HC Deb 15 July 1902 vol 111 cc319-40

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £707,712, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1903, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a Grant in Aid."

(9.0.) MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)

said that undoubtedly in Scotland, as in England, education was on the eve of considerable change, and that probably this would be the last occasion on which the Committee of the House would be able to express itself before these changes were brought forward by the Government. Under the Education Bill for England, the entire burden of elementary education and of secondary education up to a certain extent would be placed upon the ratepayers, the system thereby created thus approaching very closely to the existing Scottish system. To give effect to that system, the Government proposed to give to the English ratepayers a sum equal to 7s. 6d. per child in average attendance, and it was obvious that Scotland had a claim for an equivalent payment. The number of scholars in average attendance in Scotland was 645,404, which at 7s. 6d. per scholar would be £242,000 per annum.


Order, order! If the hon. Gentleman wishes to discuss an increase in the Grant that will require legislation, which, of course, is out of order on this vote.


said it was admitted on all hands that, owing to the payments made to England, Scotland would be entitled to the sum. He hoped therefore that, in the negotiations of the Scottish Education Department with the Treasury—


Order, order ! It is quite out of order to discuss the Education Bill upon this vote.


said he did not wish to discuss that Bill, but the policy which the Education Department would pursue in the matter with the Treasury.


Of course, whatever future negotiations may take place, they will have to result in legislation if an increased grant is given, and to discuss that would necessarily be out of order.


suggested that legislation was not necessary. This was the only way in which they had an opportunity of expressing an opinion.


I must rule the hon. Member out of order. We have only to deal with money granted out of the Estimates, and not with money which may in future be granted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.


said his point was that it would be quite competent to increase the grant by a Vote of the House under the Code. He hoped that the Scottish Office would insist on Scotland receiving equal treatment with England. When the Vote was last before the House, it was suggested that secondary education in Scotland should be dealt with on one uniform system, apart from the elementary system of education. He hoped the Government would not give any effect to a suggestion of that kind, because in Scotland—unlike England—their system had been entirely parochial, and had embraced in the same school secondary as well as elementary education. Another suggestion was that of the hon. Member for Haddingtonshire, that education in Scotland should be divided into centres connected with the four universities. A system of that kind would be foreign to Scottish education, and would, he thought, meet with very strong opposition. He was likewise entirely opposed to freeing secondary education, just as elementary education was free, because in Scotland they had already ample provision by which any child could make his way from the elementary school right on to the university. In these Estimates, only 3s. a head was given to the voluntary schools in Scotland, while the grant was 5s. a head in England, and that was another grievance. He moved to reduce the Vote by £100.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £707,612, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. Caldwell.)


said that the hon. Member had stated truly that the general policy of education in Scotland had been discussed on former occasions. With regard to the proper disposition of the secondary education money, it had always been the pride of the Scottish elementary school that the pupil could go on to the secondary education, and that position was acknowledged by the Act of 1872, which gave the School Boards not only the direction of elementary, but of secondary education. He understood the view of the hon. Member was that the best disposition of the money would be to encourage local effort, According to the best educational views, they did not do the best for secondary education by dribbing their help into what were essentially primary schools, but it was better to take advantage of what secondary schools existed at present, and make them better. There were parts of the country where there were excellent secondary schools, and where the task was a comparatively easy one; but there were other parts where there were no secondary schools, and that was one of the difficulties which they had to encounter, and in these circumstances, when they had only a certain amount of money, they must do the best they could with it. He did not think that it was for the benefit of education in the proper sense of the word and the public generally that necessarily they should pay at the expense of the State for the secondary education of every child. The proper view was rather to encourage the bursary system, or, in other words, the promotion of the child who was best fitted to go on to secondary education. But it was quite obvious that what was happening in connection with English education indicated a new departure on the part of the State, and in connection with this question they had to consider the situation in Scotland from its beginning. He had the assurance from the Prime Minister that equal justice in this matter would be done to Scotland and Ireland. It would be premature to consider how that was to be worked out, as the situation was different from that of England. They in Scotland might thank their stars that they never had had the religious difficulty as in England. In Scotland they were frankly denominational, and there was no difficulty in being denominational. They had the universal Board system, because they had not the denominational difficulty; but do not let them be trammelled by English precedent. The question would receive the earnest consideration of his noble friend; and there was no Scotsman who had given more earnest consideration to the question, or had a greater personal regard for the educational system, than had the present Secretary for Scotland. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman would not persist in his Motion.


said he moved the reduction in respect of the voluntary schools.


