HC Deb 05 August 1902 vol 112 cc679-85

"That a sum, not exceeding £9,819, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and subordinate office, expenses under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, and expenses under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, including a grant in aid of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Fund."

Resolution read a second time.

*(2.50.) MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)

protested against the attitude taken by the Secretary for Scotland in reference to the distress in the congested areas of the Highlands. The right hon. Gentleman would not take the trouble to inquire personally, but he accepted information from the landlords, who were the prime offenders. Though Parliament had provided the power and means to assist, nothing was being done to alleviate distress, which was especially acute in the Island of Lewis. There were 30,000 in that Island most of whom lived under deplorable conditions. They would probably be told that much had been done in other parts of the country, but the secret of that was that in these places the people, by defying the law, had forced the authorities to take action. All that had been done in the Island of Lewis was to secure a few acres for fishermen's dwellings. He would like the Lord Advocate himself to visit the place, and he would see that it was one of the worst off in the United Kingdom. Further, he had to complain that nothing had been done to remove the silt in Ness Harbour, and as a protest against the inaction of the Secretary for Scotland, in this and other matters connected with the congested areas, he moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '£9,819,' and insert '£9,719.'"—(Mr. Weir.)

Question proposed, "That '£9,819' stand part of the said Resolution."

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said he desired to call attention to the case of David Thomas, who was extradited from America on a charge of embezzling £1,500 belonging to a Cupar building society, and in respect of whose extradition the local magistrates had been mulcted in a portion of the costs. The local magistrates entered into the bond antecedent to the extradition proceedings being instituted in the belief, based on a statement of the Fiscal of the county, that it would not be enforced; but, on the conviction of the accused, they were charged with a part of the expenses of bringing him from America. What would have been their position had they refused to sign the bond? It was a case in which many local people were interested, and it would have been said that they were failing to assist in the proper administration of justice. In fact, they had no alternative but to sign the bond. As it was a Crown prosecution, it was felt that the local magistrates ought not to bear any part of the expense connected with the proper administration of justice, and the Lord Advocate would give general satisfaction in the locality if he could see his way to remit the charge.


, in reply to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, said he had really nothing to add to the statements he had made in Committee of Supply. His difficulty was that he was met with what he would call the vague declamation of the hon. Member against what he had characterised as the lethargy and want of movement on the part of the Secretary for Scotland. Nothing that he could say would probably have any effect on the hon. Member, and he could only comfort himself with the reflection that his general declamation was not confined to the Scotch Office. As he sat in the House, he had the opportunity of hearing the hon. Member urge very much the same class of complaint against the War Office, and even against the Foreign Office, now that he had extended his operations and had surveyed the world as far as India and Japan. The policy of his noble friend was put perfectly clearly in the report of the Congested Districts Board, which was adequately discussed when the Vote was before the Committee. That policy was to help those who helped themselves. The removal of the silt was still under consideration. Although the number of persons who offered to do the work was large, the amount of sand that could be moved in a day was limited, and it became obvious that the offer was not one that could be accepted, because it was no use attempting to cope with the silt unless it could be dealt with once and for all. The question was really an engineering one, as to which the Congested Districts Board must obviously be guided by professional advice. They were taking advice and considering the question, and it was not on account of any dilatoriness on their part that this delay had occurred. The same might be said about roads. The hon. Member opposite had said that the people in the district ought to know where roads were wanted, but anybody who had any experience of what the local recommendations came to knew that it was very unsafe to take the local view as against the expert view as to the line a road should take. This, again, was a question for an expert, by whose advice the Department should be guided. With reference to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that required some explanation. In the first place, he could not accept the hon. Member's view that the borough authorities did not expect that the bond would be enforced, for this reason—that if the Fiscal made such a statement, he had no right under the rules, which were very clearly laid down with regard to these matters, to give any such assurance. It had come to be believed that for the prevention of crime Scotland depended on the Government; as a fact, this was not so. It was the business of each locality to prevent crime in its own area, and any step taken by the Government was taken by means of a subvention. If that were not so, there would not be equality of treatment between the two kingdoms. It was the custom in England not to go into the question of extradition in regard to such crimes as forgery or embezzlement unless a bond for the expenses of getting back the alleged criminal was granted by the person who was prosecuting. In the same way in Scotland it had never been the habit for the Grown Office to ask for extradition unless they got a bond or guarantee from any one who wished a person put upon his trial. He supposed in the present case that feeling was so strong in the locality that the local authority came forward in the interests of the community, and gave the bond. It would have been against all ordinary

precedent if the bond had not been, exacted.

(3.13.) Question put.

House divided:—Ayes, 119; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 369.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. Finch, George H. Plummer, Walter R.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Pretyman, Ernest George
Allhusen, Augustus Henry. E. Fisher, William Hayes Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col Edward
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fison, Frederick William Purvis, Robert
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Flannery, Sir Fostescue Randles, John S.
Arrol, Sir William Flower, Ernest Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Galloway, William Johnson Reid, James (Greenock)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Gardner, Ernest Remnant, James Farquharson
Balcarres, Lord Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond. Renshaw, Charles Bine
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Balfonr, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks (Goulding, Edward Alfred Robertson, Herbert (Hackney),
Blundell, Colonel Henry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Rutherford, John
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Bull, William James Haslett, Sir James Horner Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Bullard, Sir Harry Higginbottom, S. W. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Campbell, Rt Hn. JA. (Glasgow Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hoult, Joseph Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbysh. Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham) Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Spear, John Ward
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Legge, Co). Hon. Heneage Stroyan, John
Coghill, Douglas Harry Llewellyn, Evan Henry Valentia, Viscount
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Warde, Colonel C. E.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Long, Rt, Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent) Webb, Colonel William George
Compton, Lord Alwyne Macdona, John Cumming Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton
Dalkeith, Earl of M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Davenport, William Bromley- Malcolm, Ian Willox, Sir John Archibald
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Milvain, Thomas Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Dickson, Charles Scott Morton, Arthur A. H.(Deptford Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Mount, William Arthur Wylie, Alexander
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Faber, George Denison (York) Nicol, Donald Ninian TELLERS FOR THE AYESmdash;
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sir William Walrond and
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r Platt-Higgins, Frederick Mr. Anstruther.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Donelan, Captain A. Lewis, John Herbert
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Doogan, P. C. Lloyd-George, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Duffy, William J. Lough, Thomas
Bell, Richard Edwards, Frank Lundon, W.
Brigg, John Esmonde, Sir Thomas MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Broadhurst, Henry Farrell, James Patrick M'Govern, T.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Flavin, Michael Joseph Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Calowell, James Flynn, James Christopher Mooney, John J.
Cameron, Robert Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Murnaghan, George
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Gilhooly, James Murphy, John
Causton, Richard Knight Grant, Corrie Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cawley, Frederick Harrington, Timothy Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Chamung, Francis Allston Hayden, John Patrick Norman, Henry
Craig, Robert Hunter Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- O'Brien Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Crean, Engene Horniman, Frederick John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cullinan, J. Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Jacoby, James Alfred O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Delany, William Leamy, Kdmund O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Dillon, John Levy, Maurice O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham Sheehan, Daniel Daniel White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Paulton, James Mellor Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Power, Patrick Joseph Sullivan, Donal Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Priestley, Arthur Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Trevelyan, Charles Philips TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Roche, John Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Mr. Weir and Mr. Dalziel.
Roe, Sir Thomas Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Question put, and agreed to.