HC Deb 15 July 1901 vol 97 cc531-47

"That a sum, not exceeding £705,771 (including a supplementary sum of £5,000), be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for the Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, including a Grant in Aid of the Teachers' Pension Fund, Ireland."

Resolution read a second time.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

said he desired to ask the Chief Secretary whether certain circumstances had been brought to his notice in connection with the training college in Marlborough Street, Dublin, which was under the National Board of Education. That college had been in existence nearly as long as the Board of Education itself. It was strictly undenominational, and was attended by students who were Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Methodists. The residence for men was in Great George's Street, and consisted of two or three tenement houses which were a perfect disgrace, and to which the attention of the sanitary authorities ought long since to have been called. He had gone over the whole of the houses, and he thought the Chief Secretary would be driven to admit that they were not places where the students ought to be lodged. At the house in Talbot Street for the female students there had been so much illness that it had been found necessary to take a health resort for them at Glasnevin. That was a state of affairs which ought not to continue to exist. So long as the National Board of Education was in existence—and he did not care how soon it went out of existence—so long as it pretended to manage a college for the training of teachers, the students were entitled to decent treatment. In 1891 they were promised something like decent treatment, but they had not got what was promised by the First Lord of the Treasury. It was the duty of the board to see that the students were properly taken care of and provided for. He begged formally to move the reduction of the Vote by £100.

Amendment proposed,— To leave out '£705,771,' and insert '£705,671' instead thereof."—(Mr. T. W. Russell.)

Question proposed. "That £705,771' stand part of the Resolution.'

MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.)

said that the question raised by the hon. Member for South Tyrone was a very important one, which ought to receive the consideration of the Chief Secretary. He could speak from experience and from intimate acquaintance with the college buildings, that their condition was a disgrace to the Board of Education. He had lived in these houses, and had only been too glad to get out of them with his life. No matter whether these students were Catholics, or Episcopalians, or Presbyterians they were to be the teachers of the youth of Ireland, and the Board of Education ought to take more interest in their training and the conditions under which that training was carried on. But this was only one of the many charges which could be brought against the Board and the officials of the Board. The members of the Board had no interest whatever in the great work with which they were charged. He had heard, a few days ago, of a member of the Board who had never attended a meeting of the Board for fifteen years, but who had been whipped up for some particular occasion in order to give his vote. About twelve months ago this gentleman was waited upon by a deputation of teachers in Belfast who wanted his support for a change in the regulations of the new scheme. The gentleman listened to what the deputation had to say, and then he asked, "Has there been any new scheme? I have never heard of it." That was a specimen of the gentlemen who were supposed to direct the educational destinies of their country. His ignorance was on a par with the negligence and incapacity of the permanent officials, who did all in their power to block Irish education. Dr. Walsh had always taken a keen interest in education, and had brought to his work a trained intelligence, as he had been a teacher himself, and, moreover, he had a great love for the people. After working for a number of years as a member of the Board, and effecting a number of reforms, he found his efforts practically useless, because the officials of the Board blocked him on every hand. His grace resigned his position on the Board, but not till he had exhausted all his patience; he said that it was impossible to set matters right from within, and he took the course which it was to be hoped would lead to setting matters right from without. When the new scheme of education was introduced complaints were forwarded to the Board from no fewer than 3,000 teachers who had been injuriously affected, but these were all left in the hands of one official, the Assistant Financial Secretary; and only 300 of these complaints had been attended to, the rest having been thrown into the waste-paper basket. It was the business of the Board to have made careful inquiry into all these complaints, and to have found out whether there was justice in the complaints made. The question of the residual grant had also not received the attention which it deserved from the Chief Secretary. The teachers claimed the balance of that residual grant, amounting to over £18,000, which had been withheld from them. They had been told that all the money that was due had been paid in April, 1901, but such was not the fact, and if the Chief Secretary were to go into that branch of the question, he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree with Dr. Walsh. It was a blunder of an official who now adhered to his statement that the money was not due. Of course, when an official Plundered he was always backed up from the Treasury Bench. Was that the way to set matters right? He trusted that the debate on Friday night last and that night would show the House and the people of Ireland that the education of Ireland should not be entrusted to men who had shown themselves so hopelessly incompetent, They had proved their case for an inquiry into the conduct of the Board of Education in Ireland, but their demands for inquiry and reform had been denied by the British House of Commons. The people of Ireland should take the matter into their own hands, and the sooner the Board of Education was swept away and the education of Irish children was placed in the hands of the representatives of the people the better it would be for Ireland and the easier it would be for the House of Commons.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON (Armagh N.)

