HC Deb 04 February 1902 vol 102 cc340-51
(3.15.) MR. DAVID THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil)

said the subject of the Instruction which he was about to propose had been before the House on several previous occasions, and therefore he need not occupy much time in moving it. But there were one or two points to which he would especially like to draw the attention of the Chairman of the Committee of Selection. In 1899 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Watford accepted an Instruction which was moved in his absence by the hon. Member for Canarvon, and which provided that the Committee of Selection should give equal consideration to every Member on the ground of his private profession, business, or avocation. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman was not prepared to accept the present Instruction, although he had considerably modified it, as would be seen on comparing it with the Instruction he moved last year. He wished to assure the House that in bringing it forward he had no intention whatever of fettering in any degree the discretion of the Committee of Selection in appointing Members to sit upon Private Bill Committees. He wanted the House to understand that the object of the Instruction was to do away with any privilege enjoyed by any particular class of Members. When the Committee of Selection was first set up in 1839, there was no kind of privilege suggested for any particular class of Members, and Mr. Thompson, who in 1839 moved the Resolution upon which the present system was founded, distinctly laid it down that whoever might be chosen to act by the Committee of Selection must be prepared to do so, as no man had a right to take upon himself the office of Member of Parliament unless he was ready to discharge all the duties connected with it. But since then there had grown up, without any Instruction from the House, and without anything in the nature of a Standing Order, but by the action of the Selection Committee alone, the practice of exempting a particular class of Members. He wished to make this perfectly clear. Sir John Mowbray, the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Watford, once said, in answer to a Question, that no Member of the House had any right of exemption from service on Public Bill Committees, either by Standing Orders or by Instruction from the House. But it had been the custom of the Committee not to place on such Committees members of the learned profession actually engaged in practice. It was this action of the Committee of Selection against which his instruction was directed. It was authorised by no order of the House, and he believed there was a general feeling in the House against any such exemption, for he maintained that whenever a man took up the office of Member of Parliament he should make the duties of the House his first consideration, and that his private business or avocation should take a secondary place. He went further, and said that not only should there be no exemption from this drudgery in favour of the so-called professions, but that the members of that class were the very last to whom any exemption should be granted, because they made no sacrifice whatever, in coming to the House, such as the ordinary Member had to make. Through no action of their own they secured greater advantages by entering Parliament than any other Member. Again, they were more fitted to act on Private Bill Committees because of their professional experience. They knew the Laws of Evidence in a way which no ordinary lay Member of the House knew them. The ordinary man of business, when he became a Member of Parliament, was often compelled to neglect his business in the provinces and take up his residence in London for the greater part of the year, but as a rule the work of the barrister was done in London, and he, therefore, was called upon to make no sacrifice; while it was to be borne in mind further that the learned profession derived great benefit from the numerous judicial appointments at the disposal of the Government. He would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Watford, why, seeing that he accepted the Instruction moved in 1899, he was unable to agree to the one now being proposed. Further, he would like to be told why, having accepted that Instruction, he had not carried it out. He found, from a Return which had recently been presented, that Members actively engaged in the profession of the law had been called upon to serve on only two or three Committees, and he did not think that they had been given their fair proportion of the work. He begged to move the Instruction standing in his name.

(3.28.) MR. GALLOWAY (Manchester, S. W.)

said that, in seconding the Motion of his hon. friend, he wished the House to clearly understand that neither he nor the proposer had any desire to question the excellent way in which the Committee of Selection had always done their work. He thought the House owed a very deep debt of gratitude to the Committee for the consideration with which they performed what was not always an agreeable task. He seconded the Motion because the work of Committees in the House was shown by the Return to which his hon. friend had alluded to fall on a very few Members. They must remember too, that exemption was not granted to hon. Members who sat upon other than Private Bill Committees. That constituted a great hardship, because it resulted in a much larger amount of work devolving on some Members. The work really should be equally divided among all Members of the House. Incidentally he might remark that probably the hardest worked were the right hon. Gentlemen who sat upon the Front Benches. It was because he thought that equal treatment should be shared out to every Member that he desired to second the Instruction.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That it be an instruction to the Committee that in selecting Members to serve on Committees for the consideration of private Bills exemption shall not be granted to any member on the general ground of the peculiar nature of his private profession, business, or avocation, and all members shall receive equal treatment and consideration, and be called upon to serve."—(Mr. David Thomas.)

