§ 6. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £926,905, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—
| £ | ||
| 2. | Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates, etc. | 210,049 |
| 3. | Colonial Services | 308,006 |
| 4. | Cyprus, Grant in Aid | 1,000 |
| 5. | Subsidies to Telegraph Companies | 27,850 |
| 7. | Treasury Chest Fund | 305,000 |
| 8. | Loan to Wuchang Viceroy | 75,000 |
| £926,905 |
§ MR. DILLONrose to a point of order. He drew attention to the fact that in this Vote were included two Votes that were not rightly included under the new rule, a Supplementary Vote by way of loan to the Viceroy of Wu-chang and also the Treasury Chest Fund, Votes of a character in respect to which the First Lord of the Treasury gave a pledge two years ago that they should not be included in the general closure.
*THE CHAIRMANA pledge given by a Minister does not in any way bind me. I do not think the hon. Member has raised his point of order on a sure foundation. The rule is—
Provided always that any additional Estimate for any new service or matter not included in the original Estimate of the year shall be submitted for consideration two clear days before the Committee is closed.I would like not to give an opinion with regard to the Treasury Chest Fund, but the loan to the Wu-chang Viceroy is an additional Estimate not included in the original Estimate, and then arose the question in my mind, Has it been submitted for consideration in Committee of Supply? I confess for some time I had considerable doubt, but I may say I have consulted the Speaker on the matter, and he and I are now agreed that the Vote was submitted for consideration 160 when it was put down as the second Vote on the Paper. "Submitted for consideration" does not mean "proposed from the Chair." That is the view of the Speaker, and that view I entirely share. "Proposed from the Chair" is, of course, a well-known expression, which has been frequently used in the Standing Orders and Rules of this House, but "submitted for consideration" the Speaker holds, and I hold, is a condition that has been fulfilled by the matter being made an effective Supply Vote on a particular day more than two days before the Committee closed.
§ MR. DILLONappealed to the First Lord of the Treasury to say whether that was an observance of the pledge which he had given to the House upon a former occasion.
*THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is entitled to address me on a point of order, but no debate is permitted. I say that both last year and the year before there are precedents in this matter. Last year there was a Vote for Local Taxation (Ireland), a new Vote, and an additional Estimate for a new matter not in the original Estimate. It was put down for consideration in Supply two days before the closure day, but it was not discussed. The year before—1899—exactly the same thing occurred with a Vote for the Paris Exhibition. These are two precedents on all fours with the present Votes as to which the hon. Member has raised the point of order. In the face of these two precedents, I hold that the condition has been complied with in this case.
§ MR. DILLONsubmitted that this point was never raised before, and if that was so, he contended that the cases which the Chairman had quoted had no bearing on the point of order. He respectfully submitted to the Chairman that it was not in accordance with either the letter ro the spirit of the rule that a Vote which had never been submitted to the Committee and which the Committee of Supply had had no opportunity whatever of discussing should be included 161 under the closure rule in the face of the proviso he had quoted. He intended to take an early opportunity of reminding the First Lord of the Treasury of his pledge.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.), upon a point of order, contended that "submitted for consideration" did not mean that a certain motion had been simply put upon the Notice Paper, for that could have no practical bearing on the point. [Ministerial cries of "Oh, oh!"] He was not speaking to hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were not intelligent enough to understand him, but he was addressing the Chairman upon a point of order. He wished to remind the Chairman of what ought to be within the knowledge of every hon. member of the House who was acquainted with Parliamentary procedure, that this rule with regard to notice papers and the printing of notices was a very modern innovation indeed. It would be utterly impossible to suggest—
*THE CHAIRMANI am afraid I must ask the hon. Member to limit his remarks simply to his point of order, for he is not entitled to make a speech.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he would endeavour to do so if the Chairman would restrain the interruptions of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He wished to point out that these printed notices were modern innovations.