said he entirely sympathised with the remarks of the hon. Member for South Tyrone with regard to the condition of the residences in connection with Marl-borough Street Training College. He was sure the Chief Secretary would give an assurance to the House that some steps would be taken to prevent the unfortunate persons, who would become school teachers in Ireland, if they survived the sanitary conditions which existed at present, from being obliged to live in such places. He was perfectly certain that in England, Scotland, or Wales these conditions would not be tolerated for a moment, and he did not see why Irish students should be subjected to them. The condition of the tenements was a scandalous grievance which could not be defended by anybody.

MR. SPEAKER

The question of the buildings comes under the Vote in Class 1, and not Class 4. The present Vote refers to administration and salaries.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

said he would not enter into the question in detail. He would only allude to the question of the buildings as a very striking illustration of the gross neglect of their business by the Board.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is proceeding to discuss the buildings. He should defer his observations on that subject to Class 1, as they are not suitable on this Vote.

MR. DILLON

We are in rather an awkward position as regards the Amendment. I understood that the Amendment was moved for the purpose of calling attention to this matter.

MR. SPEAKER

On the Report stage there can be but one Amendment.

MR. DILLON

said he did not propose to go over the ground which was traversed pretty fully on Friday. He did not think it would be possible now to have a discussion on the general condition of education in Ireland, which, of course, they could not enter upon on Friday last, because the whole of the time was occupied on one matter—the disorganisation of the National Board, and the resignation of the Archbishop of Dublin. He believed he would be permitted, with the indulgence of the Chair, to demur from one observation that fell from his hon. friend the Member for West Kerry, who stated that the students were compelled to live in the lowest part of the city. They lived in the same street as he lived in himself. The houses were more comfortable and well built, and he ventured to say they were as fine and as beautiful as in any city in the world. It was all the more disgraceful, therefore, that the students' residences should be in the condition which had been described.

MR. TULLY (Leitrim, S.)

said the right hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh had just come back from his 12th of July experiences at meetings, where his friends had been passing votes of censure on His Majesty's Government. When the right hon. and gallant Member got up to support the hon. Member for South Tyrone he thought his remarks were, as Mark Twain said on a similar occasion, a little "surcustic." This Vote had reference to the salaries of the officials who were entrusted with the administration of the scheme of education in Ireland, and if they had allowed the buildings to get into an insanitary condition, the buildings should come under the supervision of the sanitary authority of the Dublin Corporation.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member cannot go into that.

MR. TULLY

said that on Friday last, when they were discussing the conduct of the Resident Commissioner of Education, that gentleman favoured the House with his presence and occupied a seat under the gallery. He was allowed to make most insulting remarks towards Members who were addressing the House. It was outrageous that a public official connected with one of the boards of Ireland should come over and treat the House in the manner he had done. He had treated the Irish Members in the way he would have done if they had been in Ireland. There was no regard for the Irish Members when in Ireland. The officials seemed to think that any treatment was good enough for them. The Resident Commissioner, when sitting under the gallery, was even sarcastic about the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. If any one turned to the Daily News he would find the remarks which Dr. Starkie made during his eloquent and graceful speech.

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! That has nothing to do with the Vote. If there was disorder in the House from underneath the gallery attention should have been called to it at the time.

