HC Deb 15 July 1902 vol 111 cc257-79

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £5,421,862 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Education, and of the various Establishments connected therewith, including sundry Grants in Aid."

(2.40.) DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

said he wished to ask the Vice-President a question with regard to an acute difficulty that had arisen as to the temporary Act, passed last year, known as the Cockerton Judgment Act. That Act provided that the municipalities should give their sanction to the evening continuation school work of the School Boards, which had been declared illegal by the Cockerton judgment, down to 31st July of this year only; and, as the Education Bill would not be passed until the autumn session, the evening continuation schools would have to come to an end on that day unless some way out of the difficulty was found. The situation was a very critical one, and he wanted to know if it was not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to find some way out of the difficulty. The Vice-President stated, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for North West Ham on the subject, that the municipalities might rely upon the assurance of the Government that they would not be surcharged if they carried on the evening continuation schools after 31st July. That was a somewhat clumsy, and certainly not a legal, way of dealing with the difficulty, and, notwithstanding the assurance thus given, it was quite possible that many municipalities would be chary to undertake this expenditure of money without legal sanction. He suggested, as a way out of the difficulty, the extension of the operation of the Cockerton Act for another year. It would surely be quite possible, with the consent of hon. Members on both sides, to allow such a Bill to go through without discussion, and he was sure hon. Members were equally, with himself, anxious that the excellent educational work now being done should not be brought to a standstill.


hoped the Vice-President of the Council would be able to give a favourable and explicit reply to the question of the hon. Member for North Camberwell. The municipalities wished to carry on the evening continuation schools, as the work seemed to them to be of great advantage. It was clear that the Education Bill debates would not be finished in time to enable this point to be dealt with in the measure, and if all parties, recognising the value of the work, would agree to the maintenance of the status quo there ought to be no difficulty in making the suggested arrangement. Could the Bill not be included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill? He was confident it was the general wish of the municipalities that they should be authorised to continue the work, the value of which was greatly appreciated.

MR. ALFRED HUTTON (Yorkshire, W.R., Morley)

, whose voice was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to urge the necessity of preventing the work of the evening continuation schools being brought to a standstill. He thought that if an agreement could be come to it might also be possible in the same Bill to clear up some doubts which had arisen as to the transference of schools.

MAJOR RASCH (Essex, Chelmsford)

called attention to the grievance of teachers with reference to the insecurity of their tenure. Teachers were liable to be dismissed without any cause whatever. They were subject to the caprice of managers. They were a very hard-working body of men, and they felt this grievance most acutely. No class of civil servants in the country were so badly treated or had so insecure a footing. Even Members of Parliament knew two years beforehand what their fate was likely to be. Seeing that the House was going to sit till Christmas over the Education Bill, he suggested to the Vice-President that he should formulate a Clause dealing with the matter to be brought before the House on the Education Bill.


The hon. and gallant Member is not entitled to discuss in Committee of Supply a matter which he admits requires legislation.


Then I hope the right hon. Gentleman will bring in a Bill.


Order, order! The hon. Member has only made his position worse.


Then may I say that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give a categorical answer on this Question?

SIR JOSEPH LEESE (Lancashire, Accrington)

said he wished to associate himself with the appeal of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. He had several times asked questions of the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, and received very favourable answers. It was clear they had his sympathy with their efforts to find for the teachers who were wrongfully dismissed some means of redress, but they had been told also by the right hon. Gentleman that the remedy was in their own hands. If that were so, could he not find a place for a Clause dealing with it in the Education Bill? Let him give his sympathy a practical turn and help them in carrying such a Clause.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

confessed that he could see no solution of the Cockerton difficulty except the introduction of a short Bill by the Government to continue the Act passed last year. There might be a Bill merely extending the period of the Act, or a Bill going a little further and giving power to authorities to sanction the extension of the work. He thought the latter would be the easier one to get through the House. He feared that if a mere Continuation Bill were introduced some Members would feel it their duty to enter a protest.


