HC Deb 28 July 1902 vol 111 cc1459-510

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(Mr. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.)

Clause 7:—

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 39, after the word 'authority' to insert the words 'shall, where the local education authority are the Council of a county, have a body of managers consisting of a number of managers not exceeding four appointed by that Council, together "with a number not exceeding two appointed by the minor local authority. Where the local education authority are the Council of a borough or urban district they may, if they think fit, appoint for any school provided by them such number of managers as they may determine. (2) All public elementary schools not provided by the local education authority shall have a body of managers consisting of a number of trust managers not exceeding four appointed as provided by this Act, together with a number of managers not exceeding two appointed (a) where the local education authority are the Council of a county, one by that Council and one by the minor local authority; and (b) where the local education authority are the Council of a borough or urban district, both by that authority. (3) One of the managers appointed by the minor local authority, or the manager so appointed, as the case may be, shall be the parent of a child who is or has been during the last twelve months a scholar in the school. (4) The 'minor local authority' means the Council of any borough or urban district, or the Parish Council or (where there is no Parish Council the Parish Meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think for joint appointment by the authorities concerned."— (Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

(10.20.) DR. SHIPMAN

thought that the Interpretation Act of 1889 was only intended to shorten Parliamentary language, and was not intended to confer rights or take away disabilities, consequently if the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney General, was relying on that Act he was leaning on a very broken reed. He contended that the words of his Amendment were necessary to make it clear that either married or single women could be appointed to the Committee of Managers. He begged leave to move his Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the word 'managers,' to insert the words 'neither sex nor coverture to be taken as a disability."—(Dr. Shipment.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


thought that he had explained to the House that these words were absolutely unnecessary. There, however, seemed to be some doubt on the point dealt with by the hon. Member, but he thought they should deal with the difficulty as it arose, not by the way of the present Amendment. Under these circumstances he asked the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment, because it only covered one particular case. There were other Committees and bodies dealt with in this Bill, and he thought they would do better to have some words analagous to those in the Act of 1889, because he considered that they ought to make it perfectly clear that no disabilities attached to the status of women in these educational objects.


said that so far as he recollected the proposals of this Bill, the only place where this question arose was with regard to the Committee appointed by the local authority. If there were other cases, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would mention them. If his hon. friend accepted the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, and allowed this matter to be dealt with in another proposal, would that also cover the Education Committee? Many of them felt strongly that there ought to be a positive direction upon this matter.


said that he entirely agreed with what the right hon. Gentleman had stated, but he did not wish to commit the Government at present as to what they would do upon the case he had suggested. All he said was that the proper way to deal with it would be to postpone this Amendment, and let them, either in some general statute in some general terms lay down this principle so that no loophole or doubt could exist. He thought it would be more practical to have a broad provision which he proposed to put at the end of this Bill. He thought it would be much better to adopt this course, because the question of interpretation had really become an intolerable nuisance.


said that after the assurance which the right hon. Gentleman had given him he begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.

*Siu WILLIAM ANSON (Oxford University)

said he should like to say that he believed some other hon. Members, as well as himself, on the Government side voted with some regret against the Amendment which was moved before the Adjournment, not because they thought it was undesirable that women should be allowed to act as managers, but because they thought the compulsion involved made the Amendment impracticable. In accepting the assurance that words would be introduced, which would make it quite certain that women would be eligible both for the new authority to be constituted and for thy Board of managers, he, for one, did not commit himself to the acceptance ot this assurance as being all that they wished to see done under his Bill. When the proper time came he should be prepared to endeavour to make the service of women on the Education Committee of the local authority compulsory.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


said it seemed to him quite clear from the previous discussion that the number of managers for the different districts ought not to be stereotyped, but the number ought to be flexible and variable according to the wants and character of the locality. It was necessary to have some elasticity, and it was best to-leave the number to be, determined by the county or local education authority. One area might want a much larger number than another, from local circumstances and distances, or again, it might require managers of more varied types and qualifications than another locality to secure real efficiency, while a smaller parish might have no such difficulties. It was for these reasons that he had placed this Amendment on the Paper. He thought that if the number fixed was less than six it might not prove to be a workable Board. He did not bind himself to six, and another number might be selected, and five had been suggested as being more suitable. To him six appeared to be a convenient minimum and the maximum might be left variable to be fixed by the County Council.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, alter the second word 'managers,' to insert the words 'to be fixed by the Council, and in no case to be less than six, and of this number.' "—(Mr. Channing.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


did not think that the Bill would he improved by adopting either of the two proposals contained in the Amendment. The minimum might be very inconvenient, as an education authority might have difficulty in finding the requisite material. It was possible in such circumstances that the result of the Amendment would merely be to dilute the body of managers. He also considered that the machinery by which the hon. Gentleman proposed to attain his end was not convenient.


thought the right hon. Gentleman had not made out any case against this Amendment. It was obviously absurd that they should have the same principle applied to a large and a small parish, and there ought to be some elasticity. The County Council were not always competent to choose local men. It might be competent to fix the number of representatives, because the County Council would be able to take into consideration whether they were dealing with a scattered parish or an area within a ringed fence where good or bad means of communication existed. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would withdraw his opposition to this Amendment.


contended that they could not consider this question satisfactorily without also considering the question of grouping the schools.


said it was not proposed that the limit of six should apply to grouped schools.


said that in the case of a rural parish of 15,000 inhabitants with eight board schools, six managers would he a very small number.


pointed out that this point was dealt with later on in an Amendment, to line 25 by an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset which provided— Notwithstanding anything in this section the local education authority may group any schools provided by them and, with the consent of the managers, may group any schools not provided by them, under one body of managers, consisting of such number and appointed in such manner and proportions as shall have been agreed upon between the local education authority, the minor local authorities, and, in the case of schools not provided by the. local education authority, the managers of the schools concerned, or as may be determined so far as relates to the minor local authorities, in default of agreement, by the Board of Education. Any such arrangement for grouping shall remain in force for three years. Therefore, there was no limitation in dealing with grouping.


said he thought that applied to denominational schools.


The number of managers for groups of schools is unlimited.


said he did not see why there should be a fixed limit. He could imagine cases where six managers might be too many, and other instances where four would not be enough. He could not see why the actual number should not be left to the discretion of the local authority. He did not know why the right hon. Gentleman thought there was so much virtue in the numbers fixed.


said the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset did not meet the point which had been raised.


We are only on provided schools now.


said if they did not take this opportunity of raising this question they would lose a great deal of force when they came to deal with the other schools. In the case of provided schools there was a greater need for an increase in the number above six. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to give to the managers whatever powers he could in order to enable them to work in a satisfactory manner. In a great industrial county they were never sure of business men being able to attend at a particular time, and it was highly desirable that there should be a sufficiently large number of managers to ensure a quorum sufficiently large to prevent the business being done in a hole-and- corner way.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

said he did not quite understand the words. Supposing that a County Council appointed three, what was to happen then? Would the other bodies appoint two or one? If they had five, four, or three, what was to be the distribution between the respective authorities? He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the consideration which induced him to fix a maximum should also induce him to fix a minimum, so that there would be security of having a working body in the event of any of the members being prevented from attending the meetings by illness or business.


said he would point out how these words were intended to work. The Government did not propose that there should necessarily be six; but if a County Council did not choose to appoint four, they must be content not to have the majority of four to two which the Bill permitted. On the other hand, if the Parish Council did not desire to appoint two, the Bill did not compel them to do so. As to the maximum, what was urged upon him was that there were cases in which a maximum of six was insufficient in large country districts to deal with the day-to-day problems of the schools. Such cases he believed to be rare. Personally he believed a body of six was probably more efficient to deal with large problems than a body of greater number. But if there were such cases in which there ought to be more than six, he was inclined to think they would be met by an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wigan, providing that where the circumstances of the school required a larger body of managers the Board of Education might make an order increasing the total number of managers, so, however, that the number of managers was proportionately increased. That Amendment provided adequate elasticity for increasing the number above six where the conditions of the district required it.