MR. TULLY

said he quite appreciated that by the ruling he could not refer to the conduct of the Resident Commissioner of Education when he came to the House. Probably that did not come within the purview of the Vote, but they were now discussing a Vote which included the Resident Commissioner's salary—a gentleman who had acquired manners in Ireland which he carried even so far as the precincts of this House. The Resident Commissioner was in his opinion imcompetent for the discharge of his duties, and Dr. Walsh was obliged to resign his membership of the National Board on account of the state of chaos, and confusion in the office of the Board. Dr. Starkie had written to Dr. Walsh that certain officials in the office were perfectly hopeless, and that he could do nothing with them. If the right hon. Gentleman had sat out the debate on Friday evening, he would have entertained a different view of Dr. Starkie's conduct than he did on the present occasion The Vote included a sum of £18,000 for the National Teachers' Pension Fund and gratuities. He knew that when the pension fund was started they were told that with a contribution of 2½ per cent. from the teachers, the fund would be perfectly solvent for all the demands that could be made upon it. The actuary had humbugged the Government and the public in that respect, and it was perfectly outrageous that Parliament should be asked to correct the figures put before them by this actuary. The Government ought to have looked more carefully into the matter. The result was that the teachers had suffered and Parliament had suffered, because the pensions had been reduced from £80 a year to £62 a year, and now Parliament was called on to vote a sum of £18,000 to save the fund from bankruptcy. They were entitled to some explanation in regard to this pension fund, and in regard to Dr. Starkie, who had shown his bad manners under the gallery on Friday night.

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)

said he had not risen at all to encourage the prolongation of the debate, although he regretted the ruling of the Chairman which prevented him from referring to the subject raised by the hon. Member for South Tyrone. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give them some assurance in regard to the larger question raised in the debate on Friday night, although that only covered a portion of the subject-matter of this Vote. In the course of the discussion on Friday, certain letters had been read which had been written by Dr. Starkie to Dr. Walsh. When he initiated the discussion he was not in possession of these letters, and he was afraid that sufficient attention had not been called to them; and the Chief Secretary was apparently in a difficulty because he had had only time to glance at them. These letters were of the most extraordinary and important character. The charge that they had made was that the whole working of this great public Department had broken down, and it was on that complaint that Archbishop Walsh had resigned his seat on the Board of Education. They had endeavoured to prove their contention by a variety of circumstances, but now they had these letters from the Resident Commissioner to Dr. Walsh, in which that gentleman declared that the Education office was in a state of confusion, that he could not get the work properly done, and that two of the higher officials were absolutely hopeless. Now, the Chief Secretary, taken at a disadvantage, had on Friday night skimmed over these letters as lightly as possible, and did not give anything like a considered answer to them. Some time had elapsed since then, and what he wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman was whether in view of these statements he proposed to institute an inquiry into these allegations, or whether he intended to take any steps at all. The, matter could not be left untouched in the present position. What he rose for was to put this point to the Chief Secretary—that having now had time to consider these letters since last Friday, did he propose to take any action—did he propose to institute any inquiry, or did he seriously tell the House of Commons that this Department was to be allowed to jog along as before, and that no inquiry whatever was to be made into the allegations with regard to its failure by the head of the Department? This question was one of vital importance, and everyone would admit that he was taking a perfectly reasonable attitude in asking the Chief Secretary to give a clear answer to his request.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,) Dover

