HC Deb 21 March 1900 vol 80 cc1362-5

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. J. W. Lowther (Cumberland, Penrith)

in the chair.

Clause 1:—

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)

said he desired to make one or two obser- vations with regard to this Bill with the object of eliciting some explanations from the right hon. Gentleman. In October the House voted £13,000,000 for the war. It was now asked by this Bill, which was divided into two sections, to vote close on £47,000,000, making a total of £60,000,000, which, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was calculated to meet the expenses of the war to September, by which time it was supposed the war would be over. He thought the country was entitled to know, in view of the dissolution rumours, on what basis it was assumed the war would have terminated by September 1. If Lord Roberts had given that advice, he had no more to say, but in his opinion the war would last another year and a half, and would cost £150,000,000 at least. About £2,000,000 of extra taxation was being imposed on Ireland owing to the war—


I do not think the remarks of the hon. Gentleman are relevant. All this Bill does is to appropriate certain sums to the services for which they have been voted in the supplementary and ordinary Estimates.


pointed out that on the Second Reading the House was allowed to discuss a multiplicity of questions, and he always understood in a Bill of this character the Committee were entitled to discuss the entire policy of the war. There was just one other matter. In the preamble of the Bill the House was made to declare that this £47,000,000 was "cheerfully granted to Her Majesty." There certainly was no cheer in his heart in voting £2,000,000 of Irish money to kill Dutch, and he would move the omission of the word "cheerfully."


I must tell the hon. Member that no separate question is

put in regard to the preamble, as there is no preamble.


Then may I ask, if this is not the proper time, when will be the proper time to move my Amendment?


I am afraid there is no proper time. It has been ruled by my predecessor that the word to which the hon. Member objects forms part of the enacting form of words that have been used for many years, and that there is no means of amending them.

MR. FLAVIN (Kerry, N.)

thought it was the duty of the Irish Members to make one more protest. On the second reading of the Bill the House was allowed to discuss a great many items of interest not only to Great Britain but to Ireland. £13,000,000 had already been granted, and now the Committee was asked to vote a further £47,000,000. The Irish Members had protested against the war throughout, and they considered it most unfair that they should be compelled to pay any portion of the cost of a war which they considered to be unjust.


Order! Order! I must remind the hon. Member that the question is whether the amounts which the House has already agreed to shall be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.


We shall only take one division, Sir, and we will take it on the second clause.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2.

Question proposed: "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 10. (Division List No. 75.)

Allan, William (Gateshead) Brigg, John Dorington, Sir John Edward
Allsopp, Hon. George Broadhurst, Henry Duckworth, James
Anson, Sir William Reynell Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Fardell, Sir T. George
Arrol, Sir William Caldwell, James Farquharson, Dr. Robert
Asher, Alexander Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derb'shire Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.
Baird, John George Alexander Chamberlain, J Austen(Worc'r Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Balcarres, Lord Coghill, Douglas Harry Flower, Ernest
Baldwin, Alfred Colville, John Galloway, William Johnson
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Crombie, John William Garfit, William
Billson, Alfred Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n) Gedge, Sydney
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Goldsworthy, Major-General
Gordon, Hon. John Edward M'Arthur, Charles(Liverpool) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Kenna, Reginald Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Gull, Sir Cameron Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Yorks.) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Hanson, Sir Reginald Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Hare, Thomas Leigh Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Ch. Seale- Mount, William George Strachey, Edward
Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Horniman, Frederick John Murray Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Ure, Alexander
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Usborne, Thomas
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Perks, Robert William Warr, Augustus Frederick
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Webster, Sir Richard E.
Johnston, William (Belfast) Pilkington, R. (LancsNewton) Weir, James Galloway
Lafone, Alfred Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W) Welby, L.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wharton, Rt. Hon. JohnLloyd
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Purvis, Robert Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Renshaw, Charles Bine Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Leng, Sir John Rentoul, James Alexander
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swansea Richardson, J. (Durham,S. E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Fisher and Mr. Fellowes.
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T.
Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool Robinson, Brooke
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Daly, James Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land) Mr. J. P. Farrell and Mr. Flavin.
Doogan, P. C. Macaleese, Daniel
Gibney, James O'Malley, William
Harrington, Timothy Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Bill read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.

Question proposed: "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)

expressed surprise that no explanation had been given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the question of the interest which appeared in the Bill, and why the hon. Gentleman had continued to insert 5 per cent. when the War Loan only bore 2¾per cent. He proposed to omit the figure 5 and insert 4.


said he had fully considered the point which had been raised by the hon. Gentleman, and had come to the conclusion there was nothing in it. The hon. Gentleman was wrong both in his theory and his facts, for assuming that the money could be borrowed at 2¾per cent., it was as absurd to insert 4 per cent. as 5 per cent. in the Bill.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.