HC Deb 04 August 1902 vol 112 cc572-85

1. Motion made, and Question proposed. "That a sum, not exceeding £118,409, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1903, for the Survey of the United Kingdom, and for minor services connected therewith."

(9.0.) SIR BARRINGTON SIMEON (Southampton)

said he was extremely sorry to have once more to trouble the Committee with the grievances of the temporary civil assistants of the Ordnance Survey Department. By an Act passed in 1859, the Ordnance Survey was recognised as a permanent Department of the Civil Service but by a decision of the Lords Commissioners all persons who entered after the 29th September, 1870, were deprived of the superannuation privileges enjoyed by permanent civil servants after the completion of ten years service. The Treasury Minute was based on representations of Sir Henry James, the then Director General of the Ordnance Survey Department, that the work of the Survey would be finished by the year 1880 and that the men going after 1870 could not possibly earn the right to a pension. But the work did not finish at the time predicted, and it was still going on with greater efficiency than ever, while he would think that recent events in South Africa would provide plenty of room for surveys, for the next two or three generations. In January, 1873, fifty-seven temporary civil assistants who had joined since September, 1870, were admitted to the permanent list, but the privilege was refused to those who joined afterwards, and who were employed on precisely the sameconditions. Undoubtedly many of these had joined under the impression that after a certain number of years service, they would be pensioned, and he maintained that it was not made sufficiently clean to them by the authorities that they would not get a pension. They spent the best part of their lives on work which had to be performed under difficult conditions. The labour was hard, and they were liable to be discharged for infirmity. They were apt to suffer from the failure of eye-sight. These wages were not sufficiently high to enable them to make provision for old age; they were compelled to keep up a decent appearance, to dress themselves well, and to educate their children. He had in his mind the case of a man with many years unexpired service. The Treasury had declined to give him any compensation because of the recommodation of the Commission which sat in 1888, in order to repeal Clause 7 of the Act of 1859. In 1888 that man had twenty years service; he bore an unblemished character; he was eventually discharged because of the completion of his duty, he lost all his years of employment, and got no pension of any description. Was it fair that the decision of the Committee of 1888 should have been made to have retrospective action as in his case? Certainly that Commission recommended that cases of individual hardship which were likely to arise might be avoided by transferring the officer to another department, but that had not been done in this man's case. He lost fourteen years service, and after twenty years of work he was turned off without any compensation at all. The President of the Local Government Board, who, in the last Parliament, was President of the Board of Agriculture, in 1899 expressed himself distinctly favourable to the claims, of these temporary assistants; and promised to submit a scheme on their behalf to the Treasury but unfortunately he had ceased to hold that position. He had always felt that the present President of the Board of Agriculture was the one stumbling block to pensions being granted in these cases. The right hon. Gentleman was then Financial Secretary to the Treasury; and when the holder of that office was opposed to a financial proposal, its chances became very slender indeed. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman really believed that these temporary assistants were not proper persons to receive pensions, but he would appeal to his sense of justice. The right hon. Gentleman had lately visited Southampton and seen these men at their work; he was able to note that the pensioned and the non-pensionable classes were engaged on exactly the same class of labour, receiving the same wages, and yet, when they had spent the best years of their lives on it, one set were sent adrift without any means of support, while the others were pensioned off. As long as he was a Member of that House he. would press for justice for those men.

MR. ARTHUR LEE (Hampshire, Fareham)

said he wished to make an appeal on behalf of a very deserving part of his constituents. These temporary civil assistants, or, as they were commonly called, labourers, of the-Ordnance Survey Department at Southampton had a very real grievance, not only in the rate of wages paid to them, but also in the absence of the pension. He understood they were told they would have no pension, because their rate of wages was so high- But their rate of wages was exactly the same as those men who received pensions, and he failed to see why they should be deprived of the privilege which was extended to more fortunate men on the list. It had been said that pensions could not be granted to temporary assistants, but one man had been employed for forty-five years. These men were employed as continuously as those who had the same work and drew the same wages and had a pension. If it was decreed they should not have a pension, he-thought it was only fair their wages should be raised. He thought it had been decided by a Committee that their wages should be raised, and it was only fair that the matter should be seriously considered by the right hon. Gentleman. These men were doing a very difficult and skilled class of work, and they deserved more consideration than the mere name of labourer would denote. The hon. Member for Southampton had put the case very clearly, and he only rose for the purpose of seconding the appeal he had made. He felt sure, if the right hon. Gentleman would return a sympathetic reply and take some sympathetic action in line with their request, that he would be only doing justice to a very deserving and hard-worked -section of the community.