MR. CRIPPS (Lancashire, Stretford)

said that on the question as between the fixing of a maximum and a minimum, he very much preferred the minimum. He believed that the cases in which the minimum limit would cause inconvenience would be very much less than those in which the maximum limit would cause inconvenience. He did not see why there should be a limit in the case of an ordinary County Council. Their conditions were much more varied than in the case of Urban District Councils and Borough Councils, and that was a reason why they should have a much more free hand than a Borough Council or an Urban District Council. The only difficulty in giving them a free hand seemed to be in regard to the proportionate number to be appointed by the Council, and the number to be appointed by the minor local authority, but that could be easily dealt with.


said that the circumstances of different places must necessarily differ, and it was therefore desirable to give elasticity and variety to the bodies of managers to be appointed. In some cases there would be no difficulty in collecting a meeting, while in others, where the population was greatly scattered, it would be very difficult to collect the same number. The Clause should give power to vary the number of managers according as the circumstances of each case might require.


said the First Lord of the Treasury did not seem to have laid enough stress on certain points concerning this question. A County Council was a distant authority. A small number of managers had been sufficient hitherto where the School Board had been near. The Education Committee would not be always meeting; it would be at a great distance, and a great deal would have to be done by the managers on the spot. It would be extremely inconvenient if managers were not able to convene meetings. There should be a strong body of managers, and in no case should the quorum be less than three. In view of the difficulty of getting a quorum, he doubted whether in any circumstances the body of managers should be less than six. There was a great deal to be said for having a fixed minimum of six, and, as regards the maximum, for allowing the local authority to fix it. In a large number of cases one school would serve a large parish, and where they would certainly want more than six managers. Why in these cases should the local authority be put to the trouble, as the hon. Member for Wigan proposed in his Amendment, of making special application to the Board of Education? Was there any reason for fixing a statutory maximum at all. His lion, friend was on firm ground when he proposed to give the local authority the power of fixing the number. On a review of the whole circumstance of the case he thought it would be found that that was the much more practical method of dealing with the question.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

thought it right to say that the County Councils Association were unanimously of opinion that they ought to have a free hand in regard to this matter, and not be tied either by a statutory maximum or a statutory minimum.


regretted that the First Lord of the Treasury could not accept an Amendment of this character. He pointed out that the County Council had already power to increase the numbers of parish councillors and district councillors, and he saw no reason why they could not do the same with regard to a body of management on a question which was within its own control. He agreed with the hon. Member for the Stretford Division that the most important part of the Amendment was that of fixing the minimum. Now that they had done away with School Boards it was desirable to prevent the public schools falling under a system of one-man management. The effect of allowing a school to come under the control of one man was bad. They did not get public discussion under that system. They got one man running his own fads, and, he was afraid, his own predilections. The managers to be appointed were really to be the substitutes for the School Boards. They; were simply corporate bodies representing the ratepayers more or less directly. At present the minimum number of a School Board was five, and why should they have a less minimum for the body of managers? The right hon. Gentleman said there were some parishes where they could not get six capable men. He had a much poorer opinion of English parishes than hon. Members had on the Opposition side of the House. Besides it was a liberal education for them. There was nothing better in a parish than to pick out six men and give them the management of education in that parish. The real danger in a little parish was this. They were certain to have one most powerful man in the parish who would be on the body of managers. He might be the rector or the squire and if he was one of three there would not be the same independent and free discussion as if he were one of six. If the right hon. Gentleman wanted to secure a good system of education and to interest the people in it, the more members they had on these bodies the better.


said that he should like to remind the First Lord that earlier in the evening he stated that he proposed to follow the third Schedule of the Act of 1870 in the main, with regard to the regulation of the meetings and proceedings of the managers. In that Schedule the quorum was fixed at three, and that obviously contemplated that the numbers of bodies of managers should be at least, or more than, five or six persons.

MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W. R. Keighley)

said that in his view they ought rather to increase than decrease the number. The School Boards required competent bodies of managers to get their work-done, and it would be equally necessary that the new education authority should receive similar assistance. There were the School Attendance Committee, the Financial Committee and four or five other Committees, which would have to be appointed for any school district of any size. And then when they came to groups of schools there would be necessarily a larger number of Committees to carry on the work. He thought,

with the hon. baronet the Member for Wigan, that the number of managers ought to be increased.

MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

said that the principle of the Amendment was that they should not lay down the hard and fast line that the number of managers should be six, and only six. The Committee should remember that they were dealing not only with small rural parishes, but with schools in County Municipal Boroughs, and Urban Districts. Was it possible that in such localities, with a rapidly increasing population, and whore there were already four or five schools, to believe that a body of managers, limited to six could do the work properly? He made a last appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury to re-consider this question. If the right hon. Gentleman insisted in pressing this limit, he believed it would hamper very seriously the effective operation of educational reform.


said that he had already stated that he was willing to accept a larger number on the school management whore the schools were grouped.


asked the First Lord of the Treasury whether he should insert in the Schedule a provision that the quorum of the managers appointed by the local education authority should not be less than three. It was quite possible that under the Clause as it stood there would be the Church majority in the County Council which would appoint a clergyman, who would appoint his curate. That was not what Nonconformists wanted. He trusted that there would be a small modicum of popular representation on the management of these schools.

(11.18.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 98; Noes, 266. (Division List, No. 325.)

Abraham, William (Rhondda) Brigg, John Campbell, Bannerman, Sir H.
Allen, Charles p. (Glou, Stroud Broadhurst, Henry Causton, Richard Knighr
Atherley-Jones, L. Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Cawley, Frederick
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Craig, Robert Hunter
Bell, Richard Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Cramer, William Randal
Black, Alexander "William Buxton, Sydney, Charles Dalziel, James Henry
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Caldwell, James Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lloyd-George, David Soares, Ernest J.
Duncan, J. Hastings Lough, Thomas Strachcy, Sir Edward
Edwards, Frank M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Tennant, Harold John
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Fenwick, Charles Mather, Sir William Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomas, J A (Glam'rgan, Gower
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Moss, Samuel Toulmin, George
Fuller, J. M. F. Moulton, John Fletcher Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John Newnes, Sir George Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Norman, Henry Warner, Thomas Courtenay
Grant, Corrie Partington, Oswald Wason, Eugene (Claekmannan)
Griffith, Ellis.J. Paulton, James Mellor White, George (Norfolk)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pearson, Sir Weetman D. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Whiteley, George (York.W. R.
Harwood, George Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Price, Robert John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Priestley, Arthur Williams, Osmond(Merioneth)
Helme, Norval Watson Rea, Russell Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Holland, Sir William Henry Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Horminan, Frederick John Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hndd'rsf'd
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Langley, Batty Runciman, Walter Mr. Channing and Mr.
Layland-Barratt, Francis Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Humphreys-Owen.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Clive, Captain Percy A. Flynn, James Christopher
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cogan, Denis J. Forster, Henry William
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Coghill, Douglas Harry Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gardner, Ernest
Anson, Sir William Reynell Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gilhooly, James
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Arrold, Sir William Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets
Ashton, Thomas Gair Compton, Lord Alwyne Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby- (Salop
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cranborne, Viscount Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bain, Colonel James Robert Creane, Eugene Grenfell, William Henry
Balcarres, Lord Cripps, Charles Alfred Gretton, John
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Greville, Hon. Ronald
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Crossley, Sir Savile Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W(Leeds Cubitt, Hon. Henry Guthrie, Walter Murray
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Banbury, Frederick George Davenport, W. Bromley- Hambro, Charles Eric
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Delany, William Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Devlin, Joseph Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry
Beckett, Ernest William Dickson, Charles Scott Hammond, John
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Bignold, Arthur Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bigwood, James Dillon, John Harris, Frederick Leverton
Blundell, Colonel Henry Donelan, Captain A. Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Boland, John Doogan, P. C. Haslett, Sir James Horner
Bond, Edward Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Duke, Henry Edward Hay, Hon. Claude George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hayden, John Patrick
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Bull, William James Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Henderson, Sir Alexander
Burdett-Coutts, W. Faber, George Denison (York) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Butcher, John George Farrell, James Patrick Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)
Campbell. John (Armagh, S.) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside
Carlile, William Walter Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man. Houldswoith, Sir Wm. Henry
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Uerbysh.) Ffreneh, Peter Hoult, Joseph
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Howard, John (Kent, Faversh' m
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Finch, George H. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hoxier, Hon. JamesHenry Cecil
Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r Fisher, William Hayes Hudson, George Bickersteth
Chapman, Edward Flannery, Sir Fortescue Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)
Charrington, Spencer Flavin, Michael Joseph Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Churchill, Winston Spencer Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Clancy, John Joseph Flower, Ernest Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Murray, Charles J, (Coventry) Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Myers, William Henry Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight
Jordan, Jeremiah Newdigate, Francis Alexander Skewes -Cox, Thomas
Joyce, Michael Nicholson, William Graham Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Nicol, Donald Ninian Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Keswick, William Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
King, Sir Henry Seymour Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Stanley Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Law, Andrew Bonai (Glasgow) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Lawrenee, Sir Josoph (Mon m'th O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Lawson, John Grant O'Donnell John (Mayo, S.) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Leamy, Edmund O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm O'Malley, William Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie O'Mara, James Sullivan, Donal
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Talbot, Lord E (Chichester)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Parkes, Ebenezer Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ
Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n Thornton, Percy M.
Loder, Gerald Walter Krskine Peel Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Tollemache, Henry James
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Penn, John Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Loug. Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S Pierpoint, Robert Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lowe, Francis Sir William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Tully, Jasper
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Power, Patrick Joseph Valentia, Viscount
Lyttelton Hon. Alfred Pretyman, Ernest George Walker, Col. William Hall
Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Pryce Jones, Lt. Col. Edward Warr, Augustus Frederick
Macdona, John Gumming Purvis, Robert Webb, Colonel William George
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Pym, C. Guy Welby, Lt. -Col A. C. E (Taunton
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Randles, John S. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Rankin, Sir James Whiteley, H. (Ashton Un. Lyne
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Rasch. Major Frederic Carne Whitmore, Charles Algernon
M'Ken, John Ratchff, R. F. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F. Reddy, M. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh. Redmond, John E. (Waterford Willox, Sir John Archibald
Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton Redmond, William (Clare) Wills, Sir Frederick
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Reid, James (Greenock) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Milvain, Thomas Renshaw, Charles Bine Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Renwick, George Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Richards, Henry Charles Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Ritchie, R. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wrighton, Sir Thomas
Morrell, George Herbert Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wylie, Alexander
Morrison, James Archibald Roche, John Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dept ford Round, Rt. Hon. Charles
Murnaghan, George Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Murphy, John Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Sir William Walrond and
Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Mr. Anstruther.

