HC Deb 26 June 1901 vol 95 cc1549-81

Order read, for further proceeding on consideration, as amended by the Standing Committee:—

The Clause (Definitions (Scotland)—

In the application of this Act to Scotland—

The expression "burial authority" shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of the Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855, or any Act omending the same.

The expression "the Local Government Board" shall mean the Local Government Board (Scotland);

The expression "Secretary of State" shall mean the Secretary of State for Scotland—(Mr. Renshaw.)

Read a second time on 19th June.


said he desired to know if it would be in order now to move that the clause ex- tending the Bill to Scotland be postponed. The clause, having been read a second time, was part of the Bill, and he submitted it would be in order to move that it be postponed until the other clauses had been considered.


That would not be in order.


said he desired to move an Amendment in order to raise a question of some little interest. In the opinion of the Law Officers of Scotland the parish council was the proper authority to be entrusted with powers under the Act, and it was provided that in the application of the Act to Scotland the expression "burial authority" should mean the parish council. It appeared to him, merely from English experience, that it was very doubtful whether it would be wise to entrust parish councils in Scotland with power to build crematoria. That would be a very expensive matter, and a matter requiring some scientific knowledge, which was not ordinarily at the disposal of a parish council. He should have thought that it was open to doubt whether the parish authority was the proper authority to carry through such a work. Then there was the question of expense. He thought he was right in saying that a parish council was limited with reference to its rating power under the Local Government Act, and no provision, so far as he was aware, was included in the Bill for extending that power. It would, therefore, in his opinion, be better to confine the application of the Bill in Scotland to the county councils, which commanded the best advice, and had very much greater financial resources. The Bill had been extended to Scotland on the advice of his hon. friend and against his own wishes, and, having been extended, it should be well considered. He begged to move to omit the words "parish councils or."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Clause— To leave out the words 'the parish council or.'"—(Lord Hugh Cecil.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'the parish council or' stand part of the Clause."

MR. RENSHAW (Renfrewshire, W.)

said he did not think the noble Lord quite apprehended the position in Scotland. He might explain that the parish council in Scotland was the burial authority, and the only authority which had any connection with the burial laws. There was no doubt whatever that under the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State it would be impossible for small parish councils to apply the Act, but there were large parish councils in Scotland which would be able to avail of it. He would appeal to the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, as the parish council was the only authority, outside the large boroughs, that could deal with the Bill in Scotland.


said that he was glad the Bill had been extended to Scotland, and, having been extended, they ought to make it workable. The noble Lord said that in his opinion the parish council would not be the proper authority, and he referred to the question of finance. His hon. friend who appealed to the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment said that the small rural parish councils would be incompetent to carry out the provisions of the Act. Surely there was no use in putting in an authority which would be incompetent.


said he did not suggest that the parish councils would be incompetent. What he did suggest was that many parish councils would not be large enough and would not have sufficient funds to meet the necessary regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State.


said he was wrong. He should have said that many of the parish councils would be unable to carry out the provisions of the Act, but if they were unable they would also be incompetent. He would ask the Solicitor General for Scotland whether it would not be possible to substitute the county council in Scotland for the parish council. He thought that would probably carry out what the noble Lord had in view.


With reference to the suggestion to substitute the county council for the parish council, I may point out that in Scotland the management and control of burial grounds under the Burial Acts have hitherto been vested in bodies whose powers are derived entirely from the parish. They were the parochial boards and are now the parish councils, and I am afraid it would lead to confusion and very great difficulty in administration if a body with such a large area as a county council were to be brought in to deal with matters which are really matters of parochial administration. Therefore, looking at the legislation existing in Scotland in this matter, I think that the right of saying whether a crematorium should or should not be erected should be with the parish council, and not with the county council. Of course the House will observe that the clause is merely an empowering clause, not a compelling clause. With reference to the observations of the noble Lord, I think it may be left to the well-known caution of the Scotch that they will not indulge in any superfluity of extravagance.


said of course it was very difficult for an Englishman, ignorant of the details of local government in Scotland, to discuss the matter. He understood there was substantial agreement between his noble friend and the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. His noble friend said that the parish councils in many cases would not be the proper authority, and would not have sufficient funds to enable it to carry out the provisions of the Act. That was acknowledged by the hon. Member in charge of the Bill.


said he begged to correct a misapprehension on the part of the noble Lord. He was not in charge of the Bill in any way. An hon. Member opposite was in charge of it.


said the hon. Member was in charge of the particular clause extending the Bill to Scotland. The hon. Member admitted that the small rural authorities would not be in a position to comply with the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State, but he said there was no intermediary body between the large borough councils and the parish councils in Scotland. He suggested that it might be possible to accept his noble friend's Amendment if a limit of population were inserted, so as to provide that no parish council should be entrusted with powers under the Act unless it represented a certain population.


said the noble Lord would be well advised to withdraw his

Amendment. He seemed to be nervous about the extravagance of the parish councils, but if they had no money they would not be able to build crematoria. The noble Lord answered himself, because he said the parish councils would have no rating power to meet such expenditure, and if they had no rating power they could not expend the money.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

