§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.) moved after the word "Class" in line 8, to insert "or any higher elementary school or class according to the Higher Elementary School Minute, 1900." He thought that these higher elementary schools were placed in jeopardy by the Bill. At any rate, some doubt was felt on the matter as a result of the Cockerton judgment. It was very important if these schools were to continue to exist that their position should be legalised.
1433
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 8, after the word 'class,' to insert the words 'or any higher elementary school or class according to the Higher Elementary School Minute, 1900.' "—(Mr. Yoxall.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST, Cambridge University)said he could assure the hon. Member that his Amendment was unnecessary. There was no doubt that the higher elementary schools were public elementary schools under the Act, and that the school fund might be properly applied to the maintenance of such schools.
§ DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)said he was sorry the right hon. the Vice-President did not accept the Amendment. The higher elementary schools were not in the Bill, although he believed the Bill permitted, or sanctioned, night schools.
§ SIR J. GORSTBoth day and night schools.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid that there was no specific mention in the Bill of the higher elementary schools, and the Cockerton judgment laid it down that these schools were not sanctioned except based on the Whitehall Code of 1898—not the Code of 1900. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that there was a great deal of anxiety about this matter, and what they wanted to secure was the allaying of that anxiety, and the placing of the legitimacy of the higher elementary schools beyond doubt or question.
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid the hon. Member did not seem to appreciate the matter.
§ If there was any such alarm as he said there was, application could be made to the local authorities, and it would be found that these schools were sanctioned under the Bill as it stood.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANT (Warwickshire, Rugby)said that if the Government were not going to argue Amendments proposed from that side of the House, it would be more convenient if the right hon. Gentleman were to say so, and that no Amendments whatever would be accepted. The Opposition would then know where they were. He really suggested that the Amendment was necessary to bring the higher elementary schools within the scope of the Bill. From the position the right hon. Gentleman had taken up, there would necessarily be some doubt in the minds of the school boards as to the exact meaning of the Bill. If the school boards went to the local authorities to find whether the higher elementary schools came within the Act, the local authorities would say that they could not find them in the Act. Then the school board would say that in the debates in the House of Commons the Vice-President of the Council said that the higher elementary schools were within the Act, whereupon the legal adviser of the County council would say that any assurance given by the right hon. Gentleman across the floor of the House of Commons had no legal force whatever, that it could not bind the county council, and that if the Government had wanted to make that assurance effective they would have put it in the Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 110. (Division List No. 354.)
1435| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Caldwell, James | Duncan, J. (Hastings) |
| Asher, Alexander | Cameron, Robert | Elibank, Master of |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Causton, Richard Knight | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Channing, Francis Allston | Fenwick, Charles |
| Boland, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Craig, Robert Hunter | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Cullinan, J. | Gilhooly, James |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Grant, Corrie |
| Burt, Thomas | Doogan, P. C. | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Duffy, William J. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants. |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Strachey, Edward |
| Helme, Norval Watson | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife West) | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Horniman, Frederick John | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | O'Dowd, John | Tomkinson, James |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Tully, Jasper |
| Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Partington, Oswald | Wallace, Robert |
| Langley, Battey | Paulton, James Mellor | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rea, Russell | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Reddy, M. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Lundon, W. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Roe, Sir Thomas | |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Yoxall and Dr. Macnamara. |
| Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) | |
| Murphy, John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Shipman, Dr. John G. | |
| Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Soares, Ernest J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Purvis, Robert |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Hain, Edward | Randles, John S. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x | Rankin, Sir James |
| Arroll, Sir William | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r) | Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead | Renwick, George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Hoult, Joseph | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Bignold, Arthur | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Rutherford, John |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Sadler, Col. S. Alexander |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) | Stanley Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Keswick, William | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Lawson, John Grant | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Tomlinson, W. Edw. Murray. |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdona, John Cumming | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Denny, Colonel | Maconochie, A. W. | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Webb, Col William George |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Malcolm, Ian | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. L. (Taunton) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Mitchell, William | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Mount, William Arthur | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Flower, Ernest | Mowbray, Sir R. Gray C. | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Nicholson, William Graham | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Percy, Earl | |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | |
| Gretton, John | Pretyman, Ernest George |
§ MR. YOXALL moved to amend the clause by inserting before the word "maintenance" in line 3 the words "provision or." He said that "maintenance" had a technical meaning, and 1436 referred to the current expenses of upkeep. If it had been illegal in the past, and was now, to use the school fund for the purpose of "maintaining" the school, it was equally illegal to use 1437 the school fund for "providing" a school or class, for the purchase of the land, for the cost of the building and the furniture.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that if there was any real distinction between "provision" and "maintenance," then the hon. Gentleman's Amendment ought to be in the third line of the clause—after "maintained out of" to insert "or provided by."
§ ME. YOXALLsaid he preferred his own form of the Amendment.
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid that the Amendment was quite unnecessary.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 8, after the first word 'the' to insert the words 'provision or.' "—(Mr. Yoxall.)
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 104; Noes, 143. (Division List No. 355.)
1439| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Helme, Norval Watson | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Asher, Alexander | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Holland, William Henry | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hope, John D. (Fife, West) | Rea, Russell |
| Boland, John | Horniman, Frederick John | Reddy, M. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Joyce, Michael | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kennedy, Patrick James | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Caine, William Sproston | Langley, Batty | Shaw, Thos. (Hawick B.) |
| Caldwell, James | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cameron, Robert | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Carew, James Laurence | Logan, John William | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lough, Thomas | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lundon, W. | Strachey, Edward |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) |
| Dewar, J. A. (Inverness-sh.) | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Tomkinson, James |
| Doogan, P. C. | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dufty, William J. | Murphy, J. | Tully, Jasper |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wallace, Robert |
| Elibank, Master of | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Parrell, James Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Mara, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Yoxall and Mr. Herbert Lewis. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Partington, Oswald | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bignold, Arthur | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Boulnois, Edmund | Crossley, Sir Savile |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Arrol, Sir William | Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow) | Denny, Colonel |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Cayzer, Sir Charles Wm. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Chamberlain, J. Austen (W'rc'r. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Flower, Ernest | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.) | Macdona, John Cumming | Sharpe, William Edw. T. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | MacIver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Malcolm, Ian | Spear, John Ward |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Manners, Lord Cecil | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y) | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Middlemore, John T. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Gretton, John | Mitchell, William | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Groves, James Grimble | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Hain, Edward | Mount, Wm. Arthur | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Warr, Augustus Fredk. |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Nicholson, William Graham | Webb, Colonel William Geo. |
| Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton) |
| Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Hoult, Joseph | Percy, Earl | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Purvis, Robert | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Randles, John S. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Rankin, Sir James | Wylie, Alexander |
| Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong |
| Keswick, William | Renwick, George | |
| Law, Andrew Bonar | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Lawson, John Grant | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Ropner, Colonel Robert | |
| Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. | Rutherford, John |
§ MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.) moved in line 9 to leave out "is" and insert "has been declared by the Board of Education to be." He could not help seeing that in many localities the present state of things could not go on. He put it to the right hon. Gentleman whether, by way of reparation for the grave mistake which the Education Department had made in allowing the present state of things to continue so long the Department, should not make it perfectly clear to the school boards and the local authorities what was legal and what was not legal. He knew that the reply of the right hon. Gentleman would be that the Evening School Minute of 3rd July made it quite clear what the school board could do during the coming year. That might be so, but they had not yet had an opportunity of discussing that Minute, and they could not deal that day with the matter on the assumption that that Minute would become the law of the land. But even if that were so, what about the higher grade schools? In the interests both of the Department and of the higher grade schools of the 1440 country he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept his Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, to leave out the word 'is, and insert the words 'has been declared by the Board of Education to be.' "—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'is' stand part of the clause."
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment when he reflected what this Bill was. This was an emergency Bill, and intended as an emergency Bill, to enable certain schools to be carried on whose work would otherwise be upset. If this Amendment were carried the operation of the Bill would be seriously delayed, for no local authority could make an order with regard to the evening continuation and higher grade schools until the Board of Education had gone into the accounts of these schools and declared that some part of their expenditure was illegal. That would involve the examination of no fewer than 2,000 1441 accounts, which would wreck the intention of the Bill, and prevent the schools being carried on.
§ MR. ALFRED HUTTON (Yorkshire, W. R., Morley)said that right hon. Gentlemen alleged that it was perfectly impossible for the Board of Education to carry on this new work; but, surely, with all the machinery at their command, and with all their experience and knowledge, they might determine the question very quickly if they chose to do so. The right hon. Gentleman had told the Committee that this was an emergency Bill. Well, that was his own view; but they had also been told that by this Bill they were going to establish the principle of the new secondary education authority. They were, however, going to give considerable powers to the new authority in matters which were not secondary education, and they ought to have some indication from the Department as to where the new authority was justified in interfering with schools which were not secondary. The Board of Education could very easily, with their knowledge and experience, make some declaration which would be for the guidance of the new authorities, and not permit them to wander at large and interfere with all the standards and grades which might be carried on. It was not fair or right that under this emergency Bill they should not only lay down the principle of establishing the county councils as the new secondary education authority, but at the same time give them very considerable powers in regard to elementary education as well. Everybody knew that the Board of Education had evaded their responsibility and shirked their duty in regard to the higher grade evening continuation schools in the past; and the Board ought to indicate to the new authorities what their duty was. This Amendment was very important, and would let the Committee see whether the Department was going to shirk all responsibility.
§ MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)said that the Vice-President of the Council had placed a construction on the Amendment which his hon. friend did not intend. What his hon. friend desired was that some guidance should be given 1442 to the school boards and local authorities as to the cases covered by the Cockerton judgment. His friend did not intend to suggest that the Board of Education should, as the Vice-President alleged, go through every case in which school boards had maintained higher grade or evening continuation schools, but that the Board should lay down general rules stating the effect of the Cockerton judgment, and what schools were covered by that judgment as elucidated by the competent legal authorities at the command of the Board themselves. In fact, what was wanted was that the Department should issue a circular to the local authorities and the school boards in order that these might have in their possession materials which they did not now possess, and had no means of acquiring, to guide their action and enable them to come to a decision. The airy way in which the Vice-President disposed of the Bill would lead the Committee to believe that there was no difficulty arising out of the Cockerton judgment. That judgment had only settled two things—first of all, that the education of adults could not be paid for out of the rates; and, secondly, that the payments should be given within the scope of the Whitehall Code. Now, how far did these two propositions carry the school boards in knowing whether or not they were to go cap in hand to the local authority and ask leave to carry on these schools? We were in a most difficult impasse, which was not to be got rid of in the airy way of the right hon. Gentleman. What was the alternative? It was that every school board should take legal advice as to what classes and schools which they had been maintaining came within the Cockerton judgment. That would take some time, and probably the legal advice would not be the same in all cases, and a great deal of variation in the practice of the school boards in different districts would be the outcome. Then, the local authorities would also probably take legal advice in their turn as to whether the cases brought before them came within their jurisdiction or not. He did not see how all that could be done without loss of time and great benefit to the legal advisers. The Government were in the position that they ought to give some help to the local authorities and the school boards, 1443 and if they did not like the particular form embodied in his hon. friend's Amendment, let them suggest words of their own which would settle a real and substantial difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman had called this an emergency Bill. It was more than that. It was a confusion Bill, and he thought that the Government ought, even in the short time at their disposal, to lend their best help in order to extricate the school boards and local authorities from the greatest possible confusion.
§ MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire, South Molton)said that, speaking on behalf of the county council of Devon, he would press the acceptance of this Amendment. They absolutely did not know what was legal and what was not legal. The Board of Education itself had evidently not known what was legal or illegal. The technical education committees should not be compelled to go into these legal questions, which might put them in conflict with a powerful school board. Who was to settle the difficulty? Were they going to have more litigation? Were the Board of Education going to abrogate the whole of their functions and put them on the county councils? The Department ought to do its duty, and bring out regulations showing what schools had been continued legally or illegally. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was not treating the Committee or the county councils fairly in attempting to put on to them this litigation business.
§ MR. GEORGE WHITE (Norfolk, N.W.)said that either the work put upon the county councils would be merely formal, or it would create a good deal of friction. The Vice-President said that it was impossible for the Department to accept the Amendment, because they would have to go through 2,000 school accounts; but had the right hon. Gentleman quite taken into consideration the difficulties the borough and county councils would be in in this matter? Probably many of the borough councils were sitting this week for the last time until the middle of September, and how they could deal with the question in an intelligent manner he was entirely at a loss to understand. They must treat it 1444 perfunctorily, and leave it absolutely in the way in which it was left by the Education Department. He thought the difficulties which the Department would encounter would be nothing like the difficulties the local authorities would have to encounter if they attempted to deal with the matter in an intelligent way. The Amendment was a reasonable one, and unless the right hon. Gentleman was determined that no single letter in the Bill was to be altered, it should be accepted.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid he desired to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. If he would not accept an Amendment, why should he not send out a circular to the local authorities stating what was legal and what was not legal? That would relieve the local authorities from many difficulties. He objected strongly to the manner in which the Vice-President of the Council brushed aside all serious difficulties. In the Night School Minute it was laid down that evening schools might get grants, but when the right hon. Gentleman was asked to state what subjects could be legally given he declined. When he himself asked the right hon. Gentleman how were the school boards to know he replied, "They had better ask the hon. Member for North Camber well." He did not think that would help them much, but it was not a serious way of treating a difficulty. Within the last few days the Cardiff Town Council spent several profitless hours in trying to decide what was a school fund, and if several hours were spent in attempting to define that, Heaven only knew what time would be required to decide what was legal and what was not legal. Where a school board and a municipal body were of the same political view, he had no doubt the council would give the school board carte blanche; but where the school board was of one political view and the municipal council of another, he foresaw interminable wrangling. The First Lord of the Treasury stated that next session he intended to give an early and honourable place to an Education Bill, but the animosity which would arise as a result of the Bill before the Committee would prejudice that, not perhaps in the House 1445 but certainly in the country. If the right hon. Gentleman set a Progressive majority on a school board and a Moderate majority on a municipal council by the ears, the result would be that the Education Bill of next year would be prejudiced by the difficulties which would arise. He understood there was to be no Amendment to the present Bill. He did not complain, as the Government had a majority; but if the Government desired the Bill to be worked in a harmonious manner, he would suggest that the practice of the Department in past years of sending out explanatory circulars should be adopted. Unless that were done there would be endless friction, and unless a circular were promised he should be compelled in the interests of peace and harmony to vote for the Amendment.
