HC Deb 11 March 1901 vol 90 cc1201-41

I beg now to move the Sessional Order which stands in my name. This is a Sessional Order which has been in force for many years in the House, and for the last six years it has been immediately passed without discussion or division. It is a necessary rule in cases in which special arrangements have to be made. The effect of it will be, not to increase the twenty-three days allotted to Supply, including Report of Supply, but to extend the length of time that will be available for the discussions by exempting them from the operation of the Twelve o'clock Rule. It has worked well in the past under different Administrations and under different conditions.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Proceedings on the Reports of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means and other Committees authorising the expenditure of public money may be entered upon at any hour though opposed, and shall not be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, except of Standing Order No. 5."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

*Mr. JOHN ELLIS (Nottinghamshire, Rushcliffe)

said that this was another of the rather numerous interferences by the Leader of the House with the Standing Orders. The House had only been sitting some twenty days, and there had already been five motions by the right hon. Gentleman interfering with or suspending the Standing Orders. He appreciated all that the right hon. Gentleman had said in regard to the motion having been passed more or less without discussion during the last six years. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the Twelve o' clock Rule, but really there was no such rule. He remembered very well when they were discussing the Standing Order that the right hon. the Member for Wolverhampton pointed out what would happen, namely, that the House would accept the Standing Order as meaning an adjournment at twelve o'clock, and that that would produce inconvenience so far as urgent business was concerned. The prediction of the right hon. Gentleman had been amply fulfilled. They had put into the hands of any one of the 670 Members the possibility and power of stopping all business after twelve o'clock. Of course the Government found that that was a state of things that they could not put up with for a moment; and the Amendment was to take away from the individual Member the power of stopping business at twelve o'clock. They could all understand that the right hon. Gentleman moved the Amendment in the interest of a certain class of business which must be got through by the 31st March. This was an altogether exceptional session. Everybody knew that finance would dominate this session, and possibly the next, to the exclusion of everything else. They would have to deal with the most extraordinary and unparalleled demands on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the purse of the taxpayer, and every other subject would practically be set aside. The Report of Supply was one of the opportunities of criticising the Administration.


This motion, if I might interrupt the hon. Member, is to increase and not to diminish the amount of time given by the Government.


said he had noticed there fell from the Chair the other afternoon at question time an intimation that certain matters ought to be dealt with in Supply rather than by question and answer. Now, by the motion it was suggested that these discussions should go on through the small hours of the morning. The light hon. Gentleman said he was increasing the time for' discussion, but if so he was doing so after midnight, and there were other ways of doing it without such a course.


I am afraid I did not make it quite clear when I spoke just now, but I think I can make it so. In the session there are only twenty-three days for Supply, including Report of Supply. Those twenty-three days, if you commence Supply at four o'clock, only contain eight hours each between that time and twelve o'clock. If you pass this rule the hours of those twenty-three days will be increased, which is a pure gain to the House for discussion and criticism of the Government.


said that when in Opposition the Leader of the House once declared this very motion to be a considerable interference with the ancient privileges of Supply, and so it was. He acknowledged the need of the resolution up to Easter, and with that object he moved an Amendment limiting the application of the motion "until Easter."

Dr. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)

formally seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed— After the first word 'That,' to insert the words 'until Easter.'"—(Mr. John Ellis.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'until Easter' be there inserted."

Mr. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet)

said he viewed with some jealousy any attempt to override the letter and spirit of what was known as the Twelve o'clock Rule, and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, owing to the force of circumstances, had been a very great offender in this respect. The right hon. Gentleman said that by the House sitting until two or three in the morning it would derive two or three hours benefit for the discussion of financial business.


No, no; the House, in the one case, will have twenty-three days for the discussion of Supply. If you do not pass this rule you will have no more, but if the rule is passed the hours of those days will be increased.


said the right hon. Gentleman appeared to think he was conferring a benefit on the House by allowing it to sit up to the small hours of the morning. He did not think so. His main object, however, in rising was to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance similar to that which had been extracted from him on former occasions, that Supply, excluding the Report, should should not be continued after twelve o'clock. What everyone desired was to make it clear that twelve o'clock was the hour when opposed business came to a conclusion in the House. Financial business ought not to be restricted, but at the same time it was not necessary that it should be contracted. Sitting to these late hours was contrary to the principles of conducting business in the House, and the constant suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule was really becoming a crying evil, and one which every Member ought to vote against.


strongly supported the Amendment. He assumed that the Civil List Committee would be one of the "other Committees authorising the expenditure of public money," and it would be an extraordinary thing if the House was to continue to discuss every matter arising out of that Committee after midnight. The Government ought to give an undertaking that all Civil List matters, which necessarily were of great importance, should not be brought under this rule. One reason which inclined him strongly to support the Amendment was that only three days was allowed for the discussion of Irish Supply, and, owing to the procedure last week, a great many Irish Estimates had not been discussed, and the only opportunity left was upon Report of Supply; but in the last two sessions not an Irish Member was allowed to open his mouth upon the subject. They were not allowed to discuss, for instance, the way in which the Royal Irish Constabulary was conducted. Let the House consider what it would mean if hon. Members were not allowed to discuss the Navy and the Army. Yet the Irish were not allowed to discuss the Royal Irish Constabulary, which was a sign of British rule in Ireland. In former times the Government always put down Report of Supply at a reasonable hour; the present resolution was an attempt on the part of the Government to com- mence discussion on Report of Supply after twelve o'clock. Members did not realise how many Irish items were undiscussed by this procedure. The result of the system was that owing to the way Irish Supply was put down, the whole twenty-three days was exhausted without any discussion taking place upon it, and the whole of Irish Supply upon Report stage was dealt with after twelve o'clock, which meant that Irish Members had no opportunity of criticising this expenditure. He complained of the way in which their opportunities were curtailed, and thought that if they were to be curtailed in the future as they had been in the past, and were being now, it would be cheaper and easier to exclude the Irish Members altogether. That was a motion he would heartily support, because it was a mockery to bring Members over from Ireland to discuss Irish matters, and give them no opportunity for doing so except at irregular times, in an irregular manner, which must give in the end irregular results. If the Government were not prepared to accept the Amendment, they should give some explanation for not doing so. In his opinion they had reached the limit of taxation, and the motion was to stifle discussion. The result was that the House was losing all control over money matters, and had to abide by the decision of Ministers. One occasionally noticed protests against monarchy, but monarchy was tolerable compared with oligarchy, and he did not know whether if there were a British Republic, with Lord Salisbury as its first President, the country would be much better off than under Edward VII.