said if the provisions had been mandatory he could have understood the objection of the noble Lord, but the Bill was only an enabling Bill, and therefore the objection of the noble Lord did not apply at all. The truth of the matter was that a Scotch debate might often be dull, but it was never ridiculous until Englishmen interfered.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 249; Noes, 104 (Division List, No. 281.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Colville, John Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)
Aguew, Sir Andrew Noel Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon
Allan, William (Gateshead) Craig, Robert Hunter Grant, Corrie
Anson, Sir William Reynell Crombie, John William Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Anstruther, H. T. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cullinan, J. Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds
Atherley-Jones, L. Dalkeith, Earl of Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Daly, James Grenfell, William Henry
Baldwin, Alfred Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Groves, James Grimble
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Denny, Colonel Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Balfour, Maj K. R. (Christchurch Dickson, Charles Scott Guthrie, Walter Murray
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Hammond, John
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Dillon, John Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Donelan, Captain A. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Doogan, P. C. Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Bell, Richard Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Harris, Frederick Leverton
Blake, Edward Doxford, Sir William Theodore Haslett, Sir James Horner
Blundell, Colonel Henry Duncan, J. Hastings Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-
Boland, John Dunn, Sir William Helme, Norval Watson
Bond, Edward Edwards, Frank Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Brigg, John Esmonde, Sir Thomas Henderson, Alexander
Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Brookfield, Colonel Montague Farrell, James Patrick Hill, Arthur
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)
Bull, William James Fenwick, Charles Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Bullard, Sir Harry Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Hogg, Lindsay
Burns, John Ffrench, Peter Holland, William Henry
Burt, Thomas Finch, George H. Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Caldwell, James Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Horniman, Frederick John
Cameron, Robert FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Hoult, Joseph
Causton, Richard Knight Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Cawley, Frederick Flannery, Sir Fortescue Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fuller, J. M. F. Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Channing, Francis Allston Galloway, William Johnson Johnston, William (Belfast)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Goddard, Daniel Ford Johnstone Heywood (Sussex)
Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Joicey, Sir James
Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny Soares, Ernest J.
Jordan, Jeremiah O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Spear, John Ward
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. Stevenson, Francis L.
Kinloch, Sir John George S. O'Malley, William Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Knowles, Lees O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Laurie, Lieut.- General Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham Stone, Sir Benjamin
Law, Andrew Bonar Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Strachey, Edward
Layland-Barratt, Francis Parker, Gilbert Sullivan, Donal
Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. Parkes, Ebenezer Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Partington, Oswald Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Leigh, Sir Joseph Paulton, James Mellor Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)
Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N
Lewis, John Herbert Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Lloyd-George, David Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) Tomkinson, James
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Lowe, Francis William Price, Robert John Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) Purvis, Robert Warr, Augustus Frederick
Lundon, W. Rankin, Sir James Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Macdona, John Cumming Rea, Russell Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Reckitt, Harold James White, Luke (York, E. R.)
M'Crae, George Reddy, M. Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
M'Govern, T. Redmond, John E. (Waterford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Manners, Lord Cecil Redmond, William (Clare) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Reid, James (Greenock) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Rickett, J. Compton Willox, Sir John Archibald
Milton, Viscount Rigg, Richard Wills, Sir Frederick
Molesworth, Sir Lewis Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)
Mooney, John J. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Robinson, Brooke Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose) Roe, Sir Thomas Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)
Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Ropner, Colonel Robert Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Myers, William Henry Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'ld
Newdigate, Francis Alexander Russel, T. W. Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Nicholson, William Graham Rutherford, John Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Yoxall, James Henry
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Schwann, Charles E.
Norman, Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire Renshaw and Mr. Wallace.
Nussey, Thomas Willans Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kimber, Henry
Aird, Sir John Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Allsopp, Hon. George Delany, William Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield Lawson, John Grant
Austin, Sir John Duffy, William J. Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Baird, John George Alexander Farquharson, Dr. Robert Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Balcarres, Lord Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Field, William Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Fisher, William Hayes M'Fadden, Edward
Bignold, Arthur Flower, Ernest Majendie, James A. H.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Flynn, James Christopher Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Boyle, James Forster, Henry William Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Butcher, John George Gilhooly, James Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Gretton, John Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Caxendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Gunter, Sir Robert Murphy, John
Chapman, Edward Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Nannetti, Joseph P.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hay, Hon. Claude George Nicol, Donald Ninian
Coddington, Sir William Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Cogan, Denis J. Helder, Augustus O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hudson, George Bickersteth O'Dowd, John
Cranborne, Viscount Joyce, Michael O'Mara, James
Crean, Eugene Kennedy, Patrick James O'Shaughnessy, P. C.
Penn John Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thorn. Myles Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Percy, Earl Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Pierpoint, Robert Sharpe, William Edward T. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Whfte, Patrick (Meath, North)
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynesd. Williams. Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm.
Power, Patrick Joseph Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich Wylie, Alexander
Pretyman, Ernest George Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Rash, Major Frederick, Carne Stock, James Henry Younger, William
Renwick, George Stroyan, John
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rochie, John Tufnel, Lieut.-Col. Edward Lord Hugh Cecil and Mr.
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehonse) Warde, Colonel C. E. Banbury.

said he desired to move in line 3, after the word "burgh," to insert "of more than 10,000 inhabitants." It was quite true that the clause was not mandatory, but merely permissive, but it was ridiculous to give power to a parish council to build a crematorium which had no power to raise the necessary money. Every parish of 10,000 inhabitants would, however, have power to raise sufficient money to cover any reasonable expenditure, and he ventured to think that the Amendment might be accepted.

Amendment proposed— After the word 'burgh,' to insert the words 'of more than ten thousand inhabitants.'"—(Earl Percy.)

Question proposed, "That those words fee there inserted."


said he could not conceive a more slovenly or clumsy way of legislating than passing a Bill giving all kinds of powers to an authority without inquiring whether that authority could use them or not. The hon. Member for South Tyrone conceived that because he represented an Irish constituency he was entitled to reprove Englishmen for discussing Scottish matters, but it was very difficult to accept that view. At any rate, hon. Members who understood Scottish institutions should have some regard to making the Bill a proper measure. No information had been given as to why his noble friend's Amendment should not be accepted, and up to the present they had not been treated to anything but severe silence, just as if, in discussing the powers of a parish council, they were trespassing on sacred ground, on which It was almost profane to enter. He hoped they would have a proper and respectful answer to the argument of his noble friend.

*MR. CORRIE GRANT (Warwickshire, Rugby)

said there was one condition which the House always insisted upon, and that was that when an hon. Member took part in a discussion he should have some elementary knowledge of the subject. The noble Lord who complained that the Amendment had been treated with severe silence said that the parish councils would have no power to provide funds for erecting crematoria.