I am precluded by the forms of the House from dealing with the first matter brought before us, but as the hon. Member asked me to give some assurance that I will look to the matter, I can only say that at the instance of Dr. Starkie, who I think has been somewhat unfairly criticised, I have given my attention to the question of the housing of the un- denominational students. I cannot go into a matter involving questions of additional money, and also of a particular site, which are the subject of communications between a public Department and the Treasury, beyond expressing the hope that a solution may be arrived at, and arrived at soon. I think the only other point was that raised by the hon. Member for Waterford. It was a question addressed to myself whether I had, on reflection, come to any conclusion other than that which I gave to the House on Friday last in regard to the demand for an inquiry. He bases that question on the letters addressed by Dr. Starkie to Archbishop Walsh in May last, which were published in the Freeman's Journal of Friday last. I had, as the hon. Member had, only a brief opportunity of studying the letter, but I had the advantage of being aware of Dr. Starkie's own views on that matter, and I expressed those views very frankly to the House. Those were private expressions on his part in regard to the kind of difficulties which present themselves to any man who is engaged energetically in carrying out a complicated and difficult task. I cannot abandon the position I took up on Friday. I must still hold to the opinion I then expressed—namely, that in respect of the letters to the teachers sent out from the Department a sufficient cause for inquiry has not been made out. There were 188 in all, and therefore in regard to the contention urged by the hon. Member for West Kerry it is not the case that so many letters have been dismissed without attention. Only 188 teachers were informed that there was no case for exceptional treatment in respect of the claims they preferred. I cannot make the speech again that I made on Friday, but I must still hold that what took place in that Department would have taken place in any public department under so great a strain, and that brings me back to what the hon. Member for Waterford said with respect to the reflection of Dr. Starkie upon certain officials.

MR. JOHN REDMOND

Reflection? It was more than that. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not intentionally mislead hon. Members who were not present when the letter was read. Dr. Starkie said that two of the highest officials in the office were hopeless, and he was hopeless of being able to do any good.

MR. WYNDHAM

All I can say is that he is not hopeless now. He is sanguine. I cannot say more than what I have said upon the value of private communications, which contained a hasty judgment by one official on some of his subordinates, when both are engaged in a difficult task. I said on Friday night that this is a question of staff, and that there are men in that office who might be superannuated as soon as they can be. I think the hon. Member will admit that I dealt in a liberal spirit with that side of the question on Friday night. In my opinion, it would be well if some of the officials in that office were not kept so long. I said that on Friday, and I repeat it now; but I say that to institute a public inquiry at the end of July into the work of this office, engaged with a great measure of success in getting through with a difficult task, is not a practical proposal which I could submit to the House. If I did submit it, the House would reject it as being unworkable.

MR. NANNETTI (Dublin, College Green)

said he had been trying for the last six months to get an answer with regard to a grievance which he had repeatedly brought before the House. He protested against the vote for this Board, because on the Chief Secretary's own showing the office was hopelessly gone. The right hon. Gentleman admitted no later than last Thursday that he was disappointed at not being able to get a reply to a query put to the Board two months ago. A question was put down on 14th May last with reference to the manner in which the city of Dublin was flooded with books from Scotland and elsewhere for the teaching of the children of Ireland. The Chief Secretary told him if he would repeat the question in a fortnight he would be able to give an answer. When the fortnight had elapsed the right hon. Gentleman told him that he had not yet received an answer. He was satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman had done his best. He came again in another fortnight and got a similar reply. Last week he was told that the Board of Commissioners had not yet had time to give an answer to this simple question. This Board was either undermanned or incompetent. In view of the way the Chief Secretary's request had been treated they could well imagine the way in which the Archbishop of Dublin had been treated by these people. The point he wished to bring out was that, owing to the want of sympathy between the Board and the people of Ireland, the claims of the workers of Dublin were being neglected. Books which should be printed and bound in the country were imported in cartloads. This was a serious matter to the workmen of Dublin. Two years ago there were thirty-five bookbinders employed on these books in that city, and now there were not two. There were certain members on the Board of Education who were in the pay of Messrs. Blackie, and the binders and others believed that it was owing to the fact that these men were in the employ of that firm that the work was going to Glasgow, with the result that the bookbinders of Dublin were deprived of that to which they were entitled. He was sorry to be compelled to make that statement. He had withheld it as long as he could, and he would ask the attention of the Chief Secretary to the matter.

MR. WYNDHAM

Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to interrupt him. He has forgotten the terms of the answer I gave. I said that I am still in

communication with them. The point is not so simple as the hon. Member supposes. It is a nice legal point, and on that I am endeavouring to get a solution.

