HC Deb 19 March 1901 vol 91 cc497-517

*SIR BRAMPTON CURDON (Norfolk, N.) moved to reduce the Vote by £10,000 in respect to Somaliland, and said that in accordance with the appeal of the First Lord of the Treasury to the Committee to give every Vote a fair chance, he should be as brief as possible in his remarks. His object in moving the reduction was to call attention to the revival of a practice which had long fallen into disuse in this country—the use of mercenaries in our wars. He referred to the employment of the Central African Regiment, first of all in Somaliland and then in West Africa. So long as native troops were used in their own particular country he offered no objection: but he certainly did object to their being moved into other countries as soldiers. In the future the Central African Regiment might become after years of training as reliable as the Sikhs, but at present they could not be trusted either in victory or defeat. It was in the recollection of the Committee that a discussion arose last year on the question of these men being removed to the Mauritius for garrison duty, the result being that they followed out their natural instincts and rebelled against discipline, broke out of barracks, and raided villages, murdering men and outraging women. He had never found out who was responsible for their being brought to Mauritius. They were severely punished and removed to Somaliland. He could only describe them as mercenaries, because they had not been long enough under the dominion of Great Britain to have any feeling of patriotism for our cause. A great many of our Yeomen who had gone out to South Africa went out for the fun of the fighting; but at the same time they felt that they were fighting for their country, and were buoyed up by the feeling of patriotism for our cause. He made no objection to Indian troops in China, because they had been so long under our rule that they had an attachment for us and were proud to fight for us, but the native troops which were now being employed in Somaliland were nothing better than mercenaries, whose instincts were almost animal, and it was a very dangerous thing to send these men to fight in a country when we could not restrain them in the moment of victory or depend upon them in the moment of defeat. He agreed with what had been said as to the disadvantage of placing these protectorates under the Foreign Office. British Central Africa, for which he claimed to speak, was earnestly desirous of being transferred to the Colonial Office. He moved the reduction of the Vote by the sum. of £200.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item, Class 5, Vote '2, be reduced by £10,000, in respect of Somali-land (Grant in Aid)."—(Sir Brampton Gurdon.)


The hon. Gentleman who has moved this reduction devoted a great part of his remarks to protesting against the use of these men in Somaliland. I can comfort him in that regard; they have not been used in Somaliland. Though they were in garrison there at the time of the out break of hostilities, they were unfortunately afflicted with illness, and were not available. I do not admit at all that these men behaved badly on the Mauritius, as the hon. Gentleman suggests.


Not at all; I stuck up for them. I said they were only following their natural instincts.


Nor can I allow them to be called mercenaries Of course they are mercenaries, in the sense that they are paid; but then so are the British soldiers, of whom we are all so proud. I think it is a strong order to say that these men do not feel their position as subjects of the British Empire as much or even more than we do. Hon. Members seem to have forgotten the enormous benefits conferred upon these men by their being under British rule, and it is very natural that they should be proud of their position in the Empire. I entirely repudiate the idea that they are mercenaries in any adverse sense of the word, and if we find, as we do, that these native troops are far more suitable for the conditions under which warfare in various parts of Africa is carried on we ought to use them. These troops we employ are far cheaper than any other troops that we could possibly employ. They are far cheaper than British troops and far cheaper than Indian troops, and upon every ground, therefore, from the point of view of cheapness and from the point of view of patriotism, we ought to employ them. Representing as I do the Foreign Office, J ought not to pass by altogether what has been said as to the administration of Somaliland and the other protectorates which are administered by the Foreign Office. The House may rest assured that there arc special reasons why these protectorates should be administered rather by the Foreign than the Colonial Office. We have Protectorates whose frontiers adjoin those of France, Germany, and Italy, and questions constantly arise which can only be dealt with by the Foreign Office, and it would only tend to delay matters if these protectorates were transferred to the administration of the Colonial Office. That is the case of Somaliland; on the east we have the Italian hinterland, and on the west the French colonies, and those two nations are in constant relations with the protectorate.


The same consideration applies to West Africa.