It was obvious that they would have to begin on a new basis. As the hon. Gentleman was aware, the grants now given in England would have to be surrendered under the Bill now before the House; and when Scotland received a new Imperial contribution, that would also apply. Therefore, the question raised by the hon. Gentleman was, perhaps, a matter of historical discussion between the hon. Gentleman and himself, but he did not think it was a sufficient ground on which to base a reduction of the vote.


said he had been ruled out of order when he attempted to deal with the new state of things; and, therefore, he would fall back on the existing state of things. He was not to be prevented from presenting his case to the Committee by the new proposals, which did not meet his objection at all. It was all very well for the Lord Advocate to say that the system was to be swept away; but how did they stand in Scotland at the present moment? In Scotland they only got 3s. per child in the voluntary schools, whereas 5s. per child was paid in England. All the other money required for education in Scotland was supplied from Scottish sources, and not a penny beyond 3s. per head was paid by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was an undoubted fact; and, therefore, so far as the estimate was concerned, it was unfair to Scotland.


said that if the hon. Gentleman would not take a reasonable view of the matter, he was quite prepared to argue with him a twice-told tale. The hon. Gentleman was in the illogical position, perhaps, because of the forms of the House, that he was moving to reduce the estimate because he had not got more. The hon. Gentleman would remember that his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated again and again that he entirely repudiated the idea of an equivalent grant—the idea that because England in one year got a certain sum of money for educational purposes, Scotland should also get a certain proportion calculated on the ratio of el even to eighty, or any other figure. That was really what was at the bottom of the hon. Gentleman's contention. What his right hon. friend said was that if England were given a certain additional subvention from the Imperial Exchequer for educational needs, that would necessarily raise a concomitant claim on the part of Scotland for her educational needs, but that they should look upon the situation as a whole. He had heard, he was sure, the speech of the hon. Gentleman at least seven times. What the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on the occasion to which the hon. Gentleman referred was that he would keep up the 12s. subvention to Scotland instead of the 10s. given to England. The hon. Member now said that that had not cost the Chancellor of the Exchequer a penny. That was true. But why? Simply because the produce of the probate duty had, owing to the prosperity of the country, turned out so much larger than was expected that there was no necessity to have recourse to the guarantee obligation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a promise which did not ring into money, but that was not the point on which the right hon. Gentleman was to be judged. The point was the total subvention from Imperial contributions for education in Scotland as against England. The hon. Member knew as well as he did that, taking every contribution to education from Imperial sources, it would be found that more per child was given in Scotland than was given in England. To a certain extent children in Scotland earned the money, but he could not think it could be regarded as a grievance when Scotland was paid more out of the Imperial Exchequer than England, and it did not seem to be a good reason for moving the reduction of the Vote. The real point of the speech of the hon. Gentleman was that he wished to have justice done to Scotland, in connection with the new arrangements. There he was entirely with the hon. Gentleman; but whether he would satisfy the hon. Gentleman in the application of the money was a different thing, as he would have to choose between the hon. Gentleman's views and the views of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Haddingtonshire. With reference to the past, there was no real grievance, and as regarded the future, there would necessarily have to be a new departure. Therefore, although he could not prevent the hon. Gentleman from moving his reduction, he thought he ought to be satisfied.

(9.38.) MR. RENSHAW (Renfrewshire, W.)