, said that the right hon. Gentleman had presented the resolution to the House as a perfectly harmless, innocuous, and, indeed, profitable resolution. So far as the House of Commons was concerned, he had pointed out that there were only twenty-three days for Supply, including the Report stage, and that whatever on the last of those twenty-three days had not been discussed would be guillotined and taken as reported. That might be true, but there were two other matters connected with the resolution which the right hon. Gentleman had not touched upon. The resolution proposed to give to Parliament hours for discusson which Parliament had excluded as being improper. There was also a Committee authorising the expenditure of public money which had nothing to do with Supply—the Ways and Means Committee. The Civil List Committee was one of those which this session would be included in the term "other Committees authorising the expenditure of public money." Surely that was not a matter that should be treated in this way. He did not anticipate any difficulty in that matter, but, of coursel there were many stages to go through. First of all there was the Select Committee and then there was the Committee of the House. It was a matter of absolutely the first importance, and no opportunity ought to be lightly given away by the House of Commons for its discussion according to the ancient rules of the House. Not only had the Civil List to be fully and adequately discussed in the Committee of the whole House, but the Report should also be taken at an hour which would show proper respect for the Sovereign. The Government had already taken away the immrmorial right of moving Amendments on going into Committee of Ways and Means. Last Monday, when they were entering upon the course of shutting down one after another the safety valves of the House, he warned them that they would have an explosion, and on Tuesday the explosion came. The Government were now proposing to shut another safety valve. The Report of the Committee on Ways and Means would this year have an importance which it had never had before in that House. It was in the Committee of Ways and Means that the Budget would be moved. If ever there was an occasion on which the House ought still to jealously preserve the right of discussing financial questions surely it was this year. He did not know what new taxes—perhaps protective taxes, which were favoured by his right hon. friend the Member for Isle of Thanet—were to be proposed. He really thought the Leader of the House ought not to ask them to give up the opportunity for discussing at proper hours the Report of the Committee on Ways and Means. As to the Amendment before the House, he did not care twopence about it. It was not a question of applying the motion before or after Easter. He looked at this matter as it affected the facilities afforded to private and unofficial Members to do their duty to their constituents. He deeply deplored the successive shutting down of all these safety valves, and he regretted that the Government had found it necessary to propose this motion.

MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)

said the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had treated this motion as if it had nothing to do with anything but the Committee of Supply.


said the Amendment before the House was limited entirely to the operation of the Twelve o'clock Rule before Easter.


said he was pursuing the course pursued by the hon. Members for North Louth and King's Lynn.


said the hon. Gentleman was now discussing the main question. Of course it would be in order to discuss that afterwards, but he thought they had better dispose of the question before the House first.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 151; Noes, 254. (Division List No. 54.)

Allan, William (Gateshead) Grant, Corrie O'Brien, Patrick (Ki kenny)
Allen, Chas. P.(Glouc., Stroud) Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Ambrose, Robert Hammond, John O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Barlow, John Emmott Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Dowd, John
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Healy, Timothy Michael O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Helme, Norval Watson O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Black, Alexander William Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Malley, William
Blake, Edward Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) O'Mara, James
Boland, John Holland, William Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jacoby, James Alfred Palmer, Sir Charles M (Durham
Brand, Hon. Arthur G. Joicey, Sir James Palmer, George Wm. (Reading)
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) Perks, Robert William
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Philipps, John Wynford
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Jordan, Jeremiah Pickard, Benjamin
Burke, E. Haviland- Joyce, Michael Pirie, Duncan V.
Burns, John Kearley, Hudson E. Power, Patrick Joseph
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kennedy, Patrick James Price, Robert John
Caine, William Sproston Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth
Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Reckitt, Harold James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Lambert, George Reddy, M.
Carew, James Laurence Layland-Barratt, Francis Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Leigh, Sir Joseph Redmond, William (Clare)
Causton, Richard Knight Leng, Sir John Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Cogan, Denis J. Levy, Maurice Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Craig, Robert Hunter Lloyd-George, David Roche, John
Cremer, William Randal Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Crombie, John William MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Dalziel, James Henry Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) M'Dermott, Patrick Shipman, Dr John G.
Delany, William M'Kenna, Reginald Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Markham, Arthur Basil Soares, Ernest J.
Dully, William J. Mather, William Stevenson, Francis S.
Duncan, James H. Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William Strachey, Edward
Dunn, Sir William Mooney, John J. Sullivan, Donal
Edwards, Frank Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tennant, Harold John
Elibank, Master of Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Emmott, Alfred Moulton, John Fletcher Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstn'e Murphy, J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Farrell, James Patrick Nannetti, Joseph P. Tally, Jasper
Fenwick, Charles Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. Wallace, Robert
Flynn, James Christopher Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Furness, Sir Christopher O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Md Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Weir, James Galloway Wilson, John (Glasgow) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
White, Luke (York, E. R.) Wodehouse, Hon. A. (Essex) Mr. John Ellis and Dr. Farquharson.
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth Yoxall, James Henry
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Dickson, Charles Scott Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Dimsdale, Sir J. Cockfield Kimber, Henry
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph King, Sir Henry Seymour
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D. Knowles, Lees
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Dorington, Sir John Edward Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawson, John Grant
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lee, Capt A H. (Hants. Fareham
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bailey, James (Walworth) Dyke, Rt. Hon Sir William Hart Leigh-Bennett, Henry Carrie
Bain, Colonel James Robert Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Leighton, Stanley
Baird, John Geo. Alexander Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Baldwin, Alfred Fardell, Sir T. George Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christch'h) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r Lowe, Francis William
Banbury, Frederick George Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Fisher, William Haves Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmith)
Hartley, George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Macdona, John Cumming
Beach, Rt. Hon. W. W. B. (Hants Elannery, Sir Fortescue Maconochie, A. W.
Beckett, Ernest William Fletcher, Sir Henry M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Forster, Henry William M'Arthur, William (Cornwall
Bigwood, James Garfit, William M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Blundell, Col. Henry Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond. Majendie, James A. H.
Bond, Edward Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) Malcolm, Ian
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert J. Manners, Lord Cecil
Boulnois, Edmund Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn Maple, Sir John Blundell
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Gordon, Maj. E.-(T'r Hamlets) Martin, Richard Biddulph
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir john Eldon Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Goulding, Edward Alfred Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Brookfield, Col. Montagu Graham, Henry Robert Melville, Beresford Valentine
Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Middlemore, John Throgmort'n
Bull, William James Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds Milward, Colonel Victor
Bullard, Sir Harry Gretton, John Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Greville, Hon. Ronald Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Gunter, Colonel Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Guthrie, Walter Murray Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hain, Edward More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hall, Edward Marshall Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Morrison, James Archibald
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Chapman, Edward Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nderry Mount, William Arthur
Charrington, Spencer Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Muntz, Philip A.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Coddington, Sir William Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Coghill, Douglas Harry Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Myers, William Henry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Haslett, Sir James Horner Nicholson, William Graham
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hay, Hon. Claude George Nicol, Donald Ninian
Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampsd. Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hobhouse, Hy. (Somerset, E.) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) Hogg, Lindsay Parker, Gilbert
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Hornby, Sir William Henry Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert W.
Cranborne, Viscount Horner, Frederick William Pemberton, John S. G.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Penn, John
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hoult, Joseph Pilkington, Richard
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Howard, J. (Mid., Tottenham) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil Plummer, Walter R.
Cast, Henry John C. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Jessel, Cap. Herbert Merton Pretyman, Ernest George
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Johnston, William (Belfast) Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward
Dewar, T. R. (T'r H'mlets S. Geo. Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Purvis, Robert
Pym, C. Guy Sharpe, William Edward T. Valentia, Viscount
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Simeon, Sir Harrington Wanklyn, James Leslie
Renshaw, Charles Bine Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.
Rentoul, James Alexander Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Wason, John C. (Orkney)
Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. Webb, Colonel William George
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand Welby, Lt. -Col. ACE (Taunton
Ropner, Colonel Robert Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne
Round, James Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wills, Sir Frederick
Royds, Clement Molyneux Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.
Russell, T. W. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni. Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Thorburn, Sir Walter
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. Thornton, Percy M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln Tritton, Charles Ernest
Seton-Karr, Henry Tufnell, Col. Edward