Things in West Africa are in a very much more forward state undoubtedly. When once these countries are brought under settled government then they can be transferred to the Colonial Office, but that is not yet the case with Somaliland. I now propose very shortly to give an account of the expedition in Somaliland as I did in the case of Matabeleland, but I ought to preface it by the remark that it is very much a matter of conjecture, as we have not yet got to the end of operations. The object of the operations which are taking place in Somaliland is to check the depredations and attacks of a certain Mullah, who has for several years past been a great danger to the peace and order of that part of the world. He is a Mahdi, if I might say so, on a small scale, and I might very well rest the case there, because anyone who is familiar with what took place in the Soudan, which led to our expedition in that country, will have a full knowledge of the evils connected with Mahdism. This man was first heard of in 1896, but he did not attain any importance until 1899, when he returned from a pilgrimage to Mecca as the leader of a certain sect which pro- ceeded to make proselytes in Somaliland, following the ordinary course of religious zealots. He claimed to rule the whole of the centre of Somaliland, from which he was good enough to say the English must go, although they might hold the coast, He then commenced a system of raiding accompanied by murder and robbery, and his despotism became such a nuisance that the tribes under our protection, having fought against it, cried out that they were gradually losing faith in our power to protect them. Their cattle were being carried away and the people were being murdered, and we were told that if we did not interfere they would he compelled to make friends with the Mullah to save themselves. The matter was complicated by the views of the Abyssinians. The Abyssinians applied to us to know whether we were going to permit the existence of this source of disorder, and asked for a reply. Matters wont on, and the power and audacity of the Mullah increased, and it was finally represented to us by our officer on the spot that the situation had become dangerous. The same information came from the Abyssinians, so that the position of the Mullah could no longer be tolerated. At the end of November last year, therefore, the Government resolved to make preparations to check the Mullah. The British Central African Regiment was not available, but a body of Somalia was raised, with British officers and arms. Recently, I am glad to say, we hear that the Mullah has been engaged with the Abyssinians, and that they soundly defeated him. An advance on our side is now under consideration in order to subdue him finally. With regard to the future of Somaliland, I may say that this year the trade has reached its highest level since the opening of British rule, and the revenue has also improved. I do not deny that the temporary military expenditure has increased, but on the whole the outlook is by no means unfavourable, and I hope the expenditure will be confined to a limited amount. I need say no more, and I hope I have said enough to satisfy the Committee with regard to this Vote.


said the speech which had been delivered by the noble Lord would not bring conviction to the mind of anyone as to the justification of the proceedings which the Government had taken in South Africa. Such flimsy pretexts had never been given in the House of Commons for the expenditure of one million of money as those just given by the noble Lord as a reason for these military operations in Somaliland. The Mullah had made a pilgrimage to Mecca, and on his return had endeavoured to convert the people of his country to his own religious views. If that were a crime sufficient to necessitate a military expedition, then the British were guilty of that crime in a greater degree than any other nation of the world. The noble Lord had characterised this man as a, barbarian and a general nuisance, and the British taxpayer was therefore to be called upon to find the money to make war upon him. It was a self-evident proposition that the Abyssinians were a civilised people and able to take care of themselves, because if they had not been nothing was more certain than that the Government would have made war upon them for the purpose of capturing their country. There was one curious fact with regard to the policy of the Government in Africa, and that was that, although they were always in hot water with somebody, they took care not to get into hot water with any people they did not think were weak enough to be subdued. The noble Lord had just said there was another expedition under consideration. Why, what reason was there for another expedition? He objected to this item of expenditure, not only because to some extent it fell upon Ireland, but from the English point of view that Members had a, right to complain that the Government, when they considered it necessary to indulge in a warlike expedition against a mad Mullah, did not take precautions to have a, proper military expedition launched against him, but Were continually coming to the House for supplies. The noble Lord said this man was to be persecuted because he had endeavoured to impose his religious views upon other people.