said that, speaking as one deeply interested in Scottish education, he could not contend that Scotland did not receive a very substantial grant from the Imperial Exchequer; and, although no doubt the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lanark believed he had a legitimate grievance, it was more apparent than real. He did not intend to answer any of the statements of the hon. Gentleman, but he wished to call the attention of the Lord Advocate to a point which he had brought before the Committee on a previous occasion. Under the provisions of the new code, larger grants had been given with a view to encouraging the establishment of higher departments in elementary schools in Scotland. The average grants varied from £3 10s. to £3 15s. per scholar, and there could be no doubt that the effect of establishing there higher departments, which had followed the giving of larger grants, had affected the attendance in the secondary schools. He did not think that that could be doubted. In many countries large sums were given to secondary schools on condition that a certain number of free places were provided for scholars who had passed an examination, had obtained the merit certificate, and had shown a capacity to benefit by secondary education. The secondary schools were to a certain extent competing schools with the higher departments. That being the case, he thought it was only right that the right hon. Gentleman should consider how far the dual system now established was calculated to effect really good work in regard to secondary education in Scotland. The question was one which was seriously exercising the minds of educationists in Scotland at present. If the existing system in Scotland were to be altered, then it seemed to him they would have to consider not only the system under which grants were at present distributed to higher departments in elementary schools, but also the system under which grants were distributed to secondary schools in which there were, elementary classes which were entirely attended by fee-paying scholars. As the right hon. Gentleman knew the County Committees had recently been appointed, and they were at present considering how they were to frame schemes for the ensuing three years. These schemes had to be framed with regard to the larger grants to be given to the higher departments in elementary schools; but there could be no doubt that the establishment of free scholarships in the secondary schools was, to some extent, driving out fee-paying scholars from the secondary schools. That was a result which it was not anticipated would follow from the distribution of the larger sums from Imperial sources. They knew very well that fresh legislation in regard to secondary education was imminent. No long period could elapse before it was dealt with, and, that being the case, he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to endeavour through the Department to collect information as to what the effect had been of the distribution of the larger funds and the establishment of free scholarships in the secondary schools He thought it would be regarded by all who knew the work carried on by the secondary schools in the past as unfortunate if an apparent competition was established between the higher departments of the elementary schools and the secondary schools proper. It was possible they were weakening the existing secondary schools; and he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to bring the matter before the Department with a view to its being carefully considered, and to ascertain whether the expenditure of money in providing free places in secondary schools—the junior departments of which were only attended by fee-paying scholars—unless in very exceptional cases.


said that from observation in his own constituency he was very much in agreement with what the hon. Gentleman opposite had just said, and he thought the hon. Gentleman's views were strictly correct. He had not spoken on the English Education Bill, but he had observed day after day discussions on the denominational colleges in England and their future treatment. It appeared to him that there was a way of escape from many of the difficulties which had been discovered with regard to England, and that was by following the example of Scotland in encouraging training departments for teachers in connection with colleges and universities. He had never been much in favour of denominational colleges, even in Scotland, because he regarded them as institutions for the cheap turning out of, in the main, an unsatisfactory class of teacher. The right line to take was to encourage students who proposed to make teaching their profession to pass through the universities. They could not accomplish everything at once, but they might develop the system of King's students in connection with the ordinary colleges and universities. It was most important that the teachers should be thoroughly competent and efficient; and it was with reference to the training of teachers that they had fallen behind Germany, America, and other countries. He knew from observation that the training department established in connection with the University College in Dundee, although only in existence for a comparatively short time, was attracting great attention, and was drawing to it the best class of young people who intended to make teaching their profession. Fortunately, they had at the head of the Scotch Education Department one of the most enlightened men who could hold that position. They had comparatively few grievances in connection with the Education Department; but, although there were defects to be remedied, and much to be done to bring themselves into line with what was being done abroad, still they were moving gradually and steadily in the right direction. He had no reason to complain of the Department, but rather to commend the work which had been already done. He only desired to strengthen the hands of the Department, and encourage it to pursue the line it was now taking.


said he did not know if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee was present when the question of the training of teachers was previously discussed.




If the hon. Gentleman had been present he thought he would have been quite satisfied, because he said then, and would repeat now, that there was every wish now on the part of the Department to amplify as far as possible the rôle played by the Universities in the training of teachers. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that that view had their entire sympathy. As to the view of his hon. friend the Member for West Renfrew, his hon. friend considered the matter from a wide point of view. He did not doubt that what his hon. friend had said might be a practical disadvantage; but, as had been said, they could not have everything at once. If he had any knowledge of his hon. friend's educational views, and he thought he had, his hon. friend would be the last man to support the views of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs that there should be free secondary education everywhere. But surely his hon. friend would be the last to say, if there was a really clever boy in a remote district who could not have the advantage of secondary education in that district, that he should not have a chance under any perfect educational system; and he did not know how that chance could be given except by a bursary. In justice to the individual they should have a number of free places. The views of his hon. friend would not be lost sight of in the scheme which they certainly would have to adopt at no distant date.