*THE CHAIRMANThat is not relevant to the point of order. May I be allowed to point out that if the hon. Member were in my position he might give a different ruling, but it devolves upon me to decide what these words mean. I have given my decision after consulting the highest authority in the House, and I do not really think that there is anything more to discuss upon this question.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILL, who was greeted with loud Ministerial cries of "Order, order!" said he again submitted that it was utterly impossible for any order or for any judgment to be based upon the Orders of the Day, because the Orders of the Day were mere matters of convenience, and were not pertinent to the legislation of this House. They were merely a modern innovation simply for the convenience of the House.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 242; Noes, 139. (Division List No. 426.)
165| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Doxford, Sir William Theodore |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Butcher, John George | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Carlile, William Walter | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Finch, George H. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) | Chapman, Edward | Firbank, Joseph Thomas |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Charrington, Spencer | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Fison, Frederick William |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Fitroy, Hon. Edward Algernon |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Flower, Ernest |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Forster, Henry William |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Bignold, Arthur | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Gardner, Ernest |
| Bigwood, James | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Garfit, William |
| Bill, Charles | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) |
| Bond, Edward | Cranborne, Viscount | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Crossley, Sir Savile | Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Davenport, William Bromley- | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Denny, Colonel | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Brassey, Albert | Dickson, Charles Scott | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.) | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bull, William James | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) |
| Gretton, John | Maconochie, A. W. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Groves, James Grimble | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Hain, Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Round, James |
| Haldane, Richard Burdon | Majendie, James A. H. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Rutherford, John |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid.) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. E. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Heath, James (Staffords. N. W | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Henderson, Alexander | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. | Morrell, George Herbert | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Hope, J. E. (Sheffield Brightside) | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hornby, Sir William Henry | Mount, William Arthur | Spear, John Ward |
| Hoult, Joseph | Muntz, Philip A. | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) |
| Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Myers, William Henry | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Parker, Gilbert | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Paulton, James Mellor | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Kenyon, Hn. G. T. (Denbigh) | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Keswick, William | Pemberton, John S. G. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Kimber, Henry | Penn, John | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. | Pierpoint, Robert | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Law, Andrew Bonar | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Lawrence, Wm. L. (Liverpool) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lawson, John Grant | Plummer, Walter R. | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Pretyman, Ernest George | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Leveson-Cower, Fredk. N. S. | Purvis, Robert | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un.-Lyne |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Pym, C. Guy | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Randles, John S. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Rankin, Sir James | Williams, Rt Hn J Powell- (Birm. |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Lowe, Francis William | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks., E. R.) |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.) |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Renwick, George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) | |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Doogan, P. C. |
| Asher, Alexander | Cawley, Frederick | Duffy, William J. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Channing, Francis Allston | Elibank, Master of |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Clancy, John Joseph | Emmott, Alfred |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Cogan, Denis J. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Bell, Richard | Colville, John | Fenwick, Charles |
| Boland, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Field, William |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Crean, Eugene | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Boyle, James | Crombie, John William | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Brigg, John | Cullinan, J. | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Daly, James | Gilhooly, James |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Dalziel, James Henry | Grant, Corrie |
| Burns, John | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Burt, Thomas | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Caine, William Sproston | Delany, William | Hammond, John |
| Caldwell, James | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Cameron, Robert | Dillon, John | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Moss, Samuel | Robson, William Snowdon) |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | Murnaghan, George | Roche, John |
| Holland, William Henry | Murphy, John | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a | Norman, Henry | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | Sullivan, Donald |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) | Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N |
| Lambert, George | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Ure, Alexander |
| Leamy, Edmund | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wallace, Robert |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | O'Dowd, John | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Levy, Maurice | O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Lloyd-George, David | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Lough, Thomas | O'Malley, William | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Lundon, W. | O'Mara, James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | O'Shee, James John | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Partington, Oswald | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| M'Dermott, Patrick | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| M'Fadden, Edward | Power, Patrick Joseph | Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd |
| M'Govern, T. | Reddy, M. | |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Whitley. |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Redmond, William (Clare) | |
| Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Rickett, J. Compton | |
| Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. |