said the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely inadequate. It had been proved to demonstration that twenty-three days were absolutely inadequate for the orderly discussion of these matters, and as there was not time to discuss them in that period, they were told that they must find hours after midnight to carry on the business. They had to remember that the Votes in Supply this session would probably be of unexampled extent, and in many respects would be special and peculiar. They had to remember that the discussion on the Report was of a very important character. It represented the sober second thought of the House. It was unfortunate in such a session that a motion should be proposed requiring that the discussion should take place at untimely and unseemly hours, for that was practically what it meant. It was a proposal that the discussion should take place at a time when it was practically impossible that it could be effective. The situation of the country with reference to Ways and Means was of the most serious character. They knew the extent of the expenditure, but they did not know in the slightest degree the methods by which it was to be met, and to say beforehand that the discussion on the Report of the Committee on Ways and Means was to be taken at two, three, or four in the morning, was much more serious this session than it would be when ordinary Budgets were presented.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

said he was opposed entirely to the new rule. If it was to be pressed it was desir- able that it should, to a certain extent be amended. In 1837, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day moved the appointment of a Committee on the Civil List, he stated to the House what the proposals of the Government would be. He contended that the House would not have a full opportunity of discussing the Bill if they were obliged to take it at two or three o'clock in the morning, as business was done in a very perfunctory fashion at that hour. He therefore moved to omit the words "and of other Committees authorising the expenditure of public money."

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

in seconding the Amendment considered that in a session which was to be practically a financial session, the opportunities of criticising the expenditure of public money, instead of being limited should be increased. There were to be a war bill of practically £90,000,000, an enormous increase in the normal expenditure upon the Army, a considerable increase of the expenditure upon the Navy, and a Budget Bill almost unparalleled in the financial history of the country. Two things characterised the management of public affairs by the present Government: firstly, the enormous increase in public expenditure; and, secondly, the greatly diminished opportunities for discussing that expenditure. Hardly a session had passed since their accession to office but the First Lord had set up some new precedent for limiting discussion; and no Leader had ever dared so much to crib, cabin, and confine the House of Commons in the exercise of its primary function and duty. It was absurd to say that matters could be discussed after 12 o'clock. Such discussion was really no discussion at all, as it was absolutely ineffective in calling public attention to the questions considered. The First Lord was nullifying the effect of his favourite weapon, as on the one hand he applied the closure, and on the other he advised the House to discuss questions after 12 o'clock. After midnight the House was not in full command of its temper or faculties, and to press important business after that hour was simply to provoke a repetition of the scenes recently experienced. The First Lord did not gain wisdom from experience, but was insisting on perpetuating that state of things which had been condemned by one of the most disgraceful scenes the House of Commons or any other House had ever witnessed.

Amendment proposed— In line 3, to leave out the words 'and other Committees authorising the expenditure of public money.'" (Mr. Labouchere.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."


The hon. Member has ranged over a great variety of topics, and concluded with some observations with regard to the curtailment of discussion on expenditure. I do not know what discussion of expenditure the hon. Gentleman had in his mind when he used that argument. I have already pointed out to the House that so far as the ordinary opportunities of discussing expenditure are concerned the rule as it stands is in addition to those advantages, and not in limitation of them. The hon. Gentleman's observation therefore seemed to be singularly wide of the mark. Hut all that is apart from the criticism of the hon. Member for South Longford and that of the hon. Member who moved the Amendment. Those hon. Members were not dealing with criticism of Supply or on Report of Supply. The hon. Member for South Longford was concerned as to the Report stage generally of all Money Bills, and the hon. Member for Northampton was distinctly concerned, as I understood him, about the Civil List. What invasion of the privileges of Members does this rule carry with it? We are not discussing Committee of Supply; we are taking those Committees in which a Bill is introduced. Take the Civil List. What opportunities will the House have with or without this Amendment of discussing the Civil List? The Bill will have to be introduced in a Money Committee; that Committee will no doubt stand first Order of the Day, and will be open to the full discussion which such a position gives. The Report of that Money Committee may be taken after twelve o'clock, and my hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn appeared to think that that was an invasion of the ancient privileges and practice of this House. But under the old conditions everything could be discussed after twelve o'clock, and so far as this motion of mine has any effect at all on the procedure of the House it is reverting to the ancient practice of discussing the Report stage of these Committees after twelve o'clock.


There was no closure then.


What relation has that to my argument? My argument is that this Amendment of mine, instead of diminishing opportunities of discussion, is restoring to the House the old opportunities of which I am accused of robbing them. The Budget has been referred to. The Budget will be introduced in Committee of Ways and Means. It will be discussed in Committee of Ways and Means, then on the Report of that Committee, then on the Second Reading of the Budget Bill, then in Committee, then, if there is any alteration, on Report, and finally on Third Reading. There are thus five stages upon which the Budget can be discussed, and all the present resolution does is to say that one of those stages may be taken after twelve o'clock. This is the invasion of ancient privileges which has provoked the philippics of the hon. Gentleman opposite! It appears to me that the course we are taking is one eminently for the convenience of the House, and I trust it will, without further discussion, be agreed to.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

believed the practical effect of the resolution would be to repeal the Twelve o'clock Rule. Experience had proved that all work done after midnight was practically useless. The provincial, and especially the Irish press, could have no report of the proceedings, and millions of money might be voted without the public knowledge. If any encouragement were needed to resist the motion it was supplied by the Vote of £17,000,000 which was closured a few nights previously without anything like adequate discussion. In the present session, above all others, opportunities for full discussion were needed, but no Minister had ever done more to limit those opportunities or to curtail the liberties of debate than the right hon. Gentleman the present Leader of the House.

MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)

said he should always support the rights of private Members, but it was a pity to fight over a matter which was really in no way a deprivation. It was absurd to talk about the loss of ancient privileges. When he first entered the House the discussion on Supply and Report was practically all carried on after twelve o'clock, whereas now there were twenty-three days for Supply, and the Estimates had never been discussed so well as since the introduction of the present system. He thought it was a tactical mistake to closure the Vote on Account on the preceding Tuesday, but the fact remained that if the Government had allowed another night to the discussion it would simply have meant a day less for the remaining Estimates, so that it was really to the advantage, rather than the reverse, of private Members. On occasions there was an advantage in being able to speak on Votes of Supply after twelve o'clock, and without doubt such a power as this did enable the Government to carry on its business in the face of determined opposition which sometimes existed.


could not follow the argument that this resolution would confer extra time for discussing Supply. If the resolution was not passed the Report of Supply would have to be dealt with before twelve o'clock, and consequently in Government time.


