHIE

I have not the least doubt as to the good intention of my hon. friend, but I must point out that if his proposal were accepted, and if it became part of the duty of the police to warn publicans in the manner suggested, it would very seriously diminish the responsibility which now rests on the publican. It is the duty of the publican, who has certain responsibilities imposed as well as favours conferred on him by law, to see that the law is obeyed, and that no drunken person is served by him; and I am not at all sure that if this Clause became law it would not be held to be a very good defence on the part of a publican who was summoned for serving a drunken man, that he had not been warned. That would be a most dangerous principle, and even if it were capable of being carried out to any good effect, it would greatly relieve the publican of the responsibility which now rests upon him and which ought to remain with him.

Question put and negatived.

MR. GALLOWAY (Manchester, S. W.)

said he begged to move the Clause standing in his name, which was to empower Justices to grant costs against persons making objections to the renewal or transfer of licences of a frivolous or vexatious character. The clause came before the Grand Committee, but did not receive any very adequate or full consideration. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, in refusing to accept it, explained that if there were an appeal in a case of a vexatious objection, it would have to be confined to that objection, and would not enable the full facts to be inquired into as under the existing law. He had made inquiries from persons accustomed to act in licensing cases, and they were of opinion that so far as the licence holder was concerned, his position would not, in any way, be prejudiced by the Clause. He did not think that the House would object to the principle that a man making a frivolous or vexatious objection to the renewal of the licence, should have charged against him the cost to which he put the publican in rebutting that objection. He hoped, therefore, his right hon. friend would see his way to accept the Clause.

New Clause (Power of justices to grant costs)—(Mr. Galloway)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. RITCHIE

My hon. friend has stated the objection which was taken to the proposal which he made before the Grand Committee. His present proposal is that an objector to the renewal of a licence should be liable to be penalised in costs, if the objection did not hold good.

MR. GALLOWAY

The Clause would only apply to objections of a frivolous or vexatious character.

MR. RITCHIE

My opinion is that it ought to be perfectly free and open to objectors to express their views, without any fear of their being mulcted in costs. It is a totally new principle which my hon. friend desires to introduce into the Bill, and one which I think would be against public interest. I hope, therefore, he will not press it.

MR. GROVES (Salford, S.)

said his right hon. friend seemed to forget that the main principle involved in the Clause was the question of frivolous or vexatious objections. It was a very reasonable provision, and was fundamentally different from the proposal which his hon. friend brought before the Grand Committee. Its object was to protect licence holders against frivolous and vexatious objections, and to give discretionary powers to magistrates to discountenance them by granting costs against such objectors.

MR. COHEN (Islington, E.)

said he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not adhere to his objection. His right hon. friend had himself introduced new principles into the law, and, therefore, the fact that there was a new principle involved was not in itself sufficient to condemn the Clause. It merely provided that where in the opinion of the Justices an objection was frivolous or vexatious, they should have power to grant costs against the objector. Anything more just or reasonable he could not conceive, and therefore, he hoped, his hon. friend would assent to it.

MR. MARSHALL HALL (Lancashire, Southport)

said he too hoped that his right hon. friend would assent to the very reasonable request of his hon. friend. If the Justices to whom were entrusted the right to decide whether licences were or were not to be granted were thought to be a proper authority for that purpose, surely they must also be a fit and proper tribunal to decide whether objections were frivolous or vexatious, and if they were, it was only common justice that the licence holders should not be put to unnecessary expense because of them.