Order, order! The hon. Member is entirely spoiling his case by discussing legislation.


said this was a question closely connected with the administration of the Board of Education and surely they were entitled to discuss it on the Vote for the right hon Gentleman's salary. A serious state of things was likely to arise in the country and he was pointing out to the right hon. Gentleman that hon. Members on his side would be far more ready to let a proposal go through without opposition if it included powers—


The hon. Member is again discussing legislation, and that is not in order in Committee of Supply. We can only discuss matters of administration.


said that under the circumstances he would merely press on the right hon. Gentleman the fact that there was danger of this evening school work being brought to a complete standstill for a second year. He was sure the House would gladly help the right hon. Gentleman in any efforts to remove the difficulty.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

asked when the proposals of the Prime Minister with regard to day training colleges would be put into operation. He did not suppose that in the first year a sum of more than £7,000 would be required, and the sooner they got the proposals into operation the better, because the university colleges might be making arrangements for the reception of students.

MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)

asked the Vice President whether he could not see his way to meet the Cockerton difficulty administratively. He suggested that the Local Government Board might issue a circular to School Boards, undertaking not to surcharge them for a specified period with the cost of carrying on evening classes and other work now declared to be illegal.


said that after the ruling of the Chairman as to the, discussion of legislative proposals he was in some difficulty with a reply to the hon. Member for North Camberwell, but, perhaps he might be allowed to say that the difficulty in connection with the Cockerton Act had been present to the Board of Education for many months past, and they were quite alive to it. It was quite evident that the matter could not be put right administratively, as the Board had no power to enable people to spend money which they could not spend legally; and with regard to the suggestion that his right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board should issue a circular inviting the School Boards to break the law, and assuring them that they would not be surcharged, he should think it was highly improbable that it would be carried out. He was afraid that this was a matter which could only be cured by legislation; and he would merely say that the suggestion of the hon. Member for Camberwell seemed to him an eminently practical one, and if it could be carried out it would be effective for the purpose. But it was evident that some hon. Members were extremely anxious to introduce Amendments into the law, and if fresh Amendments were to be introduced, it was quite impossible to pass a Bill at this period of the Session. All that the Government could do had been done. A question was put to him by his hon. friend the Member for North-West Ham, and he not only answered the question, but, on behalf of the Government— they were not his own words, but words the Government desired him to use—he gave the assurance to the School Boards which the hon. Member for North Camberwell had read. Further than that he did not see how the Government could possibly go. He was certainly not authorised to say anything more. That was all the Government could do without legislation. They could only give that assurance. Not only was that assurance given by him to the House, but a circular was addressed to every School Board carrying on evening schools directing their attention to it. He could only say that the Government were quite alive to the difficulty, and they recognised the suggestion of the hon. Member for North Camberwell as an eminently practical one which they would be glad to carry out. Everything that could be done by the Government should be done. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs as to the Prime Minister's proposals with reference to day training colleges, they would be placed in the form of a minute before the House of Commons as soon as the Education Bill was disposed of by the House. As to the other point that had been raised, be could only repeat that the subject of teachers' tenure was germane to the Bill before the House, and would evidently be raised in the course of the debates on that Bill. He quite admitted that it was desirable that some measure should be resorted to by Parliament to prevent teachers being dismissed, without cause, in a summary manner.

(3.0.) MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley)

said he thought they were in a great difficulty at the present time; and he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be possible to meet it, by altering the conditions of the higher elementary schools, which were affected by the Cockerton judgment. Those schools had not been successful, owing to the difficult conditions under which they were placed; and the reason he was pressing the point now was that he, saw the difficulty they would be landed in in endeavouring to pass from elementary to secondary work in the future. Some better method of co-ordination than that which now existed would be required. He wished to ask whether some modification was not possible without legislation which would make the higher elementary schools more acceptable generally. An assurance to that effect would be a great help in carrying out the work of secondary education in the country.