It would be closured.


would much rather have the closure and no discussion than the farce of a discussion after twelve o'clock. It was amazing to hear the First Lord talking as if he would like to go back to the ancient times before the Twelve o'clock Rule was passed. The very worst thing the House could do would be to encourage such a course in any but the most exceptional circumstances. If in such a session as the present this resolution was to be passed, why did not the right hon. Gentleman have the courage of what appeared to be his opinion, and suspend the Twelve o'clock Rule altogether? It was no good the House deluding itself with the idea that it was sitting under the Twelve o'clock Rule if day after day it had to look at its Order Paper to see whether there was any Report of Supply to be taken which might occupy several hours after midnight. Seeing that only one item of the Vote on Account closured a few nights before had been discussed, it was almost certain there would be a very late, if not an all-night, sitting on the Report stage of that Vote. The right hon. Gentleman was really working the House a little too far. A most important discussion with regard to the Civil List might take place after midnight. There would be a Select Committee; the Select Committee would make a Report; in order to carry out that Report a Bill would be required; that Bill could only be brought before the House on a resolution in Committee of Ways and Means; and the Report on that would come after twelve o'clock. In view of the character of the business before the House this session, and the enormous demands already made, he considered a case had not been made out for the resolution.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

rather envied the light heart with which the Leader of the House calmly proposed that they should go back to the struggles and hours which obtained in the sessions between 1880 and 1887, but if those conditions were to be renewed he believed that many Members would before long find the preservation of their health to be inconsistent with their remaining Members of the House. If this rule was passed, Members would begin seriously to discuss between midnight and two or three o'clock in the morning questions they had been unable to debate at other periods of the session, with the result that Ministers and officials of the House, and perhaps, under existing circumstances, the police also, would be compelled once more to return to the bad habits which he thought the House had given up for ever. It was impossible that complicated diplomacy and intricate negotiation could be satisfactorily carried on by Ministers who came to their offices jaded and weary after a late sitting in the House. The right hon. Gentleman was a strong supporter of the principles of the Monarchy, but could anything be more calculated to prejudice the repute of the Monarchy in this country than that a proposal with regard to the revenues of the Crown should be brought forward in the small hours of the morning, when there was no reasonable opportunity for discussing

the question, or of having the debates reported in the press? The hon. Member strongly protested against the resolution, and warned the House that, if carried, it would mean a return to the bad old time when Members considered themselves very lucky if they were able to get to bed between four and five o'clock in the morning.

MR. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.)

said that the First Lord of the Treasury stated that his motion would give them additional time, but it would be illegitimate time, when their minds and bodies were jaded. He protested against being compelled to sit in the House up to such untimely hours of the morning. The ancient usage to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred was repealed on account of its oppressiveness, and now the First Lord of the Treasury wished to retain not only this ancient usage but the closure as well.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 253; Noes. 161. (Division List No. 55.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Dinning Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart
Arkwright, John Stanhope Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chapman, Edward Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Charrington, Spencer Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r
Bailey, James (Walworth) Churchill, Winston Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bain, Col. James Robert Clare, Octavius Leigh Fisher, William Hayes
Baird, John George Alexander Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Fison, Frederick William
Balcarres, Lord Coghill, Douglas Harry FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Baldwin, Alfred Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J (Manch'r Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse F'lannery, Sir Fortescue
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Fletcher, Sir Henry
Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christchch Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Forster, Henry William
Banbury, Frederick George Compton, Lord Alwyne Garfit, William
Bartley, George C. T. Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond-
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)
Beach, Rt. Hon. W W. B. (Hants Cranborne, Viscount Gordon, Maj. E.-(T'r Hamlets)
Beckett, Ernest William Cripps, Charles Alfred Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bigwood, James Cubitt, Hon. Henry Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry
Blundell, Col. Henry Cust, Henry John C. Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds
Bond, Edward Dalrymple, Sir Charles Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Gretton, John
Boulnois, Edmund Dewar, T. R (T'r H'mlets, S Geo. Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bowles, Capt H. F. (Middlesex) Dickinson, Robert Edmond Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dickson, Charles Scott Gunter, Colonel
Brookfield, Col. Montagu Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Guthrie, Walter Murray
Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire) Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C. Hain, Edward
Bull, William James Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hall, Edward Marshall
Bullard, Sir Harry Dixon-Hartland. Sir Fred. D. Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lancs.) Dorington, Sir John I'd ward Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfr'd Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Round, James
Harris, F Leverton (Tynemouth Melville, Beresford Valentine Royds, Clement Molyneux
Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Russell, T. W.
Haslett, Sir James Horner Middlemore, J'hn Throgmorton Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Hay, Hon. Claude George Milton, Viscount Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotte Milward, Colonel Victor Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Higginbottom, S. W. Molesworth, Sir Lewis Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstd) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln)
Hogg, Lindsay Moore, William (Antrim. N.) Seton-Karr, Henry
Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Hornby, Sir William Henry Morrell, George Herbert Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Hoult, Joseph Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Morrison, James Archibald Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Jackson, Rt. Hon. Win. Lawies Mount, William Arthur Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Muntz, Philip A. Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Johnston, William (Belfast) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stroyan, John
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Myers, William Henry Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Nicholson, William Graham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) Nicol, Donald Ninian Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Oxf'd Univ.
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Thorburn, Sir Walter
King, Sir Henry Seymour Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Thornton, Percy M.
Knowles, Lees Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win. Parker, Gilbert Tufnell, Col. Edward
Law, Andrew Bonar Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington Valentia, Viscount
Lawson, John Grant Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert W. Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Lee, Capt. A H (Hants, Fareham Pemberton, John S. G. Wanklyn, James Leslie
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Penn, John Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Pilkington, Richard Warr, Augustus Frederick
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Plummer, Walter R. Webb, Colonel William George
Long, Rt Hon Walter (Bristol, S) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Welby, Lt. Col. A C E (Taunton
Lowe, Francis William Pretyman, Ernest George Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Pryce-Jones, Lieut.-Col. Edw. Whiteley, H (Asht'n und. Lyne
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Purvis, Robert Wills, Sir F'rederick
Lyttleton, Hon. Alfred Pym, C. Guy Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Macdona, John dimming Remnant, James Farquharson Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Maconochie, A. W. Renshaw, Charles Bine Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Rentoul, James Alexander Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Majendie, James A. H. Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Malcolm, Ian Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Manners, Lord Cecil Rolleston, Sir John F. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Maple, Sir John Blundell Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Sir William Walrond and
Martin, Richard Biddulph Ropner, Colonel Robert Mr. Anstruther.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Caine, William Sproston Emmott, Alfred
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud Caldwell, James Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone
Ambrose, Robert Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Farquharson, Dr. Robert
Ashton, Thomas Gair Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Farrell, James Patrick
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Carew, James Laurence Fenwick, Charles
Atherley-Jones, L. Causton, Richard Knight Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith
Barlow, John Emmott Cogan, Denis J. Ffrench, Peter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Craig, Robert Hunter Flynn, James Christopher
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Cremer, William Randal Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.
Bell, Richard Crombie, John William Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Black, Alexander William Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Furness, Sir Christopher
Blake, Edward Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert Jn.
Boland, John Delany, William Goddard, Daniel Ford
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Dewar John A. (Inverness-sh.) Grant, Corrie
Brand, Hon. Arthur G. Dilke, lit. Hon. Sir Charles Haldane, Richard Burdon
Broadhnrst, Henry Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Hammond, John
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Duffy, William J. Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Duncan, James H. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Dunn, Sir William Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Burke, E. Haviland- Edwards, Frank Hayden, John Patrick
Burns, John Elibank, Master of Healy, Timothy Michael
Buxton, Sydney Charles Ellis, John Edward Helme, Norval Watson
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Nannetti, Joseph P. Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Holland, William Henry Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Jacoby, James Alfred Norman, Henry Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)
Joicey, Sir James Norton, Capt. Cecil William Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid Soares, Ernest J.
Jordan, Jeremiah O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northn'ts.
Joyce, Michael O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Stevenson, Francis S.
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Strachey, Edward
Kennedy, Patrick James O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Sullivan, Donal
Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Tennant, Harold John
Layland-Barratt, Francis O'Dowd, John Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Leigh, Sir Joseph O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Leng, Sir John O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r
Levy, Maurice O'Malley, William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lewis, John Herbert O'Mara, James Tully, Jasper
Lloyd-George, David O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wallace, Robert
Lough, Thomas Palmer, George Wm. (Reading) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) Perks, Robert William Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Philipps, John Wynford Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Pickford, Benjamin Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) Pirie, Duncan V. Weir, James Galloway
M'Dermott, Patrick Power, Patrick Joseph White, Luke (York, E. R.)
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Price, Robert John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Markham, Arthur Basil Reckitt, Harold James Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Mather, William Reddy, M. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Mellor, Kt. Hon. John Wm. Redmond, John E (Waterford) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Mooney, John J. Redmond, William (Clare) Yoxall, James Henry
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfr.
Morton, Ed. J. C. (Devonport) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Moulton, John Fletcher Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Mr. Labouchere and Mr. Dalziel.
Murphy, J. Roche, John