I did not say anything of the kind.


said he wished that sentiment had been acted upon in respect to Ireland, where the I whole object of past Governments had been to impose their religious views upon the people of that country. He was glad that a reduction had been moved in this Vote. He strongly objected to these continual Votes for war-like expeditions. Whatever the case might be with regard to the necessity of these expeditions from a British point of view, from the Irish point of view there was absolutely no justification for the expenditure of a single penny in this direction. He did not know what the constituents of the Liberal Members of the House were like, but from the action of the Liberal party from time to time upon questions of this kind he was inclined to think that their constituents could not be up to much. There could be no doubt in the mind of the noble Lord that those Irish Members who represented Irish constituencies had got a mandate from the people who elected them to offer the strongest opposition in their power to expenditure of this kind, "The previous Vote which had been passed was very similar to this one, and now they were asked to vote £200,000 for a war against some unfortunate Mullah who happened to hold religious views different from the noble Lord opposite and his noble relative the Member for Greenwich. This Mullah might not be ritualistic enough to suit the Member for Greenwich, but that was no reason why his head should be cut off and a military expedition launched against him. From the point of view of the Irish taxpayers they were perfectly justified in opposing this expenditure. They knew that the members of the Government would be the last people to refuse to admit that there was in Ireland the most pressing need for the expenditure of money in order to develop the industries of the country. The people of Ireland were in a state of distress, and yet they had the greatest difficulty in getting the House of Commons to listen to Irish representatives. They were asked to vote hundreds of thousands of pounds for these unnecessary, dangerous, iniquitous, and sanguinary wars in every part, of Africa, and if they offered the slightest objection they were told that they were obstructing and interfering with the business of the House and the country. Whenever a Vote of this kind came up it must be apparent to all hon. Members that it would be far better for the interests of this country if, instead of being compelled to come to this House, they were allowed to remain at home and manage their own affairs.


said that after the explanation given by the noble Lord he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment. [Cries of "No, no!" from the Irish benches.]

Permission to withdraw being refused.


said he understood from what the noble Lord had just stated that another expedition was to take place immediately in Africa. He wished to know if it had been already organised, when would it be put in motion, what was its object, was the expedition unavoidable, and was there any prospect of preventing it? They did not often get to know anything of this kind until the bill was presented to Parliament. The noble Lord had treated them with a frankness and an open-mindedness to which they were not accustomed. As ho had told them so much about the matter, perhaps he would not mind telling them a little more. When was this expedition to take place and what was the length of time that would be necessary to secure the object in view? Perhaps the noble Lord could tell the Committee what the probable cost would be and how much this country was likely to benefit by the expedition when it was over.


The object of the expedition is to defeat the Mullah and to destroy his power. If there is any chance of his power being destroyed without an expedition, no one will be more delighted than the Government. I am bound to say that I do not think the expedition can be avoided. The situation has become intolerable. This man's barbarity injures our trade; and hurts our subjects, and he must be destroyed. The Mullah was originally a religious leader, but his religious character has disappeared and his barbarity and tyranny remain.

*MR. JOHN BURNS (Battersea)

thought the House of Commons was very much indebted to the hon. Member for ' getting this information from the noble Lord. It was all very well for him to say that this Mullah was mad—


I have never the used word "mad" in the whole course of these proceedings.


said that perhaps in the mind of the noble Lord he was something worse than mad—he was religious. He wished to deal with the statement of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the effect that in the neighbourhood of Somaliland a native chief had arisen who had become a nuisance to British interests. He had become such a nuisance that he had to be hunted down at all cost. If the noble Lord thought that this hunting of Mullahs could go on indefinitely east, west, north, and south, in the present strained condition of the finances of the British Empire, then he had embarked upon an expedition the end of which no man could see and the cost of which the British taxpayers would seriously resent if the Government were to give them an opportunity. They resented Mullah hunting in general and the Somaliland one in particular. The noble Lord stated that this expedition was going on, and would go on until this Mullah was destroyed. But they were not going to destroy this Mullah and his power so easily. He started this game in 1896, and in 1899 he became serious. He presumed that the Mullah was an Arab and had paid a visit to Mecca, and in consequence some disagreement had ensued. Therefore, he came back from Mecca and became a nuisance. He was accused of stealing cattle, but there were British subjects in other parts of Africa who were engaged in that occupation at the present time. Did the Government also propose to destroy the cattle stealers there? The chief offence of this man was that, under the, guise of religious inspiration, this religious enthusiast had started "lifting" the cattle of his neighbours. But that was a, congenial and reciprocal pastime in Somaliland. His fellow-countrymen north of the Tweed indulged in the same pastime 200 years ago. Cattle stealing was a tribal pastime, in Africa, almost as popular as foxhunting and breaking down farmers' fences was in this country. Surely that was no reason why they should kill the men who indulged in it. They appeared to have determined to rout out of Africa every tribe that showed courage, every chief who displayed independence, and every native community which had courageously determined to stick to their own language, religion, habits and customs, and if England continued this policy much longer these oppressed people would join together in one common cause, and a, condition of things in Africa would arise which all the European Powers combined would not be able to overcome and subdue. They tried the same thing on with the Mahdi. and then they transferred their attention to Kruger and to Steyn, and they would have liked to have done the same thing with Menelik, but he was too strong. The Italians tried to do the same thing, and he rejoiced to think that the Abyssinians wiped out the demoralised Italians at Adowa.