*(3.30.) MR. HALSEY (Herts, Watford)

said that although it was perhaps useful occasionally to call the attention of hon. Members to this very important, though, he feared, sometimes rather irksome, part of their duty, he nevertheless ventured to hope that the House would not accede to the Motion of the hon. Member. The hon. Gentleman had referred to the fact that the present Instruction was a modification of the one he moved last year, and he had also asked how it was that, having accepted the Instruction of 1899, the Committee were not prepared to accept the present Motion. He would like to point out to the House that the Instruction of 1899 and the present Instruction were two totally different things. It was perfectly true, as the hon. Member said, that he brought forward an Instruction of a somewhat similar character last year, but he then failed to induce the House to adopt it. It was true too, he had modified it in the present instance, but to his mind the alteration went rather in the direction of making it more stringent than before. In his opinion the addition of the words, "and be called upon to serve" would very seriously hamper the work of the Committee of Selection.

MR. DAVID THOMAS

My remarks referred to the modification I had introduced in the earlier part of the Resolution.

* MR. HALSEY

Unless I am mistaken, the earlier words are practically the same.

MR. DAVID THOMAS

No, no.

* MR HALSEY

said it appeared, to him at any rate, that the sting was to be found in the words added at the end of the Instruction. Last year the hon. Member chastised them with whips; this year he sought to chastise them with scorpions. The hon. Member had called the attention of the House to an answer given by Sir John Mowbray some years ago, in which he said that the practice had grown up in the Committee of Selection of exempting practising barristers, and he complained that after the House had passed a Resolution in 1889 ordering that equal considera- tion should be granted to every Member, the Committee had failed to carry out the Instruction. He could assure the hon. Member that he was entirely mistaken in that view. Whatever might have been the former practice of the Committee, it certainly had not in late years recognised any class as a class entitled to exemption. Their practice had been, as he told the hon. Member the other day, to consider each individual case on its merits, and they had not recognised that either barristers or merchants, or any other persons engaged in any profession or business, were entitled on that ground alone to exemption from this work. At the same time, he fully admitted that the Committee had endeavoured to carry out the work in such a way as to cause the least possible inconvenience to hon. Members who were obliged occasionally to serve on the Private Bill Committees. The hon. Member for South West Manchester, who seconded the Instruction, had referred to the fact that the Committee of Selection did not grant exemption from this work to hon. Members who sat on other Committees. That was perfectly true; as a general rule they did not consider, and, indeed, they never had considered, that service on the ordinary Select Committees of the House entitled an hon. Member per se to exemption from service on Private Bill Committees, and for this reason, that the ordinary Select Committees were composed of hon. Members who served entirely by their own wish and desire, and who were not bound, if it did not suit their convenience, to attend. These Committees also, as a rule, sat only twice a week, and therefore, if the Committee of Selection were to make a practice of exempting from service on Private Bill Committees hon. Members who were serving on Select Committees, he did not think they would find hon. Members generally ready to serve at all on Private Bill Committees. Still, each case was considered separately on its merits, and there were certain Committees in regard to which the Committee of Selection fully recognised the fact that if a member of them did his duty it was not right to call upon him to serve on Private Bill Committees. Take, for instance, the Select Committee on Public Accounts. That was a most important body. It comprised among its members some of the most experienced and skilled Members of the House, and the Committee of Selection had always recognised service on that Committee as entitling to exemption from service on Private Bill Committees. That was only one of many instances. They did not also recognise service on Grand Committees as a ground of exemption, and he thought it would be adopting a very dangerous course were they to pursue any other policy. He would like to point out to the House that the Motion, if carried, would deprive the Committee of Selection of its discretionary powers, and would practically establish what the hon. and gallant Member for West Newington had on more than one occasion advocated, a simple roster of names, every man on which would in turn be called upon to serve. He ventured to submit to the House that such a proceeding would be neither desirable nor practicable. He would like to remind hon. Members that the duty of the Committee of Selection was not merely to find men to serve on Committees. They were especially ordered to have regard to the qualifications of the Gentlemen whom they chose, and in Committee they discussed in the most confidential manner the qualifications of the men best fitted to deal with particular classes of Bills. Necessarily their deliberations in that respect were of a most confidential character, and he was proud to be able to tell the House that members of his Committee, when entering on their duties, put on one side all political predilections and prejudices, and sought solely to form the most efficient Committees for the service of the House. Since the Committee had been established, he believed there had never been a formal division taken, and that was a proof of the smoothness with which they worked. He deprecated very much the adoption of any measure, unless absolutely unavoidable, which would tend to prevent any class of men from becoming Members of the House of Commons. One of the great glories of that Assembly was that it was representative of all classes and all occupations and professions, and he would be sorry to see anything done that would tend to reduce the House to a mere preserve for what were sometimes spoken of as professional politicians. He believed the present system worked satisfactorily. The Committees of the House bore the highest character of impartiality and efficiency, not a breath of corruption had ever been suggested, and he believed that they would compare favourably with the Committees of any legislature in any part of the world. Under these circumstances he asked the House to continue to place confidence in the Committee of Selection. There was a growing tendency in this and other Assemblies to call in question the work of Committees, and he would point out that if that practice increased, it must inevitably bring public business to a deadlock. If the House were not satisfied with the composition of the present Committee, it had the remedy in its own hands. But whether it altered the constitution of the Committee or left it alone, he did ask the House to have confidence in the Committee, composed as it was of some of the oldest and most experienced Members of all parties. Let them continue to give it the generous confidence it had always enjoyed, a confidence which gave it authority and weight, and enabled it to discharge most arduous and difficult duties with credit to the House, and with satisfaction to those who came before its tribunals.

