§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. JESSE COLLINGS (Birmingham, Bordesley) in the Chair.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed—"That it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1899, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.—
- (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the esti-
291 mate of such expenditure by a total sum of £637,516 8s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £825,980 6s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £188,463 18s. 3d. - (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £6,853 13s. 5d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £65,914 3s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £59,060 9s. 10d.
| SCHEDULE. | |||||||||||||||
| Number of Vote. | Navy Services, 1898–99. Votes. | Gross Expenditure. | Appropriations in Aid. | ||||||||||||
| Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure. | Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. | Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | ||||||||||||
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | ||||||||||||
| £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | ||||
| 1 | … | Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines | … | 52,038 | 12 | 0 | 2,039 | 1 | 1 | ||||||
| 2 | … | Victualling and Clothing for the Navy | 95,269 | 14 | 4 | … | … | 3,698 | 12 | 11 | |||||
| 3 | … | Medical Establishments and Services | … | 551 | 11 | 11 | … | 636 | 9 | 6 | |||||
| 4 | … | Martial Law | 719 | 3 | 2 | … | … | 40 | 8 | 4 | |||||
| 5 | … | Educational Services | … | 1,422 | 8 | 6 | … | 161 | 11 | 9 | |||||
| 6 | … | Scientific Services | 2,897 | 18 | 0 | … | … | 5,423 | 0 | 7 | |||||
| 7 | … | Royal Naval Reserves | … | 13,683 | 11 | 1 | … | 188 | 13 | 1 | |||||
| 8 | … | Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.: | |||||||||||||
| Sec. 1 | … | Personnel | 191,318 | 6 | 8 | … | 12 | 7 | |||||||
| Sec. 2 | … | Materiel | 192,715 | 5 | 7 | … | … | 43,268 | 14 | 0 | |||||
| Sec. 3 | … | Contract Work | … | 749,758 | 9 | 6 | 2,053 | 13 | 10 | ||||||
| 9 | … | Naval Armaments | … | 8,525 | 13 | 6 | 73 | 15 | 11 | ||||||
| 10 | … | Works Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad | 91,241 | 9 | 9 | … | … | 10,752 | 7 | 3 |
§ (c.) That the resulting differences, between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Total Surpluses | 825,325 | 12 | 7 |
| Total Deficits | 577,801 | 4 | 6 |
| Net Surplus | £247,524 | 8 | 1 |
§ That the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the not charge on Exchequer Grants, for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations in Aid, in. respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
§ 1. That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
293| Number of Vote. | Navy Services, 1898–99. Votes. | Gross Expenditure. | Appropriations in Aid. | ||||||||||||
| Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure. | Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. | Deficiencies of Actual is compared with Estimated Receipts. | Surpluses of Actual is compared with Estimated Receipts. | ||||||||||||
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | ||||||||||||
| £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | ||||
| 11 | … | Miscellaneous Effective Services | 32,862 | 19 | 2 | … | … | 1,553 | 16 | 2 | |||||
| 12 | … | Admiralty Office | 500 | 5 | 8 | … | … | 1 | 17 | 9 | |||||
| 13 | … | Half-pay, Reserved and Retired Pay | 18,169 | 4 | 5 | … | 954 | 1 | 6 | ||||||
| 14 | … | Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances | 4,491 | 9 | 11 | … | 1,246 | 8 | 6 | ||||||
| 15 | … | Civil Pensions and Gratuities | 4,633 | 1 | 5 | … | … | 188 | 11 | 11 | |||||
| 16 | … | Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters | 42 | 16 | 0 | … | 486 | 0 | 0 | ||||||
| Amount written off as irrecoverable | 2,654 | 14 | 2 | ||||||||||||
| 637,516 | 8 | 3 | 825,980 | 6 | 6 | 6,853 | 13 | 5 | 65,914 | 3 | 3 | ||||
| Net Surplus, | £l88,463 | 18 | 3 | Net Surplus, | £59,060 | 9 | 10 | ||||||||
| Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer | £247,524 | 8 | 1 |
§ That it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1899 (as corrected by the Second Report of the Committee of Public Accounts of the present session), and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—
- (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £268,594 1s. 9d., as shown in Column No. 1 of Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £100,015 14s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the not sum of £167,978 7s. 7d.