said no doubt there had been irregularities in the debate; but he trusted he should not fall into any himself. The Vice-President referred to the First Lord of the Treasury as the Prime Minister, an office entirely unknown to the British Constitution. The First Lord of the Treasury was engaged in forming a Ministry; he trusted the Vice-President would form part of it. If not, the right hon. Gentleman would probably be unable to introduce the Bill he had referred to. He wished to call attention to a matter strictly within this Estimate. The Vote amounted to very nearly £10,000,000, and consisted largely of grants to various schools based on registration. The Comptroller and Auditor General had, however, reported that the records of the registration were incorrect; and as the matter affected no less than £8,500,000 out of £10,000,000, he would read an extract from the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General— A test examination by officers of my Department having brought to light numerous instances of incorrect registration and of consequent overpayment, I enquired whether the Board would itself institute a, complete audit of the Grants for the year. The point of the Report was as follows— In reply to a communication from my Department calling attention to the faulty certificate, it is stated that 'The Board have usually relied on the particulars and certificates given by the Managers and teachers on Form 65 as a prevention of such duplication of payment as has here occurred.' While this statement has reference merely to the certificates on Form 65, it offers a convenient opportunity for calling attention to the fact that the large Grants payable not only under this Sub-head but also under Sub-heads C2, C4, C6 and C7, are based upon figures certified by the Managers and that therefore the trustworthiness of such certificates becomes a question of much importance. He wished to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that Sub-heads C2, C4, C6, and C7 amounted altogether to £8,493,251, every half-penny of which was brought into doubt by the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Every item depended on the certificates of the registration of attendance furnished by the managers; and as doubt had been cast on them, it behoved the Committee to ask for some assurance that these certificates would in future be really accurate and would represent the facts. In one item of £200,000 an error of about £6,000 had been discovered, of which amount £4,200 was actually admitted. It was absolutely important, nay, essential, that the figures on which the grants were based should be accurate. When an error, such as he had mentioned, had been discovered, doubt was cast on the entire Vote; and in view of the enormous sums now granted for educational purposes and the greater demands of the future, it behoved the Committee to ask why the Education Department had not, long since, taken steps to ascertain the correctness of the figures on which it based its grants. He did not know what answer his right hon. friend would make; but if it were not satisfactory as regarded the past, he hoped his right hon. friend would be able to give the Committee an assurance as to the future; and that there would be a careful audit of selected items, in order that the Committee might know that the grants were not inaccurate or falsified—of course he did not mean falsified purposely.

*MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)

said that the hon. Gentleman opposite was making a mountain out of a mole hill, when ho suggested that the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General cast doubt on every item in the Vote. As regarded science and art classes, and schools, the irregularities occurred in precisely the class of school which, owing to the administration of the right hon. Gentleman, could not be curried on by a School Board. In the right hon. Gentleman's process of running amuck at School Boards in his administration, he had forbidden the School Boards to become Committees for science and art schools and classes, although any congeries of private persons could constitute themselves a science and art Committee. If there was careless supervision the Committee could not wonder at irregularities occurring. With regard to registration, he would point out that there wore some 40,000,000 of entries every week as to the attendance and non-attendance of scholars; and the hon. Gentleman would see that it would be perfectly impossible for the Board of Education to audit such a number of entries. Ordinarily the managers of the schools were responsible for the accuracy of the entries—the large School Boards employed officers for that purpose; the inspectors and sub-inspectors of schools were also responsible, and if any doubt arose the Board of Education had the power to order an audit.


asked if the Board of Education had an expert to conduct such an audit.


said that the Board had power to appoint Inspectors of Returns, but it had not been frequently exercised. Having in view the immense number of registrations, a complete audit would be out of the question; and, as far as he knew, the existing safeguards were quite satisfactory. Since the House sat a very strong case had been made out for some check upon the managers of schools. There was the instance of a school mistress dismissed by a manager without good cause within a few months of the time when she could have claimed her superannuation allowance, at the age of sixty-four, when she was not likely to obtain another engagement, a mistress whose work had been commented upon by the inspector in a creditable manner. The result was that she was deprived of her employment and of any chance of the retiring allowance for that period to which she would have been entitled. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to amplify the statement he had already made today with regard to this matter. They might legislate for education and produce excellent schools, but if they had in those school teachers suffering from a sense of great injustice; if they were under the continual apprehension of some capricious action being taken against them which would deprive them of their means of livelihood, the country would not get from those teachers their best work, and education must suffer. It was not a question of the teachers alone. It was also a question of efficiency, and applied alike to the elementary and secondary schools. There was a general consensus of opinion among all teachers upon this point, it being equally strong among the secondary school teachers as among the elementary school teachers, and ho hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to say something which would allay the fears of all these teachers.