MR. TULLY (Leitrim, S.) moved an Amendment to leave out the Report of Supply of 5th March from the operation of the motion before the House. He believed he was correct in stating that there was no precedent for the moving of the closure upon a Vote amounting to £17,000,000 after one night's debate.


Order, order! The hon. Member cannot discuss at this point the application of the closure.


said lie was striving to give his reasons, and one was that this Vote of £17,000,000—


Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to go into that question.


said they wished to discuss the Report of Supply of the 5th of March at a reasonable hour, so that they could have a full and frank discussion upon all the different items. He thought that under the circumstances the First Lord of the Treasury might agree to exempt this particular Vote. He thought it was entirely unprecedented to closure a Vote on Account of £17,000,000—


Order, order! The hon. Member must not enter upon that subject.


We cannot hear your words, Mr. Speaker, owing to the disorder on the other side.

Amendment proposed— In line 3, to insert, after the word 'Money,' the words 'excepting the Report of Supply of 5th March.'"(Mr. Tully.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

I have generally voted with the Government on this rule in reference to Report of Supply and Report of Ways and Means. I voted against them on the last motion. That was a separate matter, and it was only used in the year 1896. I thought there was a great deal of force in the objection taken to the Civil List. I think what the hon. Member has just asked for might reasonably be granted. I think that one night's discussion on such a large matter, involving so much money and so many subjects as that Vote of Account, is not sufficient. It is not a question of an ordinary Vote in Supply, and it is rather misleading to call it a Vote in Supply. The right hon. Gentleman has said that, after all, if there is to be another day granted to this Vote it must come out of the private Members' time. That is quite true, but I think it is a very reasonable solution, and it is not asking the Government to sacrifice any Government time, to grant what the hon. Member has asked for. It would come out of the time allotted to Supply, and I think it would be a good way of dealing with this question.


I fear there is still a certain amount of misconception in the House in regard to this matter. I have already endeavoured to remove it, but once again I will try to explain. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said he did so on the ground that two millions of the amount of the Vote on Account was for Irish purposes in which Irish Members were interested, which he thought should be discussed, and he thought the proper place to discuss it was on the Vote on Account. But the right hon. Gentleman, on general grounds, expressed an opinion that more time should be given to the Vote on Account. So far as the Government are concerned, it matters not a farthing whether the whole of the twenty-three days are devoted to discussion of Estimates in the form of Votes on Account or in the specific form of separate Votes. It is a more convenient proceeding to discuss Votes by arrangement when you know what the Votes are, than in the loose and uncertain fashion which is inevitable if they are discussed on the Vote on Account. I quite grant that hon. Gentlemen opposite have a natural and legitimate desire to discuss both the Irish Local Government Board and the Irish Constabulary Votes, but the only question is whether it would not be more convenient to discuss them on the Irish Estimates on a day fixed beforehand when these Votes would be put down first. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that his legitimate desire to discuss these Votes might not be fulfilled if I followed the course he suggests; for, suppose the Report of the Vote on Account were put down as the first Order next Friday, those Votes might never be reached. It is in the power of the Government to print the Votes in what order they like—following a practice which, I admit, is unusual, but which is I think, convenient, and which was adopted to facilitate discussion—and therefore I made an appeal, through the proper channel, to the Leader of the Opposition to know what Votes he desired to come on first.


Did the right hon. Gentleman make any communication to the Irish party in settling the order of the Votes?


No, Sir; I did not.


The right hon. Gentleman has boasted over and over again, if I may use the expression, that in settling the order of Votes he has taken care to consult the convenience of Members in all quarters of the House; and it has been the practice to consult the representatives of the Irish party. But on this occasion he neglected to do so.


In deciding in what order the Votes on the Irish Estimates should come up on the day fixed for these Estimates, the wishes of the Irish Members are supreme. I have always admitted that; but in regard to the Vote on Account, the Government have to consider the wishes of the Opposition as a whole, and not a particular section of it. Now, what I come to is this: having, to the best of my ability, put down the Votes in the order which I thought was most convenient, it is impossible that that order can be altered on the Report stage. If the Vote on Account was put down first on Friday night, it would not prevent any Member of the House from raising points on an earlier Vote than those in which the hon. Gentleman is interested; and we should be as far off from the Votes for the Irish Local Government Board and the Irish Constabulary as on Tuesday last. Therefore, if it were the view of the Opposition that more time should be given to the Irish Local Government Board Vote at the expense of other Votes, the Government are quite ready to accede to that wish. We have no desire to burke discussion on that Vote or any other Vote; but the convenient method for arriving at it, is not to put down the Vote on Account, but to fix a day convenient to the Irish Members for the discussion of the Irish Estimates. I regard it as almost an essential part of the new Supply rule that the greater part of the time should be devoted to specific Votes and the smallest portion of time to vague discussions of Votes on Account. If the Opposition prefer a broad, loose, and mixed discussion to precise, specific, and fixed discussion, I think they are wrong; but it is not for the Government to complain, as the total amount of time taken from the Government resources is not increased. But I do beg hon. Gentlemen to understand, if they want the Estimates to be properly discussed, that the proper way to arrive at it is not by promiscuous debate on Votes on Account, but by insisting on specific Votes being brought forward on Fridays. I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite, if they are going to press mo to give another of the twenty-three days for Supply to the Vote on Account, I shall accede to the request, but I would rather that they would allow us, as soon as possible, to go into the orderly, businesslike, and pre-arranged debates which are only possible when we take the Votes in their order.


said the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Opposition, but he seemed to have forgotten that there was only one Opposition now—the Irish Opposition; at least, since the Liberal party had chosen to tread "the Primrose path of dalliance" marked out for it by Lord Rosebery. He would remind the right hon. Gentleman that he had now successfully demonstrated that there should be no discussion on the Vote on Account. His argument had gone the full length. He had proved satisfactorily to Irish Members that they should never open their mouths on Votes on Account. The right hon. Gentleman, of course, now suggested topics for debate interesting to the party of Lord Rosebery; and therefore it was inevitable that no Irish question could ever be considered on Votes on Account. It was due to his colleagues for him to say that their demand for discussion was reasonable in view of the decision recently given by the Irish Court of Appeal in regard to the action of the Local Government Board—a decision which affected not merely their Imperial relations with Ireland as taxpayers, but the local relations as ratepayers. That decision involved tens of thousands of pounds to the county councils and local bodies, and the Irish Members had been expecting some discussion upon it, though evidently that was not to be allowed. Why, therefore, were the Irish Members brought here at all, if they were never to be allowed to say a word on the expenditure of seventeen millions of money? He did not suppose that the right hon. Gentleman took so much interest in Irish subjects as he did when he occupied an Irish office, but he was sure if the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the intense interest which centred round the dispute between the Local Government Board and the county and district councils, some evening would be given to the discussion of it. The right hon. Gentleman must recollect that new orders of the Local Government Board were being moulded at this moment. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman as an escape out of the difficulty that there should be some under standing in the House that he should put down Report of Supply some evening with a view to this Irish subject being thoroughly threshed out. The matter could be easily arranged by Mr. Speaker calling first on some Irish Member.