§ MR. NORVAL W. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)said he should like to illustrate the point before the Committee. The Lancashire County Council Technical Committee, finding a difficulty in understanding some of the arrangements for the management of evening continuation classes which they would have to conduct, communicated with the Board of Education, and received the following reply—
Adverting to your letter of the 11th inst. and your telegram received this morning, I am directed to state that the Board of Education cannot undertake to answer hypothetical questions turning upon points of law.The local authorities throughout the country required guidance in the matter, being desirous to act not in any sense of hostility to the law they would have to administer, but to enable them to prevent their business being thrown into a state of illegality. The Government should either frame a schedule explaining the meaning of the Act, or the Department should send out a circular as had been suggested.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)What I think the Committee is waiting for is that the Government should tell us how we are to meet what they cannot deny is a real difficulty. It cannot be denied that cases may, and probably will, arise in which there will be a conflict of opinion. Supposing the school board takes one 1446 view and the local authority takes an other, how is the deadlock to be met in that case? That is the difficulty, and we have received no reply from the Government as to how it is to be met. Surely that is a fair question, which the Government ought to answer. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will really tell us how he thinks it can be met. If it cannot be met by the Amendment before the House, the right hon. Gentleman should suggest means to prevent, as a consequence of this Bill, a conflict between the two jurisdictions. Therefore, I appeal to the Leader of the House to dispose of this question by pointing out how that probable and certainly possible conflict of opinion is to be dealt with if it arises.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)I could understand the position of hon. Gentlemen opposite, though I could not agree with them, if they made a demand that in this Bill there should be a definition of what is and what is not elementary education. That I could perfectly understand, although I think it would be quite impossible to accede to it in a measure of this character. But that is not the request that is being made. The request is that where the school board and the county council are in difficulties in determining the law the Education Department should determine it. But the Education Department has no more right to determine the law than either of the other two bodies. The right hon. Gentleman put a specific question to me. He asked, Is it not the business of the Government to tell the Committee how a conflict between a school board and a local authority should be dealt with, should it arise, as in certain cases it probably will arise? I apprehend that one of two courses may be taken by the bodies themselves. I can understand the county authority saying, "We think that the continuation schools and the higher grade schools should be continued for next year very much in the way they have been going on." If that were done, evidently there would be no conflict. Or the school board might go to the local authority and say, "Will you sanction this school, and that school, and the other school, or this class, and that class?" and the local authority 1447 might say either yes or no. If the latter course were adopted, and if the school board were in error in admitting some schools which ought to be excluded, there is no doubt that they could be surcharged, but there could be no conflict between the authorities, and the danger of being surcharged would of course be avoided by any school board which followed, for example, the advice given to the London School Board by the legal luminaries consulted by that board. I understand that eminent lawyers were consulted by that body, and that they laid down, without saying what or what was not the law, that if the school board kept within certain limits they were quite safe. That is all they need know or care about. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that, from the information we receive as to what is going on between the local authorities and the school boards in the country, there is no insoluble or difficult problem to be dealt with. The actual Amendment before the House would lead to the greatest inconvenience, and I do not believe any evil exists which requires a remedy of that character. Certainly on its merits we could not ask the Committee to agree to the proposal of the hon. Gentleman, and I hope they will not agree to it.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had referred school boards in the country to the opinion given by Mr. Asquith and Mr. Llewellyn Davies to the London School Board. But the right hon. Gentleman had evidently never read that opinion. It was an opinion as to the age of children who should be in the schools, and nothing else whatever. The right hon. Gentleman expected country school boards to know what advice had been given to the London School Board by their legal advisers, and he assumed that the authorities had legal ability and knowledge which they did not possess.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURWill the hon. Gentleman forgive me for a moment? All I suggested was, which is surely a common-sense suggestion, that in cases of douht the school board had better ask the opinion of the local authorities.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that evidently the right hon. Gentleman had 1448 never served on a local authority. What commonly happened was that in such matters county councils and county boroughs were advised by solicitors or barristers. Nearly all the clerks of the peace in the counties were barristers, and all the town clerks were solicitors or barristers. Many of the school boards had clerks who were not lawyers, but were trained educationists, who knew the Education Acts only. Therefore, in the consideration of that question, they would have a man with trained legal knowledge on the one hand, and a man of trained educational knowledge on the other. He would ask any lawyer, was there any more difficult client to advise than the client who had worked up the law with reference to his own particular case, and who could not be brought to grasp broad legal principles at all? That was the position the right hon. Gentleman asked them to accept.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThat is not the position. I do not ask these gentlemen to go into elaborate considerations of judgments or of statutes; all I ask is that one body when in doubt should consult the other, not on questions of law, but as to whether they would permit such and such a school, about which there was a doubt, to go on.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman had ever discussed one of those questions on a committee of a local authority he would know that he could not get men with strong opinions to give way in that manner. The school boards, first of all, would ask themselves which of their schools and classes required authorisation from the local authority. They would then present the list to the local authority, and what would happen in a great many cases would be that the local authority would say that for some of the schools and classes the school board did not require their authority at all, and the school board would reply that if they did not get the authority they would be surcharged. Then would follow a discussion as to the meaning of the Act and the judgment in the Cockerton case. The right hon. Gentleman never had to deal with the class of men frequently to be found on local authorities.
1449 They were men who had given a great deal of their time to local work, and who over-estimated their own capacity in dealing with it. Their obstinacy in holding to the opinions they had formed was not to be conquered by knowledge or wisdom, but only by the gentle suavity of the man who had to deal with them. The Vice-President said that the Cockerton judgment would apply to 2,000 schools, but the right hon. Gentleman's inspectors could tell him within twenty-four hours, certainly within three days, every one of the schools to which, in their opinion, the Cockerton judgment applied. The county councils and the town councils were adjourning for the holidays, and for six or seven weeks there would be no authority to which the school board could go, and when the local authorities met they would be absolutely ignorant of the subject, and would have to be instructed by the school boards as to their position. Where there was friendly feeling between the two bodies there would be no difficulty. The local authority would say to the school board "God bless you!" But in a town where the rates were heavy and the ratepayers were complaining of their burdens, as they almost always did, and where the local authority were anxious to cut down the rates, they would certainly use the opportunity given them of criticising the demands of the school board, and would cut down the estimates submitted to them by the board. The Amendment raised a question which the Government would have to face in another form. That was, whether they were going to leave those two authorities to wrangle it out between themselves, or whether guidance would be given to them. If no guidance were given to them there would be added to the feeling already growing up in connection with the Bill a feeling of personal antagonism between members of two local authorities, which would be very deplorable.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSON (Oxford University)said he could not help thinking that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to work the Amendment as it stood. He was quite prepared to recognise the difficulty in which the local authorities might find themselves 1450 in interpreting the law, and he was not quite so sanguine as the First Lord of the Treasury in hoping that they would immediately set to work and find out what was and what was not legal. He had sometimes heard the First Lord with admiration mingled with amusement when he described what he was pleased to call the "legal mind." But it was not the legal mind which was the technical mind in such cases as the present. When legal questions came to be dealt with among laymen it would be found that the attitude of mind in which the average layman approached legal questions was in the assumption that laws were passed not to facilitate action, but to create every conceivable difficulty. Therefore he recognised that the local authorities would find themselves face to face with the difficulties which had been mentioned, and which would largely be of their own creation. The Committee had had what might be called an authoritative account of the Cockerton judgment from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Cockerton judgment decided two things, and two things only. One was that a school board might not give education to adults, and the other was that it might not give education, as a school board, outside the limits of the Whitehall Code. The first question—what was a child—had already been settled by the London School Board to their own satisfaction after consulting eminent legal authorities; but it might be that other local authorities might not accept what was regarded as satisfactory by the London School Board. After all, no great harm would result if, during this year of emergency, different local authorities decided this question in different ways. Then as to giving education outside the limits of the Whitehall Code, was there any great difficulty in ascertaining what was or what was not in the Whitehall Code? He would suggest to the Vice-President to lend a favourable ear to the suggestion of the hon. Member for North Camberwell. If there was any difficulty in ascertaining what was in the Whitehall Code, why should not the Board of Education send out a circular giving the neces- 1451 sary guidance, as was done constantly by the Home Office to those who had to do with the administration of the law in counties and boroughs? If the Vice-President would regard that suggestion favourably, he could not but think that the only real difficulty would be met, and that hon. Members opposite and the local authorities might set aside some of their rather exaggerated fears.
§ MR. WALLACE (Perth)said he desired to know what elementary education was. The First Lord of the Treasury had stated that that was a reasonable request, though he added that it might not possibly be granted on the present occasion. If a schedule were added to the Bill defining elementary education, he was quite sure that his hon. friend would withdraw his Amendment. The Amendment, if accepted, would, however, get them out of the legal difficulty altogether, and neither the school board nor the local authority would have to consider what elementary education was, as the declaration of the Education Board that schools came under the operation of the Bill would be sufficient. That was a simple solution of the matter, and the Amendment was one which ought to be accepted.
§ MR. TAYLOR (Lancashire, Radcliffe)said he was afraid the Vice-President had somewhat misapprehended what was desired. He said that the Board of Education would have to go through 2,000 accounts to see what kind of education had been given in each case. What was required was a schedule which the school boards could apply themselves. He thought it was too bad of the First Lord of the Treasury to complain that they had not asked for a very much larger Amendment.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI am very unfortunate in my mode of expression. I never suggested that. What I said was that I could understand the attitude of hon. Members in asking for a definition of elementary education, but I did not think it was appropriate to the Bill.
§ MR. TAYLORsaid that, at any rate, the First Lord thought that it would be less objectionable if they asked for that, instead of moving the Amendment, and it was too bad that the right hon. Gentleman should complain.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI did not complain.
§ MR. TAYLORsaid that his hon. friends were showing their confidence by asking the Education Board to define the rules. If the Cockerton judgment had been full, final and complete, there would have been a full statement of the case. But that decision, as he understood, was not a full and final deliverance, and he thought they were entitled to ask for guidance in the working of the Bill. The Amendment was not an obstructive Amendment. They did not approve of the Bill, but they desired that it should work as well as possible, and there was no reason why they should not endeavour to remove as many causes of friction as they could. They were the friends of education, and not its enemies. The Amendment had been discussed as if in all cases there would be friction between the local authorities and the school boards. But he submitted that the Bill would not be a workable measure, even in cases in which the two authorities were agreed. The Bill only enabled them to carry on a school if it were unlawful. Supposing a school was attended by young people who were in that peculiar category of being neither children nor adults—persons, say, about sixteen or seventeen years of age—he could easily understand that both the board school and the local authority would desire to carry on such a school. Why should not the central authority save the local authorities the time and trouble and expense of ascertaining what was legal and what was not legal? He would support the Amendment.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 185; Noes, 138. (Division List No. 356.)
1455| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Arkwright, John Stanhope. | Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bailey, James (Walworth) |
| Aird, Sir John | Arrol, Sir William | Bain, Colonel James Robert |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Baird, John George Alexander |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. | Penn, John |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Percy, Earl |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Higginbottom, S. W. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampatead | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Purvis, Robert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry | Randles, John S. |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Hoult, Joseph | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Brodriok, Rt. Hn. St. John | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Renwick, George |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Ropner, Col. Robert |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Rutherford, John |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Kenyon, Hn. G. T. (Denbigh) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Knowles, Lees | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sharpe, Wm. Edward T. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Lawson, John Grant | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Faren'm | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Spear, John Ward |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lowe, Francis William | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lucas, Col Francis (Lowestoft) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Stroyan, John |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Macdona, John Cumming | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Maconochie, A. W. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Manners, Lord Cecil | Valentia, Viscount |
| Finch, George H. | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Wanklyn, James Leslis |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wason, John Catheart (Orkney) |
| Flower, Ernest | Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Fredk. G. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Mitchell, William | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Gardner, Ernest | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne |
| Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets | Morgan, David J. (Walthm'w | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morrison, James Archibald | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | Mount, Wm. Arthur | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Greene, Sir E. W. (B'ryS. Edm'nds | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Gretton, John | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath | Wylie, Alexander |
| Groves, James Grimble | Nicholson, William Graham | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hain, Edward | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | |
| Holder, Augustus | Parkes, Ebenezer | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Cawley, Frederick |
| Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Asher, Alexander | Burns, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Burt, Thomas | Craig, Robert Hunter |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Buxton, Sydney Charles | Cullinan, J. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Caine, William Sproston | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) |
| Bell, Richard | Caldwell, James | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) |
| Boland, John | Cameron, Robert | Delany, William |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Carew, James Laurence | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Causton, Richard Knight | Doogan, P. C. |
| Duffy, William J. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Elibank, Master of | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Dermott, Patrick | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Kenna, Reginald | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarth'n | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Moulton, John Fletcher | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Gilhooly, James | Murphy, John | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Grant, Corrie | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N. | Strachey, Edward |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Willian | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Harwood, George | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Md | Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tomkinson, James |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Tully, Jasper |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Wallace, Robert |
| Helme, Norval Watson | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Holland, William Henry | O'Dowd, John | Weir, James Galloway |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Horniman, Frederick John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Malley, William | Whiteley, George (Yorks, W. R. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. | O'Mara, James | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U. | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W. |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Paulton, James Mellor | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Lambert, George | Philipps, John Wynford | Young, Samuel |
| Langley, Batty | Pirie, Duncan V. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rea, Russell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.Herbert Roberts and Mr. Alfred Hutton. |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Reddy, M. | |
| Lloyd-George, David | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | |
| Lough, Thomas | Redmond, William (Clare) | |
| Lundon, W. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)said his object in moving his Amendment was to secure that the local authorities which dealt with the schools and classes under the Bill should be of a distinctly educational character. He understood that the view of the Government was that the work of supervision should be entrusted to an authority as nearly akin as possible to the new local authority which it was proposed to set up for secondary education next year. He wished to remind the Committee that all the good work which had been attributed to the county and borough councils had been done almost entirely by the technical instruction committees. In the second place, those technical instruction committees were very often of a composite character. The London Technical Instruction Committee had a majority of members of the county council, but also representatives from all the great educational institutions in the country, and included also a small number of members of the London School 1456 Board. He had a list of no less than forty-one committees which had been constituted on the composite principle, and he found also that their members in certain cases included representatives of university colleges, secondary schools, and very often school boards. It seemed to him that the arrangement contemplated under the Bill could be far better carried out by such a body than by a body containing no other elements than members of county or borough councils. He himself was chairman of a composite technical committee of a county council, and he recognised to the full the great value of its co-optative element. It was all very well to decry experts, but experts were men who represented either a special body or who had a special knowledge of a question, and in dealing with educational matters experts were of the highest value. The technical instruction committee of which he was chairman included the chief inspector and the district and diocesan inspectors, who were in touch with all the elementary schools in the 1457 county, and in that way had a knowledge that did not fall to the lot of the local authorities. The committee also included members of non-county boroughs, and he found that that method of co-operation was most useful. The Government themselves had adopted the composite principle, as they had established in more than half the county and county borough council organisations for promoting secondary education. Those organisations were usually the technical Instruction committees of the councils, and were generally of a composite character. Then the Secondary Education Commission recommended that a third of the members of each educational body should consist of members of the county council, a third of members of the school board, and that a third should be co-opted. He did not care what was the exact proportion, but his point was that a large element should consist of what were called experts, who had given special interest to educational matters. In the Government Education Bills it was always contemplated that the work should be done by bodies containing other members than members of the county and borough councils. That principle seemed to be recognised by the Government and also by the Royal Commission, and was therefore a principle which ought to be applied to the present Bill. He had no doubt that the Vice-President would say that the county and borough councils could and would delegate their powers to the technical instruction committees, but there seemed to be very considerable doubt whether, under the Bill as it stood, the councils could delegate their powers. At any rate, there was very great doubt as to whether they could make the technical instruction committees executive. He would not argue the point of law, but he would ask his right hon. friend to consider whether it would not be necessary, if the power of delegation was to exist, and if the technical instruction committees were to be made executive, that some special words should be inserted. He contended that the simplest way was to give powers to the technical instruction committees. Some of the county councils were in a very awkward-position. His own county council were asked to consider the matter on the day that the 1458 Bill was introduced. How could they possibly take action then? It seemed to him somewhat unconstitutional for the Board of Education to send round circulars to various bodies with reference to a Bill which had not even been introduced. No doubt they did it from the best motives, but it was impossible for the county councils to delegate to the technical instruction committees their powers under a Bill which they had not seen. Were the eighty-eight members of his council to be brought together to delegate powers under the Bill, and to be called together again in September for the sole purpose of approving the recommendation of the technical instruction committee? Then there were county councils which would not delegate their powers to technical instruction committees, and who would decide the matter off-hand themselves. What would be the result? It would be, that where the majority desired to discriminate between schools that ought and ought not to be carried on, they would only be able to deal with them en masse. If the Government wished to advance the cause of education, if they wished really to stop schools which were useless and extravagant, and to continue only those which were in the best interests of the public, let them accept his Amendment. If they desired to exclude as far as possible mere party spirit, mere political considerations, from this matter, and to resolve the question in the true interests of education; if they desired to obtain the best practical results, and to make a further advance towards that ideal authority they intended to set up in a future Bill, let them accept his Amendment, or some similar proposal.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, after the word 'applicable,' to insert the words 'the technical instruction committee of.' "—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid that, while he agreed with the hon. Member that technical instruction committees were bodies to which educational functions might most properly be delegated he was compelled to point out that the 1459 Government had two objections to the Amendment. First—and this objection was, he believed, almost insuperable—every local authority had not set up a technical instruction committee. Consequently, if the Amendment were accepted, the Government would have to make provision in the Bill for cases in which no technical instruction committee existed. At this time of the session the hon. Member would admit that it was impossible to accept an Amendment requiring so great an alteration in the Bill. The second objection was that the function which the local authority had to exercise under the Bill was to authorise the application of the ratepayers' money. The whole principle of the Bill was to take an authority which generally represented the ratepayers, and to leave to that authority the power of saying whether the ratepayers' money should be applied to these purposes. The position, in a word, was this. The school boards had schools to which they had no power to apply the ratepayers' money. The Bill provided that they should get the consent of those who represented the ratepayers, and then they might apply the rates to these schools. The technical instruction committees, however excellent they might be as educational bodies, had no authority over the rates. They could not spend a sixpence of the ratepayers' money without going to the county or borough council, which had the authority to direct the expenditure of the rates. The Government, therefore, had selected, to give this sanction, a body representing the ratepayers and having a general right to spend the ratepayers' money. Indeed, it would not be consistent on their part to take that power out of the hands of those who directly represented the ratepayers and to give it to a committee which, however excellent it might be for educational purposes, had no power whatever over the rates. He was sorry that the Government were, for these reasons, unable to accept the Amendment.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.)said it had been suggested that the Government were indisposed to accept any Amendment, in order that they might facilitate the passage of the Bill by avoiding the necessity for a Report 1460 stage. He was not inclined, however, to accept that view. Still, even if it were so, he was sure that there were many hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House who would place education far above party feeling and would do their best to improve the Bill. The sole question with them was whether Amendments put forward would really improve the Bill, and in the present instance he thought the answer was conclusive, for the proposal to substitute technical instruction committees as the local authority would be absolutely unworkable, inasmuch as those committees, were the creation of the Technical Instruction Act, 1889, the provisions of which Act were permissive in their character. Although the power of appointing technical instruction committees had been largely used with beneficial effects, the practice had been by no means universal, and consequently in many cases additional machinery would have to be set up in the Bill to deal with the places where these committees were non-existent. The Amendment could not therefore be assented to on principle, and he was disposed to hope on the whole that, in the future, the Government would adhere to the Technical Instruction Act of 1889, by keeping the addition of experts and others by co-option permissive. In the late Bill that permissive character was changed into one of compulsion, contrary to the Bill of last year, and he happened to know that that provision was not generally acceptably regarded by those who took an interest in these matters. They had had some experience of the presence of experts upon these technical instruction committees, and, while not saying a word against their co-operation—for he believed they were much indebted to them for their aid—he would point out that the value of their work was largely attributable to the fact that their co-option was permissive, and he was afraid that to make their presence compulsory might be to add an element of friction. There was, as he had admitted, a great deal to be said in favour of the principle of having educational experts; but still he would like to point out that the self-called educational experts were chiefly responsible for 1461 the present condition of education, as they had by no means kept it up to date from a general or mercantile point of view. Again, he doubted whether they ought to extend the principle of co-option and indirect election; and he held that the local authority which had the expense to bear should be the final authority. He also doubted whether the technical instruction committee should become, like a watch committee, a statutory committee not reporting, and irresponsible to the council. The real value of experts was as advisers when their advice was sought, and why they should not go through the process of election like other public men, and so add to the power of the councils as a whole, he did not know.