hoped that the Committee would agree to take the Vote without prolonged discussion, having regard to the amount of Parliamentary time occupied with educational matters. In reference to what had been said by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, the difficulty of obtaining correct returns of attendance was ever present with the Board in its dealings with 20,000 schools. Rules, regulations, inspections, and all kinds of measures had been taken to secure as much accuracy as possible. This matter was under the most serious attention of the Department. A report from the Auditor General always demanded such serious attention and consideration for improvement in the system. The new Bill would give an opportunity for this. Returns would be less numerous, and, vouched for by municipal and county authorities, would be more reliable than those furnished by irresponsible, and often careless, school managers. He therefore hoped that a better system for ascertaining attendance, on which the finance of the Department depended, would be carried out. He had often spoken on the subject of teachers' tenure of office, and, no doubt, would have to make many more speeches on that subject during the passage of the Bill now before the House. He really did not think he would be justified in inflicting another oration on the Committee, his opinions being well known and having been frequently expressed.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

hoped the Department would take the greatest care in drawing up the new minute in reference to the training of teachers, a subject which had received new importance from the regulation in regard to registration. He hoped the Department would pursue a liberal policy, and not confine grants to hostels intended entirely for teachers. A case was brought to his attention recently of a class of young pupil teachers, who were being sent to the Oxford and Cambridge settlements, in the East End of London, a system which had produced excellent results. That was a movement which was now going on which might possibly be encouraged by the Education Department. From the point of view of general culture, it would be well to bring teachers into contact with other young men receiving a wider professional training. He congratulated the Vice-President on the better organisation of science and art instruction in higher schools.

MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

expressed his desire to associate himself with what had been said as to the form of the new Minute dealing with the grants to be made to residential training colleges under the new Education Bill. He also wanted to emphasise in one word the necessity of giving more attention to securing reasonable tenure of office to the teachers of elementary schools. Having been brought into very close contact with the teachers throughout the county which he represented, he found there was practical unanimity amongst them in this matter. On this point all were agreed, and it was not often with regard to educational matters that unanimity could be found. The supreme consideration was so to arrange matters as to draw into the teaching profession the men best adapted for the, work. So long as the sense of insecurity prevailed among this class of public servants, the best work would not be obtained, and the educational interests of the country would suffer. Personally, he regarded the speech of the Vice-President as full of sympathy on the particular question under discussion, and if only sufficient pressure were brought to bear on the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, he believed that at no distant date some satisfactory arrangement would be arrived at. He hoped that before the Vote came up for discussion next year steps would be taken to remedy this evil, so that the teaching profession of the country would be able to go forward with their great public task without any of that fear which now arose from their insecure position.


was understood to express his agreement with the remarks of the hon. Member for East Somersetshire. A suggestion had been made as to the possibility of training colleges for teachers being so far arranged that they might afford the education required for secondary purposes in almost every district. As pupil teacher centres ought to be within reasonable distance of the centres where they were likely to find students, they would consequently be within reasonable distance of those who desired secondary education. He would suggest to the Vice President that under the arrangements which were to be made for the purpose of training teachers this point should not be lost sight of. He thought that the training of teachers and the provision of facilities for secondary education might very well go together.

(3.35.) MR. EMMOTT (Oldham)

desired to emphasise the point raised by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire as to the curriculum of science and aft schools. The curriculum imposed by South Kensington in the past had been too purely scientific. The number of hours devoted to science was about thirteen out of twenty-five, whereas in the realschulen in Germany, out of a week of twenty-nine or thirty hours the amount of time given to science was no greater. In the re-organisation of secondary education, what above all else was wanted, was to turn out men, not machines, and that object would not be secured unless due weight was given to humanistic as opposed to scientific teaching. He hoped that in this matter the Board of Education would be more liberal in its ideas than the Department at South Kensington had been.

*MR. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)