It was stated in the last debate.


said the statement was inaccurate. If the noble Lord had taken the trouble to inform himself on the matter, as he ought to have done before criticising the Bill, he would have found that every parish council had power to raise money by loan for certain purposes.


asked what was the limit.


said he declined to turn the House of Commons into an elementary school-room.


said the hon. Gentleman accused him of being ignorant of the subject, but he himself would also appear to be ignorant of it.


said that might be; but some Members of the House would, at any rate, know that he had given a great deal of attention to these matters. It seemed to him that the ignorance of some hon. Members was extraordinary. He only rose to make the suggestion that as this was a practical discussion, he did not think hon. Members had a right to get up and expect to be instructed in details with which they ought to have acquainted themselves beforehand.


said he thought the position taken up by the hon. Member who had just spoken was very extraordinary. What had happened was that the hon. Member who introduced the new clause himself stated that the smaller parish councils would not have sufficient rating power to enable them to build crematoria. That was the only fact they had.


said that what had been stated was that there were some parish councils so small that they would not have the power of raising the necessary funds, but that a very large proportion of the parish councils would.


said he was dealing with the fact as it had been

stated by the hon. Member who introduced the clause. The clause extended the Bill to Scotland, and surely hon. Members had a right to discuss whether the means proposed were really adequate or not. They had been told that a large number of the parish councils would not be able to make use of the Act; why, then, should they be included. For his part, he would support the Amendment to limit the application of the Act to such authorities as could usefully make use of it.


said he would appeal to the House to support the clause in the form in which it had been read a second time. There were grave objections in practice to putting in the Bill a limitation of population.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 88; Noes, 268. (Division List No. 282.)

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) Hammond, John Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'd Penn, John
Baldwin, Alfred Hill, Arthur Pierpoint, Robert
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard
Bignold, Arthur Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside Plummer, Walter R.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Power, Patrick Joseph
Butcher, John George Johnstone, Heywood- (Sussex Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Caldwell, James Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop. Renwick, George
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A(Glasgow Kimber, Henry Richards, Henry Charles
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Knowles, Lees Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lawson, John Grant Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Llewellyn, Evan Henry Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Delany, William Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stock, James Henry
Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lundon, W. Stroyan, John
Farrell, James Patrick Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxf'dU.)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Macdona, John Gumming Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Finch, George H. Maconochie, A. W. Warde, Colonel C. E.
Fisher, William Hayes M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Flower, Ernest Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Forster, Henry William Murphy, J. White, Patrick (Meath, N.)
Galloway, Wm. Johnson Myers, William Henry
Gilhooly, James O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Earl Percy and Mr. Griffith-
Grenfell, William Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Boscawen.
Gunter, Sir Robert Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham
Acland-Hood. Capt. Sir Alex F. Anson, Sir William Reynell Austin, Sir John
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Anstruther, H. T. Bain, Colonel James Robert
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Ashton, Thomas Gair Baird, John George Alexander
Aird, Sir John Atherley-Jones, L. Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Maj. K R (Christchurch
Banbury, Frederick George Grant, Corrie Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y) Nannetti, Joseph P.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Bell, Richard Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Greville, Hon. Ronald Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Bill, Charles Groves, James Grimble Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Blake, Edward Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Norman, Henry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hain, Edward Norton, Captain Cecil Wm.
Boland, John Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil Nussey, Thomas Willans
Bond, Edward Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)
Boulnois, Edmund Harris, Fredk. Leverton O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Haslett, Sir James Homer O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Boyle, James Hay, Hon. Claude George O'Doherty, William
Brigg, John Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Broadhurst, Henry Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Dowd, John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Bullard, Sir Harry Helme, Norval Watson O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n,N.
Burns, John Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Chas. H. O'Malley, William
Burt, Thomas Henderson, Alexander O'Mara, James
Cameron, Robert Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) Parker, Gilbert
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Hogg, Lindsay Partington, Oswald
Causton, Richard Knight Holland, Wm. Henry Paulton, James Mellor
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Horniman, Frederick John Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Cawley, Frederick Hoult, Joseph Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hudson, George Bickersteth Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Channing, Francis Allston Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Price, Robert John
Chapman, Edward Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.
Coddington, Sir Wm. Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies Purvis, Robert
Cogan, Denis J. Jacoby, James Alfred Pym, C. Guy
Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse Johnston, Wm. (Belfast) Rankin, Sir James
Colville, John Joicey, Sir James Rea, Russell
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Jones, David Brynm'r (Swans'a Reckett, Harold James
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Reddy, M.
Craig, Robert Hunter Jordon, Jeremiah Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Crean, Eugene Joyce, Michael Redmond, William (Clare)
Crombie, John William Kearley, Hudson E. Reid, James (Greenock)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Kennedy, Patrick James Rickett, J. Compton
Crossley, Sir Savile Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury) Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge)
Cullinan, J. Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Rigg, Richard
Dalkeith, Earl of Kitson, Sir James Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Daly, James Lambert, George Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Denny, Colonel Laurie, Lieut.-General Robinson, Brooke
Dickson, Charles Scott Law, Andrew Bonar Roche, John
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) Roe, Sir Thomas
Dillon, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Donelan, Captain A. Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. Ropner, Col. Robert
Doogan, P. C. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Russell, T. W.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Leigh, Sir Joseph Rutherford, John
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Leng, Sir John Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Duffy, William J. Lewis, John Herbert Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Duncan, J. Hastings Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Schwann, Charles E.
Dunn, Sir Wm. Lough, Thomas Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Edwards, Frank Lowe, Francis William Shipman, Dr. John G.
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'e) MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Fardell, Sir T. George M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire
Farquharson, Dr. Robert M'Crae, George Smith, H C (North'mb. T'nes'de
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward M'Fadden, Edward Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Fenwick, Charles M'Govern, T. Soares, Ernest J.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Mappin, Sir Frdk. Thorpe Spear, John Ward
Ffrench, Peter Mather, William Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (North'ts
Field, William Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire Stevenson, Francis S.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Meysey-Thomson, Sir H. M. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Mildmay, Francis Bingham Strachey, Edward
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Sullivan. Donal
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Milton, Viscount Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Flynn, James Christopher Molesworth, Sir Lewis Thomas, David Alf red (Merth'r
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Mooney, John J. Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings.
Fuller, J. M. F. Morgan, David J. (Walthams'w Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r
Garfit, William Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morrell, George Herbert Thorburn, Sir Walter
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. Tomkinson, James
Gore, Hn G R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Trevelyan, Charles Philips Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wylie, Alexander
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Willox, Sir John Archibald Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Warr, Augustus Frederick Wills, Sir Frederick Younger, William
Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid Yoxall, James Henry
Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
White, Luke (York, E. R.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) Wilson-Todd, Wm H. (Yorks.) Mr. Renshaw and Mr.
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Wallace.
Whitmore, Charles Algernon Wolff, Gastav Wilhelm
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

The clause as it at present stands, that "the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh, as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of 'Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855,'" is not quite accurate. Neither of these bodies are defined in these sections. I propose to leave out the words "defined in Sections 2 and 3 of" for the purpose of substituting "as the case may be, vested with the powers and duties conferred by."