, in reply, said some little misapprehension appeared to exist in regard to the real facts of the case, The principal reason why the service was made non-pensionable was that already in 1861 this had been done in the case of the labourers, and in 1870 it was considered right to abolish the distinction between the labourers and the civil assistants, whose work was of much the same character, and in order that the manufacturing establishments might all be treated on similar lines. Notice was given accordingly. Three years later, on January 4th, 1873, a circular was sent to all the divisions of the service saying that the Government had made up their minds that the service in future was not to be pensioned, and that the men who entered between 1870 and 1873 were not to receive pensions. It was said, however, and apparently not without reason, that the notice was not properly communicated to them, and thereupon a grievance arose. The grievance went on from 1873 to 1894, when it was at last remedied by a Government with a small majority. But how was it remedied? The usual course would have been to say, "You shall have your pension, provided you agree to a reduction of salary.'' But that was not done; the pension was granted, and the full salaries were continued. The remedy applied to the men who entered between 1870 and 1873. when full notice was given to the civil assistants that pensions would not be paid in future to those entering the service. Directly the other civil assistants, who joined after 1873, heard what was done they started a grievance of their own. They said, "Here are these men doing the same work as we are doing, drawing the same salary, and getting a pension in addition, and we ought to be treated as they are." But there was no doubt whatever in the case of these men on the ground of want of notice. When they entered, it was made perfectly clear to them that no pensions would be granted in the future, and consequently they were in a totally different position. In the Civil Service examination this preliminary pensionable service was done away with, and in any communication addressed to any civil assistant he was always addressed as a temporary civil assistant. That being the case, the men were not in the same position as the men who entered in 1870 or 1872, and they were being paid the salary which it was stipulated they should receive on entering the service. Further, the advantages of the service had been considerably increased over anything that had been promised. The men had received more holidays; at least a week had been added in addition to the holidays they received on entering the service. Then they had sick pay at higher rates, and a large number of pensionable posts had been created which were not in existence when the men entered the service. One out of every five of the men could, by mere duration of time, if they discharged their duties satisfactorily, rise to these pensionable posts. That was, of course, a very distinct advantage. Then, again, the wages had been considerably increased since 1873. In 1892 a Departmental Committee inquired into the grievances of the men so far as salaries were concerned. That Committee reported that the salaries had been considerably increased since 1873; and that, therefore, they could not conscientiously recommend a further increase. Even since 1892, however, the wages had been increased, and the Director General assured him that, although the maximum was not raised, the average rate of wages had considerably increased, while the men were receiving considerably higher wages than six years ago. Their hours of work were also shorter than was the case with outside trades; so that, as far as personal claims went, these servants had no case. Did his hon. friend mean that men temporarily employed in the public service should be put in the pension list? That system would not work, and did not exist in any other branch of the service. The labourers in the Department had not asked for pensions, although there was a very narrow distinction between them and the civil assistants. Why should there be a distinction drawn between these servants and other Government manufacturing establishments in the matter of pension? The other manufacturing establishments were conducted on the same lines with regard, to pension as the Ordnance Survey. Then it was said that the number of pensionable posts was not large enough; but the Government had gone as far as they could in that direction. It was not a question of this Department only, but it was fa question of the whole policy which was to be in existence with regard to all manufacturing establishments of the Government; and he could not undertake on behalf of one Department to break away from the rule which governed all these establishments. But, even supposing that the Treasury agreed that all the manufacturing Departments should be given pensions, would the clients of his hon. friend agree to the; corresponding reduction of salary which would follow? No; what was asked for were pensions with existing salaries. Even, however, if all the Government manufacturing Departments were pensionable, and if the clients of his hon. friend agreed to a reduction in salary, there was one further difficulty in regard to the Survey Department which did not arise n the case of any other Department. In 1914 the Survey would come to an end, and the service would be reduced from 1,600 to about 800 or 900 men. It would then be a permanent service— there would be a regular establishment; and if the question of pensions was to come up at all, then would be the time for its consideration. How could the question be dealt with now, when in a few years there was to be a reduction of staff to the extent of 50 per cent.? How was it possible to say which men would be permanently employed? If 800 were selected, a state of discontent and grumbling would be created among the rest. All or none would have to be pensioned. To pension all would work to the detriment of the service, and involve a vast waste of public money. Was it to the advantage of the State that this enormous expenditure should be incurred, or that, by pensioning one half of the men, a state of discontent should be created among the rest? The adoption of the latter alternative would inflict a gross injustice upon the men not selected. He had studied this question from the point of view both of the Financial; Secretary to the Treasury and of the President of the Board of Agriculture. Speaking in the latter capacity, as the employer of these men, he would, if he could, have made out a case for pensions. But his duty was not to send into the Treasury such a claim unless he thought, it could be reasonably sustained. These men were well paid; they entered the service with full knowledge of its condition; those conditions had since been greatly improved; and he could not see what personal claim they had. From the point of view of public policy, he failed to see why, this being a manufacturing Department of the Government, the people there employed should be treated differently from those employed in other manufacturing establishments. He had carefully considered everything that had been said in favour of this demand, but on the merits of the case he could not conscientiously ask the Treasury to depart from the decision at which they had: arrived.