THE CHAIRMANOrder, order! The hon. Gentleman is now going rather beyond the Amendment before the Committee.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he had only desired to point out the way in which the presence of educational experts had been beneficial or otherwise, which was one end sought to be gained by the Amendment. The Amendment had been supported on the ground that it was in accord with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, although the hon. Member had made the admission that the distinction drawn by the Commission between boroughs and counties was wrong in principle.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEwas understood to say his argument had been that it was necessary to lay stress upon the Report of the Royal Commission.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he understood his hon. friend to say that the authority of the county council was one which might well have been maintained, although he would not contend that the distinction drawn in the Report between county and borough councils should be maintained. At any rate, it was useless to cite to the boroughs the decisions of the Royal Commission, for at the very outset they protested strongly against the composition of that Commission, on which there was large county council but no municipal representation, and 1462 they could scarcely be expected therefore to accept views which were in favour of county councils and against borough councils. At any rate, he believed that the distinction drawn by the Commission had to a large extent been falsified by experience. In the rural districts education was largely behindhand. Again, while many boroughs had already rated themselves for these purposes, he had yet to learn that a single county had taken the same position, and rural education was comparatively most backward. Therefore he repeated that the recommendation of a differential system as against boroughs and in favour of counties was not likely to be accepted by the municipalities. And in next year's Bill he urged the Government to give the most careful consideration to the case of the non-county boroughs, many of which had done the best educational work. Those which had rated themselves had been assured by the Vice-President that they should have control of their schools as of right, and they would also claim, in the interest of education in their localities, that any borough which could satisfy the Board of Education that it had the means and the wish to conduct its own education, and that it would be to the interest of education in its locality, should also, with the sanction of the Board of Education, be able to be treated a local authority. Lastly, were the councils in future legislation to delegate their powers to the technical instruction committee, and were those committees to become statutory committees irresponsible to the council, both financially and otherwise? He admitted that there might be considerable objection to that. But if the council could not delegate to the committee the detailed examination of a question for report, objection might be taken to all the work which the councils had to delegate. At present they did practically refer most subjects to the bodies likely to give experienced advice, properly reserving for themselves the final authority to decide whether they would act in one direction or another. He did not agree that the adoption of this policy would lead to friction. He believed that both the local authorities and 1463 the technical instruction committees would be prepared to deal with these questions in a broad spirit, and that the local authorities would place at the disposal of the educational body the large municipal resources which they possessed, and that they would do their best to save these schools, the value of which he was the first to acknowledge.
§ MR. LAMBERTsaid that the insuperable objection in the view of the Vice-President to the Amendment was that many local authorities had no technical instruction committee. That, however, could easily be got over by the insertion of certain words entrusting the duty in such cases to the councils themselves. He cordially supported the Amendment. In his own county he had had some experience of the technical instruction committee, and they there had great difficulty in preventing the county council from using the whisky money for the relief of the rates instead of applying it for the purposes of technical education. The chairman of that committee was a brother of the late Education Minister, Sir Arthur Acland, and it was only through the efforts of a very powerful technical instruction committee they were able to get the money used for its proper purpose in the county of Devonshire. That was a concrete case, showing that oftentimes the technical instruction committee was more educationally inclined than the whole council. This would naturally be the case, because the councils in selecting their committee very properly would select for the technical education committee the men most interested in education. It would, therefore, be much better in this temporary Bill to place the control in the hands of this committee. Another point which the Vice-President had not appreciated was the summoning together of the county councils for the purpose of delegating the authority. In the case of the Devonshire County Council 103 voters would have to be summoned from all parts of the county, some of whom would have to start the night before the meeting to be present. Surely it was hardly worth while for the sake of a temporary measure to put the county council to so much inconvenience. Why should the right hon. Gentleman prefer that the 1464 technical instruction committee should not settle the question, when they were the best educational authority? He would give a precedent. The Standing Joint Committee was a statutory committee, and could settle matters without reference to the county council. It could even requisition money. All this technical instruction committee would have to do was, not to requisition money, but merely to sanction expenditure incurred by another authority. He therefore strongly supported the Amendment, believing that it would add to the value of the Bill.
§ MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)under stood that, in the opinion of some Members, the fatal objection to the Amendment was that the technical education committees now in existence had no power to issue precepts direct for educational purposes. But neither had any other committee of the county council, such, for instance, as the Foot and Mouth Committee or the Swine Fever Committee. He was afraid that if this Amendment was not carried, in many cases before the county councils could get to work the year would be over, and in the meantime the people would be starved of their education. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for East Somerset in the complaint he made with regard to the circular issued to the county councils. Nobody knew of it, and therefore many interested in educational affairs had already lost three months in this way. Great injury would be done to the secondary education of this country unless some such provision as that now under discussion was agreed to by the Committee. He was not in favour of the education committees of county councils as they were now arranged. He entirely disagreed with co-opted head masters of endowed grammar schools being members of the committee; he thought it was a highly improper arrangement, and ought to be stopped. He did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had made any case at all against the Amendment. He had only argued as to the form of it. If the Government did not intend to accept any Amendment at all, then he thought it would be convenient if the First Lord of the Treasury would inform the Committee of that fact as soon as possible.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid he regarded the Bill purely as a temporary measure, intended to save the country from an immediate and pressing difficulty in which they had become involved in consequence of school boards having spent money in a way which the courts of law had declared o be illegal. Therefore any views he expressed as to the Amendment would not be influenced in the least degree by the notion that it laid down any principle for the future. He should deal with the Amendment simply from the point of view of desiring to adopt the most practical and convenient course—the course which would enable the question to be dealt with most quickly and by the bodies which would bring the best knowledge to bear upon it. Two objections had been taken by the Vice-President. The first was that some local authorities had no technical instruction committee. That was quite true, but their number was not large, and the matter could be remedied by the Amendment being amended by the insertion of the words "where such committees exist." As he looked upon the matter as purely a question of convenience, he did not think the fact that one rule would apply to cases where there was a technical instruction committee and another where there was not, need be regarded as a fatal objection to the Amendment. The second objection was that the power of authorising the expenditure of the ratepayers' money ought not to be given to any body but the local authority. That objection was not consistent with the position taken up by the Government in their previous Bill, because then the Government proposed to give a rating power to an authority which was not composed entirely of representatives of the ratepayers. Many Members, doubtless, would have objections to such a power being given to any but an elected authority, but in any case that objection was not one to be raised by the Government after the line they had taken in their previous Bill. Moreover, on the technical instruction committee there was a majority of elected members, so that the voting of the ratepayers' money would be controlled by the ratepayers' representatives. That was the view taken by himself and others on the Secondary Education Commission. They 1466 thought the secondary education authority ought to have the power to issue a precept to the local authority who imposed the rate, although there were to be on the secondary education authority persons not directly elected. Therefore he felt that the Vice-President had given no real ground for rejecting the Amendment. There was, however, a third point which might possibly be of some importance, and that was whether there was any precedent for an Act of Parliament giving a statutory power to a committee which was not a statutory committee. This was a committee chosen by the local authority themselves, to enable them the better to discharge the duty which the legislature had thrown upon them, but so far as he knew that was not recognised by statute. That would be a grave objection if this Bill were not a temporary measure, but really he regarded the Bill as being so abnormal and exceptional a case that it ought not to lay down any precedent for the future, and that any arrangement now made was an arrangement which could not properly be appealed to hereafter as being an instance of a decision of Parliament in regard to any particular policy. On the whole, as at present advised, he was inclined to think that the balance of convenience lay in accepting the Amendment, because it would put the power in the hands of an authority who had more knowledge of the matter in hand than the local authority itself could have, and also because it would enable the matter to be more promptly dealt with, instead of exposing it to the long delays which must ensue before it could be dealt with by the county council.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI hope that the Committee will come to a decision shortly upon this Amendment. The fundamental reason why the Government do not feel themselves able to accept it is, that if it were accepted it would practically make a technical instruction committee, where it existed, an authority over the county council, from which it derived all its powers, in such an important matter as the expenditure of the rate.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid that he cordially endorsed everything the hon. Mem- 1467 ber for East Somerset had said about the extraordinary educational value of the work done by technical education committees. The Amendment raised the whole question of the form of municipal control of education. If they were to have municipal control at all, it must be a genuine and not a spurious form of municipal control. The House had been invited to consider this control in the Bill of 1896, and the Vice-President said then that the Committee would be like a watch committee, largely consisting of co-opted members, but such an arrangement as that was not proper municipal control. If they were to have municipal control let them vest the power in the county council, the parent council directly responsible to the ratepayers. He thought the line which the Committee ought to take was that they could not allow any direct statutory powers to be handed over to any body not responsible to the ratepayers. London had had a very bitter experience of handing over powers in that way in the case of the old Metropolitan Board of Works. Let the parent council have the powers vested in them; they were quite prepared to delegate all the executive powers they held to any delegated body, but the right of the parent council to direct the manner in which this money will be spent must be preserved.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAY (West Ham, N.)said he had been told that many county councils would hesitate to place these powers in the hands of their technical instruction committee. He would like to know whether these words intended to imply that this duty must be exercised by the county councils themselves, or whether a county council would have power to delegate it to its technical instruction committee with power to act.
§ MR. NORVAL W. HELMEsaid he wished to make a suggestion to the Government. The words in the Bill seemed to suggest that the initiative should come from the school boards, and not from the county council. At the present moment there was a large amount of work conducted by the school boards which if they declined to carry on would be thrown upon the county council, or it must stop. The county councils were 1468 sufficiently interested in education to undertake this work if put on them by Parliament; but the time between the date when this Bill would become law and that when the arrangements for the continuation schools must be completed was so short that he appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury to give a distinct assurance to the Committee and make it clear that nothing in the Bill would compel a school board of necessity to go to the county council first, but that the county council if it chose might take the initiative and pass a resolution empowering school boards to carry on their work for this year, and so save the amour propre of those now responsible for it.
§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON, Dublin University)said that as he understood the Bill the county council must as a whole be responsible for the ultimate decision. They must be the body responsible for the striking of the rate, and for seeing that it was divided in the proper way. There was no doubt that the council could delegate to the technical instruction committee the operation of finding out to what extent they ought to allow the same system of education to be carried on, though they must remain responsible to the ratepayers for seeing that the work was properly carried ont and the rate properly struck. It was clear, also, that the county council not only had the right but the duty of saying whether they would empower the school boards to carry on the work which they had been hitherto carrying on, subject to certain conditions; but where a county council was satisfied that the work as carried on by the school board was properly carried on, and wished to see it continued, they might pass a resolution without any application from the school board and without limiting conditions.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTpointed out that there was no duty cast upon the county council at all; it was the school board that had to raise the rate.
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid the school board raised no rates.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANT(who spoke amid continued interruption and cries 1469 of "Divide") was understood to say what happened was that the school board, having ascertained what their expenditure was likely to be, asked by way of a precept the amount which they required, and the overseers struck a rate; so that it was not the county council which struck the rate at all. What he rose, however, to point out was the difficulty in which the critics of this Bill were placed by really not knowing what the Bill was. The First Lord of the Treasury had stated that it was a Bill to establish a broad principle, but the Vice-President said it was a mere emergency Bill.
§ SIR J. GORSTI did not say it was a mere emergency Bill; I said it was an emergency Bill.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that the Bill could only be described as a "first aid to the wounded" Bill. Nobody knew what it was to do except that it was to do harm. If the Bill contained a prin-
§ ciple, then he was opposed to the Amendment upon the ground which had been laid down by the First Lord of the Treasury that, if they were to have direct control, it should be as direct as possible; but if it was only an emergency Bill he was not opposed to the Amendment, because, as a piece of mere machinery, it was justified and helpful. So that they came back to the position that some more information ought to be given with regard to the Bill. As he understood, this was a Bill—
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEasked leave to withdraw the Amendment, but leave was refused.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 94; Noes, 293. (Division List No. 357.)