Amendment proposed— To leave out the words 'defined in sections two and three of,' and insert the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by.'"—(Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.)

Question, "That the words 'defined in Sections 2 and 3 of' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question put, "That the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by' be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes, 309; Noes, 51. (Division List No. 283.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Ffrench, Peter
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Finch, George H.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cawley, Frederick Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Aird, Sir John Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fisher, William Hayes
Allan, William (Gateshead) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond
Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell Channing, Francis Allston Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. A.
Anstruther, H. T. Chapman, Edward Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fletcher, Sir Henry
Ashton, Thomas Gain Coghill, Douglas Harry Flower, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Flynn, James Christopher
Austin, Sir John Colville, John Forster, Henry Wm.
Bain, Col. James Robert Compton, Lord Alwyne Foster, Sir W. (Derby County)
Baird, John G. Alexander Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Fuller, J. M. F.
Baldwin, Alfred Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Galloway, William Johnson
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Craig, Robert Hunter Garfit, William
Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christchch Crombie, John William Goddard, Daniel Ford
Banbury, Frederick George Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby-(Salop)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Crossley, Sir Savile Grant, Corrie
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Dalkeith, Earl of Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bell, Richard Daly, James Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds
Bignold, Arthur Denny, Colonel Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Blake, Edward Dickson, Charles Scott Grenfell, Wm. Henry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bond, Edward Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cock field Gretton, John
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Donelan, Captain A. Groves, James Grimble
Boulnois, Edmund Doogan, P. C. Gunter, Sir Robert
Brand, Hon. Arthur G. Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Brigg, John Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hain, Edward
Broadhurst, Henry Duncan, J. Hastings Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'ry
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Dunn, Sir Wm. Hammond, John
Bullard, Sir Harry Edwards, Frank Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd
Burns, John Elibank, Master of Harms worth, R. Leicester
Burt, Thomas Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Haslett, Sir James Homer
Butcher, John George Farquharson, Dr. Robert Hay, Hon. Claude George
Caldwell, James Fenwick, Charles Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-
Cameron, Robert Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasg'w Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r Helme, Norval Watson
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Milton, Viscount Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Henderson, Alexander Molesworth, Sir Lewis Samuel, Harry, S. (Limehouse)
Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. M.
Hill, Arthur Mooney, John J. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow Shipman, Dr. John
Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Hogg, Lindsay Morley, Chas. (Breconshire) Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire).
Holland, Wm. Henry Morrell, George Herbert Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F Smith, H C (N'rth'mb. Tyneside
Horniman, Frederick John Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford) Soares, Ernest J.
Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry Morton, Ed w. J. C. (Devonport) Spear, John Ward
Hoult, Joseph Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R Northants
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Myers, William Henry Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Newdigate, Francis Alexander Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Nicol, Donald Ninian Stevenson, Francis S.
Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Jacoby, James Alfred Norman, Henry Stock, James Henry
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Norton, Captain Cecil Wm. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Nussey, Thomas Willans Stroyan, John
Johnston, William (Belfast) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley
Joicey, Sir James O'Doherty, Wm. Sullivan, Donal
Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea O'Malley, William Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Jordan, Jeremiah Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Kearley, Hudson Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Kennedy, Patrick James Parker, Gilbert Thomas, J A (Gl'morgan, Gower-
Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury. Parkes, Ebenezer Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) Partington, Oswald Thorburn, Sir Walter
Kimber, Henry Paulton, James Mellor Thornton, Percy M.
Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Tomkinson, James
Kitson, Sir James Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray.
Knowles, Lees Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Penn, John Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Percy, Earl Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Lawson, John Grant Perks, Robert Wm. Warde, Col. C. E.
Layland-Barratt, Francis Pierpoint, Robert Warr, Augustus Frederick
Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Plummer, Walter R. Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)
Leigh, Sir Joseph Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wentworth, B. C. Vernon-
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Price, Robert John Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.
Leng, Sir John Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Lewis, John Herbert Purvis, Robert Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Pym, C. Guy Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Rankin, Sir James Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Rea, Russell Williams, Osmond (Merioneth.
Lough, Thomas Reckitt Harold James Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lowe, Francis William Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale Reid, James (Greenock) Wills, Sir Frederick
Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Renwick, George Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.).
Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. Rickitt, J. Compton Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Macdona, John Gumming Ridley, Hon. M. W. (St'lybr'dge Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Maconochie, A. W. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath,
M'Crae, George Rigg, Richard Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshre) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd,
Majendie, James A. H. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Malcolm, Ian Robinson, Brooke Wylie, Alexander
Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Roe, Sir Thomas Young, Samuel (Cavan, East).
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Younger, William
Maxwell, W. J. H Dumfries-sh. Ropner, Col. Robert Yoxall, James Henry
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Mildmay. Francis Bingham Russell, T. W. Mr. Renshaw and Mr.
Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk, F. Rutherford, John Wallace.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Condon, Thomas Joseph Field, William
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Cullinan, J. Gilhooly, James
Boland, John Dalrymple, Sir Charles Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.
Boyle, James Delany, William Harris, Frederick Leverton
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Duffy, William J. Hayden, John Patrick
Coddington, Sir William Esmonde, Sir Thomas Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.).
Cogan, Denis J. Farrell, James Patrick Hudson, George Bickersteth
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Richards, Henry Charles
Joyce, Michael O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Roche, John
Lambert, George O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Laurie, Lt.-General O'Dowd, John Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Lundon, W. O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Warner, Courtenay T.
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
M'Fadden, Edward O'Mara, James
M'Govern T. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Murphy, John Power, Patrick Joseph Mr. Crean and Thomas
Nannetti, Joseph P. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne O'Donnell.
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Reddy, M.
O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md Redmond, William (Clare)

Clause, as amended, added.