said that with regard to the 12s. per child the Lord Advocate distinctly stated on a former occasion that there would undoubtedly be a deficiency, which he estimated at £26,000 a year. He confessed that at that time that estimate was entirely erroneous. The Lord Advocate suggested that the probate duty was increased. It was not; but, even supposing it were, England had received her proportion of the increased probate duty, and had applied it to the relief of local rates. If they in Scotland applied their money to education, what had the Imperial Exchequer to say to it? He raised the question to show that whenever Scotch interests were concerned, they invariably met with opposition from Members representing Scottish constituencies on the other side of the House. They were told that it would be absolutely necessary to get £20,000 from the Imperial Exchequer. They had not got a penny of it; and yet it was now contended that it would have been paid had there been a deficiency. The Imperial purse was paying 5s. per child in England and only 3s. per child in Scotland; and the Government had no right to claim that because Scotland paid 2s. extra, the Exchequer was entitled to the benefit of it. That was the point on which he was prepared to take a division, and allow hon. Members opposite to vote against it.

MR. BANBURY (Camberwell, Peckham)

said that as one of the few English Members who happened to be present, he wished, with great deference, to say a word or two in reply to the hon. Gentleman. He had listened to the speeches of the hon. Gentleman on many previous occasions, and, as far as he could make out, the claim of the hon. Gentleman was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised £20,000 if it were required.


said that the Lord Advocate had stated it was required, and was absolutely necessary.


said that he had great admiration for the Lord Advocate, but even he could make a mistake. Apparently his right hon. friend had made

a mistake, provided always that the statement of the hon. Gentleman was accurate. The money was to be given for educational purposes. It was not wanted for educational purposes in Scotland; but the hon. Gentleman said that, although it was not wanted for educational purposes, it could be applied to something else. He objected to that. Scottish children were more clever than English children, and no doubt could be educated more cheaply. If the money were required for education in Scotland, it should be given—not otherwise.

(10.6.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 72; Noes, 123. (Division List No. 292.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E) Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Rea, Russell
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Jordan, Jeremiah Reddy, M.
Boland, John Joyce, Michael Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Kennedy, Patrick James Rickett, J. Compton
Burke, E. Haviland- Labouchere, Henry Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Causton, Richard Knight Layland-Barratt, Francis Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Channing, Francis Allston Leigh, Sir Joseph Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cremer, William Randal Leng, Sir John Soares, Ernest J.
Delany, William Lough, Thomas Sullivan, Donal
Doogan, P. C. Lundon, W. Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Duncan, J. Hastings MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Dunn, Sir William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Fenwick, Charles M'Govern, T. Tomkinson, James
Flynn, James Christopher M'Kean, John Ure, Alexander
Foster, Sir William (DerbyCo.) M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Weir, James Galloway
Goddard, Daniel Ford Markham, Arthur Basil Whiteley, George (York. W. R.
Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Harms worth, R. Leicester Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Harrington, Timothy O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Young, Samuel
Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Helme, Norval Watson O'Mara, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Mr. Caldwell and Mr.
Jameson, Major J. Eustace Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) George Brown.
Jones, Dav. Brynmor (Swansea Power, Patrick Joseph
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Bignold, Arthur Cubitt, Hon. Henry
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Bigwood, James Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bill, Charles Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Blundell, Colonel Henry Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Arkwright, John Stanhope Brotherton, Edward Allen Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Arrol, Sir William Bull, William James Finch, George H.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bullard, Sir Harry Fisher, William Hayes
Bain, Col. James Robert Butcher, John George FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Baird, John George Alexander Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Balfour Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Flower, Ernest
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Chapman, Edward Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Charrington, Spencer Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Banbury, Frederick George Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgiu&Nairn
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Majendie, James A. H. Rutherford, John
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Milvain, Thomas Sadler, Col Samuel Alexander
Heaton, John Henniker More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Henderson, Sir Alexander Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Higginbottom, S. W. Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Smith HC (North'mb. Tyneside
Hogg, Lindsay Mount, William Arthur Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hope, J. K. (Sheffield, Brigh side Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart
Hornby, Sir William Henry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Houston, Robert Paterson Nicol, Donald Ninian Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Thornton, Percy M.
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Pemberton, John S. G. Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pilking on, Lt.-Col. Richard Tritton, Charles Ernest
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Plummer, Walter R. Valentia, Viscount
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Purvis, Robert Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lawson, John Grant Pym, C. Guy Wentworth. Bruce C. Vernon-
Lewson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Randles, John S. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund, Lyne
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Reid, James (Greenock) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Remnant, James Farquharson Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Renshaw, Charles Bine Wylie, Alexander
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Richards, Henry Charles Wynoham, Rt. Hon. George
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Macartney, Rt Hn W G Ellison Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Macdona, John Cumming Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Maclver, David (Liverpool) Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Sir William Walrond and
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Ropner, Colonel Robert Mr. Anstruther.
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Russell, T. W.