called attention to what he considered was the inadequate support given by the Government to evening continuation schools. In reply to representations from the Lancashire County Council by a Deputation of which he was a member, the Vice President last year promised to look into the matter, and, if necessary, to make increased provision. The fears then expressed as to the insufficiency of the grant under the altered Minute of July 3rd, 1901, had been borne out by the facts. In the case of certain evening continuation schools, the balance sheets of which he held, conducted in the rural districts, in connection with the Lonsdale Division of the county, it appeared that, although the grants paid by the Board were the highest that could be earned, £26 3s. 6d., they were 37 percent, less than would have been received under the old scale which would have amounted to £40 12s. In country districts especially, there was great need to encourage local Committees to deal with this matter, but if there was to be a risk of pecuniary loss, the damage to the cause of education would be considerable. Everything possible should be done to develop this important section of educational work. Complaint was often made that the children from the elementary schools passed into the world, and lost the smattering of knowledge they had acquired, and were thereby rendered incapable of availing themselves of the opportunities for better employment which frequently came to them in later life. In consequence, the evening continuation school code had been developed to provide for the teaching of children of older growth and even of adults, and he thought the arrangements for developing that phase of the work should be as generous as possible. The action of the Government in maintaining the severance of this work from the Department of elementary education was not to be commended. In large centres of population the day schoolmasters had frequently been willing to forego the opportunity of relaxation in the evenings in order to take charge of, and by their self-denying effort (which demanded recognition) support these schools, and so attract and keep in touch with the children who had previously come under their care. Such an arangement had been found to be most advantageous, because of the personal knowledge which these masters had of the children who had passed through the day schools. The evening schools ought to be fostered, and the Committee, should see to it that financial consideration did not tend to check the development of the work. In fairness to the Department it should be said that under the increased arrangements for the present year the loss on the grant would not be quite so large, but the amount that could be earned was only £30 10s. 9d. for the same work, and this was quite inadequate, and he hoped the Vice President would carefully consider the matter.


desired to bring before the Committee two matters of economy in staffing. The first was one to which he called attention last year, viz., an item of £800 as salary to a senior examiner who did no examining. This gentleman also received a salary of,£350 a year as Secretary to the Duke of Devonshire, and his whole time was taken up by his secretarial duties. The Votes ought to represent payments for services rendered, and the salaries should correspond to work done. This particular item did not carry out that principle, and therefore he should move to reduce the Vote by £800. The other case was that of a second examiner who drew £150 a year as Private Secretary to the Vice President himself. Did this gentleman do any examining?


No, but both examiners do a very large amount of office work. Both of them had been employed, in the preparation of the Education Bill now before Parliament, very long hours indeed, and far beyond office hours. They do not do any examining at all. They do office work, correspondence, and preparation of Returns. Why they were called examiners he did not know, because they did not examine.


asked if he was to understand that those who were called examiners under secondary education also did no examining.




Then they paid these salaries as examiners because they did not examine. He desired that this matter should be made as plain as possible. He felt certain that last year the Vice President of the Council said that this gentleman devoted his whole time to his duties as private secretary to the Lord President, and that was why his salary ought to appear in one sum as a salary and not under the Education Vote. Last year the Vice President of the Council made a most amusing speech in defence of the great amount of work which these examiners had to do, and he thought he was justified in claiming that these salaries ought not to appear on the Education Vote at all. His second point was in regard to the architect employed by the Board of Education. This official received a salary of £850 a year, fees £100, £150 a year as architect to the Scotch Education Office, and £105 and fees under Item A, Class III.. as architect to the reformatories and industrial schools. Was it a fact that this architect was allowed to engage in private practice as well?


That is so.


, said he should also like to know if this architect was allowed to do private consultative work with regard to the plans which had to be approved by the Department afterwards.


I believe that is so.


thought that was a very unsatisfactory system. He thought the architect to the Education Department ought not to engage in private practice to the detriment of other architects. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to assure him that such a state of things would not be allowed to continue, and he begged to move the reduction of this item by £200.

Motion made and Question proposed "That Item A (Salaries, Wages, and Allowances) be reduced by £200."—(Mr. Whitley.)


said that these matters had been brought up for several years and had become hardy annuals. With regard to the private secretary to the Lord President his services were absolutely necessary, because it was impossible for the Minister for Education to know all the minute details of the Department, and he must keep an expert to advise him. The gentleman who had been referred to as the secretary to the Duke of Devonshire was his own private secretary at one time, and he proved so useful in that capacity that he had now been made a senior examiner at a salary of £650 a year and not £800. No one who knew the amount of work these two gentlemen did would make such a suggestion as had been made. With regard to one of them, he could assure the House that since the Education Bill first began to be talked about a year ago, this gentleman had done an amount of work far beyond what they would dream of exacting from any public servant. This gentleman had not only been most active in the preparation of the Bill and meeting the various objections which had been raised, but ho had superintended the production of an enormous number of Returns and statistics, maps, diagrams, and various other things to assist the Department and also to supply the First Lord of the Treasury and the Cabinet with information which it was necessary they should have for this extremely complicated Bill. He hoped the hon. Member would not reward the great public services of these two Gentlemen by moving this reduction, for the services of one of them had been recognised by the King. With regard to the architect, he was in existence before he came to the Education Department. He admitted that he did not think the arrangements as regarded this architect were satisfactory, and when there was a vacancy he did not think his successor would be appointed on the same terms. With regard to his services in the Scotch Education Office as architect, he had nothing to do with that, and the services he rendered with reference to the reformatories carne under the control of the Home Office. He could assure the hon. Member that the architect was a gentleman of tin: highest honour, and he had taken care that no plan upon which he had acted privately should be passed by him, for anything in which he had been personally interested was handed over to the other officials. He admitted that the position was not satisfactory, and it would not be repeated in the case of a future holder of the office. He thought it would be a misfortune if any Vote in Committee of Supply were to interefere with their continuing an arrangement which had served the country in a very admirable manner.