said the object of the Amendment he now moved was to reverse the number of representatives to be appointed by the major local authority and by the minor local authority. The Clause proposed that the County Councils should appoint not more than four managers, and the minor local authority not more than two. He proposed to reverse that. He believed that his proposal would not only find considerable acceptance in the House, but in the country at largo. If the majority of the members were to be nominated by the county authority, that would naturally deprive the locality of a large share of the interest it would otherwise take in the management of its own schools. Small localities were intensely interested in their local affairs. Hon. Members would find that a member of an Urban District Council would be reported at greater length in the local papers than the First Lord of the Treasury himself. They would also find that the interest that would be taken in the schools of a particular locality by the County Council would be almost infinitesimal as compared with the interest taken in them by the local authority. He would, therefore, urge on the right hon. Gentleman the necessity of giving the local authority a larger share in the management of the schools. The object of the right hon. Gentleman was no doubt to prevent a conflict of authority between the major and the minor authorities, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that any such objection was entirely theoretical. His hon. friend who was at the head of the secondary education system in Wales would agree with that statement. In every county in Wales the county authority only appointed a fourth or a fifth of the local governing body for the schools, and according to the right hon. Gentleman there ought to he constant conflict between the local governing body and the county authority; but as a matter of fact that was not the case. Questions arose between the two authorities, but they were invariably settled amicably; and there was no instance of the two authorities coming into sharp conflict. In Wales they had enlisted local sympathy on behalf of the schools, and they had succeeded in doing that without exciting any conflict of jurisdiction whatever. There was another question raised by the Amendment. He proposed to leave out the words "not exceeding four" in order to insert "of whom one-third shall be." He thought that it would be more convenient that the proportion to which each authority would be entitled should be fixed rather than that an arbitrary number should be laid down. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment, and he could assure him that the objections to it were theoretical and not practical.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words 'not exceeding four.' and insert the words 'of whom one-third shall be.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."


said he entirely concurred with the hon. Gentleman that the common sense of Englishmen was such that probably no distribution of power as between the County Councils and the minor authorities would necessarily or even in any very considerable percentage of cases produce a deadlock; but the hon. Gentleman appeared to forgot that after all the County Council was to be the supreme authority in all matters of education, and, that being so, it was only reasonable to give them a majority. The hon. Gentleman said that the County Councils would appoint members of their own body who would be indifferent to the wants of particular localities. He did not believe for a moment that they would do anything of the kind. They would, of course, select, whenever they could, persons on the spot who had cognisance of the district. In all the circumstances of the case, it seemed to him that it would be extremely foolish, after the Committee had decided that the County Council was, to be the supreme authority in all matters 'of education, to hand over to an inferior body the appointment of the majority of the managers, which might, although he did not think they would, come into conflict with the superior authority.


said that many obstructions to educational progress in the country had been stated during the discussions on the Bill, such as lack of money, lack of co-ordination, and lack of popular management; but there was one obstruction which had not yet been mentioned. It was the most serious obstruction of all, and one which Parliament could not remove. That was the lack of interest on the part of the people in the schools. He spoke as an ex-school teacher, and he said that if the Bill did anything in the way of increasing popular interest in education, then, indeed, it would be a great educational reform Bill But it seemed to him that the proposal of the Government was calculated to diminish the interest taken by the people of the locality in their schools. The existing lack of interest was notorious, and much to be regretted. Speaking in June 1898, the Vice President said that it was responsible for the gross irregularity of an appreciable section of the children, and for the early age at which the children went into the labour market. Let them contrast that lack of interest with the interest taken in education in Germany, where the poorer classes were alive to the value of education, and had sympathy with the highest educational alms. the only way to create a similar atmosphere in this country was to give the people a direct interest in the management of their schools. He did not put it forward as a Party question, but merely as a means of interesting the people of the locality in their schools. There might not be very much difference between the proposal of the Government and the proposal of his hon. friend, but the latter was more likely to stimulate interest on the part of the people. He hoped the First Lord of the Treasury would reconsider his decision, and allow each locality to select a majority of the members to manage its own schools.

SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)

said that, in the interests of education, he would join in the appeal of his hon. friend to the right hon. Gentleman. When the Bill began to work, there would be many districts where education had been well managed, where the local authority was greatly interested in it, and where the community generally had been proud of its schools. In those cases, he thought that there possibly might be friction. It was quite possible that the County Council might be out of touch and out of harmony with the political complexion of a particular district, and in that case the interposition of Council nominees might be likely to lead to friction, which would not conduce to the progress of education. That might be avoided by the acceptance of the present or a similar Amendment. They should, as far as possible, endeavour to keep up local interest in schools, and they should not do anything which might be regarded as a snub to the local authority. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider very carefully whether he could not gain all he wished by giving the local authority. majority of local managers, and allow the County Council to send in a sufficient number to keep the control in their own hands. As the County Council had control of the money, they would be bound to have control of the local authority also.

*MR. EDWARDS (Radnorshire)

said he desired to support the Amendment, and he did so all the more readily because of his own experience in Wales. He failed to see what objection there could be to giving a locality the power to choose two-thirds of the local managers. The Prime Minister said a vigorous minority could do a great deal. This implied a conflict between the representatives of the County Council and of the local body, although it could only be on subordinate questions, because the County Councils would have supreme control of the schools. But if the matters in dispute would be unimportant, that was all the more reason why the opinion of the locality should be allowed to prevail. If it were good to have an expression of local opinion at all, then it ought to I be trusted altogether; and if, on the other hand, local opinion were untrustworthy, it ought to be left alone. Hon. Members opposite were anxious that the children should be educated in accordance with the desires of their parents; but the Amendment afforded an opportunity of I carrying out that idea, because it would allow the parents to show, in a practical way, how they wished their schools to be managed. He, himself, was in favour of trusting the parents, but hon. Members opposite appeared to be afraid of that. The board schools were under popular control, and they had given better results than the voluntary schools; and he thought that, from an educational point of view, there was nothing to be feared in accepting the Amendment. They had been told that the smaller School Boards had done badly, but that was because their areas were too small. The Bill, however, remedied that, as the County Council was to be the supreme authority, and only details of management would be dealt with by the governing body, on which he thought the locality ought to have a majority.