1473| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Helme, Norval Watson | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Asher, Alexander | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rea, Russell |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Brigg, John | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Horniman, Frederick John | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Jacoby, James Alfred | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Jones, David Brynmor (Swan'sa | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Burt, Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvons.) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Kennedy, Patrick James | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Cameron, Robert | Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lambert, George | Spencer, Rt Hn CR (Northants.) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Langley, Batty | Strachey, Edward |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Crombie, John William | Lough, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Thomas, Abel (Glamorgan, E. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Mather, William | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Doogan, P. C. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Tully, Jasper |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Whitaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. | O'Mara, James | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Pearson, Sir Weetman | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Warner and Dr. Macnamara. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Phillips, John Wynford | |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Pickard, Benjamin | |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. |
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Anson, Sir William Reynell | Arrol, Sir William |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Arkwright, John Stanhope | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Fisher, William Hayes | Lowe, Francis William |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lowther, Rt. Hn. J. (Kent) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Flower, Ernest | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) | Gardner, Ernest | Lundon, W. |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Garfit, William | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond. | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Bell, Richard | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gore, Hn. F. S. Ormsby-(Linc. | M'Dermott, Patrick |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Boland, John | Grant, Corrie | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Bond, Edward | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Green, Walford D (Wednesbury | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds | Middlemore, John T. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Grenfell, William Henry | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Brassey, Albert | Gretton, John | Mitchell, William |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Groves, James Grimble | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Burns, John | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Caldwell, James | Hain, Edward | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. JA (Glasgow | Hamilton, Rt Hn. Ld. G (Midd'x | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Hardy, Laurence (K'nt, Ashf'rd | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Harwood, George | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hayden, John Patrick | Murphy, John |
| Chamberlam, Rt. Hn J. (Birm.) | Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Heaton, John Henniker | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Helder, Augustus | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Newnes, Sir George |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hiekman, Sir Alfred | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Higginbottom, S. W. | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Holland, William Henry | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hope, JF (Sheffield, Brightside) | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Horner, Frederick William | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | O'Dowd, John |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hoult, Joseph | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | O'Malley, William |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Hudson, George Bickersteth | O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens |
| Cullinan, J. | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Delany, William | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S Geo. | Joyce, Michael | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh | Percy, Earl |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. R. |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Kimber, Henry | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Knowles, Lees | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Labouchere, Henry | Priestley, Arthur |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. | Purvis, Robert |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Randles, John S. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Law, Andrew Bonar | Rankin, Sir James |
| Elibank, Master of | Lawson, John Grant | Reddy, M. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. | Renwick, George |
| Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Levy, Maurice | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Ffrench, Peter | Lewis, John Herbert | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Field, William | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Charles T. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lloyd-George, David | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Finch, George H. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Robinson, Brooke |
| Rollit, Albert Kaye | Stroyan, John | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Ropner, Colonel Robert | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Round, James | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Rutherford, John | Sullivan, Donal | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. | Whitmore, Chas. Algernon |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex. | Thomas, J. A. (Glam'gan, Gower | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J | Thornton, Percy M. | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (I. of Wight) | Tollemache, Henry James | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Valentia, Viscount | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wallace, Robert | Wylie, Alexander |
| Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Wanklyn, James Leslie | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) | Warde, Col. C. E. | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Warr, Augustus Frederick | Young, Samuel |
| Spear John Ward | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney | |
| Stanley, Hn Arthur (Ormskirk) | Webb, Col. William George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taun'n | |
| Stone, Sir Benjamin | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs), who had on the Paper a series of Amendments to constitute as the authority in Wales "the county governing body appointed under the Intermediate Education (Wales) Act," said the Amendment he first proposed to move was preliminary to one which stood a little lower on the Paper. The right hon. Gentleman would probably see his way to accept this Amendment, having regard to the fact that in Wales there was already such an educational board as the Government desired to establish by this Bill. In Wales the principle for which the right hon. Gentleman was contending had already been adopted and applied, and therefore he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept this Amendment. The one great difficulty with regard to the application of this Bill was that there was no local information in the county council; but in Wales the county governing body had been adopted; they had their local bodies, and those local bodies would advise the local governing body as to what ought to be done by the local bodies representing both the board schools and voluntary schools. There was a perfect organisation already in Wales, and it was therefore unnecessary to set up a separate organisation. Did the right hon. Gentleman propose to accept this Amendment?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURNo. It is similar to the Amendment we have just disposed of.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEexpressed his regret that the Amendment could not be 1474 accepted. He reminded the right hon. Gentleman that the very body he desired to establish in England already existed in Wales; that the Education (No. 1) Bill, which had been withdrawn, and from which this Bill before the Committee was taken, was itself modelled upon the Intermediate Education Act for Wales, which had been carried through by a Unionist administration; and that that scheme was working at the present moment without difficulty, and giving perfect satisfaction. He contended, under those circumstances, that it would be a cruel thing to dislocate the whole educational system in Wales by setting up a new authority. He therefore appealed to the right hon. Gentleman not to place any difficulty in the way of Welsh education, and, when they had already a perfect system, set up a crude system of this kind. Nobody could doubt that one of the difficulties would be the lack of local knowledge in regard to the conditions of each school. In a large county such as Glamorganshire, how could the county council possibly advise as to the conditions to be imposed on a continuation or a higher-grade school in a corner of the county? The opinion of the local representative might, it was true, be taken, but that would practically be delegating to one individual work which had hitherto been carried on by a whole body elected by the ratepayers. If, however, the matter was referred to the county governing body, that body could consult with its local governing body in the particular district—a body composed of men elected for their local knowledge, and than whom there could not be a better body for the 1475 purpose. It could not be contended that the county council could do the work as well as the county governing body. Why then should not the Amendment be accepted, unless it was that every Amendment, whether good or bad, was to be refused? He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, after the word 'applicable,' to insert the words 'in England.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI think the hon. Gentleman somewhat mistook the purport of the interruption I made in the course of his speech when I said that this Amendment was similar to the one we have just disposed of. I did not at all mean to imply that the county governing body in Wales occupied a position similar to that of a technical instruction committee in England. I quite admit that there are great differences, and I am prepared most cordially to agree that the educational work done by the county governing bodies is worthy of very high praise. But I would point out that there is one fundamental parity between this and the last Amendment, which goes to the very root of the matter. The chief reason why we thought it impossible to accept the last Amendment was that it proposed to give the technical instruction committees independent powers of rating or of authorising the levying of a rate over the head of the county council. It appears to me that that would also be the case with the county governing body in Wales, and I do not think such a proposal could be assented to by the House. The hon. Member laid it down that the local authority could not consult the county governing body—
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEWhat I said was that the county governing body had local governing bodies which might be called into consultation, and which could give advice in regard to local circumstances. That is the advantage of the system.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURAt all events, if we retain the local authority, as I hope we shall, because it is the rating authority, 1476 I would point out that that authority will be able to take the advice of the county governing body, which I quite recognise is a body whose advice would be valuable in any case that might arise. Under these circumstances, I hope the hon. Member will not think it necessary to press his Amendment to a division.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)deeply regretted the refusal of the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment. The effect of the Bill would now be practically to set up two different secondary education authorities, a course which would not tend to smoothness of working or to economy or efficiency. The right hon. Gentleman had done them the justice to say, as others in official positions had already said, that these county governing bodies had been remarkably successful in the work they had undertaken. He himself had been chairman of one of these bodies for ten years, and to those who generally considered that Wales was a seething hotbed of political, religious, and sectarian passion he might say that during those ten years, although religious instruction according to the principles of the Christian faith was given in their schools, that body had not had one division on party or sectarian lines. On both the county governing body and the local governing bodies the members had joined heart and soul in furthering the work of secondary education, and there could not have been more complete concentration on that particular work anywhere. To him, who had been so closely connected with the work, not only on the county governing body, but also on the Central Board of Wales, it was a matter of the utmost pain that practically another secondary authority was being set up. The county councils, who were the rating authority, in this connection had trusted the county governing bodies absolutely.
§ ME. A. J. BALFOURThat can still go on.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that that was where the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken. The county councils had no power to delegate this work to the county governing bodies. The only objection raised by the right hon. Gentle- 1477 man to the Amendment was on the question of rating, and, as far as that was concerned, the county councils had invariably trusted the county governing bodies. The Government also had trusted them, because in the Bill of last year the authority for education then proposed was specifically stated in the Bill as the county governing body in Wales. If the present Bill was intended to be a precedent for the future it would be absurd indeed, under the circumstances, to create a new body to deal with secondary education in Wales. If, on the other hand, it was not to be a precedent, but merely an arrangement for one year, he appealed that the duty should be placed for that year in the hands of the county governing bodies, who were the most trusted educational authorities in Wales.
§ MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)thought the hon. Member had really given away the case for the Amendment. He had not at all answered the point as to the county authority being the rating authority, but had said that the county authority and the Government had had the utmost confidence in the county governing body, and that the county authority could not delegate their power to the county governing body. It was, however, a question not of delegation, but of consultation, which was a very different matter. Just as in England the county council would consult the technical instruction committee, and, if it was wise, take action in accordance with the report of the committee, unless there was good reason to the contrary, so in Wales the county councils would consult the local governing bodies and act upon their advice, but they would remain the local authority responsible for the rating.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTSdesired to associate himself with all that had been said in regard to the admirable work done by the country governing bodies in Wales and the complete confidence the country reposed in them. In the Education Bill recently withdrawn the county governing bodies in Wales were specifically made the education authority. If the right hon. Gentleman could give an assurance that in the Bill to be introduced next year, under which 1478 a secondary system throughout the country was to be established, there would be a similar provision, it would to a great extent relieve the minds of those in Wales who were deeply interested in the question, and who were most anxious that nothing should be done to interfere with the usefulness of the work at present done by the county governing bodies.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIn response to the appeal of the hon. Member, I can assure him that there is no ground whatever for thinking that the scheme to be introduced next year will differ in the respect to which he refers from the previous proposal. I think the position there given to the county governing bodies in Wales is probably the right one.
§ MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH (Anglesey)thought it very significant that although Wales had a few Conservative Members the Welsh representatives were absolutely unanimous in this request. What real harm could the Amendment do? If the Government were desirous of assisting education in Wales, why could they not meet the Welsh Members in this respect? The right hon. Gentleman had admitted that the principle for which they were contending was the right principle.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIf this Amendment brought the present Bill into the precise position of Bill No. 1 there would be a strong argument in its favour; but under the present Bill it would make the county governing bodies the rating authority. That was never contemplated in Bill No. 1, nor could we possibly contemplate it.
§ MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid they desired to avoid this duplication of authorities for the next twelve months, and perhaps after. In the small counties in Wales, in addition to the voluntary schools and the board schools, there would be the county governing bodies under the Act of 1889, and the county councils under the present Bill. Surely it was not beyond the wit of man to do now that which it was admitted would be possible in twelve months time.
§ MR. BRYCEwas not certain that Scotch Members and others fully appre- 1479 ciated the position occupied by the county governing bodies in Wales. It was there the secondary education authority. The theory of the Government was that the education given in the continuation and higher grade schools was secondary education, and ought, therefore, to be under the authority having charge of secondary education. The county governing bodies
§ were the authorities charged with secondary education in Wales, and consequently, prima facie, they were the bodies whose opinion ought to be taken in this matter.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 157; Noes, 241. (Division List No. 358.)
1483| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Hayden, John Patrick | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Pickard, Benjamin |
| Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Asher, Alexander | Helme, Norval Watson | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Price, Robert John |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Priestley, Arthur |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Holland, William Henry | Rea, Russell |
| Bell, Richard | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Reddy, M. |
| Blake, Edward | Horniman, Frederick John | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Boland, John | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Brigg, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jones, William (Carnarvons.) | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Joyce, Michael | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Burns, John | Kearley, Hudson E. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kennedy, Patrick James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Caine, William Sproston | Lambert, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Caldwell, James | Langley, Batty | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) |
| Cameron Robert | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Carew, James Laurence | Levy, Maurice | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lewis, John Herbert | Strachey, Edward |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lough, Thomas | Sullivan, Donal |
| Channing, Francis Alston | Lundon, W. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Macdonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Crombie, John William | M'Dermott, Patrick | Thomas, David A. G. (Merthyr) |
| Cullinan, J. | Mather, William | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Tomkinson, James |
| Delany, William | Murphy, John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Tully, Jasper |
| Doogan, P. C. | Newnes, Sir George | Wallace, Robert |
| Duffy, William J. | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. | Walton, John L. (Leeds, S. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Dunn, Sir William | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Elibank, Master of | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Ferguson R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, Chas, Henry (Hull, W. |
| Field, William | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, Hy. J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | Young, Samuel |
| Forster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Malley, William | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Mara, James | |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Ellis Griffith. |
| Grant, Corrie | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durh'm | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Partington, Oswald | |
| Harwood, George | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Anson, Sir William Reynell | Arrol, Sir William |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Arkwright, John Stanhope | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John |
| Aird, Sir John | Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sb'ry | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'ds. | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Balcarres, Lord | Grenfell, William Henry | Morton, Arth. H. A. (Deptford |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Groves, James Grimble | Mount, William Arthur |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Hain, Edward | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Hamilton, Rt HnLordG. (Mid'x | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Hamilton, Marqof (L'nd'nderry | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants | Harris, Frederick Leverton | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Blundell, Col. Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Bond, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Penn, John |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Percy, Earl |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Pilington, Lieut.-Col. R. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middl'x) | Higginbottom, S. W. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Brassey, Albert | Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampste'd | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bull, William James | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Purvis, Robert |
| Butcher, John George | Horner, Frederick William | Randles, John S. |
| Campbell,RtHnJ.A.(Glasgow) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Rankin, Sir James |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hoult, Joseph | Rasch, Major Frederick Carne |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Cavendish, VCW. (Derbyshire) | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Renwick, George |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Ridley,S.Forde(BethnalGreen |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hon.J.(Birm | Kenyon, J. (Lancs., Bury) | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. |
| Chamberlain,J.Austen(Worc'r | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kimber, Henry | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Knowles, Lees | Round, James |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Lambton,Hon.FrederickWm. | Rutherford, John |
| Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lawson, John Grant | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex. |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Lecky,Rt.Hn. WilliamEdw.H. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currey | Seely, Cap. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Dewar,T.R.(T'rH'mlets,S.Geo | Loder, Gerald W. Erskine | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S, | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lowe, Francis William | Spear, John Ward |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent) | Stanley, Hon. Arth. (Ormskirk |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lucas, Reginald J. (P'rtsmouth | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Stroyan, John |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Macdona, John Cumming | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | M'Iver, David (Liverpool) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Maconochie, A. W. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Finch, George H. | M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) | Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb',W. | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | M'Killop, James (Stirlingsh.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Majendie, James A. H. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Malcolm, Ian | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Manners, Lord Cecil | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Flower, Ernest | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Valentia, Viscount |
| Foster,PhilipS.(Warwick,SW | Massey-Mainwaring,Hn W F. | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Maxwell, RtHnSirHE(Wigtn | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Garfit, William | Maxwell, WJH(Dumfriesshire | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
| Gibbs,Hn.A.G.H(CityofLond. | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Godson,SirAugustusFrederick | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wason,JohnCathcart(Orkney |
| Gordon,Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fred. G. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Gordon,MajEvans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Mitchell, William | Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton |
| Gore, Hn. G. RC Ormsby-(Salop | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Wills, Sir Frederick | Wrightson, Sir Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Wilson, John (Falkirk) | Wylie, Alexander | |
| Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath |
§ MR. DUNCAN (Yorkshire, W.R., Otley)said he desired to move an Amendment under which the school board would be allowed to carry on the work unless the local authority intervened. For a number of years he had been a member of the West Riding County Council and of its technical instruction committee. That county council had to deal with a very large number of authorities. In addition to the continuation classes already sanctioned by the technical instruction committee, there would be many classes carried on by the school board which were not at present in conjunction with that committee. Under the Bill as it stood, the whole of those authorities would have to come to the county council for permission to carry on the schools. The county council would just now be finishing its year's work, and adjourning for the holidays. The committee which would have this matter to consider already had a very large amount of work to do, but it was absolutely essential that this question if it was to be decided at all should be decided quickly. It was not possible for the West Riding County Council or its technical instruction committee to discuss adequately with 100 authorities all the details of this complicated subject in the short time within which it was imperative that a decision should be arrived at. Under the Bill it appeared to him that a county council which was not in earnest over educational matters would be able to hang up the question almost indefinitely, and unless the classes were begun before Christmas they were of very little use at all. If a school board started a class without consulting the county council, and they could not legally carry it on, the decision as to whether or not the class could be carried on would be apparently left to neither the school board nor the county council, but to the Government auditor, and the whole question of the Cockerton judgment might be again raised in regard to a particular class. It was not desirable to place between the school boards and the local authorities any cause of 1484 friction. Whatever public feeling on behalf of education existed had been cultivated by the school boards, who had been wiser than the Legislature in preparing for what they felt to be an immediate need of the country. If the Amendment were accepted there would be no need for a county council to interfere; the authority would be still retained; but any cause of friction between the two authorities, which would be most disastrous to the proper educational progress of the country, would be removed.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, to leave out all the words after the word 'applicable,' to the end of the sub-clause, and insert the words, 'The school board may carry on for the period of one year from that day the work of such school or class, and may apply to the maintenance of such school or class such sum out of the school fund as may be necessary, unless objection to such expenditure be made within thirty days of the passing of this Act by the council of the county or county borough, or any other local authority under the Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891, within whose area the school or class is held.'"—(Mr Duncan.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words 'the council of the county or county borough' stand part of the Clause."