Order, order! The subject to which the hon. Member is referring has no bearing upon this Vote.


said he would bow at once to the Chairman's ruling. The noble Lord talked about the enforcement of discipline as if discipline and military rule were synonymous with the development of British trade. That was not true, and he believed that just in proportion as they tried to subject these native tribes to military discipline to that extent they would damage their trade and interfere with commercial interests; not only this, but they would damage the future relationship of this country with the people whom they ought to be in kindly, benevolent, and friendly contact with. Who were the people they had chosen for this expedition? They had employed 1,600 Central African irregulars.


Native levies.


said that by employing those men under British supervision they were only producing tribal animosities. [Ministerial cries of "Oh, oh !"] He could assure hon. Members opposite that they were not going to howl him down, and so long as he was in order he should exercise the attenuated rights left to a Member of Parliament of expressing his views. He believed that the employment of these irregulars was going to do a great deal of harm to British interests, and as one who had had a year's experience of them in one of the worst parts of Africa be would say-that just in proportion as they used force to destroy native habits and customs they were damaging trade, weakening their prestige, and accentuating permanently the very thing they hoped to remove. He would read to the Committee an extract from the writings of a very distinguished African, Sir Andrew Clarke. He said—and his remarks apply to East Africa— We should be happier in our rule on the West Coast —and I speak from experience, for I was out there for some time myself—if we had confined ourselves to pure trading. At present we can only succeed by forced labour, and that always means the deterioration of both English and native. Remember this, that on the West Coast we are only re-occupying ground which was occupied by the powerful and pious influence of the Roman Catholics—I refer to the government of the Portuguese, years ago. They spent money and lives, but failed, and now there remain of their rule only the ruins of convents and old palaces, which you will see crumbling to dust in the jungle, with ceilings painted by Italians. Nature is too strong for the European, and it will be the same with us. Our work in the Hinterland may prolong our stay, but in time it will be handed over to natives, controlled and guided by a half-caste and bastard population of our own race. And awful then will be the condition of West Africa. It will be a solemn warning to England, and an object lesson on the absolute necessity for firm decision between the true colonisation of our race and the occupying of territory merely for the purposes of money-getting. And to confirm him on page 28 of the Central Africa Protectorate Report there appeared the following:— There is a steady increase of contagious venereal diseases among Europeans and natives, and other horrors incidental to this undisciplined-territory grabbing.

That was the civilisation which they intended to give to Somaliland by such expeditions as the noble Lord was now engaged in. This country, through lack of judgment and tact, in sixty years had undertaken sixty-three wars and ex- peditions against native tribes in east, west, north, south, not only of Africa, but of Asia. The people of this country were getting tired of such campaigns in Africa, alternating with expeditions on the north-west frontier of India. Was the Government going to enforce equal rights to all men in South Africa and destroy the Boers, who were rightly struggling to be free? He protested with all his force against the House of Commons surrendering its supervisory duties and its controlling power to the Cabinet. So long as the House of Commons surrendered its duty of control in such matters, and allowed inexperienced military men to manage such affairs, so long would the taxation of the country continue to go up. It was because he believed their Empire would be diminished and not increased by such expeditions, because he believed that their honour was attacked and their prestige was being slowly whittled away, that be deprecated the speech made by the noble Lord. He should condemn the Somaliland expedition as long as he was a Member of the House, for such expenditure was only squandering their money, irritating the native tribes against them, and making the name of England a bye-word and reproach to the smaller nations of the earth. He appealed to every hon. Member on this side of the House, and to the better intentioned hon. Members on the other side—to the old-fashioned Tories who were getting tired of the new diplomacy and this world-wide brigandage and filching away of native rights and customs from people who had a right to any religion which they cared to profess—to vote against this policy, which was permanently damaging the British Empire, its name, and its best traditions.