(11.43.) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 103; Noes, 207. (Division List No. 229.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Duke, Henry Edward Lawson, John Grant
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Anson, Sir William Reynell Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Faber, George Denison (York) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Finch, George H. Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Bain, Colonel James Robert Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Balcarres, Lord Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Macdona, John Cumming
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Flower, Ernest MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Banbury, Frederick George Gardner, Ernest Maconochie, A. W.
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Garfit, William M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gibbs, Hn A. G. H.(City of Lond. M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)
Bignold, Arthur Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Bill, Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) Majendie, James A. H.
Bond, Edward Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Martin, Richard Biddulph
Bonstield, William Robert Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire
Brassey, Albert Goulding, Edward Alfred Middlemore, John Throgmort'n
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Brymer, William Ernest Grenfell, William Henry Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bull, William James Gretton, John More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Butcher, John George Groves, James Grimble Morgan, David J.(Walth'mst'w
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hain, Edward Morrell, George Herbert
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire. Hall, Edward Marshall Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x Mount, William Arthur
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nder'y Muntz, Philip A.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Harris, Frederick Leverton Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Chapman, Edward Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Helder, Augustus Myers, William Henry
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Henderson, Alexander Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hogg, Lindsay O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Hoult, Joseph Parker, Gilbert
Compton, Lord Alwyne Houston, Robert Paterson Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Penn John
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Percy, Earl
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Pierpoint, Robert
Cranborne, Viscount Hudson, George Bickersteth Pilkington, Lieut-Col. Richard
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Johnston, William (Belfast) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Pretyman, Ernest George
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Keswick, William Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Kimber, Henry Purvis, Robert
Dickson, Charles Scott King, Sir Henry Seymour Pym, C. Guy
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Randles, John S.
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Rankin, Sir James
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Rattigan, Sir William Henry Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Reid, James (Greenock) Stock, James Henry Willox, Sir John Archibald
Renshaw, Charles Bine Stone, Sir Benjamin Wills, Sir Frederick
Richards, Henry Charles Stroyan, John Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Ropner, Colonel Robert Thornton, Percy N. Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Round, James Tollemarche, Henry James Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Saunderson, Rt. Hn Col. Edw. J. Tritton, Charles Ernest Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Sharpe, William Edward T. Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Shef'ld Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Shaw-Stewart, M H. (Renfrew Walker, Col. William Hall Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Simeon, Sir Barrington Warde, Colonel C. E.
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Warr, Augustus Frederick
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Webb, Colonel William George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside Welby, Lt.-Col A C E (Taunton
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts)
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Dowd, John
Ambrose, Robert Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.
Asher, Alexander Hayden, John Patrick O'Malley, William
Austin, Sir John Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Paulton, James Mellor
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Horniman, Frederick John Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Bell, Richard Jacoby, James Alfred Pirie, Duncan V.
Boland, John Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Rea, Russell
Broadhurst, Henry Joyce, Michael Reddy, M.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Kearley, Hudson E. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Burke, E. Haviland- Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth Redmond, William (Clare)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kitson, Sir James Rickett, J. Compton
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Rigg, Richard
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Langley, Batty Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Causton, Richard Knight Layland-Barratt, Francis Robson, William Snowdon
Cawley, Frederick Leamy, Edmund Roche, John
Channing, Francis Allston Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Roe, Sir Thomas
Clancy, John Joseph Leigh, Sir Joseph Runciman, Walter
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leng, Sir John Russell, T. W.
Craig, Robert Hunter Levy, Maurice Schwann, Charles E.
Crean, Eugene Lough, Thomas Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Cremer, William Randal London, W. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Delany, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Dillon, John M'Cann, James Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants
Donelan, Captain A. M'Kean, John Stevenson, Francis S.
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Strachey, Sir Edward
Duncan, J. Hastings M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Sullivan, Donal
Edwards, Frank M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Emmott, Alfred Mansfield, Horace Rendall Tennant, Harold John
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Mooney, John J. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Ffrench, Peter Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Field, William Moulton, John Fletcher Tomkinson, James
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nannetti, Joseph P. Toulmin, George
Flynn, James Christopher Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Ure, Alexander
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, George (Norfolk)
Furness, Sir Christopher O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Gilhooly, James O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (H'ddersf'd TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Wm. M'Arthur.
Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) Young, Samuel

Question put, and agreed to.