MR. TREVELYAN (Yorkshire, W. R., Elland)

said that the importance of the Amendment lay in its influence for exciting local interest in education. With reference to the argument of the First Lord of the Treasury that friction might be caused between the two authorities concerned, it should be remembered that the duties which the managers would have to perform would be of an unimportant character, unless the Council elected to hand over to them the choice of teachers. Apart from that, the duty of the managers would be to merely watch the ordinary working of the schools, and the subjects on which there-could possibly be a quarrel would be very few indeed. It seemed to him that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was very weak as compared with the great importance of giving the locality some interest in its schools. In the real interest of education, they should get the people to feel that the schools were their own. The local education authority would have the opportunity of picking out persons in a comparatively humble position who were interested in education, but the County Council would be utterly unable to make any selection of persons who bad not hitherto been known for their interest in education. The advantage of the School Board system was that it brought out a class of persons who otherwise would not have been brought to the front. The County Council would have to select men by types. They would have no other standard, and they would select a clergyman, or the squire, or the Nonconformist minister, or the local land agent, because of their position, and not because of their interest in education. There was no other way of finding out persons who were interested in education, except by giving the locality power to select a majority of members.


said he cordially supported the Amendment, because the proposal of the Government put on the County Councils a burden greater than they could bear. It was impossible that the County Councils could make themselves sufficiently acquainted with the circumstances in each parish to enable them to appoint proper representatives on the Board of management. The people to be elected should be on the spot; and who could better select them than the Parish Council? He was happy to say that in his part of the country there was not the lack of local interest to which the hon. Member for North Camberwell had referred. In his own parish the Parish Council appointed a small sub-committee to manage the schools; and that was the proper course to follow. A representation of a third would be quite sufficient for the County Council.

MR. MILDMAY (Devonshire, Totnes)

said that in many country villages, where an interest was taken in education, there was a difficulty on the part of the people in reconciling themselves to the abolition of the School Boards, especially where there were working men representatives on them. The only way in which they could be reconciled was by the suggestion that perhaps it might be possible to introduce an Amendment into the Bill, by which the best men on the country School Boards might find places on the Managing Boards of the schools. That had been brought to his notice over and over again in his own constituency; and he hoped that the Government might see fit to consider the possibility of accepting the Amendment.


said he had noticed that several hon. Members had assumed that there might be friction between the managers and the local education authority. The Committee were in a difficulty in discussing the matter, because they did not know precisely what the relations between the Board of managers and the local authority were to be; but in so far as they had any light on the subject, it seemed to him impossible that friction could arise. The Prime Minister stated the other day that the managers would be the servants of the local authority; and how, then, could there be friction? The right hon. Gentleman referred to Section 15 of the Act of 1870 as the principle by which the Government intended to be guided; but that section gave power to the School Boards to delegate any of their powers to a body of managers to be appointed by them. Was that power to be conferred on the local authority?


said only as regarded the four members.


said that what he understood was that the whole of the managers were to be the servants of the education authority to carry out its decrees. Were they to understand that the men appointed by the local authority were to carry out the wishes of that authority, and that the other members were to be independent? If the members to be elected by the minor authority were to be independent of the major authority, then, no doubt, the Amendment meant a great deal, because friction would be possible; but if the managers were to be the servants of the education authority, he could not see where the friction could arise; and he was, therefore, inclined to strongly support the Amendment.


said that the County Councils would have full financial control of the schools; and he himself could not imagine how any serious conflict could possibly arise. Whether the number of managers was great or small, the control of the County Council would be exercised. On the other hand, the real difficulty would be that the County Council would, in many cases, be regarded as being a long way off The more they were in touch with the locality, and the more they could work through persons on the spot, always having this tight financial control, the better, and not the worst, it would be for the County Council. He regretted that this part of the Bill was not based on the principle of entrusting the local administration to some local authority, whether the Parish or Urban Council, and placing the whole under the financial control of the County Council. There was much prejudice with regard to the Rural Councils. They were said to be composed of farmers who were hostile to education. He did not admit the truth of that statement, but even if it were the case, was it not likely that, just as working men would be interested in education by having the management placed in their hands, so a stronger public interest in education would be created in rural districts by these duties being placed on the Rural Councils? The weakness of the small School Boards had been their extreme poverty, but directly the financial control was given to the County Council that difficulty would be removed, and an immense improvement would be effected in the whole system of local administration, by the mere fact that the financial control was taken away from the smaller area and put upon the larger. He hoped that in some way the local element with regard to school management would be strengthened, and he believed that if the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment in the direction he had suggested, the progress of the Bill would be greatly facilitated.

(12.20.) MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

said the interruption of the First Lord to the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo had thrown a new light on this question. It was news that the managers would be divided into two classes, but it was now possible to understand why the First Lord anticipated conflict. Four of the managers would be creatures of the major authority, and the remaining two would be critics of the other four. It was desirable that the people of a locality should take greater interest in education. The only question for discussion seemed to be as to which of the two bodies was the more likely to suggest men able to look after the education of a district. Was it the authority meeting twenty miles away, or the authority which knew the people living in the district? If the Committee were really in earnest in their desire to get managers who knew the needs of the locality, the only way in which that object could be secured was by allowing the local authority to elect the men. In many districts there were School Boards consisting of five persons. If the local authority was reduced to selecting two, there would be a considerable surplus of men who had for years been devoted to the education of the district. He submitted that the authority should have the right to elect at any rate, four, so that the talents of these men might be utilised. It was really absurd that a borough of say 9,500 inhabitants should be able to elect only two representatives, while the County Council at a distance elected four.

MR. CHARLES ALLEN (Gloucestershire, Stroud)

thought that if the Committee could be polled, probably 75 per cent, would agree that the great stumbling block in the way of education was the indifference among the masses of the people, and that the greatest reform they could achieve would be to create a greater interest in the elementary education of the country. If the right hon. Gentleman would accept this Amendment there really seemed to be a chance of something being done for the good of education. It was frequently said that interest in education did not exist in the county districts, that five-member School Boards were utterly hopeless, and that nothing would be done by such bodies. To disprove that he instanced the case of a small School Board, of which he had knowledge. That Board was founded eight years ago to take over two voluntary schools. The population was 960, and they rated themselves at £3 per head for building purposes. They set to work and improved the average attendance from 99 to 100. That, he thought, was a good sample of excellent work being done where local interest was excited. If the right hon. Gentleman would keep in mind that the main object was to induce people to take an interest in education, and that this could be done by giving local authorities —who, after all, were in close touch with their constituents—the right to elect a considerable proportion of the local managers of the schools, he would be doing a great work for the benefit of elementary education.


said that, being a voter in the division, he had taken great interest in the educational work referred to by the hon. Member for North Norfolk. In Cromer for the last seven years, they had had a School Board, a number of the members of which were working people who had devoted themselves to the cause of education. They had one member of the County Council —an exceedingly good representative in a way, but he was elected because he had the time and could afford to travel fifty miles on County Council days to discharge his duties as a councillor. What interest would the people of Cromer have in this new educational scheme when the management of their schools was transacted many miles away? The local interest would be entirely destroyed. If they could induce the Prime Minister to accept this Amendment and allow the residents of a small township to elect four managers so as to retain their personal interest, the continuation of the progress they had made during the last seven years would be secured. How could this be secured under the Bill as it stood, because the whole thing would be abolished? This was not a theological difference or a question of retaining the power in the hands of one particular denomination. Surely this local interest in educational work ought not to be destroyed, and if the Prime Minister would only detach himself from prejudicial associations on his own side, he felt certain that he would be the first man to see the necessity and value from a national point of view of continuing local interest, especially in educational affairs.


said it had been argued that if the Amendment were not adopted popular interest in education— which they should desire to uphold— would be destroyed. Neither in Germany nor in Scotland, the two places where interest in education was strongest, and of the longest growth, did it in the least depend on popular election. In Scotland it was of an old historic growth, and existed long before the era of School Boards. They had no right to assume the County Councils were going to behave in so idiotic a fashion as to ignore the best men in each locality to do this work. Were they to believe that when they had got five efficient managers for such a place as Cromer that the County Council was going to ignore these gentlemen whom the hon. Member for Leicester had referred to, who had had great educational experience, and go outside the limits of Cromer to some distant parts of Norfolk and ask other gentlemen to do the work? Besides, if the Amendment were adopted there would be a danger of conflicts between the County Council and the Board of Managers. He hoped the Committee would come at once to a decision on the point.


