HC Deb 01 August 1902 vol 112 cc483-7

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £100 be granted to His Majesty, to make good Excesses of Army Expenditure beyond the Grants, for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1901."

Resolutions read a second time.

First Resolution to be further considered upon Monday next.

Second Resolution.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said he rose to make a most emphatic protest against the action of the Government in closuring this Vote last night after a few Members only had spoken, and then taking it this evening under circumstances which made the discussion of it absolutely impossible. This Motion was brought in only yesterday when the discussion was curtailed, and they were forced to discuss the question without being allowed proper time to go into the details of it. It was not fair that the Report of the Vote should be brought forward under such circumstances. The Report of the Auditor General showed that hundreds of thousands of pounds had been spent, and that there was not the slightest wonder as to where the money had gone. Last night many points were raised on which no answer was given. Information was asked as to how it was that the Cold Storage Company was able to buy oxen in South Africa without any competition at all. There was not much difficulty in making a million of money, provided they got the cattle at any price at which they wished to take them away. Why were the sales not properly advertised? He wanted information also in regard to the statement that a number of men had taken commissions from both sides in connection with the buying of horses. The Auditor General reported that he had received no information from the War Office as to the action which was to be taken in that matter. He hoped the Financial Secretary of the War Office would give the House some information on that point. It showed muddle and mismanagement to bring on a most important matter of this kind at a time when it could not be discussed, and he entered his emphatic protest against the whole proceeding.


asked whether there was anything in the Supply Rule which prevented this vote being taken on Tuesday night after the rest of Supply had been disposed of, or at an earlier part of the day.


It must be reported before the Appropriation Act, and therefore it is of importance to have it tonight.


said the hon Member was under a misapprehension. The necessity for taking this Vote now did not arise out of the present Supply Rule. The Army required this Excess Vote. Until it was passed, it was impossible for the Treasury to exercise the power which Parliament had vested in it to authorise the savings of the Service Votes to be applied to the deficits of other Votes. When the Treasury had given that sanction the Government had then to ask for Parliamentary sanction of the temporary authorisation given by the Treasury. This was obtained by a Resolution in Committee subsequently confirmed on report by the House. The Government had not only to obtain the report of this Resolution, but the Committee stage and report of another Resolution.


said there were many points he should like to deal with, but he would only refer to one or two. He called attention to an item in regard to 10,000 blankets, on which there was a loss of 1s. 6d. each. That showed very bad business indeed. He found from the Auditor General's report that there was no stock-taking at Pimlico stores last year. That again showed bad business management. A Report was issued about a fortnight ago by the Public Accounts Committee, and in it there were some damning statements. Why was this Excess Vote not taken ten days earlier when it could have been discussed? Business ought not to be rushed through in the way now proposed.


said the whole of the points raised by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had been discussed by the Public Accounts Committee, and the decision of that Committee might very well be left as the opinion of the House. With regard to the other questions, when, after the war, there was an enormous demand for blankets the price naturally went up, but, as the Department had made their requisitions beforehand, they thought it only fair to supply the blankets at the rate existing before the price went up. As to the Pimlico works, it was impossible to carry through stock-taking. There was great pressure on the works last year in getting supplies ready for South Africa, and he did not think that hon. Members would have expected in the circumstances that there should have been stock-taking. As soon as the normal conditions were restored there would be stock-taking.

(8.13.) Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 137; Noes, 45. (Division List No. 350.)

AcLand-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Blundell, Colonel Henry Charrington, Spencer
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bolton, Thomas Dolling Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Arrol, Sir William Bousfield, William Robert Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John Butcher, John George Cranborne, Lord
Bain, Colonel James Robert Carlile, William Walter Davenport, W. Bromley-
Balcarres, Lord Cautley, Henry Strother Davies, Sir HoratioD.(Chath'm
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire Dickson, Charles Scott
Balfour, Rt Hn Ger'ld W. (Leeds Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Banbury, FrederickGeorge Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Beckett, Ernest William Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.
Bigwood, James Chapman, Edward Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Sackville, Col.S. G. Stopford-
Duke, Henry Edward Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Brist'l, S. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Edwards, Frank Lonsdale, John Brownlee Samuel. Henry S. (Limehouse
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lowe, Francis William Seely, Maj. J. E.B.(Isle of Wight
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r Lowther, C (Cumb. Eskdale) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Loyd, Archie Kirkman Smith, Abel H. Hertford, East
Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Spear. John Ward
Fison, Frederick William Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Macdona, John Cumming Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Maconochie, A. W. Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Stroyan, John
Galloway, William Johnson M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets Manners, Lord Cecil Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Middlemore, John Throgmort'n Valentia, Viscount
Grenfell, William Henry Mildmay, Francis Bingham Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
Gretton, John Molesworth, Sir Lewis Wallace, Robert
Griffith, Ellis J. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. More, Robert Jasper (Shr'pshire Welby. Lt. Col. A C E (Taunton
Haslett, Sir James Horner Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hatch. Ernest Frederick Geo. Morrell, George Herbert Wilson, John, (Glasgow)
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Morton, Arthur H. A(Deptford Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Wilson-Todd. Wm.H. (Yorks.
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Murray, Charles J. (Coventry Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Keswick, William Nicholson, William Graham Wortley, Rt. Hon. C-B. Stuart-
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Nicol, Donald Ninian Wylie, Alexander
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Wyndham. Rt. Hn. George
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Wyndhain-Quin, Major W. H.
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Platt, Higgins, Frederick
Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Far'ham Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Purvis, Robert TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Remnant, James Farquharson Sir William Walrond and
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney Mr. Anstrnther.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Royds, Clement Molyneux
Ambrose, Robert Harrington, Timothy O'Mara, James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayden, John Patrick O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Brigg, John Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Pickard, Benjamin
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph
Caldwell, James Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Priestley, Arthur
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Leamy, Edmund Rea, Russell
Channing, Francis Allston Lundon, W. Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Clancy, John Joseph Moss, Samuel Roche, John
Craig, Robert Hunter Murnaghan. George Sullivan, Donal
Crean, Eugene Murphy, John Tully, Jasper
Cremer, William Randal Nannetti, Joseph P. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Cullinan. J. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Dalziel, James Henry O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Delany, William O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Doogan, P. C. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Captain Donelan and Mr.
Farrell, James Patrick O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Weir.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Malley, William
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