§ SIR J. GORSTOf course the Government cannot accept this Amendment, as it is entirely subversive of the scheme they are inviting the Committee to adopt. It appears to me that the Amendment, if adopted, would lead to inconvenience, and cause friction. The principle of the Bill is very simple. It is that the schools conducted by the school boards are to be carried on continuously under the authority of the body which represents the ratepayers, and it is the duty of the representatives of the ratepayers, either on the application of the school board or on their own initiative, to determine which schools should be carried on. The Government feel confident that if the Bill is adopted in the form in which it is presented there will be no friction, and that the schools which it is desirable should be continued will be continued in 1485 every part of England and Wales. As an alternative to that scheme the hon. Member opposite proposes that, in the first place, there should be a delay of a month, during which nobody will know where he is. Suppose a local authority does not at once determine which schools are to be carried on. In that case the school board will not dare to engage teachers or to make the arrangements which are so urgently required to be made immediately for the coming session of the continuation schools. They would have this sword of Damocles hanging over them, which might destroy every kind of preparation they had made.
§ MR. DUNCANThey have the same sword of Damocles hanging over them now.
§ SIR J. GORSTNot at all. At present what they have to do is to come to terms immediately with the local authority, and then they can go on. In many cases that has already been done, in anticipation of the Bill being passed. A large number of important school boards have already made their arrangements.
§ DR. MACNAMARAWhere?
§ SIR J. GORSTI need not give the list, but the Committee may take it from me that arrangements have been made in many cases. Is the hon. Member giving the local authority a really reasonable power? The objection must be made within a month, but the hon. Member has told us that in many parts of the country the local authorities have already adjourned, or are about to do so. They, therefore, will have no chance of exercising the power this Amendment proposes to give them; certainly they will not have a reasonable opportunity of determining whether certain schools should be continued or not. Lastly, even supposing a local authority desires to make an objection, the Amendment does not say how or to whom the objection is to be made, or by what procedure effect is to be given to it when made, or what is to happen afterwards. The scheme which the hon. Member has elaborated is an extremely inconvenient one, and the words by which he seeks to give effect to it are wholly inefficient and ineffective.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid the Vice-President had declared that this Amendment was entirely subversive of the scheme of the Bill, whereas, as a matter of fact, it did not touch the local authorities at all. Instead of the school board going to the local authority with full details as to every school or class, and haggling over which should be continued and which should not, the Amendment provided that the school board should go ahead subject to the ultimate challenge of the local authority. It simply broke the fall of the school board. The right hon. Gentleman claimed that the scheme of the Government presented no opportunity for friction, but refused to give instances in which arrangements were being amicably made. He would give a case the other way. He had received a letter from the Leeds School Board, in which it was stated that—
A deputation of the school board have had a very painful interview with the Technical Instruction Committee of the City Council, which dearly foreshadows the strongest kind of friction between the school board and the City Council.He hoped the Committee would agree to the Amendment. It was simply a proposal to let the school boards down gently instead of subjecting them to the indignity, after their thirty years experience, of going to an authority which had had only ten years experience in a small field of education, and submitting to that authority details which it was not competent to understand. The municipalisation of education would be made incalculably more difficult by the refusal of the Government to accept any modification or compromise.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid the objection of the Vice-President to the Amendment on the question of form could easily be met. If, instead of leaving out the words from "applicable" to the end of the paragraph, the hon. Member inserted the principle of his Amendment, and stated that objections to such expenditure should be made by the council to the Board of Education within thirty days, and then at the end of the Amendment added the word "whereupon," that particular objection would be overcome. Where there was a will there was a way, and if the Committee were dis- 1487 cussing the Bill in the ordinary manner, with the prospect of a Report stage, all the right hon. Gentleman would have to do if he desired to accept the Amendment would be to promise to consider the matter with a view to introducing an Amendment on the Report stage of the Bill. But it was perfectly well known there was to be no Report stage. Any Bill relating to education was to be treated as a sort of inspired Scripture; not a letter, syllable, or word was to be altered. Another objection of the Vice-President was that under the Amendment these bodies would have a sword of Damocles hanging over them for a month. But what was the present position? There must, first of all, be a reference to the county council.
§ SIR J. GORSTNo.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWISNo application to the county council?
§ SIR J. GORSTI think the hon. Member could not have been in the House when the Solicitor General said it was absolutely unnecessary.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid, surely there must be a sanction given to the continuance of these schools or classes, and in order that that sanction may be given an application must be made and the county council must meet. There were counties in which the councils met only once in three months. It was true that resolutions might be passed at once, but the whole state of the case would not then be adequately considered. The matter would have to be considered by a committee; that committee would have to communicate with the school boards; and the county council would have to meet again, because, as the Solicitor General had pointed out, it could not delegate the power of settling the matter to the committee. By the time all this had been done, where would be the one month of which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken with so much horror as the sword of Damocles? The real objection was that there was to be no Report stage.
§ MR. BOUSFIELDsympathised to a certain extent with the object of the 1488 Amendment, and thought that a clearer declaration on the part of the Government of their intention would remove the possibility of any practical difficulty. By many of the speeches, the object of the Bill and the duty the Government desired to lay upon the county councils had been rather obscured. The Bill did not tell county councils exactly what was expected of them. He believed the Government simply intended that these schools should go on in all cases except where there was overlapping. If that were the policy of the Government, and if that policy were clearly enunciated, he believed that every practical difficulty and every cause of friction would disappear.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTThe Vice-President has made a statement at which we were all astonished, namely, that there is no occasion for the school boards to go to the local authorities.
§ SIR J. GORSTI did not make it.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTIt is very difficult to get a definite statement at all. We all understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that certain difficulties which had been suggested could not arise, because it had been stated by the Solicitor General that there was no occasion for the school boards to go to the local authority at all. Is that the fact?
§ SIR J. GORSTThat is what the Solicitor General said.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTYes, but is it what the Vice-President says?
§ SIR J. GORSTassented.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTIt is rather important, because we have understood that the whole basis of this Bill is that the school boards, if they are to continue that education which they have been carrying on with so much advantage to the community, must go to the county councils under the words of this Bill. Are we now to understand that the Vice-President, on the authority of the Solicitor General, states that the school boards may do this 1489 without going to the local authority at all? It would be a great relief if we thoroughly understood that to be the case.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI think the right hon. Gentleman cannot have been in the House when the Solicitor General spoke, or he would have seen that there is really no confusion or contradiction in this matter at all. What the Solicitor General said was that it was entirely in the power of a local authority to pass a resolution, quite apart from any application from the school board, authorising the school board to go on with the work they had been doing, or a certain portion of it. The local authority need not wait to be set in motion by the school board, but they may do this on their own initiative. That was the opinion of the Solicitor General, and I think it would probably be the opinion of most gentlemen who have read the Bill. There is really no obscurity or difficulty in the matter. I do not think, at any rate, that this branch of the discussion on the Amendment need continue. I would respectfully ask the Committee to help us to get on with the details of this single-clause Bill. We have discussed the principle of it on the Second Reading, we have discussed the great alternative suggestion on the first Amendment, and I think it will be for the general convenience that these relatively insignificant matters should be disposed of without any undue discussion.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTI do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has removed the objection we take. The difficulties which have been raised are that, from other causes, it may be extremely difficult for the school board to apply to the local authority, and there ought to be some alleviation of those difficulties provided for in the Bill. What the First Lord of the Treasury says has not touched that point at all. The argument of the Vice-President of the Council is that no such difficulties arise, because school boards need not go to the local authority at all. The question is whether it has done the thing that is wanted. The right hon. Gentleman appears to have thrown a responsibility upon the Solicitor General which it does 1490 not seem to me that the Solicitor General at all merits.
§ MR. MATHER (Lancashire, Rossendale)said a case had arisen which affected the interests of education and which did not affect party discussion. Supposing a school board had hitherto carried on its schools and classes, and it did not agree to apply for the continuance of its schools to the local authority, and the local authority was not sympathetic? Town councils, were not all enlightened bodies of men, and they were not, as a rule, so ardent for the education of the country that they would rush out of their way to spend money. There were not many of this class he knew, but there were a few. Supposing in this particular case a school board not having applied for money, was, so to speak, held up by this Bill, and the county or town council of that school district being indifferent took no action at all, what would become of the thousand children in that district who hitherto enjoyed the higher grade teaching? What would become of those children during the coming winter? There was nothing in the Bill to enforce, either upon one authority or the other, the necessity that such education should be carried on. Under the Education Act, 1870, the Board of Education had laid upon it the distinct duty by Parliament that, in the case of a defaulting school board not carrying out its functions, the Board of Education was bound to come in. Where there was an ignorant school board not doing its duty, and not maintaining its schools, it was the duty of the Board of Education to come down upon that district and see that the children were not neglected. In relation to this class of education which they were now considering, he understood the Government did not wish to destroy it. All the Ministers who had spoken had said that this education was to be continued, and that they were in sympathy with it, provided some extraordinary extravagances were disallowed. The case he quoted was one where the Board of Education had no power to control the local authority under this Bill. They had no power to control a school board, and, between the two, what was going to become of the 1491 thousand children who had hitherto enjoyed the benefits of this education? The case he had put was not a hypothetical one, but it had actually happened. Fortunately he might be able to control this case in the right direction, but that did not affect the principle. If the Government would only give way on this point, the simplest method would be that the Board of Education should enjoy the same power in the coming year in controlling the higher grade education that it had hitherto enjoyed under the Act of 1870. He put it to the Committee that there would be a dilemma arising in more districts than one, and a great wrong would be done to education if something of the kind were not done.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. Gentleman has stated that the Bill does not give power to the Education Department to compel an adequate supply of secondary education. That is perfectly true, but I wish to point out that the Department would have had no such power either under the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman or under the Amendment now before the Committee. I do not, however, think it is desirable to throw upon the Education Department the duty suggested.
§ MR. MATHERsaid he had framed his Amendment with a view to placing this power in the hands of the Board of Education.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI do not think the terms of this Amendment require the Board to insist on an adequate supply of secondary education. That, however, is not a matter relevant to the Amendment before the House. I have greater confidence in the good sense of the local authorities than some hon. Members appear to have. I do not believe that all these children will be left uneducated owing to petty squabbles between the school board and the local authority. On the contrary, I think that the responsibility placed upon the local authority is so great that in its own interest, quite apart from its public duty, it will never think of taking a course in the matter which would give great offence to its constituents, Therefore, if the matter is 1492 not relevant, the fears which have been expressed are entirely without foundation.
§ MR. BRYCEI admit that this is not quite relevant, but, as it is a subject which has been entered upon, perhaps I may be allowed to say that there is, at any rate, a probability that a certain number of children who have enjoyed this education will be deprived of the opportunity of enjoying it in the future. If it is true, as my hon. friend says, that there is a considerable number of children who will be deprived of this education owing to friction between these two authorities, there is surely a case for the intervention of the Board of Education. The right hon. Gentleman cannot wish that in any town even 1,000 or 2,000 children who have hitherto enjoyed this education should be deprived of it. I sympathise with the desire expressed by the right hon. Gentleman that we should get on with this Bill as fast as possible. I think that, up to the present, the whole of the discussion has been strictly relevant to the Bill, but I am sure that it would very much abridge our labours if the right hon Gentleman would take this opportunity of giving to us some indication of the Amendments which he is willing to accept. As instances I may mention the Amendments of the hon. Member for Oldham and the hon. Member for East Somerset. If the right hon. Gentleman would indicate his willingness to accept these or any other Amendments which would give the Board of Education a locus standi, I think we should get through the Bill much faster.
§ MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)said he wished to bring before the House the suggestion made by his hon. friend the Member for Rossendale. The First Lord of the Treasury had just stated that he did not expect the town councils would shut up the schools. What was going to be the result of this Bill? It was either going to allow the schools to go on or else it would limit them. In certain cases, where serious fault could be found with the administration and the usefulness of these schools, this Amendment would create a locus standi, and an opportunity would be afforded to the local authority to interfere and say that that particular kind of school should not go on. In such a case 1493 as that the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Rossendale came in. This was a very reasonable Amendment, and it was one which would minimise cases of friction such as had arisen at Leeds and other places, and which he feared would arise at a great many other places.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he thought the Committee were entitled to some indication of the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman on this particular question. What was proposed would strengthen the Bill and would not in any way overthrow the principle which the right hon. Gentleman was laying down. There was one point which ought to be made clear on this Amendment, and that was with regard to the powers of county councils of their own initiative to decide which schools should proceed. It was a very extraordinary doctrine to lay down that they could act on their own initiative. It was very important before deciding upon the Amendment to thoroughly understand this. It was all a question of time. His hon. friend who moved the Amendment wished, in order to save time, that it should be laid down that all schools which the county council did not interfere with in the course of thirty days should be able to carry on their work. The only answer which the Minister of Education made to that was that it would take less time to carry out the arrangements by the machinery provided in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said the county council could act on their own initiative, without waiting for an application from the school board. If that was true, it might be done in ten days, and it would save time. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman had read his own Bill, or he would not have laid down that doctrine. The Bill said that the council of the county or the county borough—
may empower the school board to carry on for the period of one year from that day the
§ work of the school or class to such extent and on such terms as may be agreed on between such council or local authority and the school board, and to apply to the maintenance of the school or class such sum out of the school fund as the council or local authority may sanction."
§ How could a county council and a school board come to an agreement without ever having met? That was the only way in which the work could be done. Some hon. Members said it was to be done by the school board writing a letter, but the whole argument was that no application need be made at all. He would point out to the First Lord of the Treasury that the Bill said that the whole basis of action was an agreement between the school board and the county council. Assuming that the school board sent a letter, the county council might not agree to what was proposed. The fact of the matter was that time would be required to come to an agreement. A very careful calculation was required on the part of the school board to know the sum of money spent on continuation schools, and, if that was so, how could the county council act on their initiative? The First Lord arrived at the conclusion that Amendments must be rejected whether good or bad, and then he endeavoured to find arguments to support that course. The real reason for the attitude of the Government had been given by a member of a school board, who said this was the Bill which the Church party desired to pass, and who expressed the hope that the measure would curtail, truncate, and almost destroy the existing school boards, because he thought they were not only doomed, but rightly doomed, to extinction.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 261; Noes, 164. (Division List No. 359.)