said the right hon. Gentleman had made it perfectly clear that this was not a Committee of the County Council, but a perfectly-independent body, and the only control the County Council would have over it would be that the four nominees of the County Council might be changed. The First Lord of the Treasury had said that the County Council was not a body which was likely to do very foolish or fatuous things, but was that really the question? If the County Council did not know the people who resided in the locality they could not appoint the best men. If the right hon. Gentleman knew how County Councils worked, and if he had had any experience of the difficulty they experienced in picking men suitable to represent a locality, he would not support the doctrine he had put forward. Could the right hon. Gentleman point out a single instance where a County Council appointed the majority upon any local body? In Wales the majority was appointed by the locality. The County Councils appointed representatives, but there was hardly any case where they appointed a majority. The only case he knew in which the County Council appointed a majority was in regard to the River Conservation Board, and he asked anybody if they regarded that as a satisfactory body? On that Board men were appointed who did not know the locality, and, as a rule, one man got up and nominated the whole body, with the result that it was generally left to the local landowners. With this experience before them, why should they decline to follow the precedent of the Welsh County Councils. The success of this educational system would depend upon the quality of the men and women appointed as managers. They would be entrusted with the most important duty of appointing teachers and fixing their salaries. Upon the salary depended the quality of the person who would apply for the post, and, therefore, the whole success of the schools would depend upon the kind of managers who were appointed. Even in the large county like Glamorganshire, in some of the rural districts, they had a great difficulty in getting men to come to the County Council meetings on account of the distance. Often they had to go to the neighbouring town for a representative, with the result that they I did not get men who knew the locality,' and they were selected purely because the district knew them as good business men, and because they were in general sympathy with the political views of the inhabitants. Would it not be much better to leave it to the Parish Councils, who knew the best men, and who had the confidence of the locality, to appoint the managers? Two or three qualifications were wanted in a Board of Managers. Were the members of the County Council the best people to pick out men with local knowledge, educational experience, local government experience, and business experience? The County Council could not pick out four men in a parish who would be the best for the purpose. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was wrong when he talked about friction. He agreed that on the whole it was

better that there should not be friction, but there was a certain kind of friction which did good. They would have a locality demanding a larger share of the grants than the County Council were prepared to concede to it. There would be friction on that account, but that was healthy friction. On questions of rivalry with respect to staff and equipment there would also be friction, but that was the best thing in the world for improving the standard of the schools. Another kind of friction might arise in this way. Supposing the County Council was of one political or religious complexion, and they had within the area of their jurisdiction a parish or town of 10,000 of a different political complexion. There they might have a Liberal majority on the Board of Managers administering the education of a district which might be Conservative and Church. It might be the other way about. The result would be that there would be friction of the worst sort. The right hon. Gentleman had said that this was not a political matter. Why then did he not leave it open to the Committee to decide?

MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Glamorganshire, Rhondda)

urged the necessity and the desirability of retaining in the locality an intelligent interest in the management of the schools. In the part of the country from which he came the efficiency of the education given had increased, as the interest of the people in education had increased. If they decreased the interest of the people in the appointment of managers so would their interest in and the efficiency of education decrease. He hoped the Amendment would be agreed to.


rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(12.55.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 179; Noes, 121. (Division List No. 326.)

Acland -Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Anson, Sir William Reynell Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy
Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden Arrol, Sir William Bailey, James (Walworth)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Grenfell, William Henry Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Greville, Hon. Ronald Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Parkes, Ebenezer
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W.(L'ds Guthrie, Walter Murray Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Hamilton, Rt. Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley
Bathurst, hon. Allen Benjamin Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Beckett, Ernest William Hare, Thomas Leigh Pretyman, Ernest George
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Harris, Frederick Leverton Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Beresford, Lord Chas. William Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Purvis, Robert
Bignold, Arthur Haslett, Sir James Horner Randles, John S.
Bigwood, James Hay, Hon. Claude George Rankin, Sir James
Blundell, Colonel Henry Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Reid, James (Greenock)
Bond, Edward Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Renwick, George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Butcher, John George Hoult, Joseph Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Carlile, William Walter Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Hudson, George Bickersteth Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cecil Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Charrington, Spencer Keswick, William Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I of Wight)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East
Clive, Captain Percy A. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lawson, John Grant Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cranborne, Lord Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Crossley, Sir Savile Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Thornton, Percy N.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Davenport, W. Bromley- Lowe, Francis William Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Dickson, Charles Scott Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Valentia, Viscount
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Walker. Col. William Hall
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Warde, Col. C. E.
Duke, Henry Edward Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Warr, Augustus Frederick
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Macdona, John Gumming Webb, Colonel William George
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Manners, Lord Cecil Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund, Lyne
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r Melville, Beresford Valentine Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Fielden, Edward Broeklehurst Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Finch, George H. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Willox, Sir John Archibald
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvain, Thomas Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Fisher, William Hayes Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W Morrell, George Herbert. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gardner, Ernest Morrison, James Archibald Wylie, Alexander
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Gordon, Maj Evana-(T'r H'ml'ts Mount, William Arthur
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Sal'p Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Sir William Walrond and
Goulding, Edward Alfred Nicholson, William Graham Mr. Anstruther.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. K.) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Causton, Richard Knight Dillon, John
Allen. Charles P. (Gloue. Stroud Cawley, Frederick Doogan, P. C.
Atherley-Jones, L. Channing, Francis Allston Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Clancy, John Joseph Duffy, William J.
Black, Alexander William Gogan, Denis J. Duncan, J. Hastings
Boland, John Craig, Robert Hunter Edwards, Frank
Broadhurst, Henry Crean, Eugene Farrell, James Patrick
Brown, George M, (Edinburgh Cremer, William Randal Fenwick, Charles
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Dalziel, James Henry Ffrench, Peter
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Flavin, Michael Joseph
Buxton, Sydney Charles Delany, William Flynn, James Christopher
Caldwell, James Devlin, Joseph Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Mac Veagh, Jeremiah Roche, John
Gilhooly, James M'Kean, John Runciman, Walter
Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Kenna, Reginald Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Grant, Corrie Mansfield, Horace Rendall Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) Mather, Sir William Shipman, Dr. John G.
Griffith, Ellis J. Morley. Charles (Breconshire Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Moss, Samuel Soares, Ernest J.
Hammond, John Murnaghan, George Strachey, Sir Edward
Harwood, George Murphy, John Sullivan, Donal
Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Norman, Henry Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)
Helme, Norval Watson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N. Toulmin, George
Horniman, Frederick John O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Warner, Thomas Court enay T.
Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Malley, William White, George (Norfolk)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshr. O' Mara, James White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Jordan, Jeremiah Partington, Oswald Whiteley, George (York., W. R
Joyce, Michael Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Labouehere, Henry Power, Patrick Joseph Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Priestley, Arthur Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Layland-Barratt, Francis Rea, Russell Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Reddy, M. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Levy, Maurice Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Lewis, John Herbert Redmond, William (Clare)
Lough, Thomas Rickett, J. Compton TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Mr. William M'Arthur.

(1.8.) Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 170; Noes, 126. (Division List No. 327.)