I do not think it would he really practicable to give another night to the Vote on Account, unless there was some general arrangement as to the Supplementary Votes to be taken before Easter. As it is, I am afraid that, in order to comply with the law, late nights and Saturday sittings will be necessary up to 31st March. I do not see how the views of the hon. Gentlemen opposite can be met unless all other Members waive all questions that arise on the Vote on Account before the Irish Votes; in the second place, unless they give the Government the remaining Supplementary Estimates, so that we may meet the law; and in the third place, unless they submit to one of the twenty-two remaining days being taken away in order to have the desired discussion on the Vote on Account. If, on the contrary, they are not prepared to give all these three things, I venture to suggest that, if this be a question of such immediate pressure, the best plan would be to ask me to give them the first free Friday after we have complied with the law. I want to give them every facility they can legitimately claim.

MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

said that the right hon. Gentleman was constantly saying he would oblige those on that side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman did not do justice to their feelings. They wanted something more than time; they wanted satisfaction. He wanted to support the Amendment in order to get further consideration for the Report of Supply of March 5th. They were dealing on Tuesday last with a concrete subject full of details, which was very pressing, especially in London; but the House of Commons had no attention whatever paid to it from, and certainly no satisfactory answer given by, the Government in regard to that subject. If the right hon. Gentleman conceded a short time to the House of Commons, it might possibly do; but if he would listen to nothing, the discussion would not be of a very productive character. He saw the Vice-President present. That right hon. Gentleman told them the other night, and he had repeated it since, that he could do nothing on this educational matter. What they wanted was that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, who could do something, should come there; and then the matter could be disposed of very quickly. If they were met in a spirit of consideration or compromise in regard to some administrative details which they thought very pressing, then the business of the House; could go on.


said that the claim his friends had made was reasonable, and the right hon. Gentleman should find a way out of the difficulty. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was under a, misapprehension as to what was, really wanted. He suggested to the right hon. Gentleman not that one of the allotted Irish days should be devoted to discussing Report of Supply, but that on some day in the near future two or three hours before midnight should be devoted to it. In that way the right hon. Gentleman would be making what was after all a very small concession, but one which would go a considerable way to meet the difficulty in which they were placed. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to concede this reasonable claim, and rob them, if he might put it in that way, to some extent of a grievance.


My objection to the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman is that it is quite impossible for me to bind the House, nor do I see how it is possible to make a time arrangement unless there is a consensus of opinion that the matter to be discussed is one which the House desires to hear. [Sir E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT was understood to dissent.] Of course my hon. friend the Member for Ecclesall would have something to say on foreign affairs! If I were to make some concession to the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, he might make some concession to me in regard to time.


said he had no power to give any such undertaking. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of a mutual compromise. He was to give the Irish Members two hours, and they were to give him all the time necessary to get him out of the difficulty caused by his calling Parliament too late.

MR. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.)

observed that the main difficulty in carrying out the very reasonable suggestion of the hon. Member for Waterford was that no security had been devised, either by arrangement or otherwise, that the Irish Votes would be taken first.

MR. J. P. FARRELL (Longford, N.)

said he desired to support the Amendment because in his opinion it was undoubtedly the fault of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury that the House found itself in its present position. If the right hon. Gentleman was so desirous of concluding the financial business in the legal time. he should have called Parliament together a month earlier than he did. That the Government found itself in a difficulty was due entirely to the action of the right hon. Gentleman, not only for not calling Parliament together earlier, but also through closuring the debate in the previous week, by which means many matters were entirely cut out from discussion. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman simply amounted to this, that if the Irish Members desired to discuss Votes on Account, they would have to discuss them during an all-night sitting, merely because the Government had not taken proper precautions to ensure facilities being given to Parliament to discuss the Votes. Such a state of things, if carried to its logical conclusion, was bound to affect the health of Members and render them physically unable to carry on the work of the House. It was a, physical impossibility to continue to sit night after night without the health of Members being affected. It appeared to him that the House sat, not for the accommodation of humble private Members, but for the wealthy classes—


Order, order! The hon. Member is travelling into matters unconnected with the question. The question is whether the words "except Report of Supply of 5th March" shall be added.


I have exhausted my ingenuity in finding methods by which we can both keep the law and meet the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite. But I now make this suggestion that after this rule has been passed I shall not put down the Vote on Account after twelve o'clock until I am absolutely driven to it by the arrival of the 25th March. I will put it off and take the Report of Supply after twelve o'clock, and then I will put it down, if I can, at a convenient hour.


said that, in the absence of the Leader of the Irish party, he could not reply to the offer of the right hon. Gentleman, but he thought every facility should be given for the discussion of the Votes affecting Ireland, which were of the greatest importance to the country, affecting as they did over a million of money. The right hon. Gentleman had already encroached far too much on the time that used to be given to Irish Supply, and although the Irish Members were only a small minority in the House, they had exercised fully and fairly the duties of opposition, they had taken every opportunity of pressing upon the Government important reforms, and they ought to have a fair opportunity of ventilating the grievances under which their country suffered. If such opportunity were given to them he had no doubt whatever they would be able to bring home to the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the necessity for important reforms in the administration of the country from which they came. Upon the Vote for the Local Government Board, for instance, they would be able to bring home the absolute despotism with which that bureaucratic body governed Ireland; the Public Works Office would give an opportunity to discuss another office of the same kind, and there were many other important matters. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept in its entirety the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Leitrim. It was not a great concession to make, seeing that there were still Parliamentary days to discuss Supply, that there was no great legislative proposal before the House, and no very important matter to be discussed. He could not understand under the circumstances why the right hon. Gentleman had curtailed the time of the House, nor could he see any reason why he should not accept the Amendment.


rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."


Oh, oh—gag at once.


Order, order! If I knew who the hon. Member was who called out "gag" I should certainly take notice of his conduct.

*SIR E. ASHMEAD BARTLETT (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

said he desired to call the attention of the House for one moment to the very great danger of its forgetting what Votes on Account really were. They embraced all the subjects in the Estimates for the whole session—every subject, English, Irish, Scotch, home, foreign, and colonial. It had been the practice to have what the First Lord of the Treasury had, in his opinion, unfortunately called promiscuous discussions. The discussion was varied, necessarily, because the subjects were varied and promiscuous. He was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman decline to be a party to binding the House to an isolated discussion upon one subject, upon a Vote on Account. With all due respect to hon. Gentlemen who represented Ireland, and who no doubt desired earnestly to discuss Irish subjects, there wore other subjects which ought to be discussed. There were many Members in the House who felt that discussion was more necessary on foreign affairs—on Chinese affairs—than upon Irish affairs. He also desired to call attention to the unfortunate result of what happened the other night when one Vote only was put down and the discussion of it arranged for the whole evening.