1497| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Bailey, James (Walworth) | Bartley, George C. T. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bain, Col. James Robert | Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol |
| Aird, Sir John | Baird, John George Alexander | Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Balcarres, Lord | Beckett, Ernest William |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Baldwin, Alfred | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bignold, Arthur |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Blundell, Col. Henry |
| Bagot,Capt.Josceline FitzRoy | Banbury, Frederick George | Bond, Edward |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Hamilton,RtHnLordG(Midd.) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Hamilton,Marqof(L'nd'nd'rry | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middl'x) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Brassey, Albert | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bull, William James | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Butcher, John George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Campbell,RtHnJ.A.(Glasgow) | Heath,James(Staffords,N. W.) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Heaton, John Henniker | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Helder, Augustus | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Higginbottom, S. W. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hoare,EdwBrodie(Hampste'd | Parker, Gilbert |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.) | Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E. | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Chamberlain,J.Austen(Worc'r | Hope,J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Penn, John |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Horner, Frederick William | Percy, Earl |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hoult, Joseph | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hozier,HonJamesHenryCecil | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Purvis, Robert |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies | Randles, John S. |
| Corbett,A.Cameron(Glasgow) | Jebb, Sir RichardClaverhouse | Rankin, Sir James |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cox,Irwin EdwardBainbridge | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop) | Renwick, George |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Kimber, Henry | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cust, Henry John C. | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Ridley,S.Forde(BethnalGreen |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Knowles, Lees | Ritchie,Rt.Hn.Chas.Thomson |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Lambton,Hon.Frederick Wm. | Robinson, Brooke |
| Dewar, T. R. (T'r. H'mletsSGeo | Law, Andrew Bonar | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) | Round, James |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Lawson, John Grant | Rutherford, John |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Ed. J. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. | Leveson-Gower, Fredrick N. S. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. |
| Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (I. of W. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Fergusson,Rt.Hn.SirJ.(Man.) | Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S | Shaw-Stewart,M. H. (Renfr'w |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Finch, George H. | Lowe, Francis William | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Smith,JamesParker(Lanarks. |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lowther,Rt.Hn.James(Kent) | Smith,Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Col.Francis (Lowestoft | Spear, John Ward |
| Fitzroy,Hon.EdwardAlgernon | Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Flower, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Stroyan, John |
| Gardner, Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Garfit, William | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon. | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Majendie, James A. H. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Gore,Hn.G.RCOrmsby-(Salop | Malcolm, Ian | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Gore,Hon.S.F.Ormsby-(Linc.) | Manners, Lord Cecil | Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray |
| Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Massey-Mainwaring,Hn. W. F | Valentia, Viscount |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Maxwell, RtHnSirHE(Wigt'n | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Green, WalfordD(Wednesb'ry | Maxwell,WJH(Dumfriesshire | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Greene,HenryD.(Shrewsbury) | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Gretton, John | Mitchell, William | Webb, Col. William George |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunt'n |
| Groves, James Grimble | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts) |
| Guthrie, Walter Murray | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und.-L. |
| Hain, Edward | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Wills, Sir Frederick | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Wilson, John (Falkirk) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) | Wylie, Alexander | |
| Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. | O'Mara, James |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Harwood, George | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) |
| Asher, Alexander | Hayden, John Patrick | Partington, Oswald |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. | Pickard, Benjamin |
| Bayley, Thos. (Derbyshire) | Helme, Norval Watson | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Bell, Richard | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Price, Robert John |
| Blake, Edward | Holland, William Henry | Priestley, Arthur |
| Boland, John | Hope, John D. (Fife, West) | Rea, Russell |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Horniman, Frederick John | Reddy, M. |
| Brigg, John | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jacoby, James Alfred | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Joyce, Michael | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Burns, John | Kay-Shuttleworth,RtHnSirU | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kearley, Hudson E. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kennedy, Patrick James | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Caldwell, James | Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cameron, Robert | Labouchere, Henry | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lambert, George | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Carew, James Laurence | Langley, Batty | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford |
| Cawley, Frederick | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Maurice | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Lewis, John Herbert | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Crombie, John William | Lloyd-George, David | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cullinan, J. | Lough, Thomas | Strachy, Edward |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Lundon, W. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Delany, William | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Doogan, P. C. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Dermott, Patrick | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Mather, William | Thomas, J. A. (Glamorg., Gower |
| Elibank, Master of | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John Wm. | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W. R. |
| Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) | Morley, Chas. (Breconshire) | Tomlinson, James |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Murphy, John | Wallace, Robert |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, John Law. (Leeds, S.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Newnes, Sir George | Warner, ThomasCourtenay T. |
| Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Wason, Eug. (Clackmannan) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Field, William | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Whiteley,George(Yorks. WR. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien,Kendal(Tipp'r'y Mid) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, Osmond(Merioneth |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks., WR. |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Young, Samuel |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | O'Dowd, John | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Duncan and Mr. Trevelyan. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | |
| Haldane, Richard Burdon | O'Malley, William |
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the Amendment he desired to move was a very small and very reasonable one. There were some school boards which were closely in touch with the urban district councils, and quite out of touch with the county councils, As an illustration 1498 he might instance the school board of Chiswick, and that in the division of Acton, both of which were closely in touch with the urban district council, although, under the Bill, they would have to go to the county council of Middlesex. If they 1499 had to deal with the urban district council they would be dealing with a body which knew their needs, and would be able to deal with them, and they would also be dealing with a body close to their doors. If, on the other hand, they had to go to the county council, they would have to come up to London, a distance of ten miles, and they would have to find out what department to deal with, and a great deal of friction would arise. He submitted, therefore, that this power ought to be given to the local authority on the spot.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 10, after the word 'borough,' to insert the words 'or urban district having a population at the Census of 1891 exceeding twenty thousand.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid if he understood the hon. Member aright he proposed by his Amendment to create two authorities, without deciding upon which the authority rested.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the Bill did that.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI think the hon. Gentleman is under some misapprehension—it does nothing of the kind. That in itself is, I think, a conclusive argument against this Amendment.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTagreed that the criticism was a fair one, and that his Amendment should be moved a little further in the Bill.
§ COLONEL NOLAN (Galway, N.)said he was satisfied with the comparative value of the Bill, and had voted with the Government in one division this afternoon. He moved to report progress, in order that he might appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury to relieve the considerable uncertainty in the minds of hon. Members as to where they should dine. If the First Lord of the Treasury cast a little light upon the subject it would enable a great many hon. Members to fix their arrangements.
§ MR. FLAVIN (Kerry, N.)Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, might 1500 I appeal to him to have an all-night sitting in order at any rate that some business might be transacted?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. Member is perfectly well aware that these matters do not rest with me. If my view is taken, considering that this one clause Bill has already been under discussion three days, and as I think we have considered every phase, there ought to be no difficulty in hon. Gentlemen keeping any dinner engagements.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the next Amendment but one raised a very important question, as to what would happen if there was a deadlock between the authorities which had not been decided.
THE CHAIRMANWe had better dispose of the first Amendment first. The hon. Member, I understand, does not press it.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTNo, Sir.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. CHARLES MORLEY (Brecknock), in moving an Amendment to provide that the county or borough council should act "through a committee composed in equal proportions of members of the council and members of the school board or school boards within the district," said that the Committee would recognise that this Amendment carried out the spirit of the Education Bill No. 1, which provided that the educational authority should not be the county council or a committee of the county council, but the county council acting through a committee formed in this way. He confessed that the proposal contained in his Amendment was not exactly on the lines laid down by the Report of the Secondary Education Commission, but it contained the same principle. It was true that both the Government and the Commission recommended the addition of certain elected persons, but that was sometimes a dangerous proceeding. He did not suggest that the proposal contained in his Amendment was a perfect arrangement, but he thought if the Government 1501 would accept it, it would be a great improvement to the Bill.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 10, after the word 'held,' to insert insert the words 'acting through a committee composed in equal proportions of members of the council and members of the school board or school boards within the district.'"—(Mr. Charles Morley.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid the Amendment attempted to create in this temporary Bill a second education authority. The hon. Member did not say how the members of this committee were to be appointed. In the case of the counties—
§ MR. BRYCEsaid the suggested words, in the position in which they were proposed to be inserted, would only apply to boroughs.
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid that in the case of boroughs it compelled the county borough council to act through a committee which had no power to strike a rate; it only added additional complications to the machinery of the Bill without any object, and he could not accept the Amendment.
§ Question put, and negatived.
THE CHAIRMANThe next Amendment is in the name of the hon. Member for the Rugby Division—
In page 1, line 10, after the word 'held,' to insert the words 'or, if they shall refuse or neglect to do so, the Board of Education.'I think that Amendment has been put down in the wrong place.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsubmitted that as the Bill stood it was in order.
THE CHAIRMANI do not think this Amendment would be in order, because it would place in the hands of the Board of Education the ultimate decision as to whether these schools should continue or not. That is not the proposal of the Bill. On the first sub-section the Committee decided that the power should vest in the local authority; 1502 therefore I shall have to rule this Amendment out of order.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid that the previous Amendments did not exclude the possibility of settling a difficulty that might arise between the school board and the local authority by an appeal to the Education Department. He thought there was nothing inconsistent in the Amendment with the decision at which the Committee had arrived, that the local authorities were to come in to enable the school boards to go on, and that the Board of Education should settle the difficulties between the two bodies.
THE CHAIRMANI have given the best consideration I can to this matter, and the conclusion I have come to is this: The general principle of the Bill is that the local authority is to have in its hands the decision as to whether these schools are to go on or not, and any Amendment which takes away that decision and places it in the hands of some other body seems to me to be contrary to the spirit and the letter of the Bill, which has received the imprimatur and assent of the House twice over. I shall be compelled, therefore, to rule that all Amendments which would take away from the local authorities the ultimate discretion as to what is to become of these schools are out of order.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTpointed out that the words "taking away from the local authorities" implied that they were depriving them of something which they could otherwise use; but his Amendment raised another question, which was that if they neglected to take up their powers in any way the Board of Education should step in. Could it be said that these powers under the Bill were taken away because another authority other than the school board was enabled to take them up?
§ MR. CHANNINGsaid that it was understood when the Bill was introduced that it was a short revision of Clauses 8 and 9 of the Education Bill No. 1. Clause 8 of the original Bill clearly contemplated this appeal.
THE CHAIRMANI think I am bound to look only within the four corners of this Bill, and I cannot consider any other Bill.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid there was a great deal to be said in favour of the appeal of the First Lord of the Treasury, and if the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to accept some kind of modification, such as had been suggested by the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen, he was perfectly sure the Bill would be passed in a very short time. Under the circumstances, he would not move the Amendment standing in his name.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he would take leave to move the Amendment, in order that one of the most difficult points of the Bill might be cleared up. The authority for the Technical Instruction Act was the urban sanitary authority, and the municipal authority in a non-county borough. The position raised outside and discussed very freely was this. If you have a school board within the jurisdiction of the urban sanitary authority, to whom should it appeal for sanction? Was it to appeal to the borough council or to the county council? In the case of Leamington the borough council of Leamington would be the authority for technical education, but that borough council was in the area of the county council for Warwick. To whom in that case was the school board to go for permission? They did not know which authority to go to, and the authorities themselves did not know which of them was the authority to give the permission required. The right hon. Gentleman was not quite right when he repudiated the fact that there were two authorities in this Bill. As a fact there were two—the technical instruction committee and the county council. If any disputes arose with the urban district council, who would be the person to advise the school board? This was a matter which could only arise in rural districts, and he begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 10, to leave out from the word 'held' to the word 'may' in line 13.
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid such a school board as the hon. Member described could go to the county council direct for sanction if it wished, but where an important non-county borough was concerned the county council would probably consult it before giving its sanction. If the school board wished to apply to the non-county borough it must get the sanction of the Board of Education. That sanction would be given in such conditions that no controversy would arise.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)said many small school boards objected very much to go into the county councils. Of course, the main object would be to get this sanction as quickly as possible, and the boroughs, for that reason, wanted to go to the county councils direct; but in certain cases, where the county councils were not cognisant of the facts, they might give a refusal. In that case, would the borough school board be able to go to the Education Department and ask leave to go to its own borough council?
§ SIR J. GORSTwas understood to say that, with the sanction of the Board of Education, that could be done
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that, as the Bill now stood, it was the local authority which had to apply and not the school board.
§ SIR J. GORSTThat is so, and the Board of Education, in the exercise of their discretion under this clause, give their sanction to the county councils.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTasked whether it was the town council or the county council which had to ask for the sanction.
§ SIR J. GORSTBoth.
§ MR. CORRIE GRANTThen would the right hon. Gentleman put some words into the Bill to make this matter clear?
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid if the hon. Gentleman would look at the Bill he would see 1505.> that the matter was already perfectly clear. The sanction of the Board of Education would be given in accordance with the circumstances of each particular case. Either the local authority or the school board could apply to the Board of Education for its sanction.
§ MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)asked, did not hon. Gentlemen understand that the Vice-President could not accept any Amendment, however reasonable? The Vice-President was a man who could listen to argument and adopt reasonable suggestions. But in this case, he could not yield because the First Lord of the Treasury had his eye on him, and had told him not to accept any Amendment lest there should be a Report stage. He assured hon. Gentlemen they were only wasting valuable arguments; they were casting pearls before the Government. Under the circumstances, it seemed to him they were wasting time and only knocking their heads against a stone wall. He challenged the First Lord to get up and say that that was not the case.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid his only object was to make the clause quite clear. The urban district sanitary authority was said to be the authority under the Technical Instruction Act. Let them assume that the urban district authority had never exercised their powers under the Technical Instruction Act, did it still remain an authority which could give a decision with regard the schools?
§ SIR J. GORSTYes, certainly.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANT moved, in lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words "with the sanction of the Board of Education." He thought it was a reflection upon these local authorities that they should be forced to go to the Board of Education when the county councils and the county borough councils were not so forced. If he might take Middlesex as an illustration, he could show the Committee clearly that it was the local authorities who had full knowledge of these matters who ought to be entrusted with this power. There 1506 were there a number of district councils which had large rating systems, and within these same areas were effective school boards doing good work, which the Cockerton judgment stopped. There were county councils in the country which were nothing like so important as these great district urban councils, yet the Board of Education was to interfere with them in a matter purely of local rating. This Bill was to give the matter of education into the hands of the local authorities, and it was most unfair that the Board of Education should come in and interfere in this way. According to the Vice-President, all school boards not in the county boroughs were in the position at the present time of not knowing to what authority to go. In county boroughs they could apply at once to the local authority, but in non-county boroughs they would not know what to do. What would happen would be that if they went to the county council, which had nothing to do with the rates and knew nothing of the needs of the school board, they would be asked whether they had been to the local authority; the answer would naturally be "No, we did not want to waste time," and the county council would then say, "Go to your local authority first of all, and if you cannot get their sanction, then you may come to us." The Bill was a one-clause Bill, and it ought to be a simple one, but what would happen from such complication as this would be to bring the Board of Education in to criticise the work of one half of the local authorities and not the other half. That, he apprehended, was a condition of things which the right hon. Gentleman would be glad to alter.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words 'with the sanction of the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid that the Amendment of the hon. Member introduced the very complications which he was desirous to avoid. The Committee had resolved that the county council should empower 1507 the carrying on of schools as under the Technical Instruction Acts. There was a double authority in the districts, and it was essential that there should be some provision by which the conflict which the omission of the words proposed by the hon. Member would bring about might be avoided. This was the simple expedient of not allowing a conflict of authorities, of not allowing the urban authorities to interfere in the matter without the sanction of the Board of Education. He had a higher opinion of the common sense of the local authorities than the hon. Member seemed to have.
§ MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)said the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was an excellent argument for putting the boot on the other leg. If anybody ought to ask for sanction it ought to be the county council, and not the urban district council. He thought the authority should be with the body that levied the rates, and unless an Amendment was accepted to fix that principle the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman fell to the ground. His Amendment would give what the First Lord of the Treasury had impressed on the House—namely, that the authority was to be the one that levied the rates.
§ DR. MACNAMARAsaid he understood that to the urban district councils and similar district councils the sanction of the Board of Education would be freely given. Before the Board of Education sanctioned the right of a small municipality or urban district council to go on with this work, it would make an application to the county council.
§ SIR J. GORSTsaid he thought so. The Board would be guided by the circumstances of the case.
§ MR. BROADHURSTreferred to the third paragraph of the circular letter sent out to the various local bodies by the Vice-President, and asked how that squared with the position now taken up by the right hon. Gentleman. The circular seemed to him to be a direct invitation to the county councils to agree to do something which there was no power to compel them to do, but if they 1508 agreed to do this thing at some time or other the urgent representations of the district councils were to be snubbed.
§ SIR J. GORSTEvery case would be considered upon its merits. Where the county council was able and willing to act, generally speaking, the sanction would not be given to the urban district council without consultation with the county council.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid it was important that the Committee should know what was to be done in these cases. Was the sanction of the Board of Education to be exercised according to the general principle of the Minute, or was it to be exercised in individual cases? If it was to be exercised according to the genera] principle of the Minute, it was all right, but if it meant that the Board of Education was to find out what the local authority proposed to do before sanction was given, it was a very extraordinary thing indeed. Why should sanction be given to one body and not to another possessing similar qualifications? If the Minute meant anything at all, it meant that the Education Board was going to ascertain what was going to happen in a particular case. Was the rule going to be laid down that all municipal and, in certain cases, town councils were to receive sanction, or was it simply that the Board of Education was going to see what would happen in every case, and give one town council a right and deny it to another?
§ MR. CHANNINGsaid that this question affected education perhaps more than any other part of the Bill. The circular said that the Board of Education would only sanction applications made by these urban authorities after consultation with the county council, which meant that they gave to the county council a power of veto. If the county councils demanded to retain this power in their own hands, and said that they were prepared to do what they thought right and just, the circular morally bound the Board of Education to give them a power of veto, and the urban district councils and the small borough councils would be denied the right to deal with this question upon its merits.
§ SIR J. GORSTWhat I said was that they could do it with the consent of the Board of Education.
§ MR. CHANNINGsaid if the right hon. Gentleman had paid a little closer attention he would have seen that he (Mr. Channing) was dealing with another portion of the right hon. Gentleman's reply. The circular gave a moral pledge to the county councils that if they were prepared to act themselves, the Education Department would not give its sanction to urban district rating authorities. This circular affected the rights of the urban district councils most materially, and he hoped every hon. Member would oppose the Bill until the matter was thoroughly cleared up, and until this unconstitutional pledge was done away with and the rights of the smaller communities were vindicated.
