§ [SECOND READING.]
§ Order for Second Reading read.
§ SIR JOHN COLOMB (Great Yarmouth)in moving the Second Reading of this Bill said it had been before the House for several sessions, and he did not therefore think it necessary to occupy the time of the House in explaining it.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill he now read a second time."
§ MR. BANBURYsaid he was sorry his hon. and gallant friend did not explain the Bill the Bill was a franchise Bill and a Bill of very great importance, which ought not to be dismissed with two or three minutes conversation. Of course, every hon. Member sympathised very much with the men who served their country in the Royal Navy, with men in the mercantile marine and with fishermen, and, when it was proposed to give them the right to exercise the franchise, everyone was delighted. But the question arose whether, in bringing forward a measure which might be just and right as far as seamen were concerned, it might not he doing an injustice to other people. It could not he contended that seamen were the only persons who were debarred by their profession or occupation from exercising the franchise at present. His hon. and gallant friend was himself a gallant seaman, and no doubt possessed the gallantry which most seamen had, but on the present occasion he allowed his heart to run away with his judgment. The proper course for his hon. and gallant friend would be not 456 to proceed with the Second Reading of the Bill, but to endeavour to induce the Government to introduce a Bill which would have for its object to give facilities to exercise the franchise to every person who by his occupation was unable to record his vote at present, He appealed also for another class, namely, the soldier. Soldiers did their duty gallantly, and why should they be deprived of exercising the franchise? Did hon. Members object to soldiers exercising the franchise? He did not desire to detain the House, but he wished to point out that piecemeal legislation of this kind was not always right. It was very easy to introduce a Bill and to take credit for it, but what hon. Members should consider was the effect of the measure if it were passed. He should like for a moment to refer to Clause 3, which ran thus—
The voting paper shall be signed by the voter himself in the presence of a person by law authorised to administer oaths (in this Act called 'the commissioner'), but the commissioner shall have no right to inspect any part of the voting paper, except the part containing the voter's signature. As soon as the voting paper is signed it shall be folded up by the voter and placed in a sealed envelope or otherwise made secure from inspection.That seemed to him a clumsy way of proceeding. Then who was the voter to mark the paper for? Supposing a seaman was going on a voyage, and that an election was to occur in five or six weeks, how was he to know who the candidates would be, and even if he did know the candidates who were to be nominated, how was he to know for which of them to vote? Again, he did not see anything in the Bill as to how long before an election the Act would have effect. Was it to be six weeks or two months? He regretted his hon. and gallant friend made such an extremely short speech, because there were many points in the Bill which required explanation. There was nothing so far as he 457 could see in the Bill to show when a voter might begin to mark the paper. There were the names of several hon. Members on the hack of the Bill, and he hoped that they would give the explanation that was required. In passing a franchise Bill the House ought really to know what it was doing, and he hoped some explanation of the Bill would be given.
§ MR. SETON-KARRsaid he should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that it was asked to pass a great deal of ill-considered legislation that evening. The Bills which were now being discussed had been preceded by a large number of Government measures, and an ordinary Member of the House looking at the Orders of the Day would not suppose for a moment that any of the Bills the House had been discussing could come on. He confessed he was unable to understand why the Government should have dropped so much of their business, and allowed those Bills to be discussed.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)The hon. Gentleman cannot have been in the House at question time, because the First Lord of the Treasury then announced that the Government did not intend to go beyond Report of Supply.
§ MR. SETON-KARRsaid he was in the House during a part of question time, but did not hear the statement referred to. At any rate, it was very short notice to give, and the fact remained that the Bills they were now discussing had come forward very unexpectedly. The main argument in favour of the Bill before the House was that it had been introduced by his hon. and gallant friend the Member for Great Yarmouth. That fact stood, no doubt, for its respectability, but he would point out to the House that his hon. and gallant friend did not condescend to otter a single word of explanation, having moved the Second Reading in a formal and perfunctory way. The Bill was a fair enough Bill, but some of its clauses required explanation, and before the House was asked to express an opinion on it some hon. Member whose name was on the back of the Bill should explain it. He hoped the House would hear something more about the Bill. He should also like to have an explanation 458 from the Government as to why the Trout Fisheries Bill had been dropped.
§ MR. SETON KARRsaid he would obey the ruling of the Chair, and in conclusion expressed the hope that the Bill before the House would be further explained.