Acland Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Crossley, Sir Savile Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoult, Joseph
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Davenport, William Bromley- Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm
Arrol, Sir William Dickson, Charles Scott Hudson, George Bickersteth
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Bailey, James (Walworth) Duke, Henry Edward Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Bain, Colonel James Robert Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Keswick, William
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th
Beckett, Ernest William Finch, George H. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawson, John Grant
Beresford, Lord Chas. William Fisher, William Hayes Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm
Bignold, Arthur Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bigwood, James Foster, PhilipS. Warwick, S. W. Leveson -Gower, Frederick N. S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gardner, Ernest Lockwood, Lt. Col. A. R.
Bond, Edward Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Butcher, John George Gorst, Rt, Hn. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William
Carlile, William Walter Goulding, Edward Alfred Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Cavendish, V C W (Derbyshire Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Grenfell, William Henry Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Greville, Hon. Roland Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Charrington, Spencer Guthrie, Walter Murray Macdona, John Cumming
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x Manners, Lord Cecil
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W. F.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesh're
Colston, chas. Edw. H. Athole Harris, Frederick Leverton Melville, Beresford Valentine
Compton, Lord Alwyne Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Milvain, Thomas
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hay, Hon. Claude George Montagu, G. (Huntingion)
Canbrorne, Viscount Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire
Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Walker, Col. William Hall
Morrell, George Herbert Round, Rt. Hon. James Warde, Colonel C. E.
Morrison, James Archibald Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Warr, Augustus Frederick
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Webb, Colonel William George
Mount, William Arthur Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton
Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne
Nicholson, William Graham Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Nicol, Donald Ninian Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Pease, Herbt, Pike (Darlington Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Pretyman, Ernest George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wylie, Alexander
Purvis, Robert Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Randles, John S. Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Rankin, Sir James Thornton, Percy M.
Reid, James (Greenock) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Renwick, George Tufnell, Lieut.-Colonel Edward Sir William Walrond and
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Valentia, Viscount Mr. Anstruther.
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.) Grant, Corrie O'Mara, James
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Griffith, Ellis J. Partington, Oswald
Allen, Chas. P. (Gloue., Stroud Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Atherley-Jones, L. Hammond, John Power, Patrick Joseph
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Harwood, George Priestley, Arthur
Black, Alexander William Hayden, John Patrick Rea, Russell
Boland, John Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Reddy, M.
Broadhurst, Henry Helme, Norval Watson Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Holland, Sir William Henry Redmond, William (Clare)
Brunner. Sir John Tomlinson Horniman, Frederick John Rickett, J. Compton
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Caldwell, James Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire Roche, John
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Jordan, Jeremiah Runciman, Waller
Causton, Richard Knight Joyce, Michael Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Cawley, Frederick Labouchere, Henry Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Charming, Francis Allston Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Clancy, John Joseph Layland-Barratt, Francis Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cogan, Denis J. Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Soares, Ernest J.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Levy, Maurice Strachey, Sir Edward
Craig, Robert Hunter Lewis, John Herbert Sullivan, Donal
Crean, Eugene Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Cremer, William Randall Lough, Thomas Thomas, F. Freeman - (Hastings
Dalziel, James Henry MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower
Delany, William Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift Toulmin, George
Devlin, Joseph Mac. Veagh, Jeremiah Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. M'Kean, John Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Kenna, Reginald Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dillon, John Mansfield, Horace Rendall White, George (Norfolk)
Doogan, P. C. Mather, Sir William White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Middlemore, John Throgmort'n Whitley, George (York, W. R.)
Duffy, William J. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duncan, J. Hastings Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank Moss, Samuel Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Farrell, James Patrick Murnaghan, George Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Fenwick, Charles Murphy, John Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Ffrench, Peter Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Norman, Henry Yoxall, James Henry
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Flynn, James Christopher O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Foster, Sir Michael(Lond, Univ. O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) TELLERS FOE THE NOES—
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Mr. William M'Arthur.
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Malley, William

said they had been in this Chamber for nearly twelve hours. There had only been one com- paratively brief interval, and most of them were beginning to feel that their faculties had been so over-taxed by the exertions they had made during the last eleven hours that they were hardly in a fit condition to carry on the discussions further. He thought the discussions that evening had been eminently pacific and reasonable, and the speeches had been short and relevant.


Oh, oh!


said that if the hon. Baronet the Member for Preston had been present during the whole of the evening he would have found it impossible to point to a single irrelevant speech. It was quite true that discussion did not always bear fruit, but he was sure that the First Lord of the Treasury did not wish that the discussions should take place when they could not be reported. The questions they were considering were of great importance, and they could not be reported if they went on longer. [Cries of "Oh, oh !"] As the right hon. Gentleman must wish that the same pacific spirit should be maintained, he thought he would see that it would be in the interests of the Bill, and more especially to the passage of this Clause, that he should now consent to allow them to go to bed. He moved to report progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again." — (Mr. Bryce.)


said he had no desire to put any undue strain upon the intellectual faculties of hon. Members opposite, but he thought the Committee would admit that it was only reasonable under the circumstances that they should finish the first portion of the Clause. He

would not ask the Committee afterwards to enter upon the more controversial question contained in the next sub-Section, but he thought they should finish this paragraph before adjourning, so as to begin the second paragraph on Wednesday. He would consent to report progress as soon as the first Amendment to the second sub-Section was reached. They all admitted that the next sub-Section raised difficulties, but the difficulties in the first sub-Section had now been for the most part surmounted, and what he desired was that they should proceed to finish this part of the Clause in order that they might start with the second sub-Section on Wednesday. He did not think this was unreasonable, and he hoped the suggestion would be accepted.


said he desired to call the Prime Minister's attention to the fact that there were certain hon. Members who served on Committees who won Id have to be in attendance at twelve o'clock in order to take part in the proceedings of the Committee, and under those circumstances he thought it was most unreasonable to expect hon. Members to continue the sitting. He had not the slightest sympathy with anything in the shape of obstruction, and he was quite as anxious to see this Bill passed into law as the Vice President of the Council. It was not. therefore, for the purpose of delaying the progress of this Bill that he appealed to the Prime Minister to have sonic consideration for those who had to attend Committees.

(1.27.) Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes. 119; Noes, 169. (Division List No. 328.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E) Cogan, Denis J. Flavin, Michael Joseph
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Craig, Robert Hunter Flynn, James Christopher
Allen. Charles P.(Glone., Stroud Crean, Eugene Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Athsrley-Jones, L. Cremer, William Randal Gilhooly, James
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Dalziel, James Henry Goddard, Daniel Ford
Black, Alexander William Delany, William Grant, Corrie
Boland, John Devlin. Joseph Grev, Rt. hon. Sir E. (Berwick
Broadhurst, Henry Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Griffith, Ellis J.
Brown, George M (Edin burgh Dillon, John Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Doogan, P. C. Hammond, John
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Harwood, George
Buxton, Sydney Charles Dully, William. J. Hayden, John Patrick
Caldwell, James Duncan, J. Hastings Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Edwards, Frank Helme, Norval Watson
Causton, Richard Knight Farell. James Patrick Holland, Sir William Henry
Channing, Francis Allston Fenwick, Charles Horniman, Frederick John
Claney, John Joseph Ffrench, Peter Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Jones, William (C'rnarvonshire O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Soares, Ernest J.
Jordan, Jeremiah O'Connor, James (Wieklow, W. Strachey, Sir Edward
Joyce, Michael O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Sullivan, Donal
Labouchere, Henry O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. O'Malley. William Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Layland-Barratt, Francis O'Mara, James Thomas, J A (Glam'rgan, Gower
Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Partington, Oswald Toulmin, George
Levy, Maurice Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lewis, John Herbert Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lloyd-George, David Power, Patrick Joseph Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Lough, Thomas Priestley, Arthur White, George (Norfolk)
MacDonnell, Dr Mark A. Rea, Russell White, Luke (York, E. R.)
MacNeill, John'Gordon Swift Reddy, M. Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Redmond, John E. (Waterford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
M'Kean, John Redmond, William (Clare) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
M'Kenna, Reginald Rickett, J. Compton Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Mansfield, Horace Rendall Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk. Mid.
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Moss, Samuel Roche, John Yoxall, James Henry
Murnaghan, George Runciman, Walter
Murphy, John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Herbert Gladstone and
Norman, Henry Shipman, Dr. John G. Mr. William M'Arthur.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lowe, Francis William
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Arrol, Sir William Finch, George H. Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy Fisher, William Hayes Macdona, John Cumming
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry. Manners, Lord. Cecil
Bain, Colonel James Robert Foster, PhilipS (Warwick, S. W. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r. Gardner, Ernest Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Melville, Beresford Valentine
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r'H'ml'ts Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.) Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby-(Salop Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Milvain, Thomas
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Beresford, Lord Charles William Grenfell, William Henry More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Bignold, Arthur Greville, Hon. Ronald Morgan, David J.(Walth'mstow
Bigwood, James Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morrell, George Herbert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Guthrie, Walter Murray Morrison, James Archibald
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Mount, William Arthur
Butcher, John George Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute
Carlile, William Walter Harris, Frederick, Leverton Murray. Charles J. (Coventry
Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbyshire Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Nicholson, William Graham
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hay, Hon. Claude George Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Parkes, Ebenezer
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset. E. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n
Charrington, Spencer Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt, Wellesley
Churchill, Winston Spencer Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pretyman, Ernest George
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hoult, Joseph Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Purvis, Robert
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hudson, George Bickersteth Randles, John S.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Reid, James (Greenock)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Renwick, George
Cranborne. Lord Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Ritcie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Keswick, William Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Crossley, Sir Savile Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Round, Rt. Hon. James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Davenport, William Bromley Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Dickson, Charles Scott Lawson, John Grant Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh' m Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Seel'y, Maj J. E. F. (Isle of Wight
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Duke, Henry Edward Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith,. James Parker (Lanarks.)
Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Dyke Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham Stanley Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Walker, Col. William Hall Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Warde, Colonel C. E. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Warr. Augustus Frederick Wodehouse, Rt. Hn.E. R. (Bath
Strut, Hon. Humphry Napier Webb, Colonel William George Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Welby, Lt -Col. A. C. E. (Ta'nt'n Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Thornton, Percy M. Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne
Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. William's. Colonel R. (Dorset) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Tnfnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Sir William Walrond and
Valentia, Viscount Willox, Sir. John Archibald Mr. Anstruther.