§ SIR J. GORSTsaw no reason why the hon. Gentleman should get into a state of fiery indignation over the matter. It was as simple as possible. There was no difficulty or ambiguity in what he had stated. In the first place, he had a much higher opinion of the county councils than the hon. Member, and he did not believe they would be eager to get into controversy with the great urban districts; on the contrary, they would show the utmost consideration for the rights of these great communities. If, then, a county council intimated to the Board of Education its willingness to act, and applications were sent in from the large urban districts, the Board of Education would not deal with those applications without consultation with the county council. It would be an insult to the county council if in such an important matter they were to give their sanction to the application of an urban district without any consultation with them. But the Board of Education retained the most absolute power—after they had consulted with the county council, and after they had heard what they had to say — without further communication with them, to give this licence as they thought fit to the boroughs. He did not anticipate any dispute or confusion.
§ MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)said the difficulty the Committee felt was that neither the right hon. Gentleman's state- 1510 ment nor the circular agreed with the Bill. The Bill said the Board of Education would permit other local authorities besides the two the Committee had approved of to sanction these schools, but they could only do that with the sanction of the county council. If that was the intention of the Government, that ought to be stated in the Bill. The Bill therefore would have to be amended in one direction or the other, and it might be very well amended by accepting the Amendment now before the House. The second paragraph of the circular said the sanction could only be given after consultation with the county council; the Bill said that the Board of Education alone would give the sanction. It said nothing about "after consultation with the county council," and some words were undoubtedly required to make the matter clear. He had heard a great many appeals to the First Lord of the Treasury to make this matter clear, and he thought there might very well be an understanding that any arrangement arrived at to-night should apply to the Report stage as to the present occasion.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he was perfectly well aware when he raised the question that it bristled with difficulties. It was, to start with, a violation of the principle of the Bill. The principle of the Bill all along was that the persons who provided the money should control the schools. Again and again Amendments had been urged upon the simple ground that ratepayers ought to control the schools. In appealing to the county councils they were not appealing to the ratepayers' representatives, because in the matter of the schools the rate was levied in the town or district. In this case the ratepayers would not have control over their own schools; they would be overridden by the county councils, which had frequently either refused assistance or granted it with the greatest reluctance. If the Bill was not to be amended, the Vice-President had better send out another circular at once, because the attempt by the right hon. Gentleman to deal with every case on its merits would absorb the time which the Bill was to cover. What was the machinery to be used for enabling the urban sanitary authorities to give consent to the school boards to carry on this education? The 1511 urban sanitary authority would address a communication to the county council, which might not be sitting, to ask whether it was prepared to act or not, The county council after some time would notify the Education Board, and it would consider whether it would act or whether it did not propose to act. On that the urban authority would refuse to allow these schools to go on. So that the act of negotiation was to be negotiation with the county council and the urban sanitary authority, thus setting up two authorities, with the Board of Education between. The whole scheme was fraught with delay and full of friction. If the Board of Education had to obtain the opinion of every county council and urban sanitary authority throughout England, there would be very little chance for the schools during the coming winter. Therefore he entreated the Vice-President to depart from the principle of dealing with each case upon its merits, and to lay down instead a few simple rules showing how the Board of Education would act, and then this multitude of appeals for sanction would disappear; there would be no need to make them; certain districts would know clearly that they would have a right to give or withhold their assent, and other districts would know by those general rules that
§ they could not come into the discussion at all.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid that, whatever else the discussion had failed to make clear it had shown that the Bill had been carelessly drawn, or else that it ought to be amended. Anybody could see on reading it that the Bill bristled with obscurities and difficulties. There ought to have been a direction in the Bill as to who was to make the application—whether it was the school board that was to take the initiative in determining whether it would go to the urban council, or whether it was in the power of the urban district council to go to the Board and say, "It is we, and not the county council, who ought to give this sanction"; and, in the next place, it ought to have been stated whether the Board of Education was going to do this as a matter of course or after consulting the county council. If the Government had made up their minds that the Bill was not to be amended in Committee, he hoped that in another place they would endeavour, by Amendments, to make it easier for the school boards and local authorities to work their schemes.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 207; Noes, 137. (Division List No. 360.)
1515| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood,Capt.SirAlex.F. | Butcher, John George | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Aird, Sir John | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Finch, George H. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Green wich) | Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S W |
| Bagot, Capt.JosicelineFitzRoy | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Gardner, Ernest |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Garfit, William |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Gibbs,Hn.A.G.H.(CityofLond. |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Gordon,MajEvans-(T'rH'ml's) |
| Balfour,Rt.Hon.A.J.(Manch'r | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Gore,Hn.G.R.C.Ormsby-(Sal'p |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Corbett,A.Cameron(Glasgow) | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. |
| Balfour, Hon. G. W. (Leeds) | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Cranborne, Viscount | Green, Walford D (Wednesb'ry |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants. | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewbury) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Crossley, Sir Savile | Grenfell, William Henry |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Cust, Henry John C. | Gretton, John |
| Bignold, Arthur | Dalkeith, Earl of | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Denny, Colonel | Groves, James Grimble |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Dickson, Charles Scott | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hain, Edward |
| Brassey, Albert | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hamilton,Rt.Hn.LordG.(Middx |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Doxford,SirWilliamTheodore | Hamilton,Marqof(L'nd'nderry |
| Bull, William James | Duke, Henry Edward | Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashf'd |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Manners, Lord Cecil | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Massey-Mainwaring,Hn.W.F. | Seely,Cpt.J.E.B.(IsleofWight |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Heath, Jas.(Staffords., N. W.) | Middlemore, John T. | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Helder, Augustus | Mildmay, Francis Bingham, | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Hickman, Sir Alfred | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Higainbottom, S. W. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Smith,JamesParker(Lanarks. |
| Hoare,EdwBrodie(Hampste'd | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow | Spear, John Ward |
| Hope, J.F.(Sh'ffield, Brightsde | Morrell, George Herbert | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Hoult, Joseph | Morris, Hon. Martin Hy. F. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Morrison, James Archibald | Stroyan, John |
| Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Mount, William Arthur | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chishester) |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Murray,Rt.Hn.Graham(Bute) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Kenyon, Hon.G. T. (Denbigh) | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Kenyon Jas. (Lancs., Bury) | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Valentia, Viscount |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Kimber, Henry | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| Knowles, Lees | Parkes, Ebenezer | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Law, Andrew Bonar | Peel,Hn.Wm.Rebt.Wellesley | Wason,JohnCuthcart(Orkney |
| Lawson,JohnGrant | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col Richard | Webb, Col. William George |
| Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Pretyman, Ernest George | Welby,SirCharlesG.E.(Notts. |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Purvis, Robert | Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund.Lyne |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Randles, John S. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. | Rasch, Major Frederick Carne | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Loder, Gerald Walter E. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks. |
| Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Renwick, George | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Lowe, Francis William | Ritchie,Rt.Hn.Chas.Thomson | Wylie, Alexander |
| Lucas, Col.Francis(Lowestoft) | Robinson, Brooke | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsm'uth | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Rutherford, John | |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | |
| Malcolm, Ian | Saunderson,Rt.Hn.Col.Edw.J. | |
| NOES | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Duffy, William J. | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt.Hn.SirU- |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Duncan, J. Hastings | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Elibank, Master of | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Ambrose, Robert | Farrell, James Patrick | Labouchere, Henry |
| Asher, Alexander | Fenwick, Charles | Lambert, George |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) | Langley, Batty |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Ffrench, Peter | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Blake, Edward | Field, William | Leese,SirJosephF(Accrington) |
| Boland, John | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Brigg, John | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Levy, Maurice |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Gilhooly, James | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | Lloyd-George, David |
| Bryee, Rt. Hon. James | Griffith, Ellis J. | Lough, Thomas |
| Burns, John | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Lundon, W. |
| Burt, Thomas | Haldane, Richard Burdon | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Caldwell, James | Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil | M'Dermott, Patrick |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Harwood, George | Mellor, Rt.Hon.John William |
| Carew, James Laurence | Hayden, John Patrick | Morgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Hayne,Rt.Hon.Charles Seale- | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Helme, Norval Watson | Murphy, John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Hobhouse, C.E.H.(Bristol,E.) | Newnes, Sir George |
| Crombie, John William | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Nolan, Col John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Cullinan, J. | Horniman, Frederick John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Delany, William | Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Brien,Kendal(Tipp'r'y,Mid. |
| Dewar, JohnA.(Inverness-sh.) | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Jones, William(Carnarv'nshire | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)t |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Rickett, J. Compton | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Tully, Jasper |
| O'Dowd, John | Robson, William Snowdon | Wallace, Robert |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walton,JohnLawson(Leeds,S |
| O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| O'Malley, William | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | Weir, James Galloway |
| O'Mara, James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Palmer,SirChas.M.(Durham) | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
| Partington, Oswald | Soares, Ernest J. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Philipps, John Wynford | Strachey, Edward | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sullivan, Donal | Young, Samuel |
| Priestley, Arthur | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Reddy, M. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) | |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford | Thomas,JA(GlamorganGower | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Corrie Grant and Mr. Channing. |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. | |
| Reid,SirR.Threshie(Dumfries | Tomkinson, James |
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question
1516§ 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes, 134. (Division List No. 361.)
1517| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cranborne, Viscount | Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.) |
| Aird, Sir John | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Helder, Augustus |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hickman, Sir Alfred |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Crossley, Sir Savile | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cust, Henry John C. | Hoare, Edw. Brodie(Hampst'd) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) |
| Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy | Denny, Colonel | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsi'e |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Bain, Col.-James Robert | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hoult, Joseph |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Balcarres, Lord | Doxtord, Sir Wm. Theodore | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn.A.J.(Manch'r | Duke, Henry Edward | Jebb, Sir Rich. Claverhouse |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Durning-Lawrence,Sir Edwin | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton |
| Balfour,Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Fellowes, Hon. Allwyn Edw. | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Fielden, Edw. Brocklehurst | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. SirM.H.(Bristol | Finch, George H. | Kenyon,Hon.Geo.T.(Denbigh) |
| Beach,Rt.Hn. W.W.B.(Hants | Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne | Kenyon, Jas. (Lancs., Bury) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Fisher, William Hayes | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Kimber, Henry |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Foster, PhilipS, (Warwick, SW. | Knowles, Lees |
| Bignold, Arthur G. | Gardner, Ernest | Law, Andrew Bonar |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Garfit, William | Lawson, John Grant |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Gibbs,Hn.A.G.H(CityofLond. | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middls'x | Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareh'm |
| Brassey, Albert | Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml's | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gore, HnGRC.Ormsby-(Salop) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Bull, William James | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Butcher, John George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y) | Long,Col.Charles W (Evesham |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Greene, HenryD.(Shrewsbury) | Long,RtHnWalter(Bristol.S.) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Greene,W.Raymond-(Cambs.) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Grenfell, William Henry | Lowe, Francis William |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Gretton, John | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Greville, Hon. Roland | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Groves, James Grimble | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.(Birm. | Guthrie, Walter Murray | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain,J.Austen(Worc'r | Hain, Edward | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hamilton,Rt.Hn.LordG.(Mid'x | Malcolm, Ian |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hamilton,Marq.of(L'dond'ry) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'd | Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriessh |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Haslam, Sir. Alfred S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Corbett, T. L.-(Down, North) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Robinson, Brooke | Valentia, Viscount |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Rutherford, John | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Morrison, James Archibald | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Samuel, HarryS. (Limehouse) | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Saunderson, Rt.Hon.Col.E.J. | Webb, Colonel William George- |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Welby, Lt-ColA.C.E(Taunton |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Seely,Capt.J.E.B.(IsleofWight | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts. |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Willougnby de Eresby, Lord |
| Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Spear, John Ward | Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wylie, Alexander Brev |
| Purvis, Robert | Stroyan, John | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Handles, John S. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Thorburn, Sir Walter | |
| Renshaw, Charles Bine | Tollemache, Henry James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Harcourt,Rt.Hn.Sir William | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, C. P. (Glouc, Stroud) | Harwood, George | O'Mara, James |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Asher, Alexander | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Helme, Norval Watson | Partington, Oswald |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon.CharlesH. | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Blake, Edward | Hobhouse, C.E.H.(Bristol,E.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boland, John | Hope, John Deans (Fife, W.) | Priestley, Arthur |
| Brigg, John | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Reddy, M. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jacoby, James Alfred | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jones, David Brynmor (Swan'a | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries |
| Burns, John | Joyce, Michael | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Burt, Thomas | Kearley, Hudson E. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kennedy, Patrick James | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Caldwell, James | Labouchere, Henry | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lambert, George | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Langley, Batty | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Levy, Maurice | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Crombie, John William | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cullinan, J. | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas,Abel(Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies,M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Delany, William | Lundon, W. | Thomas,JA(Glamorgan,Gow'r |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Tomkinson, James |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Dermont, Patrick | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Duffy, William J. | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Tully, Jasper |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Money, Charles (Breconshire) | Wallace, Robert |
| Elibank, Master of | Murphy, John | Walton,JohnLawson(Leeds, S. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Newnes, Sir George | Weir, James Galloway |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Field, William | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Williams,Osmond(Merioneth) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | Wilson, HenryJ.(York,W.R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Young, Samuel |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Dowd, John | |
| Haldane, Richard Burdon | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."
1520§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 203; Noes, 130. (Division List No. 362.)
1521| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Garfit, William | Morgan, David J.(Walthamst'w |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond. | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Aird, Sir John | Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. | Morriss, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Mount, William Arthur |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute |
| Bagot, Capt. J. Fitzroy | Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Grenfell, William Henry | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Groves, James Grimble | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Hain, Edward | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midd'x | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Beach, Rt. Hon. W. W. B. (Hants. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Purvis, Robert |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Hardy, Laurence (K'nt, Ashford | Randles, John S. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Helder, Augustus | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Robinson, Brooke |
| Brassey, Albert | Higginbottom, S. W. | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead | Rutherford, John |
| Bull, William James | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hope, J. F. (Shefneld, Brightside | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Butcher, John George | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Hoult, Joseph | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Seeley, Cap. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. H on. J. (Birm. | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury | Spear, John Ward |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kimber, Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Knowles, Lees | Stroyan, John |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Law, Andrew Bonar | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Lawson, John Grant | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, N.) | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Warde, Colonel C. E. T |
| Denny, Colonel | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Lowe, Francis William | Webb, Col. William George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Macdona, John Cumming | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Majendie, James A. H. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Malcolm, Ian | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Finch, George H. | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Wylie, Alexander |
| Gardner, Ernest | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hardie,J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Malley, William |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda | Harwood, George | O'Mara, James |
| Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Helme, Norval Watson | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham |
| Asher, Alexander | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Partington, Oswald |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S., | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Phillips, John Wynford |
| Blake, Edward | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boland, John | Hutton, Alfred E, (Morley) | Priestley, Arthur |
| Brigg, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Reddy, M. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Joyce, Michael | Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries) |
| Burns, John | Kearley, Hudson E. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Burt, Thomas | Kennedy, Patrick James | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Labouchere, Henry | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Caldwell, James | Lambert, George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Langley, Batty | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Scott, Charles Prestwich (Leigh |
| Cawley, Frederick | Leese, Sir Joseph (Accrington) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Maurice | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Lewis, John Herbert | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Crombie, John William | Lloyd-George, David | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cullinan, J. | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Lundon, W. | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Delany, William | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, G'wer |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Dermott, Patrick | Tomkinson, James |
| Duffy, William J. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Tully, Jasper |
| Elibank, Master of | Murphy, John | Wallace, Robert |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Newnes, Sir George | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, George (Norfolk)- |
| Field, William | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Young, Samuel |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Dowd, John | |
| Haldane, Richard Burdon | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
§ Clause 2:—
§ MR. YOXALLsaid he desired to move an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for the Northwich Division of Cheshire. It was, at any rate, an effort to improve an admittedly trumpery and temporary measure, quite unworthy the name of an Education Bill.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 23, to leave out the word 'Education.' and insert the words 'Higher Grade Schools Temporary.'"—(Mr. Yoxall.)
§ Question put, "That the word 'education' stand part of the clause."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 363.)