Nobody arranged that. What I did arrange was what Vote should be taken first.


said when the Educational Vote was put down first, and a reduction moved, it was the general scheme that it should be dis-

cussed all the evening. That proceeding resulted in the absolute curtailment of discussion on any other business whatever. He did not accuse the right hon. Gentleman of doing this deliberately, but he asked him to consider how easy it would be for a Government, when they found a subject which they, in their judgment, considered a dangerous subject for discussion, to arrange with the Opposition to put down a Vote for discussion upon some other subject in which great interest was taken by the House, and, by encouraging that discussion to continue, shut out entirely the subject which they wished to avoid. He protested against that sort of procedure, and he hoped that the Irish Members would not allow the Irish Estimates to be made a means of preventing discussion upon all other subjects. He should certainly vote for the Amendment.

MR. POWER (Waterford, E.)

said that the First Lord of the Treasury had spoken of the necessity for economising the time of the House. In his view the management of affairs by the right hon. Gentleman had consumed more time than anything else. The very motion the right hon. Gentleman now made was a condemnation of these big Supplementary Votes.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 189. (Division List No. 56.)

Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Ambrose, Robert Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Holland, William Henry
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Delany, William Jones, David B. (Swansea)
Atherley-Jones, L. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jordan, Jeremiah
Barlow, John Emmott Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Joyce, Michael
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Duffy, William J. Kennedy, Patrick James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Dunn, Sir William Kinloch, Sir John George S.
Bell, Richard Ellis, John Edward Layland-Barratt, Francis
Black, Alexander William Emmott, Alfred Leigh, Sir Joseph
Blake, Edward Farquharson, Dr. Robert Leng, Sir John
Boland, John Farrell, James Patrick Levy, Maurice
Brigg, John Fenwick, Charles Lloyd-George, David
Broadhurst, Henry Ffrench, Peter MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Flynn, James Christopher M'Dermott, Patrick
Burns, John Furness, Sir Christopher Mather, William
Caine, William Sproston Goddard, Daniel Ford Mooney, John J.
Caldwell, James Grant, Corrie Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)
Clancy, John Joseph Hammond, John Murphy, J.
Cogan, Denis J. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Harmsworth, R. Leicester Nolan, Col. John P (Galway, N.)
Cremer, William Randal Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Crombie, John William Helme, Norval Watson Norman, Henry
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Pickard, Benjamin Trevelyan, Charles Philips
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Pirie, Duncan V. Tully, Jasper
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Power, Patrick Joseph Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Reddy, M. Weir, James Galloway
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Redmond, William (Clare) Whiteley, George (York, W. R.
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Dowd, John Roche, John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Russell, T. W. Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G. Yoxall, James Henry
O Malley, William Soares, Ernest J.
O'Mara, James Stevenson, Francis S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Sullivan, Donal Mr. Patrick O'Brien and Mr. Haviland-Burke.
Philipps, John Wynford Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower)
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lowe, Francis William
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Duke, Henry Edward Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison
Arkwright, John Stanhope Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Maconochie, A. W.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r Manners, Lord Cecil
Bailey, James (Walworth) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fisher, William Hayes Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Baird, John George Alexander Fison, Frederick William Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Balcarres, Lord Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Milton, Viscount
Baldwin, Alfred Flannery, Sir Fortescue Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Fletcher, Sir Henry Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Ger. W. (Leeds) Forster, Henry William Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christch'ch Garfit, William More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Bartley, George C. T. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond. Morrell, George Herbert
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M H.(Bristol Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Beckett, Ernest William Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'ml'ts Mount, William Arthur
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Muntz, Philip A.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goulding, Edward Alfred Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Bigwood, James Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds Myers, William Henry
Bond, Edward Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Nicholson, William Graham
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gretton, John Nicol, Donald Ninian
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Guthrie, Walter Murray Parker, Gilbert
Hull, William James Hain, Edward Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Bullard, Sir Harry Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midl'x Pemberton, John S. G.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Hare, Thomas Leigh Pilkington, Richard
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Harris, FLeverton (Tynemouth Plummer, Walter R.
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Haslett, Sir James Horner Pretyman, Ernest George
Chamberlain, J. Austen (W'rc'r Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Chapman, Edward Heaton, John Henniker Purvis, Robert
Charrington, Spencer Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. Pym, C. Guy
Clare, Octavius Leigh Higginbottom, S. W. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead Renshaw, Charles Bine
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hogg, Lindsay Rentoul, James Alexander
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Hornby, Sir William Henry Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hoult, Joseph Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Ropner, Colonel Robert
Cook, Frederick Lucas Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Johnston, William (Belfast) Round, James
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cranborne, Viscount Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Knowles, Lees Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Dickson, Charles Scott Law, Andrew Bonar Smith, H. C (Northmb, Tyneside
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lawson, John Grant Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield Lee, Capt. A H (Hants, Fareham Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Dorington, Sir John Edward Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Douglas, Rt. Hon A. Akers- Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Stroyan, John
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Warr, Augustus Frederick Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Thorburn, Sir Walter Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Thornton, Percy M. Webb, Col. William George Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Valentia, Viscount Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E. (Taunton Young, Commander (Berks., E.
Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) Wills, Sir Frederick TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Wanklyn, James Leslie Wilson, Fred. W Norfolk, Mid. Sir William Walrond and
Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. Wilson, John (Glasgow) Mr. Anstruther.

Main Question again proposed.

MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, S.)

rose to continue the discussion.