moved to reduce the Vote by £100, on the ground that the deer forests in the Highlands were not shown on the ordnance maps. There ought to be a true survey of every yard of land in the United Kingdom. Instead of a decrease of £500, as was the case this year, there ought rather to be an increase.

Motion made and Question proposed,. "That a sum, not exceeding £118,309, be granted for the said Service."— (Mr. Weir.)

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, had not attempted to reply to the complaint of his hon. friend. It seemed, to be part of the Ministerial policy with regard to Scottish matters to sit silent until the closure was applied, instead of giving the information which had been asked for in a proper way.


understood the hon. Member's grievance was that the Highlands 1 were not surveyed on the 25-inch scale. The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty had asked that deer forests should be marked on these maps. There was nothing of the kind on the other maps, and there appeared to be no special reason why an exception should be made in this case. If the hon. Member would state some special reason why it should be done he would take care that the request received consideration.


said he communicated with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, but his answer was not satisfactory.

(9.58.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 109; Noes, 189. (Division List No. 353.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E Hayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Chas. Seale- O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Holland, Sir William Henry O'Mara, James
Bell, Richard Horniman, Frederick John O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Partington, Oswald
Brigg, John Jacoby, James Alfred Power, Patrick Joseph
Broadhurst, Henry Jameson, Major J. Eustace Priestley, Arthur
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jones, William Carnarvonshire Rea, Russell
Caldwell, James Kearley, Hudson E. Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Law, Hugh Alex, (Donegal. W) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Causton, Richard Knight Leamy, Edmund Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cawley, Frederick Leigh, Sir Joseph Robson, William Snowdon
Channing, Francis Allston Levy, Maurice Roche, John
Craig, Robert Hunter Lewis, John Herbert Roe, Sir Thomas
Crean, Eugene Lloyd-George, David Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Shipman, Dr. John G.
Cullinan, J. Lundon, W. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Dalziel, James Henry MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sullivan, Donal
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Tennant, Harold John
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Delany, William M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Thomson, F.W. (York, W.R.)
Dilke, Right Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, Horace Rendall Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dillon, John Mooney, John J. Tully, Jasper
Donelan, Captain A. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Ure, Alexander
Doogan, P. C. Moss, Samuel Wallace, Robert
Edwards, Frank Moulton, John Fletcher Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Elibank, Master of Murnaghan, George Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Emmott, Alfred Murphy, John Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Luke, (York, E. R.)
Farrell, James Patrick Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. Whiteley, George (York. W. R.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Flynn, James Christopher O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid Yoxall, James Henry
Gilhooly, James O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Grant, Corrie O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.).
Griffith, Ellis J. O'Connor, James (Wicklow.'W TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Harrington, Timothy O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Mr. Weir and Mr. John
Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Dewar.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Bullard, Sir Harry Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Butcher, John George Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Carlile William Walter Dickson, Charles Scott