1525| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Bain, Colonel James Robert | Beach, Rt,Hon.W.W.B.(Hants |
| Aird, Sir John | Baird, John George Alexander | Beckett, Ernest William |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Balcarres, Lord | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bignold, Arthur |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hop. John | Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Banbury, Frederick George | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex |
| Bailey, James (Waiworth) | Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H (Bristol | Brassey, Albert |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bull, William James | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Heath, James.(Staffords, N. W.) | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Butcher, John George | Helder, Augustus | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Higginbottom, S. W. | Purvis, Robert |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead | Randles, John S. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne- |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hope, J. F. Sheffield,(Brightsi'e | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hoult, Joseph | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Renwick, George |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'c | Hutton. John (Yorks., N. R.) | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Jebb, Sir Richard Clavgrhouse | Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton | Robinson, Brooke |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex) | Rutherford, John |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kenyon, James (Lanc, Bury) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kimber, Henry | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Knowles, Lees | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Law, Andrew Bonar | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lawson, John Grant | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Denny, Colonel | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareh'm | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage | Spear, John Ward |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Stroyan, John |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowe, Francis William | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Valentia, Viscount |
| Foster, PhilipS (Warwick, S. W.) | Macdona, John Cumming | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Gardner, Ernest | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Garfit, William | Majendie, James A. H. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. | Malcolm, Ian | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Middlemore, John Throgmortn | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Moon, Edw. Robert Pacy | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Morrell, George Herbert | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Greene, W. Raymonds-(Cambs.) | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Morrison, James Archibald | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Gretton, John | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R (Bath) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mount, William Arthur | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Groves, James Grimble | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Guthrie, Walter Murray | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hain, Edward | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midd'x | Nicol, Donald Ninian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfo'd | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Burt, Thomas | Delany, William |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Caldwell, James | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Doogan, P. C. |
| Asher, Alexander | Causton, Richard Knight | Duffy, William J. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Cawley, Frederick | Duncan, J. Hastings |
| Blake, Edward | Channing, Francis Allston | Elibank, Master of |
| Boland, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Brigg, John | Craig, Robert Hunter | Fenwick, Charles |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Crombie, John William | Ffrench, Peter |
| Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) | Cullinan, J. | Field, William |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) | Macnamnra, Dr. Thomas J. | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries |
| Gilhooly, James | M'Dermott, Patrick | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Murphy, John | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Hardie,J.Keir.(MerthyrTydv'l | Newnes, Sir George | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan,Col.JohnP.(Galway,N.) | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower. |
| Jones David Brynmor (Swansea | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W. R. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool | Tomkinson, James |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Trevelyan, Chas. Philips |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Dowd, John | Tully, Jasper |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Kelly Conor (Mayo, N.) | Wallace, Robert |
| Labouchere, Henry | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Lambert, George | O'Malley, William | Weir, James Galloway |
| Langley, Batty | O'Mara, James | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks., W. R. |
| Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Partington, Oswald | Young, Samuel |
| Levy, Maurice | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Power, Patrick Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Yoxall and Mr. Corrie Grant. |
| Lloyd-George, David | Priestley, Arthur | |
| Lough, Thomas | Reddy, M. | |
| Lundon, W. | Redmond, John E.(Waterford) |
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTI rise to a point of order with regard to the interpretation of Rule 25. I wish to ask whether a motion of that kind can be put unless the closure has previously taken place upon Amendments on the clause. The rule is as follows:—
When the motion 'That the question be now put,' has been carried and the question consequent thereon has been decided, any further motion may be made (the assent of the Chair as aforesaid not having been withheld) which may be requisite to bring to a decision any question already proposed from the Chair; and, also, if a clause be then under consideration, a motion may be made (the assent of the Chair as aforesaid not having been withheld) that the question that certain words of the clause defined in the motion stand part of the clause, or that the clause stand part of, or be added to, the Bill, be now put.Now, Mr. Lowther, I venture to submit to you whether it is not correct that a motion that the clause be put must be consequent on some preceding decision of the closure upon Amendments of that clause. As far as I can read this clause it seems to me that this proposal of the closure ought not to be put as an original motion with regard to the clause.
THE CHAIRMANI understand that the right hon. Gentleman moved in the exact words of the Standing Order. [Opposition cries of "No, no!"] He moved that the question that Clause 2 stand part of the Bill be now put— that is, the right hon. Gentleman has moved the closure. When the closure is carried, if it is carried, then there will be a second division dealing with the clause. The right hon. Gentleman is not now claiming that the clause should be put. He is moving the closure.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTYes, Sir. As I understand, he has moved the closure on the second clause. I ask your ruling on this point. Is it in the power of the Government—for that would be the consequence—is it in their power, in a Bill of a dozen clauses, say, to begin the discussion by moving the closure on each clause in succession, without any discussion of the clause? If so, we might have a Bill introduced, and a Minister might begin by moving that Clause 1 be now put, then that Clause 2 be now put, and Clause 3, and so on, and then that the Bill itself be carried without any discussion whatever.
THE CHAIRMANThe point put by the right hon. Gentleman to me is not 1527 exactly the point before us to-day, because to-day there was a cause under consideration. The clause has been considered and a decision has been taken with regard to it.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTNot on Clause 2.
THE CHAIRMANOh, yes, certainly. An Amendment was moved upon Clause 2 and a division was taken. Therefore, Clause 2 was under consideration. Thereupon the Leader of the House move that the question, "That the clause stand part of the Bill" be now put. It seems to be perfectly regular.
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)According to Standing Order 25 there must first of all have been a closure on the clause before the First Lord could claim to make the proposal which he has made. In this case there had been no anterior closure.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is perfectly correct. The only mistake he makes is that the question I am now going to put is the closure question—not the question that the clause stand part of the Bill.
§ MR. CALDWELLThere are two different points. I say that the carrying of Clause 1 was contrary to the Standing Order, because you ought not to have put the question "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill" unless there had been an anterior closure and a division.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is now quite in error. Even if he were not, he is not entitled to go back row to Clause 1. We are now on Clause 2.
§ MR. CALDWELLrose again.
§ MR. CALDWELLThe question "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill" has not been put at all. An hon. Member got up to move an Amendment, and before any question was put at all the question is put, and the question "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill" was not before the House at all.
*THE CHAIRMANThat is so. The hon. Member is perfectly right. If he will kindly read the Standing Order he will see that in the last paragraph it is allowable, if a clause be then under consideration, for a motion to be made that the question "That the clause stand part of the Bill" be now put, being the question which I am now going to put. The question is that the question "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill" be now put.
§ Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 186; Noes, 109. (Division List No. 364.)
1531| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Brassey, Albert | Crossley, Sir Savile |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Cust, Henry John C |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bull, William James | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Arrol, Sir William | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Butcher, John George | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cautley, Henry Strother | Doxford, Sir William Theodore |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants.) | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Gardner, Ernest |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Garfit, William |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Corbett, A, Cameron (Glasgow | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets |
| Bignold, Arthur | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Gore, Hn. GR. C. Ormsby-(Salop |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Cranborne, Viscount | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Rutherford, John |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse |
| Gretton, John | Lowe, Francis William | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Groves, James Grimble | Macdona, John Cumming | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Guthrie, Walter Murray | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Hain, Edward | Majendie, James A. H. | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midd'x | Malcolm, Ian | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd) | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Spear, John Ward |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.) | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w | Stroyan, John |
| Helder, Augustus | Morrell, George Herbert | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Hickman, Sir Alfred | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Morrison, James Archibald | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Mount, William Arthur | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hoult, Joseph | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney |
| Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton | Parkes, Ebenezer | Webb, Colonel Wm. George |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Peel, Rt. Hn. Wm. Rbt. Wellesley | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Whiteley, H (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury | Pretyman, Ernest George | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Purvis, Robert | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Kimber, Henry | Randles, John S. | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Knowles, Lees | Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Law, Andrew Bonar | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Lawson, John Grant | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wylie, Alexander |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Renwick, George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) | |
| Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Robinson, Brooke | |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ropner, Colonel Robert | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Fenwick, Charles | Lundon, W. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Ffrench, Peter | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. |
| Allen, CharlesP. (Glouc., Stroud | Field, William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Dermott, Patrick |
| Asher, Alexander | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Gilhooly, James | Murphy, John |
| Blake, Edward | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Boland, John | Griffith, Ellis J. | Newnes, Sir George |
| Brigg, John | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway N. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien Kendal (Tipperary Mid. |
| Burt, Thomas | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Caldwell, James | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Dowd, John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Callinan, J. | Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Malley, William |
| Delany, William | Langley, Batty | O'Mara, James |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) |
| Duffy, William J. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Partington, Oswald |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Levy, Maurice | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Elibank, Master of | Lewis, John Herbert | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lough, Thomas | Priestley, Arthur |
| Reddy, M. | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Soares, Ernest J. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Sullivan, Donal | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Rickett, J. Compton | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Young, Samuel |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Thomas, J. A. (Glam'gan, Gower | |
| Robson, William Snowdon | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks,. W. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Yoxall and Mr. Corrie Grant. |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Tully, Jasper | |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wallace, Robert | |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
1532§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 183; Noes, 107. (Division List No. 365.)
1533| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick. S. W | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gardner, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Garfit, William | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Godson, Sir Agustus Frederick | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby (Salop | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Goschen, Hn. George Joachim | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Grenfell, Willian Henry | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants.) | Gretton, John | Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Groves, James Grimble | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hain, Edward | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midx | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Brassey, Albert | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bull, William James | Heath, James (Staffords,N.W. | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Helder, Augustus | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard |
| Butcher, John George | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Higginbottom, S. W. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hoare, EdwBrodie (Hampstead | Purvis, Robert |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Randles, John S. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hoult, Joseph | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Renwick, George |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc's. | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Robinson, Brooke |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kimber, Henry | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Knowles, Lees | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Law, Andrew Bonar | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lawson, John Grant | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H | Spear, John Ward |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Legge, Col. Hon Heneage | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dixon-Poynder, Sir John P. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S | Stroyan John |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Sturt, Hon Humphrey Napier |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Britol, S) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowe, Francis William | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Valentia, Viscount | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Wanklyn, James Leslie | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George |
| Warr, Augustus Frederick | Wills, Sir Frederick | |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Webb, Col. Wm. George | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) | |
| Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr, Tydvil | O'Mara, James |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Allen, Chas, P. (Glouc, Stroud | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Partington, Oswald |
| Asher, Alexander | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Blake, Edward | Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a | Priestley, Arthur |
| Boland, John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Reddy, M. |
| Brigg, John | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kennedy, Patrick James | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Langley, Batty | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Burt, Thomas | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Aceringt'n | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Caldwell, James | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lough, Thomas | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, W. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire |
| Cullinan, J. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | M'Dermott, Patrick | Sullivan, Donal |
| Delany, William | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E J |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Murphy, John | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gow'r |
| Duffy, William J. | Newnes, Sir George | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W. R.) |
| Elibank, Master of | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Tully, Jasper |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wallace, Robert |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Weir, James Galloway |
| Field, William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.> |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Young, Samuel |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Dowd, John | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Duncan and Mr. Levy. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. | |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William | O'Malley, William |
THE CHAIRMANThe new clauses standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Nottingham are outside the four corners of the Bill. The new clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid Lanarkshire is also out of order. The Bill cannot extend to Scotland, as it uses phraseology which is only applicable to England. For instance, the words "county boroughs" find no pplication in Scotland. "The Board of Education" does not apply to Scotland, neither do the Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891 apply to Scotland.
§ MR. CALDWELLMay I explain that according to statute law the Bill applies to the United Kingdom, unless a special exemption is made. The words 1534 "school boards" and "county councils" do apply to Scotland as well as England. There is a great deal in this clause which applies to both England and Scotland. May I point out also that in the Education Act for England and Wales there is a special clause—notwithstanding the title saying that it shall not apply to either Scotland or Ireland. So there is in the Elementary Education Act of 1870. There is nothing to prevent this Act applying to Scotland unless we specially exclude it.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire)The question whether an Act applies to Scotland or not is always deduced from the terms of the Act. There are many cases in 1535 which no special clause excluding Scotland has been inserted.
§ MR. THOMAS SHAW (Hawick Burghs)May I say, with all respect for the ruling of the Chair, that my fear is that serious questions may be raised in the future. You, Sir, have referred to certain terms employed in Clause 1, but may I point out that it is perfectly possible to equate the operative provisions of the Bill apart altogether from those terms. Where, for instance, you have a delinquent school board misapplying school funds, the Bill might be equally applicable to Scotland and to England. You might have, in fact, very serious arguments put forward if you do not insert the clause providing that the Bill shall not apply to Scotland. If there is any doubt on the point, I do hope that steps will be taken to remove it.
THE CHAIRMANI have listened carefully to the statement of the hon. Member, and I see no reason to alter my decision.
§ MR. LAWSON WALTON (Leeds, S.)said he had intended to move the addition of a sub-section to the first section, and he desired now to move it as a new clause.
§ MR. LAWSON WALTONsaid he put it down originally as an Amendment to the first clause purely as a matter of symmetrical arrangement, but he would
§ point out that the sub-section was entirely independent of the first clause. It should also be borne in mind that he was prevented moving it by the application of the closure. What his clause proposed to do was to establish appellate machinery for cases in which the county could have acted capriciously, to provide for cases in which there was a difference of opinion as to the terms on which education was to be carried on, and to deal with the impasse which might arise by the county council refusing to entertain this jurisdiction. He would suggest with very great respect that the clause dealt with an entirely new matter, and he asked leave, therefore, to propose it:
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member has submitted two points, one of substance and the other of form. As to the question of form, the proposal ought to have been made part of the main clause, and he himself showed that that was his view by actually putting it down as an Amendment to that clause. As to the question of substance, I do not know whether it will be any consolation to the hon. Member to know that if he had moved the proposal as an Amendment to the clause, it would have been ruled out of order. The question is that "I report this Bill without Amendment to the House."
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without amendment, to the House."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 171: Noes, 98. (Division List No. 366.)
1539| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Bignold, Arthur | Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Boscawen, Arthur Griffith. | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse |
| Arrol, Sir William | Brassey, Albert | Compton, Lord Alwyne |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Bull, William James | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Butcher, John George | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Cripps, Charles Alfred |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Cautley, Henry Strother | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Crossley, Sir Savile |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Cust, Henry John C. |
| Beach, Rt. Hon. W. W. B. (Hants. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich | Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Knowles, Lees | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lawson, John Grant | Robinson, Brooke |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Leveson Gower, Frederick N. S | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Loder, Gerald W. Erskine | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Garfit, William | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Lowe, Francis William | Spear, John Ward |
| Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby (Salop | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir john Eldon | Macdona, John Cumming | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Stroyan, John |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Majendie, James A. E. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Malcolm, Ian | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Groves, James Grimble | Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Guthrie, Walter Murray | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Hain, Edward | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G (Midd'x | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'donderry) | Morrell, George Herbert | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Morrison, James Archibald | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.) | Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton) |
| Holder, Augustus | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Hoult, Joseph | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks) |
| Howard, J. (Mid., Tottenham) | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. (Bath |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wylie, Alexander |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Purvis, Robert | |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Randles, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh. | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | |
| Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury) | Reid, James (Grenock) | |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Remnant, James Farquharson | |
| Kimber, Henry | Renwick, George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Ffrench, Peter | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen |
| Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murphy, John |
| Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Gilhooly, James | Newnes, Sir George |
| Asher, Alexander | Grant, Corrie | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Boland, John | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Brigg, John | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Burt, Thomas | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Caldwell, James | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | O'Donnell, T. Kerry, W. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Dowd, John |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'ns'a | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N. |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Malley, William |
| Cullinan, J. | Langley, Batty | O'Mara, James |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Delany, William | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accringt'n | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Philips, John Wynford |
| Doogan, P. C. | Levy, Maurice | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, W. | Reddy, M. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Dermott, Patrick | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) |
| Rickett, J. Compton | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Robson, William Snowdon | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) | Young, Samuel |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Tully, Jasper | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B) | Wallace, Robert | |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Captain Sinclair. |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Weir, James Galloway | |
| Sullivan, Donal | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
§ Bill reported, without amendment; to be read the third time upon Monday next.