(3.50.) DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)

said he thought the hon. Member who moved the Instruction had evolved a grievance out of his inner consciousness, and one which only existed in his own imagination. He entirely endorsed the remarks which had been made by the respected Chairman of the Committee, who enjoyed the full confidence of the members of that body, and who was proving himself the worthy successor of one whose name was synonymous with everything high, lofty, and noble in public life. The hon. Gentleman had a grievance, perhaps, because the Committee had left him severely alone. He had during the last three years sternly refused to take part in any private Bill work.

MR. DAVID THOMAS

No, no! The hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken. I have never suggested anything against the Chairman or any other Member of the Committee, and I have been willing to take my proper share of the work.

DR. FARQUHARSON

said he entirely accepted that statement, and he had no doubt that in future the hon. Member would be ready to take his proper share in the deliberations of the Committees upstairs. Some hon. Members took a rather different view of their responsibilities. Many of them were most anxious to serve, and only the previous day a distinguished young Member on the other side of the House expressed to him personally a wish that he could have some work to do, as he found his forenoons drag very heavily upon his hands. He could only repeat that the Committee in forming the Committees sought to secure the men best qualified to act, and he trusted that the House would continue its confidence in them.

*(3.55.) SIR W. HART DYKE (Kent, Dartford)

said that as a member of the Committee of Selection, he would like to call attention to some of the difficulties with which that body had to contend. He feared that there was in the mind of the hon. Member who moved the Instruction, and perhaps of some other hon. Members, some jealousy with regard to members of the legal profession. The Committee had to face very considerable difficulties in regard to this matter, but he protested against the Instruction and he hoped the House would reject it, because he thought that the result of its adoption would be absolutely disastrous in regard to their proceedings. Instead of giving elasticity of treatment, the work of the Committee would be made purely mechanical. However the hon. Member might seek to explain his Instruction, it meant in King's English that every Member of the House should receive absolutely equal treatment, and be called upon to serve on Private Bill Committees. In a day or two the House was to be invited to discuss rules which were intended to make it more business-like, but if they adopted the present Instruction it would have the effect before many years were over of driving many business men out of the House altogether. The duties of the Committee of Selection were both arduous and difficult, but individually and collectively they had but one object in view, and that was to meet as far as they could the personal arrangements of individual Members, while at the same time forming efficient Committees. They did not treat any particular class of Member, as a class entitled to exemption.

MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)

said he also, as a member of the Committee, would like to give his absolute adhesion to the language which their Chairman had used as to the spirit in which they conducted their deliberations. They looked only to the efficient conduct of the business of the House, and, representing as he did the Irish Party on the Committee, he wished to say that he had experienced from his fellow Members as much consideration with reference to the convenience of his colleagues as he could desire. They had very delicate, difficult, and responsible duties to perform, and they ought to be unfettered in the discharge from them. While there was to immunity from service on the part of any man or any profession, it was quite impossible to conduct the business without having practical regard to the difficulties which men engaged in all callings might from time to time experience. He was not sorry this Instruction had been brought forward, because he thought there was in the mind of those who had not attended on Private Bill Committees as he had done for a great many years, in this and other legislatures, a very imperfect idea of the importance and interest of the work. It was indeed most important and most interesting, and he would be very glad indeed if Members, and especially young Members, would come forward more readily and volunteer for this work. He thought the House would be well advised to leave this matter in the hands of the Committee, which in the past had shown such good sense, great tact, and fidelity and loyalty to the interests of the House generally.

(4.0.) Question put.

The House divided.—Ayes 48.—Noes 245. (Division list No. 13).