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cautley, Henry Strother Duke, Henry Edward
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Balcarres, Lord Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Faber, George Denison (York)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Balfour. Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Chapman, Edward Finch, George H.
Balfour, Kenneth K. (Christch. Charrington, Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Banbury, Frederick George Churchill, Winston Spencer Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas
Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks Clive, Captain Percy A. Fisher, William Hayes
Bigwood, James Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Fison, Frederick William
Bill, Charles Cog' hill, Douglas Harry Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cohen, Benjamin Louis Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Flower, Ernest
Bousfield, William Robert Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge Galloway, William Johnson
Brotherton, Edward Allen Cranborne, Viscount Gardner, Ernest
Bull, William James Davenport, William Bromley- Gibbs. Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) Scott, Sir S (Marylebone, W,)
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Macdona, John Cumming Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Maconochie, A. W. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Greene, W. Raymond-Cambs.) Majendie, James A. H. Spear, John Ward
Greville, Hon. Ronald Manners, Lord Cecil Spencer, Sir K. (W. Bromwich)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Max well, W.J. H. Dumfr'sshire Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hamilton, RtHnLordG. (Mid'x Melville, Beresford Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Valentine Milvain, Thomas Stone, Sir Benjamin
Harris, Frederick Leverton Montagu. G. (Huntingdon) Stroyan, John
Haslett, Sir James Horner Moon Edward Robert Pacy Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hay, Hon. Claude George Morrell, George Herbert Thornton, Percy M.
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford Tollemache, Henry James
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Higginbottom. S. W. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E Nicholson, William Graham Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Nicol, Donald Ninian Valentia, Viscount
Hoult, Joseph O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Houston, Hobert Paterson Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Parker, Sir Gilbert Warr, Augustus Frederick
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Peel. Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Webb, CoIonelWilliam George
Hudson, George Bickersteth Penn, John Welby, Lt.-Col, A, C. E. (Taunt'n
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Pierpoint, Robert Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne
Kenyon. Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Plummer, Walter R. Willox, Sir. John Archibald
Keswiek, William Pretyman, Ernest, George Wills, Sir Frederick
Kimber, Henry Pryce-Jonos, Lt.-Col. Edward Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Purvis, Robert Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Randles. John S. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.
Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wilson-Todd, Win. H. (Yorks)
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Reid, James (Greenock) Wodehouse, Rt. Hu. E.R. (Bath
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Remnant, James Farqubarson Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wylie, Alexander
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Robinson, Brooke
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Royds, Clement Molyneux TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rutherford, John Sir William Walrond and
Lowe, Francis William Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Mr. Anstruther.
Lowther, C. (CumK, Eskdale) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

(10.8.) Original Question put.