*MR. LEES KNOWLES (Salford, W.)

The new clause which I have now the honour to move must commend itself to the House. It is— No crematorium shall be constructed nearer to any dwelling house than two hundred yards, except with the consent in writing of the owner, lessee, and occupier of such house. I think it would be very objectionable to place a crematory close to a private residence. It would offend the eye with its huge chimney, and offend the ear by the tolling of the bell. Moreover, a householder does not care to see funerals constantly passing close to his house. Then from a public point of view a crematory erected in a suburb might cause a distinct interference with the systematic growth of the locality, and our suburbs require every protection. I do not say that 200 yards is a proper distance, and I would be quite open to accept an amendment. I do not know how many of these crematories we are going to have placed in the land, especially if small public bodies are to have the power to raise money for building them. I do not say that they will necessarily be placed next to private dwellings or in our suburbs. I can imagine them being used as landmarks, and a crematory being erected on the heights of Snowdon, or of Helvellyn, or of Ben Nevis, or even on the top of Croagh Patrick. The 200 yards may appear to be an arbitrary distance, but I have taken it from Section 10 of the Cemeteries Clauses Act of 1847. In considering this matter I was very much interested in reading the report on the

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Allan, William (Gateshead) Anson, Sir William Reynell
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) Anstruther, H. T.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Allsopp, Hon. George Ashton, Thomas Gair

Sanitary Condition of the Labouring Classes of Great Britain in 1843, which contains much information in regard to cemeteries. Great consideration was given to the situation in which cemeteries should be placed; and the report stated that, in general, public cemeteries should be placed to the east, north, or north-east of our towns, because the south and south-west winds were usually moist, and would carry the putrefactive gases over the town more readily than east, north, or north-east winds, which were dry. The same consideration ought to be given in regard to the situation of crematories. I beg to move—

New Clause (Site of Crematorium) brought up, and read the first time.—(Mr. Lees Knowles.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


So far as the Government is concerned we have no objection to this new clause. It is in accordance with the Cemeteries Clauses Act which raises exactly the same question, and it would be well to have a uniform area. I desire, however, to enter a protest against these places being called crematories, as they might be mixed up with creameries in Ireland.

Question put.

The House divided:—Aves, 293; Noes, 57. (Division List No. 284.)

Atherley-Jones, L. Flower, Ernest Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Flynn, James Christopher Macdona, John Cumming
Bain, Col. James Robert Forster, Henry William Maconochie, A. W.
Baldwin, Alfred Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey Fuller, J. M. F. M'Arthur, William (Cornw'll)
Balfoar, Maj. K R (Christchurch Galloway, Wm. Johnson M'Crae, George
Banbury, Frederick George Garfit, William M'Govern, T.
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Majendie, James A. H.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Grant, Corrie Malcolm, Ian
Bell, Richard Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Greene, Sir E W (B'y S Edm'nds) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F
Blake, Edward Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire
Blundell, Colonel Henry Grenfell, Wm. Henry Mellor, Rt. Hon. John Wm.
Boulnois, Edmund Gretton, John Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Brigg, John Greville, Hon. Ronald Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Broadhurst, Henry Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Fred. G.
Brookfield, Col. Montagu Groves, James Grimble Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Bullard, Sir Harry Gunter, Sir Robert Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Burt, Thomas Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mooney, John J.
Butcher, John George Hain, Edward Morgan, David J. (Walthamst.)
Caldwell, James Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Cameron, Robert Hammond, John Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Morrell, George Herbert
Carlile, William Walter Harmsworth, R. Leicester Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Harris, Frederick Leverton Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Haslett, Sir James Horner Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cawley, Frederick Hay, Hon. Claude George Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Myers, William Henry
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Helme, Norval Watson Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Channing, Francis Allston Henderson, Alexander Norman, Henry
Chapman, Edward Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hill, Arthur Nussey, Thomas Willans
Coddington, Sir William Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) O'Doherty, William
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hogg, Lindsay O'Malley, William
Colville, John Holland, William Henry O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Horniman, Frederick John Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Parkes, Ebenezer
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hoult, Joseph Partington, Oswald
Craig, Robert Hunter Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. Paulton, James Mellor
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hudson, George Bickersteth Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Waiden)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham)
Crossley, Sir Savile Joicey, Sir James Penn, John
Dalkeith, Earl of Jones, David B. (Swansea) Percy, Earl
Daly, James Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Perks, Robert William
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Jordan, Jeremiah Pierpoint, Robert
Denny, Colonel Kearley, Hudson E. Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard
Dickson, Charles Scott Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop) Plummer, Walter R.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Kimber, Henry Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles King, Sir Henry Seymour Price, Robert John
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.
Donelan, Capt. A. Kitson, Sir James Purvis, Robert
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. Rea, Russell
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Law, Andrew Bonar Reckitt, Harold James
Dunn, Sir William Lawson, John Grant Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)
Edwards, Frank Layland-Barratt, Francis Redmond, William (Clare)
Elibank, Master of Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. Reid, James (Greenock)
Emmott, Alfred Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Renwick, George
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) Leigh, Sir Joseph Rickett, J. Compton
Fardell, Sir T. George Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Fenwick, Charles Leng, Sir John Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lewis, John Herbert Rigg, Richard
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Llewellyn, Evan Henry Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Ffrench, Peter Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Finch, George H. Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Robinson, Brooke
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lough, Thomas Roe, Sir Thomas
Fisher, William Hayes Lowe, Francis William Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Ropner, Col. Robert
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.
Fletcher, Sir Henry Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) Rutherford, John
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne-
Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Sullivan, Donal Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Schwann, Charles E. Taylor, Theodore Cooke Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Seton-Karr, Henry Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Sharpe, William Edw. T. Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Shipman, Dr. John G. Thomas, J A (Gl'm'rgan, Gower) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Simeon, Sir Barrington Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N Wills, Sir Frederick
Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. Thorburn, Sir Walter Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Thornton, Percy M. Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)
Smith, H C (Northmb, Tyneside Tomkinson, James Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Soares, Ernest J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Spear, John Ward Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (North'nts) Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Wallace, Robert Wyhe, Alexander
Stevenson, Francis S. Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart Warde, Col. C. E. Younger, William
Stock, James Henry Warr, Augustus Frederick
Stone, Sir Benjamin Wason, E. (Clackmannan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Strachey, Edward Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. Mr. Knowles and Mr.
Stroyan, John White, Luke (York, E. R.) Griffith-Bowscawen.
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Austin, Sir John Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Power, Patrick Joseph
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne
Bignold, Arthur Joyce, Michael Reddy, M.
Boland, John Kennedy, Patrick James Renshaw, Charles Bine
Boyle, James Labouchere, Henry Richards, Henry Charles
Brand, Hon. Arthur G. Lambert, George Roche, John
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Laurie, Lieut.-General Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lundon, W. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Cullinan, J. M'Fadden, Edward Sinclair, Louis (Romford
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Murphy, John Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Dalziel, James Henry Nannetti, Joseph P. Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E. Taunton
Delany, William Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Doogan, P. C. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Duffy, William J. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, Patrick (Meath, North).
Esmonde, Sir Thomas O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Farrell, James Patrick O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Field, William O'Dowd, John Mr. Crean and Mr. Thos.
Gilhooly, James O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) O'Donnell.
Greene, Walford D (Wednesb'y O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs O'Mara, James