(4.0.) MR. WHITLEY

said he accepted the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to private secretaries, and he would not press that matter further. The reply with regard to the position of the architect was eminently unsatisfactory. There would be no reform whatever so long as they went on the doctrine because a thing is, therefore it shall be. He did not care how eminent a particular form was. It was a rotten system to allow one office to be responsible for something which had to be passed by an official of that same office. He did not for a moment suggest that this architect would think of passing plans which he himself had prepared, but the system which enabled him to adjudicate on plans which had been prepared by his clerks or assistants was one which should not be permitted to continue.


called attention to an item of £100 in the accounts as "fees for architect." There was no explanation whatever of that sum. As far as one could see it might as well have been £500 or £1,000.


asked the Vice-President of the Council what the Education Department proposed to do in regard to building rules in future. Until recently there was a schedule of rules in the day school code, but that had been abolished, and only a vague article was found in regard to new buildings.


said that new building rules were about to be issued. They were now undergoing revision with the view of making them very much more simple. The last time he inquired he was told that they would be ready in about a fortnight. That was a fortnight ago. He fully expected that they would have been issued by this time.


There is no intention to relax the severity of the rules?


They will be relaxed in this sense that they will be less particular and complicated. They will leave a great deal more to the discretion of the local authority in regard to the buildings.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

said there was an amount of not unnatural anxiety in regard to this question. The rules in the past had been one of the reasons for the enormous improvement of school buildings in the country, and any relaxation in regard to vital particulars would be a serious thing. It would not be in order to discuss the Education Bill at present, but perhaps he would be allowed to say that there were to be certain powers given to the new authority under Section 9 in regard to the provision of new schools, and if the building rules were in any way relaxed the working of that Clause would be quite different from what it would be otherwise.

MR. GODDARD (Ipswich)

said he understood that men were entered in high position in the service of the Education Department without passing through a civil service examination. In that way serious injustice was done to the ordinary clerks, in as much as it prevented promotion. It was very unjust that these men should be put over their heads in this way. He understood that they passed in without any examination whatever. That was a matter which required to be cleared up. In the Public Accounts Committee he asked an official in regard to the architect. He was told that according to the architect's agreement with the Department he should not be allowed to adjudicate on any plans that he had himself prepared or in regard to which he had given advice. He thought at the time that that was a satisfactory answer, but he understood now that if he did not personally do it some of his subordinates did it.


Somebody has to adjudicate on the plans. I did not know there was an agreement; but I know what the practice is. The practice is that the architect does not adjudicate on any plan in regard to which he has been personally consulted.


said that seemed to be very unsatisfactory. If a man immediately under the control of the architect adjudicated on the plans he really thought there ought to be an alteration.


said the examiners in future would be appointed from the junior inspectors. That was the intention which was in the mind of the Government at present. There was an enormous variety of schools to inspect, and in making new appointments, those best suited for the particular class of schools would be chosen. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that though not appointed by competitive examination, they were men who had taken good degrees at the

universities or university colleges. They wore men who in every way had shown their general competence. They must also have had considerable experience in teaching in schools of various kinds.


reminded the right hon. Gentleman that he had not answered the question about the fees of the architect.


gave an answer which was inaudible in the gallery.


He gets £850 for doing the work, and then he gets £100 besides.

MR. SOARES (Devonshire, Barnstaple)

said it was no answer whatever to say that the architect was an honourable gentleman. He ought not to be put in such a position that his private interest and his public duty might conflict with each other. That was a broad principle for which they had been contending on the Opposition side of the House from time to time. There should not be the faintest suspicion attached to those engaged in the public service.