- (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £48,828 14s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the
294 receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £226,126 0s. 9d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £177,297 6s. 3d. - (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Total Surpluses | 278,806 | 12 | 5 |
| Total Deficits | 269,487 | 13 | 9 |
| Net Surplus | £9,318 | 18 | 8 |
§ That by a Vote of Parliament during the present session (House of Commons Paper, No. 90, of 1900) a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1898–9, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £168,070 2s. 6d.
295§ That the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover
| SCHEDULE. | |||||||||||||
| No. of Vote. | Army Services, 1898–99. Votes. | Gross Expenditure. | Appropriations in Aid. | ||||||||||
| Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure. | Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. | Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | ||||||||||
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | ||||||||||
| £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | ||
| 1 | Pay, etc., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments) | 29,358 | 10 | 11 | … | … | 100,529 | 17 | 8 | ||||
| 2 | Medical Establishments | 35,054 | 5 | 1 | … | 15 | 13 | 11 | |||||
| 3 | Militia: Pay, Extra Pay, Bounty, etc | … | 6,354 | 14 | 6 | 319 | 5 | 8 | |||||
| 4 | Yeomanry Cavalry: Pay and Allowances | 1,489 | 17 | 9 | … | … | 1 | 8 | 10 | ||||
| 5 | Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances | … | 1,840 | 2 | 1 | … | 743 | 18 | 2 | ||||
| 6 | Transport and Remounts | 119,933 | 3 | 0 | … | … | 9,950 | 19 | 8 | ||||
| 7 | Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | … | 45,524 | 2 | 1 | … | 22,810 | 6 | 0 | ||||
| 8 | Clothing Establishments and Services | 74,108 | 15 | 0 | … | ... | 8,251 | 0 | 11 | ||||
| 9 | Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair | … | 17,716 | 17 | 6 | … | 58,131 | 3 | 11 | ||||
| 10 | Works, Buildings, and Repairs: Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services | 1,872 | 14 | 3 | … | 48,384 | 14 | 2 | |||||
| 11 | Establishments for Military Education | … | 2,332 | 10 | 4 | … | 2,083 | 8 | 1 | ||||
| 12 | Miscellaneous Effective Services | 404 | 5 | 5 | … | … | 53 | 16 | 6 | ||||
| 13 | War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges | … | 1,815 | 12 | 7 | … | 347 | 4 | 11 | ||||
| 14 | Non-effective Charges for Officers, etc. | … | 20,619 | 8 | 5 | … | 19,327 | 0 | 0 | ||||
| 15 | Non-effective Charges for Men, etc. | … | 4,412 | 6 | 8 | … | 3,915 | 16 | 1 | ||||
| 16 | Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances | 6,132 | 0 | 7 | … | 69 | 0 | 9 | |||||
| Balances irrecoverable | 240 | 9 | 9 | ||||||||||
| 268,594 | 1 | 9 | 100,615 | 14 | 2 | 48,828 | 14 | 6 | 226,128 | 0 | 9 | ||
| Add Excess Vote | … | 100 | 0 | 0 | |||||||||
| 100,715 | 14 | 2 | |||||||||||
| Net Deficit, £167,878 | 7 | 7 | Net Surplus, £177,297 | 6 | 3 | ||||||||
| Net Surplus £9,418 18 8 |
§ the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.
§ 2. That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
297§ MR. JONATHAN SAMUELsaid this matter was very complicated, and as hon. Members had been in attendance for twelve hours, progress should be reported.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Jonathan, Samuel.)
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,) Prestonsaid the matter appeared every year, and was merely formal.
§ DR. TANNERsaid that when ho was a Member of the Public Accounts Committee, the matter was one which always required investigation. They had been assisting the Government to pass the Money-lending Bill, and the Government now brought in financial business which could wait until to-morrow. The Government were trying at that late hour to rush through a large sum of money.
§ MR. HANBURYsaid the hon. Member was under a misapprehension. The Government were asking for no money. They were simply asking the sanction of the House for what had been already done by the Treasury in transferring the surplus of one Vote to make up the deficiency of the other.