rose in his place

and claimed to move, "That the Main Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Main Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 193; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 57.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C. Knowles, Lees
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dorington, Sir John Edward Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Law, Andrew Bonar
Arkwright, John Stanhope Doxford, Sir William T. Lawson, John Grant
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Duke, Henry Edward Lee, Capt. A H (Hants, Fareham
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D. Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Bailey, James (Walworth) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lowe, Francis William
Baird, John George Alexander Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth
Balcarres, Lord Fisher, William Hayes Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.
Baldwin, Alfred Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Maconochie, A. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Flannery, Sir Fortescue M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Fletcher, Sir Henry Manners, Lord Cecil
Balfour, Maj. K R (Christchurch Forster, Henry William Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n
Bartley, George C. T. Foster, Sir Michael (Lond, Uni.) Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Garfit, William Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon. Milton, Viscount
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Bigwood, James Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts Moore, William (Antrim, N.
Blnndell, Colonel Harry Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire
Bond, Edward Goulding, Edward Alfred Morrell, George Herbert
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, Sir E. W. (B'y St Edm'ds Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) Mount, William Arthur
Bull, William James Gretton, John Muntz, Philip A.
Bullard, Sir Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute
Cavendish, V.C. W.(Derbysh.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Guthrie, Walter Murray Myers, William Henry
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hain, Edward Nicholson, William Graham
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x Nicol, Donald Ninian
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hare, Thomas Leigh Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Chapman, Edward Harris, F. L. (Tynemouth) Parker, Gilbert
Charrington, Spencer Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Haslett, Sir James Horner Pemberton, John S. G.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Coghill, Douglas Harry Heaton, John Henniker Plummer, Walter R.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Helme, Norval Watson Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. Pretyman, Ernest George
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Higginbottom, S. W. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) Purvis, Robert
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hogg, Lindsay Pym, C. Guy
Cook, Frederick Lucas Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hornby, Sir William Henry Renshaw, Charles Bine
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hoult, Joseph Rentoul, James Alexander
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Rilley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Cranborne, Viscount Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Johnston, William (Belfast) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Ropner, Colonel Robert
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Dickson, Charles Scott Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Round, James
Dickson Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Ivenvon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Russell, T. W.
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Stone, Sir Benjamin Wills, Sir Frederick
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Stroyan, John Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid
Sharpe, William Edward T. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Thorburn, Sir Walter Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Thornton, Percy M. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Valentia, Viscount Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Smith, H. C (Nrth'mb. Tyneside Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) Warde, Lieut. Col. C. E.
Spear, John Ward Warr, Augustus Frederick TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wason, John Catheart (Orkney Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Webb, Colonel William George
Stock, James Henry Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Tauntn
Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John
Ambrose, Robert Grant, Corrie O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Hammond, John O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Harlow, John Emmott Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil O'Malley, William
Harry, E. (Cork, S.) Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Mara, James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hayden, John Patrick O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bell, Richard Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Philipps, John Wynford
Black, Alexander William Holland, William Henry Pickard, Benjamin
Blake, Edward Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a Pirie, Duncan V.
Boland, John Jordan, Jeremiah Power, Patrick Joseph
Brigg, John Joyce, Michael Reddy, M.
Broadhurst, Henry Kennedy, Patrick James Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth Redmond, William (Clare)
Burns, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Caine, William Sproston Leigh, Sir Joseph Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Caldwell, James Leng, Sir John Roche, John
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Levy, Maurice Shipman, Dr. John G.
Cawley, Frederick Lloyd-George, David Soares, Ernest J.
Clancy, John Joseph MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Stevenson, Francis S.
Cogan, Denis J. M'Dermott, Patrick Sullivan, Donal
Condon, Thomas Joseph Mather, William Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower)
Cremer, William Randal Mooney, John J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Crombie, John William Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tully, Jasper
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Murphy, J. Weir, James Galloway
Delany, William Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Imke (York, E. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. Whiteley, Geo. (York, W. R.)
Duffy, William J. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dunn, Sir William Norman, Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Emmott, Alfred Norton, Capt. Cecil William Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Yoxall, James Henry
Farrell, James Patrick O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid
Fenwick, Charles O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Ffrench, Peter O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Mr. Patrick O'Brien and Mr. Haviland-Burke.
Flynn, James Christopher O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Furness, Sir Christopher O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Main Question put accordingly.

The House divided:—Ayes, 190; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 58.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H. (Bristol Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Beckett, Ernest William Chapman, Edward
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Charrington, Spencer
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Clare, Octavius Leigh
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Bigwood, James Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Blundell, Colonel Henry Coghill, Douglas Harry
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Bond, Edward Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Bain, Col. James Robert Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Baird, John George Alexander Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready
Balcarres, Lord Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Baldwin, Ahred Bull, William James Compton, Lord Alwyne
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bullard, Sir Harry Cook, Frederick Lucas
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Balfour, Maj K. R (Christchurch Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Bartley, George C. T. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.) Cranborne, Viscount
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Purvis, Robert
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Pym, C. Guy
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Johnston, William (Belfast) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Dickson, Charles Scott Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Renshaw, Charles Bine
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Rentoul, James Alexander
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C. Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Dorington, Sir John Edward Kenyon, Tames (Lancs., Bury) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Knowles, Lees Ropner, Colonel Robert
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Duke, Henry Edward Law, Andrew Bonar Round, James
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lawson, John Grant Royds-, Clement Molyneux
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lee, Capt A. H. (Hants, Fareh'm Russell, T. W.
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Fisher, William Hayes Lowe, Francis William Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, K.)
Fletcher, Sir Henry Maconochie, A. W. Smith, H C (Northmb. Tyneside
Forster, Henry William M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Foster, Sir M. (London Univ.) Manners, Lord Cecil Spear, John Ward
Garfit, William Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Gordon, Hn. J E.(Elgin & Nairn Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Stock, James Henry
Gordon, Maj E.-(T'r Hamlets) Milton, Viscount Stone, Sir Benjamin
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Molesworth, Sir Lewis Stroyan, John
Goulding, Edward Alfred Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Strutt, Hon. Chas. Medley
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edw'nds More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Thornton, Percy M.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Morrell, George Herbert Tomlinson, W. Edw. Murray
Gretton, John Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Valentia, Viscount
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Guthrie, Walter Murray Mount, William Arthur Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.
Hain, Edward Muntz, Philip A. Warr, Augustus Frederick
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G.(Mid'x Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Wason, John C. (Orkney)
Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Webb, Col. William George
Harris, FLeverton (Tynemouth Myers, William Henry Welby, Lt. -CI. A. C. E. (Taunt'n
Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Nicholson, William Graham Wills, Sir Frederick
Haslett, Sir James Horner Nicol, Donald Ninian Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Heath, J. (Staffords., N. W.) Norman, Henry Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Heaton, John Henniker Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Pease, Herbert Pike (Darling'n Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Higginbottom, S. W. Pemberton, John S. G. Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Hogg, Lindsay Plummer, Walter R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hornby, Sir William Henry Pretyman, Ernest George
Hoult, Joseph Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud) Crombie, John William Helme, Norval Watson
Ambrose, Robert Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.
Atherley-Jones, L. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Holland, William Henry
Barlow, John Emmott Delany, William Jones, David Brynmor (Swanse
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jordan, Jeremiah
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Duffy, William J. Joyce, Michael
Bell, Richard Dunn, Sir William Kennedy, Patrick James
Black, Alexander Willian Emmott, Alfred Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth
Blake, Edward Farquharaon, Dr. Robert Layland-Barratt, Francis
Boland, John Farrell, James Patrick Leigh, Sir Joseph
Brigg, John Fenwick, Charles Leng, Sir John
Broadhurst, Henry Ffreneh, Peter Levy, Maurice
Brown, George M (Edinburgh) Flynn, James Christopher Lloyd-George, David
Burns, John Furness, Sir Christopher MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
Caine, William Sproston Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Dermott, Patrick
Caldwell, James Grant, Corrie Mather, William
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mooney, John J.
Clancy, John Joseph Hammond, John Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Cogan, Denis J. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport
Condon, Thomas Joseph Harmsworth, R. Leicester Murphy, J.
Cremer, William Randal Hayden, John Patrick Nannetti, Joseph P.
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N Philipps, John Wynford Tully, Jasper
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Pickard, Benjamin Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Norton, Capt. Cecil Wm. Pirie, Duncan V. Weir, James Calloway
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Power, Patrick Joseph White, Luke (York, E. R.
O'Brien, Kendal (Tiperary Mid Reddy, M. Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Redmond, John E. (Waterford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Redmond, William (Clare) Whittaker, Thomas Palmar
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid.
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
O'Dowd, John Roche, John Yoxall, James Henry
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Soares, Ernest J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Malley, William Stevenson, Francis S. Mr. Patrick O'Brien and
O'Mara, James Sullivan, Donal Mr. Haviland-Burke.
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thomas, J A(Glamorgan Gower

Resolutions agreed to.

Ordered, That the Proceedings on the Reports of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means and other Committees authorising the expenditure of Public Money may be entered upon at any hour though opposed, and shall not be interrupted under the provision of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, except of Standing Order No. 5.