said he moved the Amendment standing in his name in order that County Councils should have better opportunities of consulting local feeling. The Bill practically provided that the nomination of managers should be in the hands of the county councillor for the district, and this was placing a very large piece of patronage in the hands of a single individual. It was not right for one particular individual to have the power of appointing a majority of that body which have hitherto been known as the School Board for the district. He thought that was an argument which would commend itself to the common sense of the Committee as a whole. His suggestion was that the minor authority should have the right to submit eight names to the major local authority. The minor authority had the best experience to enable them to make an impartial selection. He did not suggest that they should have the actual selection and appointment, but he thought they should be entitled to frame a list and submit it to the County Council in order that they might select four names. The result would be that they would secure the appointment of a better class of men, who would be more likely to attend to their work and do it more efficiently than others who might be selected from outside districts. He thought this alternative contained in his Amendment was infinitely the best thing to do in the interests of the schools, and he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 3, after the word 'four,' to insert the words 'selected from eight names submitted by the minor local authority and.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


said this Amendment was inconsistent with the spirit of what had already been decided. The Committee had already determined that the majority of the Board of Managers should he appointed by the local authority, and to introduce this extremely complicated Amendment would give the minor authority a sort of control which would be inconsistent with the spirit of the decision to which the Committee had already come. He did not think the Amendment would be of any use whatever, because no doubt the local authority,; before making its appointments, would consult local feeling in the matter; and he contended that the making of a formal recommendation of eight names from which the local authority must 'select four was contrary to the decision which the Committee had already come to, and it would introduce more complicated machinery into the management of the schools.


said he thought that this Amendment was a moderate suggestion as a compromise between the view they wished to support on the previous Amendment and the views of His Majesty's Government. This Amendment and the preceding one, which had been discussed at some length affected his own constituency perhaps more than any other point remaining in the Bill. He should like the right hon. Gentleman to throw a little more light on the meaning of various parts of this Bill as bearing upon this question. The First Lord of the Treasury made no allusion whatsoever to Clause 15, and what was contemplated under that Clause in this Bill. Under that clause there might be the largest devolution of duties and powers of the County Council in respect of elementary education to the minor authorities. What they now had to decide depended largely on what would really be done under Clause 15. The position in his own division was practically this. He had in his constituency a number of minor local authorities, and in each district they had a highly efficient School Board. There would be in these districts a large number of men and women highly qualified by experience on the School Boards and especially men who directly represented labour, who would make most efficient managers of schools. He thought the Committee had reason to complain of the attitude of the Government towards this and the previous Amendments. In the Bill of 1896 it was actually contemplated that these minor authorities should compulsorily be made the authority to appoint the managers to deal with the schools. Even with the present Bill, destructive as it was of the local autonomy which was of such vital importance to the efficiency of education, secondary education had been conceded to the minor authorities. And as to elementary education, a considerable possibility of delegation to these authorities was contemplated. It was extremely hard, therefore, that the Government should refuse to assent to the moderate proposal now before the Committee. The Amendment in no sense gave a dictatorial power to the minor authority, it merely claimed the right for the local authorities, who knew the qualifications of suitable persons, to suggest a list of names from which the selection might be made, and it, was very unreasonable that the claim should be denied.


said that the Vice President seemed to think that the proposal would involve an innovation in local government. That was not at all the case. As a County Councillor, how was he to know the best men for this purpose in the 700 parishes of Norfolk? A list from the local authorities would be of immense assistance. For instance, a constable had to be appointed for every parish. The Parish or Urban Council sent up three or four names to the Petty Sessional Court to assist the magistrates in their selection. As a magistrate, he assured the Committee that the list was of the greatest possible assistance. If that was the case in one petty sessional division, how much more would it be so where 700 parishes were concerned The Amendment did not suggest that the local authority should appoint the men, but simply that they should submit a list from which the selection might be made; and, speaking from many years' experience of District, Urban, and County Council and magisterial work, he thought the list would be a real aid to the County Council.


pointed out that in the case of a parish sending one County Councillor, if there was no list the Practical effect would be that that County Councillor would have a very considerable voice as to who were to be the four. It was, therefore, desirable that some suggestion should be made to the Council, and the County Council would probably send down to ask for suitable names. Under these circumstances he thought this was a most reasonable Amendment, and he should certainly support it.

MR. RUNCIMAN (Dewsbury)

said they wished the minor local authority to have the right to name the people who would be the most efficient managers of their schools. He could hardly think the Vice President of the Council was serious; when he said that this Amendment would complicate the educational machinery of the district. Nothing could be simpler than to select eight names, one or two of which he hoped would be women, and the County Council could easily select from them a: Management Committee. He thought the County Councils would have the utmost difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of managers to form these Committees. He knew one great area where the County Council would have to select 5,000 managers to satisfy the scheme proposed by the First Lord of the Treasury. He thought the Committee would agree that the selection of 5,000 managers was a Herculean task. That was an impossible number for a County Council to select without the assistance of the minor local authority. He thought this was not an unreasonable effort to improve the Bill by combining local feeling and interest for the efficient management of the schools in the various localities.

(2.3.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 109; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 329.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Griffith, Ellis J. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Power, Patrick Joseph
Allen. Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud Hammond, John Priestley, Arthur
Atherley-Jones, L. Hayden, John Patrick Rea, Russell
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Reddy, M.
Black, Alexander William Helme, Norval Watson Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Boland, John Horniman, Frederick John Redmond, William (Clare)
Broadhurst, Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Rickett, J. Compton
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Caldwell, James Joyce, Michael Roche, John
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Channing, Francis Allston Layland-Barratt, Francis Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Clancy, John Joseph Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shipman, Dr. John G.
Cogan, Denis J. Levy, Maurice Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Craig, Robert Hunter Lloyd-George, David Soares, Ernest J.
Crean, Eugene MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sullivan, Donal
Cremer, William Randal MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Dalziel, James Henry MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Delany, William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower
Devlin, Joseph M'Kean, John Toulmin, George
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. M'Kenna, Reginald Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dillon. John Mansfield, Horace Rendall Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Doogan, P. C. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Moss, Samuel White, George (Norfolk)
Duffy, William J. Murnaghan, George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings Murphy, John Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Edwards, Frank Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Farrell, James Patrick Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, Charles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Flynn, James Christopher O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Gilhooly, James O'Malley, William
Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John O'Mara, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald Mr. Herbert Lewis and
Grant, Corrie Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Mr. Runciman.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (M'nc'r
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Finch, George H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Chamberlain, J. Austen (W're'r Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Charrington, Spencer Fisher, William Hayes
Arrol, Sir William Churchill, Winston Spencer Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Clive, Capt. Percy A. Gardner, Ernest
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Bain, Colonel James Robert Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Compton, Lord Alwyne Gore, Hn. GRC. Ormsby- (Salop
Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey) Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds Cranborne, Lord Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Grenfell, William Henry
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Crossley, Sir Savile Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Beresford, Lord Chas. William Davenport, William Bromley- Guthrie, Walter Murray
Bignold, Arthur Dickson, Charles Scott Hamilton, Rt Hn L'rdG. (Midd'x
Bigwood, James Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bond, Edward Duke, Henry Edward Harris, Frederick Leverton
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hay, Hon. Claude George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Butcher, John George Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Carlile, William Walter Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Hope, J, F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Hoult, Joseph More, Robert Jasper (Shr'pshire Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hudson, George Bickersteth Morrell, George Herbert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Morrison, James Archibald Sturt, Hou. Humphry Napier
Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W. (Salop Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Keswick, William Mount, William Arthur Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute) Thornton, Percy M.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (M'mn'th) Nicholson, William Graham Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Nicol, Donald Ninian Valentia, Viscount
Lawson, John Grant Parkes, Ebenezer Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington Walker, Col. William Hall
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Pretyman, Ernest George Warde, Colonel C. E.
Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N. S Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Warr, Augustus Frederick
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Purvis, Robert Webb. Colonel William George
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Randles, John S. Welby, Lt.-Col. A. CE (Taunton
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Reid, James (Greenock) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Renwiek, George Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne
Lowe, Francis William Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Williams, Colonel Rt. (Dorset)
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Round, Rt. Hon. James Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG Ellison Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Macdona, John Cumming Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Manners, Lord Cecil Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh. Smith, A bel H. (Hertford, East) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Melville, Beresford Valentine Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Smith, Hon W. F. D. (Strand) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Milvain, Thomas Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Sir William Walrond and
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Mr. Anstruther.
MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE (Essex, Saffron Walden)