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St Albans O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gordon, Rn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn O'Malley, William
Ambrose, Robert Goulding, Edward Alfred O'Mara, James
Austin, Sir John Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bailey, James (Walworth) Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury
Gretton, John Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington)
Balcarres, Lord Groves, James Grimble Peel, Hn Wm Robert Wellesley
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Percy, Earl
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Harris, Frederick Leverton Pierpoint, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Helder, Augustus Power, Patrick Joseph
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hogg, Lindsay
Bond, Edward Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Purvis, Robert
Burke, E. Haviland- Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm Reddy, M.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Joyce, Michael Redmond, William (Clare)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Leamy, Edmund Richards, Henry Charles
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Clancy, John Joseph Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Coghill, Douglas Harry Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lowe, Francis William Simeon, Sir Barrington
Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Lundon, W. Stock, James Henry
Condon, Thomas Joseph Stroyan, John
Crean, Eugene Sullivan, Donal
Cremer, William Randal MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
Cripps, Charles Alfred MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tollemache, Henry James
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
M'Kean, John
Delany, William M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Walker, Col. William Hall
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Mooney, John J. Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Donelan, Captain A. Morgan, David J. (Walthamst') Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Doogan, P. C. Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Muntz, Philip A. Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J (Manc'r. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Ffreneh, Peter Newdigate, Francis Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Galloway and Mr. Marshall Hall.
Field, William Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N
Flower, Ernest Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Flynn, James Christopher
Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (C'ty of L'nd'n O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Caldwell, James
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Banbury, Frederick George Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Beach Rt. Hn Sir Michael Hicks Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bell, Richard Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bignold, Arthur Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Boland, John Channing, Francis Allston
Asher, Alexander Bolton, Thomas Dolling Clive, Captain Percy A.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Brassey, Albert Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Broadnurst, Henry
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Bain, Colonel James Robert Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bull, William James Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Butcher, John George Craig, Robert Hunter
Cranborne, Viscount Langley, Batty Roberts, William Snowdon
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Roe, Sir Thomas
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Law, Hugh Alex.(Donegal, W. Ropner, Colonel Robert
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Round, James
Denny, Colonel Lawson, John Grant Runciman, Walter
Dickson, Charles Scott Layland-Barratt, Francis Russell, T. W.
Digby, John. K. D. Wingfield- Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Schwann, Charles E.
Duke, Henry Edward Leigh, Sir Joseph Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh
Duncan, J. Hastings Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew
Levy, Maurice Smith, Abel H. (Hertford)
Edwards, Frank Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside
Emmott, Alfred Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone Lonsdale, John Brownlee Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Soares, Ernest J.
Lucas, Coi. Francis (Lowestoft Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northa'ts
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Faber, George Denison (York Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Stevenson, Francis S.
Finch, George H. Macdona, John Cumming Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne MacIver, David (Liverpool) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Maconochie, A. W.
Fisher, William Hayes M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Tennant, Harold John
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Majendie, James A. H. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Gardner, Ernest Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower
Garfit, William Martin, Richard Biddulph Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Gilhooly, James Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh. Thornton, Percy M.
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John Molesworth, Sir Lewis Tomkinson, James
Goddard, Daniel Ford More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Toulmin, George
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morrell, George Herbert Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Mount, William Arthur
Grenfell, William Henry Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Vincent, Col. Sir C E H. (Sheffield
Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) Nicol, Donald Ninian Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hain, Edward Norman, Henry Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Warr, Augustus Frederick
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry O'Dowd, John Webb, Colonel William George
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. White, George (Norfolk)
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harwood, George Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayden, John Patrick Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pirie, Duncan V. Wills, Sir Frederick
Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Henderson, Alexander Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)
Horniman, Frederick John Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Hoult, Joseph Randles, John S. Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Houston, Robert Paterson Rankin, Sir James Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Rattigan, Sir William Henry Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Johnston, William (Belfast) Rea, Russell Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Reckitt, Harold James
Jones, William (C'rnarvonshire Reid, James (Greenock)
Keswick, William Renshaw, Charles Bine TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Kimber, Henry Rickett, J. Compton Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
King, Sir Henry Seymour Rigg, Richard
Kitson, Sir James Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson
Roberts, John H. (Donbighsh.
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Further Proceeding, on consideration, as amended, adjourned till Tomorrow.

Adjourned at five minutes after Twelve o'clock.