HC Deb 12 July 1900 vol 85 cc1330-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order [26th June] that the Money-lending Bill [Lords] be committed to the Standing Committee on Trade, etc., be read, and discharged; and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc." — (Sir William Walrond.)

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

Being a member of the Standing Committee, I would like to know whether there is any intention on the part of the Government to pass this Bill this year? If not, why should we be kept in the Committee Room dealing with it?


It is my hope that the Bill will pass. I have already stated that I understood the opposition to the Bill had to a very large extent been modified by the removal of the schedule.


said he thought the right hon. Gentleman was wholly mistaken in his estimate of the opposition to this Bill. He could not understand this motion. On the 26th June, sixteen days previously, a member of the Government, whom he saw sitting on the Front Bench, moved that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Trade. If he remembered rightly, the first idea was that it should go before the Standing Committee on Law, but, after consultation presumably with other members of the Government, the Secretary to the Local Government Board decided to ask that it be sent to the other Committee. There was thus a deliberative consideration on the part of the Government of the claims of the two Standing Committees to either of which the Bill might be sent, and the claim of the Standing Committee on Trade was considered to be superior. Now, there had been no attempt to explain the reasons which prevailed with the Government to induce it to refer the Bill to the Standing Committee on Law. He had, therefore, set himself to discover some reason. His first impression was that the object was possibly to save the Government from having to make the distressful announcement on Monday that this was one of the Bills which would have to be sacrificed, as undoubtedly it would have to be sooner or later this session. Then another reason which suggested itself to his mind was that the Committee on Trade had got more than it could do, while the Committee on Law had not sufficient work before it. But surely, if that were the case, it must have been known to the Government on the 26th June. He did not know whether as a matter of fact the Committee on Trade had yet entered on the consideration of the Bill. Even if it were transferred to the Committee on Law, was there any probability that it would become an Act of Parliament this session? He did not think there was, and the only effect, therefore, would be the unnecessary withdrawal from the service of the House of Members belonging to the Committee. Believing the Bill to be a bad one, he did not want to see it passed, oven although the schedule was taken out of it. He therefore proposed as an Amendment that all words after "discharged" be omitted.


I do not think that is a motion which ought to be made, seeing that its object is to destroy a Bill which has passed its Second Reading in this House.


My real intention was to elicit some explanation from the Government of the action they are taking. I should like to know whether the reasons I have advanced are correct or not. Still, if the Amendment is not in order I will not move it.


The fact is the Bill was originally referred to the Standing Committee on Trade under the idea that the Companies Bill would not take so long as it has done. The Committee, however, has. only got to Clause 12 of that Bill, whereas the Law Committee is practically clear for work; and there is no reason why the latter should not take up the Money-lending Bill, and so give the Bill a chance which it would hardly have if it remained before the Committee on Trade.

MR. MACLEAN (Cardiff)

. I protest strongly against the extraordinary want of consideration shown by the Government for the Standing Committee. Why was not this motion made a week ago? The Standing Committee was actually called together to discuss a measure about Sunday Closing in Wales which the First Lord of the Treasury had previously announced to the House to be as dead as mutton. Then the Committee had another meeting, at which no work was done. I do think that more consideration should have been shown by the Government. These Committees do admirable work; in fact they do the greater part of the work of the House by knocking Bills into shape, and they are, therefore, entitled to have some consideration shown them.


I merely rise to point out a matter which seems to be escaping the attention of the House, namely, that these two Committees are not merely co-ordinate Committees, but according to the Standing Orders they are appointed and constituted to deal with distinct branches of legislation. One is called into existence to deal with Bills which relate to law, the Courts of Justice and legal proceedings, while the other has to deal with trade, shipping, manufac- tures, agriculture and fishing. Therefore, although the line of demarcation may sometimes be very narrow, the House must not get into the habit of moving Bills indifferently from one Committee to another according to the chances of success.


As a point of order, may I ask whether the effect of the Amendment of the hon. Member for King's Lynn would not really be not to destroy the Bill, but to leave the Bill in the position it occupied before the Motion to refer the Bill to the Committee on Trade was passed?


The hon. Member is quite right. I was for the moment misled by the observation of the hon. Member for King's Lynn himself when he said that to stop the further progress of the Bill he would move this. The true effect would be to leave the Bill to the Committee of the whole House. I quite agree, therefore, that, strictly speaking, it is not out of order, and that being so, I will accept the Amendment.