I hope the House will agree with me when I say that on a. Supplementary Estimate it really is not desirable that we should go over the whole policy of the relations between this country and the various native tribes, rights, and customs which the hon. Gentleman has gone into.


said he should not have said a word on the subject but for the noble Lord telling them that this expedition was going to be carried through until the Mullah was destroyed, and that was not a policy which ought to be introduced upon a Supplementary Estimate.


In any ease, I think the next item in this Vote presents an even more attractive opportunity of attacking the Government, and I would suggest that hon. Members opposite should allow this Vote to pass and turn their attention to pursuing higher game.


said that one of the pleas put forward by the noble Lord opposite was that trade would be spoiled unless this Mullah was put down. That was practically an admission that such wars were carried on for the purpose of extending trade, and while Great Britain might be improved by these expeditions not one penny of improvement would come to the country which he represented. For that reason he felt that it was the duty of his hon. friends on that

side of the House to protest against the large sums of money called for by the Government in the way of Supplementary Votes. It was a very remarkable thing that the Government, possessing so much brains and ability, had not been able to foresee more accurately their requirements and the amount of money they would require to carry them through. On this ground they fully deserved every opposition to the passing of those Votes. Any commercial establishment which went so far astray as the Government had done this year in estimating its requirements would soon find itself in the Bankruptcy Court.


rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 230; Noes, 117. (Division List No. 75.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin&Nairn
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Chapman, Edward Gore, Hon. F. S. Ormsby-
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Churchill, Winston Spencer Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Anson, Sir William Reynell Compton, Lord Alwyne Goulding, Edward Alfred
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) Greene, Sir E W (BrySEdm'nds
Aahmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cranborne, Viscount Grenfell, William Henry
Austin, Sir John Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gretton, John
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cubitt, Hon. Henry Groves, James Grimble
Baird, John George Alex. Cust, Henry John C. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Balcarres, Lord Dalkeith, Earl of Guthrie, Walter Murray
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hain, Edward
Banbury, Frederick George Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Hall, Edward Marshall
Hartley, George G. T. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Hambro, Charles Eric
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Dewar, T R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S.Geo. Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Dickson, Charles Scott Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd)
Bignold, Arthur Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cock field Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bill, Charles Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'uth
Blundell, Colonel Henry Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Bond, Edward Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edw. Hay, Hon. Claude George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)
Bowles, Capt. H. V. (Middlesex) Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N.'W.)
Brassey, Albert Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir. J (Manc'r Helder, Augustus
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Hogg, Lindsay
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Finch, George H. Hope, J. F. (Shef'ld, Brightside
Burdett-Coutts, W. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hoult, Joseph
Butcher, John George Fisher, William Hayes Howard, Capt J (Kent, Faversh.
Cautley, Henry Strother Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Button, John (Yorks, N.R.)
Cavendish, R.F. (N. Lancs.) Fletcher, Sir Henry Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies
Cavendish, V.C W (Derbyshire) Garfit, William Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gibbs, Hn A.G.H. (City of Lond. Johnston, William (Belfast)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
King, Sir Henry Seymour Mount, William Arthur Skewes Cox, Thomas
Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Law, Andrew Bonar Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Smith, H.C. (N'h'mb., Tyneside
Lawrence, William F. Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Lawson, John (Grant Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Spear, John Ward
Lee, Capt. A H (Hants. Fareham Newdigate, Francis Alexander Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Legge, Col. Hon. Hencage Nicholson, William Graham Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Nicol, Donald Ninian Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Stock, James Henry
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Stone, Sir Benjamin
Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S. Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Stroyan, John
Lowe, Francis William Pemberton, John S. G. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Pierpoint, Robert Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Platt-Higgins, Frederick Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft) Pretyman, Ernest George Talbot, Rt. Hon. JG(OxfdUniv
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Thornton, Percy M.
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Purvis, Robert Tollemache, Henry James
Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. Randles, John S. Tomlinson, Wm.Edw. Murray
Macdona, John dimming Rankin, Sir James Valentia, Viscount
Maconochie, A. W. Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne Walker, Col. William Hall
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb., W.) Reid, James (Greenock) Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.
M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Remnant, James Farquharson Warr, Augustus Frederick
Majendie, James A. H. Rentoul, James Alexander Webb, Col. William George
Malcolm, Ian Renwick, George Welby, Lt.-Col. A. CE(Taunton
Manners, Lord Cecil Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Martin, Richard Biddulph Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Willox, Sir John Archibald
Melville, Beresford Valentine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Milward, Col. Victor Royds, Clement Molyneux Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Molesworth, Sir Lewis Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Morgan, David J (Walthamst.) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E.J. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh. Seely, Charles Hilton(Lincoln)
Morrell, George Herbert Sharpe, William Edward T. TELLERS FOE THE AYES—Sir William Walroud and Mr. Anstruther.
Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew
Morrison, James Archibald Simeon, Sir Harrington
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Emmott, Alfred Lundon, W.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Farrell, James Patrick M'Crae, George
Allen, C. P. (Glouc, Stroud) Fenwick, Charles M'Dermott, Patrick
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Ffrench, Peter M'Kenna, Reginald
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Field, William M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Boland, John Fuller, J. M. F. Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Boyle, James Gilhooly, James Mooney, John J.
Brigg, John Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, Edw. J.C.(Devonport)
Broadhurst, Henry Hammond, John Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)
Burke, E. Haviland- Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W
Burns, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Burt, Thomas Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Holland, William O'Dowd, John
Causton, Richard Knight Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Cawley, Frederick Joicey, Sir James O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. O'Malley, William
Colville, John Jordan, Jeremiah O'Mara, James
Condon, Thomas Joseph Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Craig, Robert Hunter Kearley, Hudson E. O'Shee, James John
Crean, Eugene Kennedy, Patrick James Palmer, George W. (Reading)
Daly, James Kitson, Sir James Partington, Oswald
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lambert, George Reddy, M.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Langley, Batty Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Doogan, P. C. Leamy, Edmund Redmond, William (Clare)
Duffy, William J. Leigh, Sir Joseph Rigg, Richard
Duncan, James H. Levy, Maurice Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Dunn, Sir William Lewis, John Herbert Robson, William Snowdon
Elibank, Master of Lloyd-George, David Roche, John
Ellis, John Edward Lough, Thomas Roe, Sir Thomas
Schwann, Charles E. Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire Thompson, E. C. (Mouaghan, N. Wilson, F.W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Tomkinson, James Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Soares, Ernest J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wodehouse, Hn. Armine(Essex
Sullivan, Donal Tully, Jasper Woodhouse, Sir J T (HuddTsh'd
Taylor, Theodore Cooke Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Tennant, Harold John Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.
Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. Weir, James Galloway
Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings White, George (Norfolk)

Question put accordingly. "That the Item, Class 5, Vote 2, be reduced by £10,000, in respect of Somaliland (Grant-in Aid)."

The Committee divided:—Ayes. 112; Noes, 235. (Division List No.76.)