Clause added.


moved to insert the following clause— A burial authority may accept a donation of land for the purpose of a crematorium, and a donation of money or other property for enabling them to acquire, construct, or maintain a crematorium. He said the clause dealt with the law of mortmain, but he did not think it

needed any explanation; at any rate, he would not trouble the House with one.

Another clause (Donations of land, &c.)—(Mr. Lees Knowles)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."

The House divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes,. 51. (Division List No. 285.)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Goddard, Daniel Ford Malcolm, Ian
Bullard, Sir Harry Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Burt, Thomas Grant, Corrie Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H E (Wigt'n
Caldwell, James Greene, Sir E. W. B'ry S. Edmnds Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh-
Cameron, Robert Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow Grenfell, William Henry Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Carlile, William Walter Gretton, John Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Greville, Hon. Ronald Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Griffith, Ellis J. Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Cawley, Frederick Groves, James Grimble Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gunter, Sir Robert Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mooney, John J.
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hain, Edward Morgan, David J. (Walthm'w
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hammond, John Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Channing, Francis Allston Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'd Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Harmsworth, R. (Leicester) Morrell, George Herbert
Chapman, Edward Harris, Frederick Leverton Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Haslett, Sir James Horner Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Coddington, Sir William Hay, Hon. Claude George Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Helme, Norval Watson Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Colville, John Henderson, Alexander Myers, William Henry
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hill, Arthur Nicol, Donald Ninian
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. Norman, Henry
Craig, Robert Hunter Hogg, Lindsay Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cripps, Charles Alfred Holland, William Henry Nussey, Thomas Willans
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Horniman, Frederick John O'Doherty, William
Crossley, Sir Savile Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry O'Malley, William
Dalkeith, Earl of Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hudson, George Bickersteth Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Daly, James Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham
Dalziel, James Henry Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Denny, Colonel Jones, David (Brynmr Swansea Partington, Oswald
Dewar, T. R (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Dickson, Charles Scott Jordan, Jeremiah Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kearley, Hudson E. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Penn, John
Dillon, John Kimber, Henry Percy, Earl
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield King, Sir Henry Seymour Pierpoint, Robert
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard
Donelan, Captain A. Kitson, Sir James Plummer, Walter R.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore Laurie, Lieut-General Price, Robert John
Duncan, J. Hastings Lawson, John Grant Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Dunn, Sir William Layland-Barratt, Francis Purvis, Robert
Edwards, Frank Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. Rankin, Sir James
Elibank, Master of Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Rea, Russell
Emmott, Alfred Leigh, Sir Joseph Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Reid, James (Greenock)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Leng, Sir John Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Fardell, Sir T. George Lewis, John Herbert Renshaw, Charles Bine
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Llewellyn, Evan Henry Renwick, George
Fenwick, Charles Lloyd-George, David Rickett, J. Compton
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Ffrench, Peter Lough, Thomas Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)
Field, William Lowe, Francis William Rigg, Richard
Finch, George H. Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Robinson, Brooke
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent Roe, Sir Thomas
Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ropner, Colonel Robert
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Fletcher, Sir Henry Macdona, John Cumming Russell, T. W.
Flower, Ernest Maconochie, A. W. Rutherford, John
Forster, Henry William M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Crae, George Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles-
Fuller, J. M. F. M'Govern, T. Schwann, Charles E.
Galloway, William Johnson M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Garfit, William Majendie, James A. H. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire Thornton, Percy M. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Tollemache, Henry James Willox, Sir John Archibald
Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynesi'e Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wills, Sir Frederick
Soares, Ernest J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid
Spear, John Ward Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Wallace, Robert Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Warde, Colonel C. E. Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Stock, James Henry Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Stone, Sir Benjamin Warr, Augustus Frederick Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsfid
Strachey, Edward Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley Weir, James Galloway Wylie, Alexander
Sullivan, Donal Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts. Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Taylor, Theodore Cooke Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Younger, William
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr White, Luke (York, E. R.) Yoxall, James Henry
Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un-Lyne
Thomas, J. A. Glamorgan Gow'r Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Thompson, Dr E C (Monaghan N Whitmore, Charles Algernon Knowles and Mr. Griffith-
Thorburn, Sir Walter Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Boscawen.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) O'Mara, James
Baird, John George Alexander Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Baldwin, Alfred Kennedy, Patrick James Paulton, James Mellor
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Lambert, George Power, Patrick Joseph
Boland, John Law, Andrew Bonar Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Lundon, W. Reddy, M.
Cogan, Denis J. MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Redmond, Wm. (Clare)
Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Fadden, Edward Richards, Henry Charles
Cullinan, J. Murphy, John Roche, John
Delany, William Nannetti, Joseph P. Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)
Doogan, P. C. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Duffy, William J. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Shipman, Dr. John G.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Farrell, James Patrick O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton)
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury O'Dowd, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Green, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Mr. Crean and Mr. Thomas
Hay den, John Patrick O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. O'Donnell.