AYES.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Tennant, Harold John
Balcarres, Lord Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan,E.)
Bell, Richard Layland-Barratt, Francis Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings)
Brand, Hon. Arthur G. Levy, Maurice Thomas, J. A. (Glamorg'n, G'w'r
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Lewis, John Herbert Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Burt, Thomas Lough, Thomas Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.)
Caldwell, James M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) White, George (Norfolk)
Channing, Francis Allston M'Crae, George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Mansfield, Horace Rendell Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fenwick, Charles Percy, Earl Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.
Flower, Ernest. Pirie, Duncan V. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Fuller, J. M. F. Price, Robert John Yoxall, James Henry
Galloway, William Johnson Renwick, George
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Robinson, Brooke TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gretton, John Schwann, Charles, E. Mr. David Alfred Thomas and Captain Norton
Greville, Hon. Ronald Soares, Ernest J.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Stevenson, Francis S.
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Strachey, Sir Edward
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Aird, Sir John Colton, Chas. Edw. H. Athol Goulding, Edward Alfred
Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) Condon, Thomas Joseph Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry
Allsopp, Hon. George Cranborne, Viscount Greene, Sir E. W (B'ryS.Edmnds
Ambrose, Robert Crean, Eugene Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)
Anstruther, H. T. Crombie, John William Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hare, Thomas Leigh
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Crossley, Sir Savile Hayden, John Patrick
Arrol, Sir William Cullinan, J. Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dalkeith, Earl of Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.
Austin, Sir John Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Delany, William Helder, Augustus
Bailey, James (Walworth) Denny, Colonel Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter
Baldwin, Alfred Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Higginbottom, S. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Dillon, John Hoare, Sir Samuel
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Donelan, Captain A. Holland, William Henry
Banbury, Frederick George Doogan, P. C. Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Dorington, Sir John Edward Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Bartley, George C. T. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hoult, Joseph
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Bignold, Arthur Edwards, Frank Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil
Black, Alexander William Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Blake, Edward Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Jacoby, James Alfred
Boland, John Esmonde, Sir Thomas Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bond, Edward Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fardell, Sir T. George Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea
Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) Farquharson, Dr. Robert Jordan, Jeremiah
Bowles, T.Gibson (King's Lynn) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Joyce, Michael
Brigg, John Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (M'nc'r Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)
Broadhurst, Henry Ffrench, Peter Lawson, John Grant
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finch, George H. Lee, Arth. H. (Hants, Fareham)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Fisher, William Hayes Leese, Sir Jos'h F. (Accrington)
Burdett-Coutts, W. FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Caine, William Sproston Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Carew, James Laurence Flavin, Michael Joseph Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)
Carlile, William Walter Flynn, James Christopher Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Causton, Richard Knight Forster, Henry William Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. Lundon, W.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Foster, Phil. S. (Warwick, S. W. Macartney, Rt. H. W. G. Ellison
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Macdona, John Cumming
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Gardner, Ernest MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Garfit, William M'Fadden, Edward
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St Albans) M'Govern, T.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Gilhooly, James M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Coghill, Douglas Harry Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Kenna, Reginald
Majendie, James A. H. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Manners, Lord Cecil Plummer, Walter R. Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stone, Sir Benjamin
Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) Power, Patrick Joseph Stroyan, John
Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William Purvis, Robert Sullivan, Donal
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Randles, John S. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Reddy, M. Thornburg, Sir Walter
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thornton, Percy M.
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Remnant, James Farquharson Tollemache, Henry James
Mooney, John J. Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge Tomkinson, James
More, Robt. Jasper (Shrops.) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Tomlinson, Wm. Edwd. Murray
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Ritchie, Rt. H. Chas. Thomson Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Morley, Rt. Hn. John(Montrose Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morrison, James Archibald Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford Roche, John Tuke, Sir John Batty
Moulton, John Fletcher Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Valentia, Viscount
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Vincent, Cl. Sir C. E. H. (Shef'eld
Murphy, John Ropner, Colonel Robert Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Murray, Rt. H. A. Graham (Bute Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Nannetti, Joseph P. Rutherford, John Welby, Lt.-Cl. A.C.E. (Taunton
Newnes, Sir George Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Nicol, Donald Ninian Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid Sharpe, William Edward T. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew Wilson, John (Falkirk)
O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wilson, John (Glasgow)
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Shipman, Dr. John G. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Wylie, Alexander
O'Dowd, John Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
O'Malley, William Smith, H. C. (N'rth'mb Tyneside Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Spencer, Rt. Hon. C. R. (No'ants) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Stanley, Edwd. Jas. (Somerset) Mr. Halsey and Mr. Sydney Buxton.
Pilkington, Lieut.-Cl. Richard Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
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