MR. PARKER SMITHsaid he was surprised that his hon. friend the Member for Rotherhithe, whose name was on the back of the Bill, was not in his place to explain such a long-expected and eagerly-awaited measure. He was also surprised that His Majesty's Government had not given the House their views on the measure. He considered it would be practically impossible to decide such a measure without having a clear and full explanation of the views of His Majesty's Government, dealing as it did with the franchise, of which the House of Commons had always been extremely jealous. Many points contained in the Bill had been mentioned by his hon. friends, but they had not yet been answered. Hon. Members sympathised, no doubt, with the desire of sailors to make their voice heard at the polls, but there were many other classes of His Majesty's subjects who were equally deserving as sailors in the Navy or the Mercantile Marine or fishermen, but who were not in a position to vote. How was the House going to draw a distinction between, for instance, men in the Naval Brigade in South Africa and the soldiers serving beside them? It would be a very serious danger to the discipline of His Majesty's forces if sailors could taunt soldiers with being superior because they had been able to sign voting papers long before they knew what the issues at an election would be, or perhaps the character of the candidates, or had any idea of how the successful candidate would act in Parliament. That might be a sound principle, but, at any rate, it was a principle that had not yet been acknowledged, and if the House were to accept it at all, he thought it should be carried a great deal further. He did not think it should be limited to sailors only. It would he convenient to many others. Many persons were now called upon to travel 500 miles to record their votes, 459 Why should they not be able to record their votes in a manner similar to that provided in the Bill? Supposing a voter in London had also a vote in Scotland—why should he be put to the trouble of travelling 500 miles to vote? Why should he not be allowed to put his voting paper into an envelope and send it down? He did not know whether the principle of the Bill was going to be accepted. He was quite sure it ought not to be accepted without further explanation from the supporters of the Bill, and more especially an explanation from the Government. His hon. and gallant friend the Member for Great Yarmouth introduced the Bill with great brevity, but he did not know whether it was fair to measure his hon. and gallant friend's sense of the gravity of the Bill, as compared with other questions in which he was interested, by the relative length of his speech in introducing the Bill, and the length of the speeches he delivered on other subjects. He did not think it was fair that such an important question should be brought before the House without being adequately explained.
§ MR. TOMLINSONsaid he agreed with his hon. friend who had just sat down that more light should be thrown on the Bill. The measure was one of
§ very great importance. It made a very great change in the present system of recording votes, and the House had had really no explanation of its provisions from any of its supporters. He himself was very much in favour of anything which would give the persons concerned an opportunity of recording their votes, and he thought that every effort should be made to secure that result. But was there any practical machinery in the Bill to effect that object? That was what the supporters of the Bill should have explained to the House. After the experience the blouse had had with reference to franchise Bills it had a right to demand to know the views of the Government. As there was no sign of any representative of the Government intending to address the House, he would move, "That the debate be now adjourned."
* MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the House.
§ Question put, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 150; Noes, 47. (Division List No. 120.)
461| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Acland-Hood Capt. Sir Alex. F | Craig, Robert Hunter | Henderson, Alexander |
| Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Cullinan, J. | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Holland, William Henry |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Dalziel, James Henry | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brights'de |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Horniman, F'rederick John |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Delany, William | Howard, Capt. J (Kent Faversh. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo. | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Joyce, Michael |
| Boll, Richard | Doogan, P. C. | Kimber, Henry |
| Bignold, Arthur | Duffy, William J. | Knowles, Lees |
| Bill, Charles | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lambton, Hn. Fredk. William |
| Boland, John | Ffrench, Peter | Lawson, John Grant |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Fisher, William Hayes | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants Fareham |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bull, William James | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Butcher, John George | Fuller, J. M. F. | Leveson-Gower, Fredk N. S. |
| Caldwell, James | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Levy, Maurice |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Lowe, Francis William |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Graham, Henry Robert | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Lucas, Reginad J. (Portsmouth) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Lundon, W. |
| Chapman, Edward | Gretton, John | Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Griffith, Ellis J. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Groves, Janie Grimble | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg'w | Hay, Hon. Claude George | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Penn, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Malcolm, Ian | Plummer, Walter R. | Spear, John Ward |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Pretyman, Ernest George | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Randles, John S. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Ratcliffe, R. F. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Reddy, M. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Redmond, William (Clare) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Mooney, John J. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Valentia, Viscount |
| Morgan, David J. (Waltham'w) | Richards, Henry Charles | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
| Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Rigg, Richard | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Mount, William Arthur | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney | Wason, John C. (Orkney) |
| Murphy, J. | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, Patrick (Meath, N.) |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln | Wodehouse, Hon. A. (Essex) |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Seton-Karr, Henry | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W. | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew | Young, Commander (Berks, E. |
| O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N. | Shipman, Dr. John G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| O'Malley, William | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Sir John Colomb and Mr. Price. |
| Pemberton, John S. G. | Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Purvis, Robert |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goschen, Hn. Geo. Joachim | Ridley, Hn. M. W. Stalybridge) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Ritchie, Rt. Fin. (Chas. Thomson |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy | Grenfell, William Henry | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Balfour, Rt Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Sullivan, Donal |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Bond, Edward | Jefferys, Arthur Frederick | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts) |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | More, Rbt. Jas. (Shropshire) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Cremer William Randal | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E R. (Bath) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | |
| Dunn, Sir William | O'Neill, Hon. Robert. Torrens | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Platt Higgins Frederick | Mr. Banbury and Mr. Parker Smith. |
| Fletcher, Sir Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
Bill read a second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc."—(Sir John Colomb.)
§ MR. JEFFREYSsaid he would again protest against a Bill which had conic before the House by accident, and which had not been adequately discussed, being sent to a Grand Committee. The majority of the Members of the House had had no opportunity of examining the provisions of the proposed measure, and he could only say that it was an abuse of the forms of the House to send such a Bill upstairs. The Grand Committees were principally intended for measures that had been thoroughly discussed on their Second Reading. The measure before the House was of great importance and ought to be thoroughly discussed, and he protested against the forms of the House being abused by sending a Bill under such circumstances to the Grand Committee on Law.
§ * MR. RITCHIEI hope the House will not send this Bill to a Grand Committee. It is quite true, as my hon. friend has just said, that this Bill is of very considerable importance. I do not propose to discuss any of its provisions, but I may be allowed to point out that it is a Bill which does undoubtedly belong to the category of Reform Bills, because it practically enfranchises—not so many people as some would imagine—but still a certain number of persons, while it leaves alone a very large number of persons who are equally entitled to the franchise. The Bill has not been adequately discussed on Second Reading, and I think it would be rather a blow at the principle of sending Bills to the Grand Committees, if a Bill of this great importance, after having been spoken to for an exceedingly short time, should be taken out of the hands of the House. I am quite sure the House would do wrong 463 by sending a Bill which has not been at all adequately discussed to a Grand Committee, and I hope therefore it will not consent to the motion.
§ Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Thursday, 18th April.
464§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 75; Noes, 104. (Division List No. 121.)
463| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Gretton, John | Murphy, J. |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'uth | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Higginbottom, S. W. | O'Malley, William |
| Boland, John | Horniman, Frederick John | Randles, John S. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. | Ready, M. |
| Bull, William James | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Caldwell, James | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Levy, Maurice | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lough, Thomas | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lundon, W. | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellis'n | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Cullinan, J | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Delany, William | Maconochie, A. W. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Ffrench, Peter | Majendie, James A. H. | Wodehouse, Hn. Armine (Essex |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Markham, Arthur Basil | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Gordon, Maj. E.- (T'wer H'ml'ts | Morgan, Dav. J (Walthamstow | Sir John Colomb and Mr. Price. |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Purvis, Robert |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Grenfell, William Henry | Ratcliffe, R. F. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Groves, James Grimble | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. | Guthrie Walter Murray | Rigg, Richard |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Henderson, Alexander | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bond, Edward | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Howard, Capt J (Kent, Faversh) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Butcher, John George | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Knowles, Lees | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Cavendish, V C W (Derbyshire) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawson, John Grant | Spear, John Ward |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Chapman, Edward | Lowe, Francis William | Sullivan, Donal |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Malcolm, Ian | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Manners, Lord Cecil | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. |
| Dunn, Sir William | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edwd. Algernon | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fletcher, Sir Henry | Nicholson, William Graham | |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pemberton, John S. G. | Mr. Jeffreys and Lord Alwyne Compton. |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Penn, John |
§ House adjourned at five minutes after Twelve of the clock.