moved— To insert after 'Council,' in line 3, the words 'two of whom shall be members of that Council.' He said this Amendment raised the question of popular control. If they could secure public control, he was satisfied that this Bill might become a workable measure, but if they failed to secure adequate public control he was satisfied that it would create considerable agitation in the country, and the education question would remain unsettled. What he proposed was that of the members who were appointed by the County Council on these local boards two should be members of the County Council. The Councils had to be elected, and the people would, therefore, place increased confidence In the managing bodies if a moiety of them were members of the Councils. They would feel that they bad some direct control over the managing bodies.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 3, after the word 'Council,' to insert the words, 'two of whom shall be members of that Council"—(Mr. Joseph A. Pease.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


said it had been urged that the representation of the locality as apart from the County Council should be strengthened and increased. It was evident that if this Amendment were adopted it would have the opposite effect. This would compel the County Council to ignore, so far as some members of the body were concerned, the locality in which the school to be managed was situated. He thought it extremely probable that in the large number of cases the County Council or the education authority would appoint persons of local experience, but they would be absolutely prevented from doing so by this Amendment. This would be a limitation in the wrong direction. Whatever other limitations they put on the County Council, they ought not to prevent them selecting the persons who were cognisant with the locality.


trusted that his hon. friend would not press this Amendment to a division. It would not serve the purpose he had in view.


said that in practical working it would be found that by grouping a large number of small parishes together, a body of six or eight individuals might be appointed as managers who could do a great deal more than look after the schools in one parish.


said he did not think the objection of the hon. Member for Carnarvon was serious. The Councillors on the bodies of managers would bring the County Council into conjunction with the local managers. In a few cases there might be a certain amount of grouping, but he did not think very much of that would be necessary to make the Amendment perfectly workable.


asked his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment. He held that it would be quite impracticable for a County Council like that of the West Riding of Yorkshire to appoint two of their number to be members of every managing Committee.


said that in counties which were smaller and less populous than the West Riding of Yorkshire it would be quite possible for the County Council to provide members for each of the managing bodies. He thought if the Amendment were accepted it would be

quite possible to introduce on the Report, stage words excepting such counties as the West Riding.


said he would bow to the feeling of the House and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

MR. JOSEPH WALTON (Yorkshire, W. R., Barnsley)

, in moving the next Amendment, said it seemed to him only reasonable that there should be three members on the Board of Management elected by the minor local authority and he hoped the Prime Minister would see his way to accept the Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 3, to leave out the word 'two,' and insert the word 'three.' "— (Mr. Joseph Walton.)

Question proposed, "That the word; 'two' stand part of the proposed Amendment."


said he hoped his hon. friend would not press his proposal, which, although technically in order, was asking the Committee to revise what had already been decided upon.

(2.33.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 155 Noes, 102. (Division List No. 330)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Butcher, John George Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Carlile, William Walter Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart-
Allhusen, Aug'tus H'nry Eden Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derb'shire Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r
Arrol, Sir William Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Fielden, Edward Brocklchurst
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Charrington. Spencer Finch, George H.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Churchill, Winston Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bain, Colonel James Robert Clive, Captain Percy A. Fisher, William Hayes
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Foster, Philip S (Warwick SW
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Gardner, Ernest
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds Compton, Lord Alwyne Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'k
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'r Hml'ts
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin Cranborne, Viscount Gore, Hn. G.R.C.Ormsby- (Salop
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Beresford, Lord Charles Willi'm Crossley, Sir Savile Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bignold, Arthur Dalrymple, Sir Charles Grenfell, William Henry
Bigwood, James Davenport, William Bromley- Greville, Hon. Ronald
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dickson, Charles Scott Guest, Hon. 'Ivor Churchill
Bond, Edward Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Guthrie, Walter Murray
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Douglas, Rt. Hen A. Akers Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Duke, Henry Edward Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.
Hare, Thomas Leigh Melville, Beresford Valentine Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Harris, Frederick Leverton Milvain, Thomas Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hay, Hon. Claude George More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E. Morrell, George Herbert Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Morrison, James Archibald Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Hoult, Joseph Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Thornton, Percy M.
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Mount, William Arthur Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Jessel, Captain H'bert Merton Murray Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Valentia, Viscount
Keswick, William Nicholson, William Graham Vincent, Col Sir CEH (Sheffield
Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. Nicol, Donald Ninian Warde, Colonel C. E.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Parkes, Ebenezer Warr, Augustus Frederick
Lawrence, Sir Jos'ph (Monm'th Pease, Herb't Pike (Darlington Webb, Colonel William George
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Pretyman, Ernest George Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE. (Taunton
Lawson, John Grant Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham Purvis, Robert Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Randles, John S. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. Reid, James (Greenock) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lockwood, Lt. -Col. A. R. Renwick, George Willox, Sir John Archibald
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lowe, Francis William Round, Rt. Hon. James Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lucas, Col, Francis (Lowest oft) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Macartney, Rt Hn. W G. Ellison Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Macdona, John Cumming Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) Sir William Walrond and
Manners, Lord Cecil Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. Mr. Anstruther.
Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Hammond, John Power, Patrick Joseph
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hayden, John Patrick Priestley, Arthur
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Rea, Russell
Atherley-Jones, L. Helme, Norval Watson Reddy, M.
Black, Alexander William Horniman, Frederick John Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Boland, John Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Redmond, William (Clare)
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, William (C'rnarvonshire Rickett, J. Compton
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Jordan, Jeremiah Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Joyce, Michael Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.
Caldwell, James Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Roche, John
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Layland-Barratt, Francis Runciman, Walter
Channing, Francis Allston Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Clancy, John Joseph Levy, Maurice Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cogan, Denis J. Lewis, John Herbert Shipman, Dr. John G.
Craig, Robert Hunter Lloyd-George, David Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Crean, Eugene MacVeagh, Jeremiah Soares, Ernest J.
Cremer, William Randal M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal
Dalziel, James Henry M'Kean, John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Delany, William M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Devlin, Joseph Mansfield, Horace Rendall Toulmin, George
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Trevelyan Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. Moss, Samuel Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Duffy, William J. Murnaghan, George White, George (Norfolk)
Duncan, J. Hastings Murphy, John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Edwards, Frank Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Farrell, James Patrick Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, Charles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Flynn, James Christopher O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Gilhooly, James O'Malley, William
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John O'Mara, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Goddard, Daniel Ford Partington, Oswald Mr. Joseph Walton and
Grant, Corrie Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Sir Brampton Gurdon.
Griffith, Ellis J. Pease, J, A. Saffron Walden)

Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Sir William Walrond)— put, and agreed to.


said the reason for the Amendment he now moved was that from experience it had been found that where there were two or more governing bodies, which bad to make appointments, they had to prescribe that which was to make the appointment.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 3, after the word 'two,' to insert the word 'subsequently.'" — (Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'subsequently' be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


hoped the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment, because he did not see how it would work in all cases, although it might work in some; and it would raise all sorts of legal difficulties.


said that it was important that one of these bodies should appoint the managers first, and it should be made a statutory direction as to which should make the first appointment.


said that, with the consent of the Committee, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


, in explaining his next Amendment, said he thought some words were necessary in order to make it perfectly clear what the position was of the county boroughs and of the Councils of the urban districts.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the first 'managers,' insert 'to whom the local education authority may from time to time delegate such of their powers and under such conditions as they think fit. It shall consist.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


said that the words were absolutely unnecessary, as the Clause provided that if the local authorities did not think fit to appoint managers, they must manage the schools themselves.


said he bowed always to so distinguished a legal authority, and he withdrew his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


moved to report progress.


said he would accept the Motion, provided that on the morrow no pressure was put on that side of the House.

Committee report progress; to sit again upon Wednesday.

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