§ 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £25,716, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Board of Agriculture, and to pay certain grants in aid."
§ (11.15.) SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)asked if the Government would have any objection to postponing the Vote, because if it were taken now it would be impossible for hon. Members interested in agricultural questions to raise them during the remainder of the session. Moreover, the President of the Board of Agriculture was not present.
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)said that if the hon. Member desired it, he would not object to the Vote being postponed, but another opportunity of considering it might not arise.
§ SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he was quite ready to discuss the Vote now, but his principal reason for asking that it should be postponed was that the President of the Board of Agriculture was not present, and he desired to ask him one or two questions.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that the President of the Board of Agriculture had been sent for.
§ SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he noticed that only yesterday the President of the Board of Agriculture, speaking at Reading, said that he himself was in communication with the Board of Trade upon the very important question of railway rates, and he thought it would be useful if the right hon. Gentleman would inform the House what he was doing in the matter. As far as he understood, the right hon. Gentleman was trying to get the Board of Trade to wake up. At present the Board of Trade absolutely neglected the farming industry, which had to contend with higher rates than were given to foreigners. If a large amount of agricultural produce were sent from one part of the country to the other, the railway companies gave favourable rates; but in the case of a small farmer who was only able to send a small quantity of produce to market, the rates were absolutely prohibitive, and in some cases would almost double the selling price of cream or milk in the London market. That showed how utterly impossible it was for agriculturists to send small quantities of produce to market, and that was why agriculturists felt that the Board of Trade neglected their interests. His object in raising the question was to assist the President of the Board of Agriculture in the matter, because if the House expressed its approval of the action of the right hon. Gentleman it would strengthen his hand. He knew that the right hon. 1639 Gentleman was only too ready to assist farmers, and he hoped that by raising the question in the House it would assist the right hon. Gentleman in trying to wake up the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman also said at Reading that it was desirable that something more should be done as regarded grants towards technical agricultural interests—such questions as scientific research into the making of cider, an industry which was becoming very important, and might be a very valuable one indeed. Recently the Bath and West of England Agricultural Society made an application to the right hon. Gentleman in this matter; he did not know what reply was given but he rather gathered that the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to have the support of the House in putting pressure on the Treasury. The right hon. Gentle man further said that it was very desirable that the County Councils should be encouraged to vote money towards agricultural education and scientific research, and he threw out the suggestion that if the County Councils would make grants he would be prepared to supplement them. He believed that the County Councils would be only too ready to respond to that He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to inform the House what he considered might be done out-side the House to further the interests of a great national industry.
§ (11.25) THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY, Preston)I will tell the hon. Member very frankly what I think on the subject of railway rates. In the first place, I think that agriculturists themselves might do a very great deal by cooperating on this subject, and thus bringing pressure to bear on the railway companies. The present condition of things does tell somewhat hardly against the farmer who is a small consigner, as compared with the tradesman, and especially the foreigner, who are able to send much larger consignments at much lower rates. In Denmark, the farmers have influenced railway rates to a very considerable extent by combination among themselves—by combining to bring pressure on the railway companies, and also by combining a number of their 1640 small consignments, so that they form one lot, and get the benefit of the reduced rates. I wish English farmers would follow that example. As regards bringing Government pressure to bear, I have not the same power that is possessed by the Irish Board of Agriculture of appealing directly to the Railway Commissioners when there seems to be any case of undue charges. That would be very useful in my Department. However that may be, I have been in communication with the Board of Trade on this subject. Since the joint Committee of the two Houses sat in 1888, two new points have arisen. The first is the question of railway companies and the rates charged by them, when they are also owners of lines of steamers. I am inclined to think that they have facilities which they exercise so as to give, in many cases, undue preference to foreign goods. Then again, the question of delay has arisen, and the Board of Trade require, very properly, that we should place before them some fair amount of evidence on the matter, and I am taking every means I can to secure that evidence. The hon. Member referred to the grant, especially I think, to the cider industry in Somerset. I am making inquiries, and I am inclined to think that before we proceed further in the direction of grants we ought to ascertain whether the work already done is of a really practical nature, and is likely to improve cider making. I know the interest which the hon. Member takes in this matter, and I can assure him that I personally will not hesitate to continue the grant if I am quite satisfied that the work which has already been done is of a really practical character. I believe that the money given in grants to the various colleges is money well spent, for a double reason. In the first place there is the grant for what it is worth, but it also enables us to exercise control over the local taxation grants in the country, and to see that a fair share of them is given to agricultural purposes, and also that the money is well spent. I have made it a rule not to give these grants unless they involve a certain amount of control. I think further that the whole of the country has a perfect right to benefit by the work done in any one county. What is more, I believe that a great 1641 deal of the work is being done over and over again in various counties. That would be avoided it the counties—and I am glad many of them are willing—would let the Board of Agriculture try and harmonise their work, so as to prevent repetition, and to see that the work is of a kind which will not only be of particular benefit to the county in which it is carried on, but also of benefit to the whole of the United Kingdom.