Original question again proposed.


said he wished to direct attention to the condition of the Highland schools. When he brought the question forward on a previous occasion, it was treated in a very cavalier fashion by the Lord Advocate. He was glad to observe that under the new Code the local contribution had been reduced to one-eighth. He could not understand why the Secretary for Scotland could not see his way to remove even the one-eighth as far as the Highland schools were concerned. The Highland districts were too poor to pay it. If the right hon. Gentleman would visit the island of Lewis and the outer Hebrides, he would realise the miserable condition of the people, and that they were too poor to provide even a contribution of one eighth. When the matter was last before the Committee, he suggested that the Lord Advocate should consult with the Secretary for Scotland and the Department on the subject, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would now be in a position to tell the Committee that it had been satisfactory settled, and that the one-eighth contribution had been knocked off in the Highland crofting counties. He also wished to impress on the right hon. Gentleman the necessity for continuing evening continuation schools, and the great advantage conferred by them. In one, of the Western districts of Ross-shire, a schoolmaster informed him that thirty young men attended the classes during the winter, so anxious were they to obtain knowledge. The right hon. Gentleman two or three years ago brought in a Bill, with the object of providing better educational facilities in the congested districts of the Highlands, but because a few Members placed a "block" on the Paper the measure was dropped. Surely the Government with its enormous majority could have swept the "block" out of the way. These children had special claims to consideration. They had no chance of getting on in the world unless they were given a fairly good education. If that education was forthcoming, much less would be heard about congested districts and crofters' difficulties. He also desired to call attention to the Report by Mr. Walker, the Chief Inspector of the North of Scotland, in which complaint was made of, the unsatisfactory ventilation, imperfect heating of schools, want of shelters for the children, and the insanitary state of many of the school offices. According to the right hon. Gentleman, that Report had been ignored.


denied that he said the Report was ignored. On the contrary, he said that every Report of that kind received the consideration of the Board of Education.


said that at any rate the right hon. Gentleman treated the matter in a very airy fashion, and referred to the ventilation of the House of Commons. What had that to do with the Highland schools? The right hon. Gentleman had failed to realise the seriousness of these matters, and in the hope of obtaining some more satisfactory information he moved to reduce the Vote by £200.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £707,512, be granted for the said Service."— (Mr. Weir.)


said the hon. Member had raised exactly the same points on a former occasion. He complained that under the Continuation Code the Highland schools had not been exempted from all local contributions. When the matter was previously discussed

it was explained to the hon. Member that an exception had been made in their favour, in that their local contribution was reduced to one-eighth, whereas, in other parts it was one-fourth. It was the view of the Education Department that it would not be wise to exempt them entirely from local contribution. That was a point of settled policy, with regard to which the hon. Member moved a reduction of the Vote, and it really seemed to be an abuse of the forms of the House that he should again move a reduction on the same point on the ground that the Board of Education had had a fortnight in which to consider his complaint. With regard to the matter of ventilation and so on, he entirely denied having treated it in a spirit of levity. Every one of these Reports received the most careful consideration of the Department, and were not in any way ignored.


again rose to speak.


rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(10.33.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 293.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Knowles, Lees
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finch, George H. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool
Arrol, Sir William Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawson, John Grant
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fisher, William Hayes Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Bain, Colonel James Robert FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Baird, John George Alexander Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Flower, Ernest Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Gibbs, Hn A. G. H (City of Lond. Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Frederick George Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Macdona, John Cumming
Bigwood, James Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry Maclver, David (Liverpool)
Bill, (Charles Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Heaton, John Henniker M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Henderson, Sir Alexander Majendie, James A. H.
Bullard, Sir Harry Higginbottom, S. W. Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Milvain, Thomas
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wdre'r Hogg, Lindsay Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)
Chapman, Edward Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Morgan, David J (Walthamstow
Charrington, Spencer Hornby, Sir William Henry Morgan, Hn. Fred.(Monm'thsh.
Coghill, Douglas Harry Houston, Robert Paterson Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Howard, John (K'nt, Faversham Mount, William Arthur
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Nicol, Donald Ninian Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward
Pemberton, John S. G. Ropner, Colonel Robert Valentia, Viscount
Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Royds, Clement Molyneux Warde, Colonel C. E.
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Russell, T. W. Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Plummer, Walter R. Rutherford, John Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Purvis, Robert Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Pym, C. Guy Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Randles, John S. Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Wylie, Alexander
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George
Reid, James (Greenock) Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Remnant, James Farquharson Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Renshaw, Charles Bine Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Renwick, George Stone, Sir Benjamin Sir William Walrond and
Richards, Henry Charles Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Mr. Anstruther.
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Thornton, Percy M.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E Jameson, Major J. Eustace Power, Patrick Joseph
Boland, John Jones, David Brvnm'r (Swansea Rea, Russell
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones, William (Caroarvonshire Reddy, M.
Brigg, John Jordan, Jeremiah Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Joyce, Michael Rickett, J. Compton
Burke, E. Haviland- Kennedy, Patrick James Rigg, Richard
Caldwell, James Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Layland-Barratt, Francis Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Causton, Richard Knight Leigh, Sir Joseph Runciman, Walter
Channing, Francis Allston Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cremer, William Randal Lundon, W. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Delany, William MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Doogan, P. C. MacVeagh, Jeretmiah Soares, Ernest J.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Govern, T. Sullivan, Donal
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) M'Kean, John Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Flynn, James Christopher M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower
Goddard, Daniel Ford Moss, Samuel Tomkinson, James
Griffith, Ellis J. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.
Harrington, Timothy O'Brien, P. J. (Pipperary, N.)
Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Mara, James Mr. Weir and Mr.
Helme, Norval Watson O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Harmsworth.
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

(10.43.) Question put accordingly, "That a sum, not exceeding £707,512, be granted for the said service."

The committee dividend:—Ayes, 71; Noes, 135. (Division List No 294.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Griffith, Ellis J. M'Govern, T.
Boland, John Harrington, Timothy M'Kean, John
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hayden, John Patrick M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Brigg, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Markham, Arthur Basil
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Helme, Norval Wason Moss, Samuel
Burke, E. Haviland- Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Caldwell, James Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Jones, William (Carnarvonshre O"Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Causton, Richard Knight Jordan, Jeremiah O'Mara, James
Channing, Francis Allston Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cremer, William Randal Kennedy, Patrick James Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Delany, William Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Power, Patrick Joseph
Doogan, P. C. Layland-Barratt, Francis Rea, Russell
Dunn, Sir William Leigh, Sir Joseph Reddy, M.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Leng, Sir John Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Lough, Thomas Rickett, J. Compton
Flynn, James Christopher Lundon, W. Rigg, Richard
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Goddard, Daniel Ford MacVeagh, Jeremiah Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Runciman, Walter Sullivan, Donal Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Thomas, J A (Glam'rgan, Gower TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Tomkinson, James Mr. Weir and Mr. Harms-
Soares, Ernest J. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) worth.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. Hay, Hon. Claude George Purvis, Robert
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Heaton, John Henniker Randles, John S.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Henderson, Sir Alexander Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Archclale, Edward Mervyn Higginbottom, S. W. Ratcliff, R. F.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.) Reid, James (Greenock)
Arrol, Sir William Hogg, Lindsay Remnant, James Farquharson
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside Renshaw, Charles Bine
Bain, Col. James Robert Hornby, Sir William Henry Renwick, George
Baird, John George Alexander Houston, Robert Paterson Richards, Henry Charles
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch's Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Banbury, Frederick George Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Knowles, Lees Ropner, Colonel Robert
Bignold, Arthur Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Bigwood, James Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Russell, T. W.
Bill, Charles Lawson, John Grant Rutherford, John
Blundell, Colonel Henry Leve-on-Gower, Frederick N.S. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Llewellyn, Evan Henry Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Brotherton, Edward Allen Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Bullard, Sir Harry Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Loyd, Archie Kirkman Seely, Maj. J.E.B (Isle of Wight
Chapman, Edward Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Stewart, Sir Mark J.M 'Taggart
Coghill, Douglas Harry Macdona, John Cumming Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready MacIver, David (Liverpool) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cranborne, Viscount M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Thornton, Percy M.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Majendie, James A. H. Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfries-sh. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milvain, Thomas Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Valentia, Viscount
Finch, George H. More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morgan, David J. (Walth'mso'w Webb, Col. William George
Fisher, William Hayes Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Mount, William Arthur Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Flower, Ernest Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Galloway, William Johnson Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wylie, Alexander
Gibbs. Hn. A G H (City of Lond. Nicol, Donald Ninian Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Pemberton, John S. G.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sir William Walrond and
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry Plummer, Walter R. Mr. Anstruther.
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pretyman, Ernest George