§ DR. TANNERsaid that the matter had always been a casus belli on the Public Accounts Committee. He appealed to the Government to let it stand over until to-morrow.
Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present (Mr. BRYN ROBERTS, Carnarvonshire, Eifion). House counted, and forty Members being found present,
§ MR. TULLYsaid he hoped the matter would not be persisted in. They had been supporting the Govrnment against their own supporters, and ho thought it unfair that they, who conscientiously objected to money being voted for the war, should now be asked to consider financial 298 proposals. He found that one of the items was for the Yeomanry. That word had an evil sound in Ireland.
THE CHAIRMANI beg to call the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that no money is to be voted for any service.
§ *MR. JONATHAN SAMUELsaid the Committee should have more information than had yet been given. He found in the resolution that last year there was an unexpended surplus of £325,000, and they ought to know the reason why. That sum was now being transferred to some other item. Then the excess of the gross expenditure was £637,000. These sums were very large, and he thought they should have an explanation from the Government regarding them. That was the practice in municipal life. Corporations never thought of asking for more money than what they required for the given year; and it seemed to him that that was the practice on which they ought to prepare the Estimates year after year. Large sums of money were asked for, some were unexpended, and at the: end of the year they were spent in other directions. If these large sums were not required it would be much better to use thorn in the reduction of taxation.
§ *MR. JONATHAN SAMUELsaid it was not a vote, but a resolution, and he should like to hear from the hon. Member for Mid Lanark whether he was partly responsible for taking this resolution at that time of the morning, and whether this was one of his arrangements. When they had been increasing taxation——
THE CHAIRMANreminded the hon. Gentleman that that had nothing to do with the business before the Committee.
§ *MR. JONATHAN SAMUELsaid that this resolution dealt with last year's, accounts, and he would be quite in order in discussing whether fresh taxes put in it were necessary. Ho asked for a full 299 explanation why these large amounts were unexpended in one direction and large amounts over the Estimates were expended in another direction. It showed very lax work on the part of those responsible for the Estimates. And, therefore, he begged leave, seeing that it was time the House adjourned, to move to report progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURhoped that the motion would not be pressed. The hon. Gentleman was speaking under a misapprehension. This was a purely formal resolution that had to be passed every year to comply with the statute; and it had nothing to do with the finances of the year. It would not be in order upon the resolution to discuss taxation or expenditure. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that it was a formal matter, and the reason they were pressing it on the House that evening was that it was absolutely necessary in order to comply with the requirements of the Appropriation Bill. The date of the holidays, besides, depended upon it.
§ MR. CRILLY (Mayo, N.)said that they on the Irish benches had dealt with the right hon. Gentleman very generously that night, and were perfectly willing to give way to him now. He wanted, however, to point out to the First Lord of the Treasury that he did not think it fair that a paid member of the Government should be put into the Chair to preside over their deliberations at that time of the morning. Mr. Arthur O'Connor should have taken the Chair.
§ MR. CRILLYassured Mr. Jesse Collings that he had no disposition whatever to say anything offensive. He, however, wanted to enter his strongest and most vigorous protest against the presiding officer being a paid member of the Government, when a small minority were fighting against them to the end of a night like that.
§ MR. CALDWELLthought the Government had themselves a good deal to blame for the position in which they found themselves. If it was important that this Committee stage should really have been taken that night, why did they not put the resolution down in an earlier part of the programme? It was no answer to say that it was merely formal. He was bound to say that it would have passed more readily at nine o'clock last night than at three o'clock that morning. He had no objection to the motion, but if the Government kept on the House till three in the morning and began fresh business they might expect opposition. The Government had got their Money-lending Bill, and why should they force matters? If the First Lord of the Treasury would consent to report progress he would find that the matter would go through in the ordinary course.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the Government had done their best to meet the views of the House that night, and especially the views of the Irish Members; and he must say that ho did not think they had been well treated when objection I was taken to their asking the House to take a measure which the hon. Gentleman acknowledged was a merely formal matter. He agreed to report progress upon the understanding that the resolution should be taken without discussion at the next sitting.
§ DR. TANNERsaid that other Members would be there on the morrow with whose views they were not conversant; and were they to be responsible for them in regard to this matter?
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.