§ MR. MACVEAGHsaid he gathered that it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to make representations to the Board of Trade on the question of railway rates, and he should like to know whether it was intended that the proposed inquiry should include railway rates in Ireland. He quite understood that the Board of Agriculture in Ireland had power to make representations in regard to individual cases of excessive railway rates, but he thought it would be well to know whether the inquiry would include railway rates in Ireland, as the question was one of very great importance.
§ MR. HANBURYBy permission of the House, I will reply to the hon. Member. Ireland, as the hon. Member knows, has got its own Department of Agriculture, but I will consult with my right hon. friend as to collecting the necessary information as regards Ireland to he laid before the Committee to be appointed.
§ MR. TOMLINSON (Preston)said he was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman was using his influence to induce the Board of Trade to order a further inquiry into the present position of rail-way rates. Agriculturists had felt that they had received but scant justice in the matter, and he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that there was plenty of information, which could be submitted to a Committee, which might guide the Board of Trade as to what action should be taken. He believed that the railway companies had as much to gain from an inquiry as the traders, and he was sure the inquiry would bring a great deal of light to bear on a question on which, he could not help thinking, the Board of Trade was not fully in-formed.
§ 2. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,442, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Charity Commission for England and Wales."
§ 3. "That a sum, not exceeding £26,402, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Civil Service Commission."
§ (11.35.) MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)said he wished to refer to the form of the examinations of the Civil Service Commission. His strong conviction on the subject led him to protest against the absurd and overwhelming position which the classical languages still held in the examinations of the Civil Service Commission. He thought much of the lime devoted to the study of these languages was wasted on the part of the masters, and still more on the part of the pupils. As a matter of fact, he found that many gentlemen who had taken the very highest degrees in the universities were unable to speak a word of French or German. There was no compensation for that in the study of the ancient languages, because many gentlemen who had devoted ten or twelve years to their study were absolutely unable to carry on a conversation in modern Greek. It was impossible that the education of the country could ever he rational or profound as long as the best years of the lives of young boys and young men were devoted to studies which should be entirely left to professional students and professors. The Civil Service Commission could not, perhaps, be blamed for following tradition in the matter. It was really incredible, but it was true, that a man who took up the responsible duty of governing perhaps 100,000 people in India obtained his right to that position by a rote-like recollection of Greek and Latin classics. The whole system was wrong. He would only deal with one argument that might be urged in favour of it, 1643 and that was that these languages were useful for the purposes of mental gymnastics. His opinion was that they were just as useful for the purpose as the acrostics which society papers published for the amusement of the young ladies who perused them. He might suggest to Englishmen that there was a language and literature called English, which they might very well study with advantage. Even on the subject of English literature, the Civil Service examinations followed old and worn-out traditions. They followed what might be called the Chinese tradition. The greatest power which a man could possess in order to secure admission into the public service was simply a good memory. He had known very able men with bad memories, and very stupid men with good memories. Indeed, if memory were to be the chief intellectual quality for the position of First Lord of the Treasury, he was afraid the right hon. Gentleman the present Leader of the House would find himself at the bottom of the list, because, with reference to certain subjects, he had not a very good memory. In public or private life, no one would think of choosing a man simply because he had the power of repeating a certain amount of literature. He hoped, therefore, that the Civil Service examinations would be brought into accord with higher, better, and more enlightened forms of education.
Resolution agreed to.
4. "That a sum., not exceeding £38,605, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Comptroller and Auditor General."
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,361, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the Registry of Friendly Societies.
1644 6. "That a sum, not exceeding £420,145, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for stationery, printing, paper, binding, and printed books for the public service; to pay the salaries and expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry miscellaneous services, including Reports of Parliamentary Debates."