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY claimed, That the original Question be now put."

(10.54.) Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding" £707,712, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending

on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a grant in aid."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 141; Noes, 66. (Division List No. 295.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bain, Colonel James Robert Banbury, Frederick George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Baird, John George Alexander Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks
Arkwright, John Stanhope Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bignold. Arthur
Bigwood, James Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Renshaw, Charles Bine
Bill, Charles Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Renwick, George
Blundell, Colonel Henry Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Richards, Henry Charles
Brodrick Rt. Hon St. John Knowles, Lees Rigg, Richard
Brotherton, Edward Allen Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Bullard, Sir Harry Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Caldwell, James Lawson, John Grant Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (W'rc'r Llewellyn, Evan Henry Ropner, Colonel Robert
Chapman Edward Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Royds, Clement Molyneux
Charrington, Spencer Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Russell, T. W.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rutherford John
Coghill, Douglas Harry Loyd, Archie Kirkman Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Colomb, Sir John Charle Ready Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cranborne, Lord Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Macdona, John Cunnning Scott, Sir S (Marylebone, W.)
Douglas Rt. Hn. A. Akers Maclver, David (Liverpool) Seel, Charles Hilton (Lincoln
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (L of Wight)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Spear, John Ward
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Majendie, James A. H. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Finch, George H. Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvain, Thomas Steward, Sir Mark J.M 'Taggart
Fisher, William Hayes Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Stone, Sir Benjamin
Flower, Ernest Morgan, David J. (W'thamst'w Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Galloway, William Johnson Morgan, Hn. Fred. (M'nm'thsh. Thornton, Percy M.
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon. Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Moss, Samuel Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Mount, William Arthur Tuke, Sir John Batty
Gorst, Right Hn. Sir John Eldon Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Valentia, Viscount
Gunter, Sir Robert Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Warde, Col. C. E.
Hamilton, Rt Hn LdG. (Midd'x. Nicol, Donald Ninian Webb, Colonel William George
Hamilton Marq. of L'nd'nderry Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pemberton, John S. G. Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Hay, Hon. Claude George Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Heaton, John Henniker Platt,-Higgins, Frederick Willox, Sir John Archibald
Henderson, Sir Alexander Plummer, Walter R. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Higginbottom, S. W. Pretyman, Ernest George Wylie, Alexander
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Purvis, Robert Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Hogg, Lindsay Randles, John S.
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Hornby, Sir William Henry Ratcliff, R. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Houston, Robert Paterson Reid, James (Greenock) Sir William Walrond and
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Remnant, James Farquharson Mr. Anstruther.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Boland, John Jameson, Major J. Eustace Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Rea, Russell
Brigg, John Jordan, Jeremiah Reddy, M.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Joyce, Michael Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Burke, E. Haviland- Kennedy, Patrick James Rickett, J. Compton
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Layland-Barratt, Francis Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Causton, Richard Knight Leigh, Sir Joseph Runciman, Walter
Channing, Francis Allston Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Delany, William Lundon, W. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Doogan, P. C. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Scares, Ernest J.
Dunn, Sir William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sullivan, Donal
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Govern, T. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan M'Kean, John Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower
Flynn, James Christopher M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Markham, Arthur Basil Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Griffith, Ellis J. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Harrington, Timothy O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, James Wicklow, W. Mr. Weir and Mr. Harms-
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Mara, James worth.
Helme, Norval Watson O'Shaughnessy, P. J.