Clause added.

MR. MACARTNEY (Antrim, S.)

moved the following clause— In the application of this Act to Ireland the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the urban sanitary authority or the rural sanitary authority as defined in Sections 22 and 33 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898; the expressions 'the Local Government Board' and 'the Secretary of State' shall mean the Local Government Board (Ireland). The only argument which he thought it necessary to advance in support of this clause was that the reasons which rendered it desirable that crematoriums should be established in England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. He desired to correct a misapprehension which arose from a statement made in the Grand Committee. An hon. Member there said there were no burial boards in Ireland. But in that he was wrong, for boards had existed since 1856 which exercised the powers of burial boards in the same way as in England and Scotland.

Another clause (Definitions (Ireland)—(Mr. Macartney)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)

said that, being in charge of the Bill, he desired to correct the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to what took place in the Grand Committee. There was no question as to the non-existence of burial boards in Ireland. It was never the intention of anyone connected with the Bill to extend its provisions to Ireland. He objected in the strongest way to its being extended to that country; he had the greatest sympathy with those who objected to the extension, and he hoped his hon. friends on that side of the House would assist him in resisting the proposal. Ireland had unfortunately a smaller population than any other part of the United Kingdom. It was only in dense populations that the Bill was desirable in the interests of public health, and he had no desire to force it upon any community, the greater portion of which was opposed to it.

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)

could not conceive it possible that the House of Commons would force the Bill on Ireland against what was practically the opinion of the whole of the people of the country. The hon. Member who had moved the Amendment was no doubt an Irishman, but if a division were taken it would be seen that there was an overwhelming majority of opinion of Irish Members sitting in every quarter of the House against the Bill. It was never seriously suggested before the Committee that it should be extended to Ireland, and when an Amendment was moved to extend it to Scotland he opposed it, very largely on the ground that the matter had not been discussed by the Committee, and because he did not think it fair at the last moment to spring the proposal upon the Committee, especially as he had not had an opportunity of ascertaining what was the view of the majority of Scotch Members. He was, therefore, perfectly consistent in taking the same position now in regard to Ireland. It seemed to him absolutely impossible to entertain the proposal seriously. The application of the Bill to Ireland would undoubtedly for most deeply resented by an overwhelming majority of the people. It would be a shock to their feelings. Anyone who knew the country knew that the religious feeling of the great majority would be outraged by the application of the Bill to their country, and without asking whether that feeling was reasonable or not, it would be a monstrous thing at the last moment if this was forced upon Ireland against the protest of the overwhelming majority of Irish Members, that he trusted the House of Commons would have more fairness and more common sense than to attempt to do anything of the kind.


I hope the House will reject the Amendment. Let me remind hon. Members what is the real object of this Bill. Cremation is existent in England and Scotland, it can be carried on without any kind of interference by any authority, and I say it is a matter of importance, seeing that the practice is growing, that there should be some supervision by a Government department of the conditions under which bodies are burned. But no such necessity exists in Ireland. I do not believe there is a single crematorium in that country, neither is there any system of burning bodies. If that is so, why should we, in the face of the opposition of the greater part of the Irish Members, burden the Bill by including Ireland? Do not let us allow ourselves to be led away from what are the real objects of the Bill by attempting to apply to Ireland a state of affairs in no way applicable to that country.


joined in the protest of the right hon. Gentleman opposite against the extension of this Bill to Ireland, where such a course would create the greatest possible revulsion of feeling. He had never heard of a single case of cremation in Ireland, although the practice was common in England. They ought not, at the instance of a small handful of Members, make a change which would be so repugnant to the feelings of the Irish people.

MR. MORRIS (Galway)

, speaking as an Irishman, urged the House not to accept the proposal, which was positively repugnant to the ideas of the Irish people, who possessed strong reverential, conscientious feelings on these questions. It was not the case that the reasons which justified the application of the Bill to England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. There might be over-population in parts of the former countries, but in Ireland emigration was on the increase, and the population was decreasing. The least they could do for those who elected to remain in their native country was to ensure their decent burial in mother earth.


could not understand the objection to the clause. The Bill was purely optional, and it was ridiculous to talk of forcing it on Ireland. How could they enforce a purely optional clause? They had been told that the Irish people did not want the Bill, but, after all, the object was merely to regulate the use of crematoria, and if, as was quite possible, one were ever set up in Ireland it ought to be subject to supervision in the same way as those in England and Scotland. He hoped his right hon. friend would press his clause to a division.


agreed with the last speaker. There was no desire to force anything disagreeable on Ireland, but they had been warned that by means of cremation crime might be concealed, and any legislation calculated to prevent the concealment of crime was equally good for England, Scotland, and Ireland. The Bill did not compel the establishment of crematoria; it simply provided for their proper supervision when set up. It was purely optional in its operation.


said he had listened with great attention to the remarks of the hon. Member for Waterford, and he was sure the House would desire to attach the utmost weight to the views of Irish representatives on Irish questions. But he would like to point out that this was not a Bill to establish crematoria in Ireland. The hon. Member's objection was really an objection to the practice of cremation, which, no doubt, was opposed to the ideas of the majority of the Irish people. But this

Allsopp, Hon. George Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo. Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bain, Col. James Robert Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Hain, Edward
Baird, John George Alex. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry)
Balfour, Maj K. R (Christch'rch) Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C. Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd)
Banbury, Frederick George Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D. Haslett, Sir James Horner
Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor) Doxford, Sir William T. Henderson, Alexander
Boulnois, Edmund Firbank, Joseph Thomas Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter
Brymer, William Ernest FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose- Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich
Carlile, William Walter Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Flower, Ernest Hoult, Joseph
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Galloway, William Johnson Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Garfit, William Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil
Coghill, Douglas Harry Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Hudson, George Bickersteth
Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) Godson, Sir Augustus F. Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Graham, Henry Robert Johnston, William (Belfast)
Cripps, Charles Alfred Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Kimber, Henry
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) King, Sir Henry Seymour
Crossley, Sir Savile Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds Laurie, Lt.-General
Dalkeith, Earl of Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Leng, Sir John
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Denny, Col. Gretton, John Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent).