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 208; Noes, 101. (Division List No. 354.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Bullard, Sir Harry Davenport, William Bromley-
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Butcher, John George Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Carlile, William Walter Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Carson, Et. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Dewar, Sir T. R. (TowerHm'lets
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Causton, Richard Knight Dickson, Charles Scott
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cautley, Henry Strother Dilke, lit. Hon. Sir Charles
Balcarres, Lord Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Duke, Henry Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hn GeraldW (Leeds Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Faber, George Denison (York)
Banbury, Frederick George Channing, Francis Allston Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Chapman, Edward Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)
Beckett, Ernest William Charrington, Spencer Finch, George H.
Bigwood, James Churchill, Winston Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bill, Charles Clive, Captain Percy A. Firbauk, Sir Joseph Thomas
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fisher, William Hayes
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Coghill, Douglas Harry Fison, Frederick William
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Cohen, Benjamin Louis FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Bousfield, William Robert Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Flower, Ernest
Brotherton, Edward Allen Cox, Irwin Edwin Bainbridge Foster, Philip S. (Warwick. SW
Bull, William James Cranborne, Viscount Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Galloway, William Johnson Lon Lonsdale, John Brownlee Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Gardner, Ernest Lowe, Francis William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Gibbs, Hn. AGH. (City of Lond. Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Godson. SirAugustus Frederick Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S. Lyttleton, Hon. Alfred Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop Macartney, Rt. Hn. WGEllison Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Macdona, John Cumming Simeon, Sir Barrington
Goschen, Hn. George Joachim Maconochie, A. W. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) Majendie, James A. H. Spear, John Ward
Greville, Hon. Ronald Manners, Lord Cecil Spencer, Sir E. (W, Bromwich)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh. Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Melville, Beresford Valentine Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Milvain, Thomas Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. LordG (Mid'x Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Stroyan, John
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Harris, Frederick Leverton Morgan, David J. (Walth'aist'w Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Haslett, Sir James Horner Morrell, George Herbert Tennant, Harold John
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford Thornton, Percy M.
Hay, Hon. Claude George Mount, William Arthur Tollemache, Henry James
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Higginbottom, S. W. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Nicholson, William Graham Valentia, Viscount
Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside Nicol, Donald Ninian Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hoult, Joseph O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Warde, Colonel C. E.
Houston, Robert Paterson Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Warner, Thomas Conrtenay T.
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Parker, Sir Gilbert Warr, Augustus Frederick
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Paulton, James Mellor Webb, Colonel William George
Hudson, George Bickersteth Peel, Hn. Wm. RobortWellesley Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Penn, John Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pierpoint, Robert Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyue
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Platt-Higgins, Frederick Willox, Sir John Archibald
Kenyan, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Plummer, Walter R. Wills, Sir Frederick
Keswick, William Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson, A, Stanley (York, E. R.)
Kimber, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Purvis, Robert Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Randles, John S. Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham Reid, James (Greenock) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Remnant, James Farquharson Wylie, Alexander
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Robinson, Brooke
Loder, Gerald Walter Eveskine Rolleston, Sir John F. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Royds, Clement Molyneux Sir William Walrond and
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Rutherford, John Mr. Anstruther.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Emmott, Alfred MacDonnall, Dr. Mark A.
Atherley-Jones, L. Farrell, James Patrick MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Bell, Richard Flynn, James Christopher M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin
Brigg, John Gilhooly, James Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Broadhurst, Henry Grant, Corrie Mooney, John J.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Griffith, Ellis J. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Caldwell, James Harrington, Timothy Moss, Samuel
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Hayden, John Patrick Moulton, John Fletcher
Carew, James Laurence Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale Murnaghan, George
Cawley, Frederick Holland, Sir William Henry Murphy, John
Craig, Robert Hunter Horniman, Frederick John Nannetti, Joseph P.
Crean, Eugene Jacoby, James Alfred Nolan, Col. John P (Galway, N.
Cremer, William Randal Jameson, Major J. Eustace Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Cullinan, J. Kearley, Hudson E. Norman, Henry
Dalziel, James Henry Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Leamy, Edmund O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Delany, William Leigh, Sir Joseph O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Levy, Maurice O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Dillon, John Lewis, John Herbert O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Doogan, P. C. Lloyd-George, David O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Edwards, Frank Lough, Thomas O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Elibank Master of Lundon, W. O'Kelly. James (Roscommon, N.
O'Mara, James Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Shipman, Dr John G. Weir, James Galloway
Partington, Oswald Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Power, Patrick Joseph Sullivan, Donal Whiteley, George (York, W.R.
Priestley, Arthur Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)
Rea, Russell Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Roberts, John Bryn (Eition) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Yoxall, James Henry
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Tully, Jasper
Robson, William Snowdon Ure, Alexander TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Roche, John Wallace, Robert Sir Thomas Esmonde and
Roe, Sir Thomas Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Captain Donelan.

It being after Ten of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 28th of April, put severally the Questions, That the total amount of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

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