MR. NANNETTI

said he was quite satisfied that the Chief Secretary had done his best. He did not hold the right hon. Gentleman responsible for the action of the Commissioners. He would remind the Chief Secretary that the answer was that the subject had been put on the agenda, and would be considered at the next meeting. He was determined to have an answer to the question. Some of the gentlemen who were acting as commissioners were also editors for Messrs. Blackie.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL

considered the reply of the right hon. Gentleman was unsympathetic in the extreme, and did not contain the shadow of a recognition of the gravity of the subject to which he had called attention. He must therefore divide.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)

rose to continue the debate, when

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 145; Noes. R. Division List No. 333.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Butcher, John George Dorington, Sir John Edward
Agg-Ggardner, James Tynte Cautley, Henry Strother Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)> Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell Cayzer, Sir Charles William Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Aikwright, John Stanhope Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Arrol, Sir William Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Finch, George H.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy Chapman, Edward Fisher, Wm. Hayes
Bain, Colonel James Robert Charrington, Spencer Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Balcarres, Lord Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Forster, Henry William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Compton, Lord Alwyne Gardner, Ernest
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christch'ch Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)
Bathurst, Hn. Allen B. Crossley, Sir Savile Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml's)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Dalkeith, Earl of Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Bignold, Arthur Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bond, Edward Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Brassey, Albert Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hambro, Charles Eric
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x) Macdona, John Cumming Round, James
Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'derry M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W Russell, T. W.
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Majendie, James A. H. Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Harris, Frederick Leverton Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. WF. Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Hay, Hon. Claude George Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Seely, Charles Hilton(Lincoln)
Heath, ArthurHoward Hanley Milner, Sir Frederick G. Seely, Capt. JEB.(Isle of Wight
Heath, James(Staffords, N. W.) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Helder, Augustus Moon, Edward Robt. Pacy Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Henderson, Alexander Morgan, David J.(Walthamst. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. Morgan, Hn. Fred.(Monm'thsh. Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Higgin bottom, S. W. Morrell, George Herbert Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hogg, Lindsay Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside Mount, William Arthur Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.
Hoult, Joseph Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. Thornton, Percy M.
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.) Murrry, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Valentia, Viscount
Keswick, William Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Wason, John C. (Orkney)
Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley Welby, Lt-ColA.C.E. (Taunton
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Plummer, Walter R. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Lawson, John Grant Pretyman, Ernest George Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) Purvis, Robert Willox, Sir John Archibald
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Randles, John S. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Carrie Ratcliff, R. F. Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. Reid, James (Greenock) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham Rentoul, James Alexander
Long, RtHn Walter (Bristol, S.) Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft Robertson, Herbert (Hackney
NOES.
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John
Asher, Alexander Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale O'Malley, William
Black, Alexander William Helme, Norval Watson O'Mara, James
Boland, John Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Brigg, John Joyce, Michael O'Shee, James John
Burke, E. Haviland- Kennedy, Patrick James Power, Patrick Joseph
Caldwell, James Leamy, Edmund Reddy, M.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Levy, Maurice Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Clancy, John Joseph Lundon, W. Redmond, William (Clare)
Cogan, Denis J. MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Condon, Thomas Joseph MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crean, Eugene Mooney, John J. Soares, Ernest J.
Cullinan, J. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Sullivan, Donal
Delany, William Murphy, John Tully, Jasper
Dillon, John Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Donelan, Capt. A. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Doogan, P. C. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duffy, William J. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wilson, Henry J.(Yorks, W. R.)
Ffrench, Peter O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.
Flvnn, James Christopher O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Question put accordingly, "That, '£705,771' stand part of the Resolution."