Bill did not come within the scope of that objection. Still, the objection of hon. Members below the gangway opposite were much more reasonable than that put forward by hon. Gentlemen above the gangway. As to the point of population, the Bill had been extended to Orkney and Shetland, so that it did not lie in the mouths of the promoters of the Bill to say that it should not be extended to Ireland. There were portions of that country which were very populous indeed—Belfast, for instance. There was no opposition to the Bill in the north of Ireland. No doubt in three parts of the country the Bill would be a dead letter, but that was no reason why it should not be applied to the neighbourhood of Belfast, as well as to Glasgow. He could understand the opposition of the Irish Members below the gangway, but the arguments of those above the gangway deserved no respect whatever.

It being half-past Five of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.

Whereupon Sir WALTER FOSTER rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, because he was of opinion that the House was prepared to come to an immediate decision without that motion.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 113; Noes, 251. (Division List No. 286.)

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Stone, Sir Benjamin
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Pierpoint, Robert Thornton, Wm. Edw. Murray
Maconochie, A. W. Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Warde, Col. C. E.
M'Laren, Chas. Benjamin Purvis, Robert Warr, Augustus Frederick
Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Rankin, Sir James Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Remnant, James Farquharson Willoughby de Eresby. Lord
Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Roe, Sir Thomas Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Morrell, George Herbert Ropner, Col. Robert Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Sadler, Col. Samuel A. Wylie, Alexander
Murray, Col. W. (Bath) Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Younger, William
Myers, William Henry Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Newdigate, Francis A. Seton-Karr, Henry Mr. Macartney and Mr. Griffith-Boscawen.
Nicol, Donal Ninian Simeon, Sir Barrington
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Cullinan, J. Horniman, Frederick John
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cust, Henry John C. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Hy.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Daly, James Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton
Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud Dalziel, James Henry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Ambrose, Robert Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Joicey, Sir James
Ashton, Thomas Gair Delany, William Jones, David B. (Swansea)
Atherley-Jones, L. Dickson, Charles Scott Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dillon, John Jordan, Jeremiah
Austin, Sir John Donelan, Captain A. Joyce, Michael
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Doogan, P. C. Kearley, Hudson E.
Baldwin, Alfred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kennedy, Patrick James
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Donglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) Kenyon, J. (Lancs., Bury)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Duffy, William J. Keswick, William
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Duncan, J. Hastings Kinloch, Sir John George S.
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Dunn, Sir William Kitson, Sir James
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Edwards, Frank Knowles, Lees
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Elibank, Master of Lambert, George
Bignold, Arthur Emmott, Alfred Law, Andrew Bonar
Bigwood, James Esmonde, Sir Thomas Lawson, John Grant
Blake, Edward Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne Layland-Barratt, Francis
Blundell, Colonel Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Leigh, Sir Joseph
Boland, John Farrell, James Patrick Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Boyle, James Fenwick, Charles Lewis, John Herbert
Brigg, John Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Broadhurst, Henry Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r) Lough, Thomas
Brookfield, Col. Montagu Ffrench, Peter Lowe, Francis William
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Field, William Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lundon, W.
Bullard, Sir Harry Fisher, William Hayes Macdona, John Cumming
Burns, John Flannery, Sir Fortescue MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
Burt, Thomas Fletcher, Sir Henry M'Crae, George
Butcher, John George Flynn, James Christopher M'Fadden, Edward
Buxton, Sydney Charles Fuller, J. M. F. M'Govern, T.
Caldwell, James Gilhooly, James M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Cameron, Robert Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Malcolm, Ian
Campbell, Rt. Hn J A. (Glasgow) Goddard, Daniel Ford Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Campbell, John (Armagh S.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Martin, Richard Biddulph
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Grant, Corrie Mellor, Rt. Hon John William
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Grenfell, William Henry Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cawley, Frederick Griffith, Ellis J. Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Cayzer, Sir Chas. Wm. Groves, James Grimble Mooney, John J.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gunter, Sir Robert Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)
Channing, Francis Allston Hammond, John Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Chapman, Edward Harmsworth, R. Leicester Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Harris, Frederick Leverton Morris, Hon. Martin H. F.
Cogan, Denis J. Hay, Hon. Claude George Murphy, J.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hayden, John Patrick Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Colville, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Craig, Robert Hunter Helme, Norval Watson Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.
Crean, Eugene Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
Crombie, John Wm. Hogg, Lindsay Norman, Henry
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Nussey, Thomas Willans Redmond, Wm. (Clare) Taylor, Theodore Cooke
O'Brien, Kendal (T'pp'r'ry Mid. Reid, Sir J. T. (Dumfries) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Renshaw, Charles Bine Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Renwick, George Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Richards, Henry Charles Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N
O'Doherty, William Rickett, J. Compton Thorburn, Sir Walter
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Rigg, Richard Tomkinson, James
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson Trevelyan, Charles Philips
O'Dowd, John Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Roche, John Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S)
O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
O'Malley, William Round, James Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
O'Mara, James Russell, T. W. Weir, James Galloway
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Rutherford, John Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham Schwann, Charles E. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford White, Patrick (Meath, N.)
Partington, Oswald Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne
Paulton, James Mellor Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Pease, Herbt, P. (Darlington) Skewes-Cox, Thomas Willox, Sir John Archibald
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Smith, H C (North'mb., T'neside Wills, Sir Frederick
Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham) Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley Soares, Ernest J. Wilson, John (Durham Mid.)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Spear, John Ward Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Power, Patrick Joseph Speneer, Rt. Hn C R (Northants.) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Price, Robert John Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Rasch, Major Frederick Carne Stock, James Henry
Rea, Russell Strachey, Edward TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Reddy, M. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Sir Walter Foster and
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Sullivan, Donal Mr. Wallace.

Further consideration deferred till Wednesday next.