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Malley, William
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hayden, John Patrick O'Mara, James
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Beaumont, Went worth C. B. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Shee, James John
Boland, John Holland, William Henry Palmer, George Wm. (Reading)
Boyle, James Jameson, Major J. Eustace Reddy, M.
Brigg, John Joicey, Sir James Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Redmond, William (Clare)
Burke, E. Haviland- Jordan, Jeremiah Rigg, Richard
Burns, John Joyce, Michael Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.)
Burt, Thomas Kearley, Hudson E. Robson, William Snowdon
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kennedy, Patrick James Roche, John
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Kitson, Sir James Roe, Sir Thomas
Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Schwann, Charles E.
Claney, John Joseph Langley, Batty Soares, Ernest J.
Colville, John Leamy, Edmund Spencer, Rt. Hn. CH (Northants
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leigh, Sir Joseph Sullivan, Donal
Craig, Robert Hunter Levy, Maurice Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Crean, Eugene Lewis, John Herbert Tennant, Harold John
Daly, James Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.
Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lundon, W. Thomas, J A(Glamorgan,Gower
Davies,MVaughan-(Cardigan) M'Crae, George Tomkinson, James
Dewar, J. A. (Inverness-sh.) M'Dermott, Patrick Tully, Jasper
Donelan, Captain A. M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Doogan, P. C. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Duffy, William J. Mansfield, Horace Kendall Weir, James Calloway
Duncan, James H. Mooney, John J. White, George (Norfolk)
Ellis, John Edward Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Farrell, James Patrick Murphy, J. Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Fenwick, Charles Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Wodehouse, Hn. Armine (Essex
Field, William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Brampton Gurdon and Mr. Thomas Bayley.
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John
Hammond, John O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex.F. Arcbdale, Edward Mervyn Bain. Colonel James Robert
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Baird, John George Alexander
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Balcarres, Lord
Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc, Stroud Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Austin, Sir John Banbury, Frederick George
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bailey, James (Walworth) Bartley, George C. T.
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin Guthrie, Walter Murray 1 Orr Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Hain, Edward Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Hall, Edward Marshall Partington, Oswald
Bhownaggree, Sir M.' M. Hambro, Charles Eric Pemberton, John S. G.
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton, RtHn. LordG(M 'd'x Pierpoint, Robert
Bill, Charles Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nd'rry Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Pretyman, Ernest George
Bond, Edward Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hare, Thomas Leigh Purvis, Robert
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Randles, John S.
Brassey, Albert Haslam, Sir Alfreds.' Rankin, Sir James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hay, Hon. Claude George Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Heath, A. Howard (Hanley) Reid, James (Greenock)
Brown, George M.J(Edinburgh) Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W. Remnant, James Farquharson
Burdett-Gontts, W. Helder, Augustus Rentoul, James Alexander
Butcher, John George Hogg, Lindsay Renwick, George
Cautley, Henry Strother Hope, J. F. (Shef'ld, Brightside Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hoult, Joseph Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen
Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh) Howard, Capt J (Kent, Faversh. Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. L. Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Johnston, William (Belfast) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Chapman, Edward Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Churchill, Winston Spencer Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. Saunderson, Rt. Hn Col. Edw. J.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Law, Andrew Bonar Seeley, Charles Hilton (Lincoln
Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Lawrence, William F. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lawson, John Grant Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Cranborne, Viscount Lee, Capt A. H. (Hants, Fareh'm Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Cust, Henry John C. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, HC (North'mbTyneside
Dalkeith, Earl of Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S Smith, James Parker(Lanarks)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lowe, Francis William Spear, John Ward
Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk
Dewar, T.R.(T'rH'ml'ts,S.Geo Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Dickson, Charles Scott Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Stock, James Henry
Dimsdale, Sir J. Cockfield Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison Stone, Sir Benjamin
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Macdona, John Cumming Stroyan, John
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Maconochie, A. W. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dunn, Sir William M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Dyke Rt. Hn.Sir William Hart Majendie, James A. H. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'dUniv.
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Malcolm, Ian Thornton, Percy M.
Elibank, Master of Manners, Lord Cecil Tollemache, Henry James
Emmott, Alfred Martin, Richard Biddulph Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manchr) Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Valentia, Viscount
Fielden, Edw. Brocklehurst Melville, Beresford Valentine Walker, Col. William Hall
Finch, George H. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.
Finlay, Sir Rbt. Bannatyne Milward, Colonel Victor Warr, Augustus Frederick
Fisher, William Hayes Molesworth, Sir Lewis Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Webb, Col. William George
Fletcher, Sir Henry Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (T'nton
Garfit, William More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.
Gibbs, Hn A.G.H. (CityofLond. Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) William's, Col. R. (Dorset)
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Morrell, George Herbert Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin&Nairn Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Gore, Hon. F. S. Ormsby- Morrison, James Archibald Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Goschen, Hon. George J. Mount, William Arthur Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Goulding, Edward Alfred Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'ds Murray, Charles J. (Coventry Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Murray, Col, Wyndham (Bath)
Grenfell, William Henry Newdigate, Francis Alexander TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Gretton, John Nicholson, William Graham
Greville, Hon. Ronald Nicol, Donald Ninian
Groves, James Grimble O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Original Question again proposed.