(4.13.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 123; Noes, 177. (Division List No. 291.)

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead Esmonde, Sir Thomas MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Ambrose, Robert Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone M'Govern, T.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Fenwick, Charles M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Field, William M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin
Atherley-Jones, L. Flynn, James Christopher Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Boland, John Furness, Sir Christopher Markham, Arthur Basil
Brigg, John Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Mooney, John J.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Goddard, Daniel Ford Moss, Samuel
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Grant, Corrie Nannetti, Joseph P.
Burke, E. Haviland Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.
Burt, Thomas Harrington, Timothy Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Caldwell, James Hayden, John Patrick Nussey, Thomas Willans
Cameron, Robert Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S. Healy, Timothy Michael O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Carew, James Laurence Helme, Norval Watson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.
Causton, Richard Knight Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Channing, Francis Allston Jacoby, James Alfred O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Clancy, John Joseph Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Malley, William
Craig, Robert Hunter Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cremer, William Randal Joyce, Michael Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden
Crombie, John William Kennedy, Patrick James Power, Patrick Joseph
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Labouchere, Henry Priestley, Arthur
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Lambert, George Rea, Russell
Delany, William Langley, Batty Reddy, M.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leamy, Edmund Redmond, William (Clare)
Doogan, P. C. Leng, Sir John Rigg, Richard
Dunn, Sir William Lough, Thomas Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Edwards, Frank Lundon, W. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Emmott, Alfred MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Schwann, Charles E.
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. Wilson John (Durham, Mid.)
Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Toulmin, George Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Trevelvan, Charles Phillips Young, Samuel
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Ure Alexander Yoxall, James Henry
Sullivan, Donal Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Taylor, Theodore Cooke Weir, James Galloway
Tennant, Harold John White, Luke (York, E. R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. Whiteley, George (York. W. R Mr. Whilley and Mr.
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Whit aker, Thomas Palmer Soares.
Thomas F. Freeman-(Hastings Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Goulding, Edward Alfred Plummer, Walter R.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Green, Walford D. (Wed'sbury Purvis, Robert
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Gunter, Sir Robert Randles, John S.
Auson, Sir William Reynell Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midx. Rankin, Sir James
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hare, Thomas Leigh Rasche, Major Frederic Carne
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Harris, Frederick Leverton Reid, James (Greenock)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Baird, John George Alexander Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Renshaw, Charles Bine
Balcarres, Lord. Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Heaton, John Henniker Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Banbury, Frederick George Hickman, Sir Alfred Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Bartley, George C. T. Higginbottom, S. W. Ropner, Colonel Robert
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Round, Rt. Hon. James
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Hogg, Lindsay Royds, Clement Molyneux
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Bri'htside Rutherford, John
Bignold, Arthur Hornby, Sir William Henry Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Bigwood, James Horner, Frederick William Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hoult, Joseph Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsham Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Brassey, Albert Hudson, George Bickersteth Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight
Brotherton, Edward Allen Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Simeon, Sir Barrington
Bull, William James Johnston, Heywood (Sussex) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East
Bullard, Sir Harry Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kimber, Henry Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Knowles, Lees Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Stewart, Sir Mark J.M Taggart
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lawson, John Grant Stone, Sir Benjamin
Coddington, Sir William Leveson-Gower Frederick N. S. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Coghill, Douglas Harry Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Thorburn, Sir Walter
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Loyd, Archie Kirkman Thornton, Percy M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.
Cranborne, Lord Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Macartney, Rt. Hon W G Ellison Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Macdona, John Cumming Tuke, Sir John Batty
Dalrymple, Sir Charles M'Iver, David (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Maconochie, A. W. Warr, Augustus Frederick
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Finch, George H. Middlemore, John Throgmort'n Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvain, Thomas Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.
Fisher, William Hayes Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Mount, William Arthur Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Flaunery, Sir Fortescue Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wylie, Alexander
Forster, Henry William Muntz, Sir Philip A. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Myers, William Henry Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Gordon, Hon. J. E (Elgin & Nairn Parkes, Ebenezer Younger, William
Gore, Hn G. R.C. Ormsby-(Salop Pemberton, John S. G.
Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc. Pierpoint, Robert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Sir William Walrond and
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Platt-Higgins, Frederick Mr. Anstruther.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

2, £78,706, to complete the sum for Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales.

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