The House divided:—Ayes, 140; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 334.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Balcarres, Lord Butcher, John George
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cautley, Henry Strother
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire
Anson, Sir William Reynell Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Arkwright, John Stanhope Balfour, Maj KR. (Christchurch Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Arrol, Sir William Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bignold, Arthur Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worcr'
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Bond, Edward Chapman, Edward
Bain, Colonel James Robert Brassey, Albert Charrington, Spencer
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Higginbottom, S. W. Plummer, Walter R.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hogg, Lindsay Pretyman, Ernest George
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Purvis, Robert
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hoult, Joseph Randles, John S.
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Howard, John (Kent, F'versh'm Ratcliff, R. F.
Crossley, Sir Savile Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Reid, James (Greenock)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) Rentoul, James Alexander
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Keswick, William Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lawson, John Grant Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham Round, James
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Leveson, Gower, Frederick N. S. Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Finch, George H. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Loyd, Archie Kirkman Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Macdona, John Cumming Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Forster, Henry William M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S. W. Majendie, James A. H. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Gardner, Ernest Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F. Thornton, Percy M.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'ml'ts Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Valentia, Viscount
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morgan, David J.(Walthamst'w Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Hambro, Charles Eric Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x Morrell, George Herbert Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Harris, Frederick Leverton Mount, William Arthur Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Hay, Hon. Claude George Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Helder, Augustus Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Henderson, Alexander Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John
Asher, Alexander Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Malley, William
Black, Alexander William Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Mara, James
Boland, John Helme, Norval Watson O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Brigg, John Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. O'Shee, James John
Burke, E. Haviland- Joyce, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph
Caldwell, James Kennedy, Patrick James Reddy, M.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Leamy, Edmund Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Clancy, John Joseph Levy, Maurice Redmond, William (Clare)
Cogan, Denis J. Lundon, W. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Condon, Thomas Joseph MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crean, Eugene MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Soares, Ernest J.
Cullinan, J. Mooney, John J. Sullivan, Donal
Delany, William Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Tully, Jasper
Dillon, John Murphy, John White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Donelan, Captain A. Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Patrick (Meath, North
Doogan, P. C. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duffy, William J. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Ffrench, Peter O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Thomas O'Donnell.
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Gilhooly, James O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
MR. A. J. BALFOUR

claimed, "That the Main Question be now put."

Main Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Com- mittee in the said Resolution."

The House divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 64. (Division List No. 335.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Cap. Sir Alex. F. Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Forster, Henry William Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Gardner, Ernest Mount, William Arthur
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Arrol, Sir William Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Asher, Alexander Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Bigot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Bain, Colonel James Robert Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry Plummer, Walter R.
Balcarres, Lord Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Pretyman, Ernest George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Harris, Frederick Leverton Purvis, Robert
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Hay, Hon. Claude George Ratcliff, R. F.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Reid, James (Greenock)
Balfour, Maj K. R. (Christchurch Helder, Augustus Rentoul, James Alexander
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)
Butcher, John George Higginbottom, S. W. Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Cautley, Henry Strother Hogg, Lindsay Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Round, James
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hoult, Joseph Russell, T. W.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Seely, Capt. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Keswick, William Smith, Abel H.(Herts., East)
Chapman, Edward Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Smith' Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Charrington, Spencer Lawson, John Grant Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Compton, Lord Alwyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Thornton, Percy M.
Crossley, Sir Savile Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Dilkeith, Earl of Lonsdale, John Brownlee Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Loyd, Archie Kirkman Valentia, Viscount
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Majendie, James A. H. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Finch, George H. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Fisher, William Hayes Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w
NOES.
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Malley, William
Black, Alexander William Helme, Norval Watson O'Mara, James
Boland, John Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Brigg, John Joyce, Michael O'Shee, James John
Burke, E. Haviland- Kennedy, Patrick James Power, Patrick Joseph
Caldwell, James Leamy, Edmund Reddy, M.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Levy, Maurice Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Clancy, John Joseph Lundon, W. Redmond, William (Clare)
Cogan, Denis J. MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Condon, Thomas Joseph MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Shipman, Dr. John G.
Crean, Eugene Mooney, John J. Soares, Ernest J.
Cullinan, J. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Sullivan, Donal
Delany, William Murphy, John Tully, Jasper
Dillon, John Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Donelan, Captain A. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) White, Patrick (Meath, N.)
Doogan, P. C. O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duffy, William J. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)
Ffrench, Peter O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow) W.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.
Flynn, James Christopher O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Gilhooly, James O Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John