Then I will move it. I do not think that I need repeat what I have said in support of it.

Amendment proposed— To leave out from the word 'discharged,'

to the end of the Question."—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

*MR. JAMES LOWTHEE (Kent, Thanet)

I should be sorry to find myself compelled to go into the opposite Lobby to my hon. friend, and I therefore hope he will be satisfied with the discussion which has taken place and with the explanations that have been given, and will withdraw his Amendment. I think that this is one of the few non-mischievous Bills which this House has had an opportunity of considering, and it. would be a pity if, on the grounds he has stated, it should not have a fair chance of passing. I feel some difficulty in supporting the reference to a Standing Committee, because I think such committees are most objectionable institutions. I have always opposed them, and I originally did so in conjunction with un-political friends, who now take the opposite course. As my hon. friend appears to have very slight hope of this Bill passing under any conditions, I would suggest that he should not press, the matter to a division.

The House divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 61. (Division List No. 211.)

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Burt, Thomas Donelan, Captain A.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Caldwell, James Doogan, P.C.
Allison, Robert Andrew Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasgow) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Allsopp, Hon. George Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore
Anson, Sir William Reynell Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Drage, Geoffrey
Arrol, Sir William Causton, Richard Knight Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.) Emmott, Alfred
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fardell, Sir T. George
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r.) Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Finch, George H.
Banbury, Frederick George Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Hartley, George, C. T. Chelsea, Viscount Fisher, William Hayes
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Coddington, Sir William Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bench, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Coghill, Douglas Harry Flavin, Michael Joseph
Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Forster, Henry William
Bethell, Commander Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Biddulph Michael Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Fowler, Rt. Hon Sir Henry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Fry, Lewis
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) Galloway, William Johnson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Gedge, Sydney
Boulnois, Edmund Crilly, Daniel Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Cripps, Charles Alfred Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Brassey, Albert Crombie, John William Gilliat, John Saunders
Brigg, John Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dalrymple, Sir Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Dickinson, Robert Edmond Goldsworthy, Major-General
Bullard, Sir Harry Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Burdett-Coutts, W. Dillon, John Gorst, Rt. Hn, Sir John Eldon
Goschen, George J. (Sussex) M'Ghee, Richard Savory, Sir Joseph
Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin. W.) Seely, Charles Hilton
Gull, Sir Cameron M'Killop, James Sharpe, William Edward T.
Gunter, Colonel Malcolm, Ian Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Hamilion, Rt. Hn. Lord George Martin, Richard Biddulph Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Souttar, Robinson
Harwood, George Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Yorks.) Spencer, Ernest
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale Melville, Beresford Valentine Spicer, Albert
Hazell, Walter Middlemore, J. Throgmorton Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk)
Helder, Augustus Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somers t)
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Monk, Charles James Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Steadman, William Charles
Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart
Howard, Joseph Morrison, Walter Stock, James Henry
Jacoby, James Alfred Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford) Strachey, Edward
Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Tollemache, Henry James
Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. Myers, William Henry Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex) Newdigate, Francis Alexander Tritton, Charles Ernest
Joicey, Sir James Nicholson, William Graham Tuke, Sir John Batty
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Nicol, Donald Ninian Wanklyn, James Leslie
Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Wedderburn, Sir William
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Welby, Lt. -Col ACE (Taunton)
King, Sir Henry Seymour O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)
Kitson, Sir James O'Kelly, James Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)
Knowles, Lees Oldroyd, Mark Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Labouchere, Henry O'Malley, William Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Langley, Batty Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington) Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm)
Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn) Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Percy, Earl Wills, Sir William Henry
Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Pilkington, Rich (L'ncs Newton) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. Pilkington, Sir G A (Lancs. S. W.) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Swns'a) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudders.)
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liv'pool) Purvis, Robert Wylie, Alexander
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rankin, Sir James Wyndham, George
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Reckitt, Harold James Wyvill, Marmaduke D' Arey
Lowe, Francis William Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) Rickett, J. Compton Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Lucas-Shadwell, William Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Macaleese, Daniel Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenh'm) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Sir William Walrond and
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Mr. Anstruther.
M'Ewan, William Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Allan, William (Gateshead) Kearley, Hudson E. Stevenson Francis S
Austin M (Limerick W) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Bainbridge, Emerson Lewis, John Herbert Tanner, Charles Kearns
Barlow, John Emmott Lough, Thomas Tennant Harold John
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Maclean, James Mackenzie Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Billson Alfred M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Molloy, Bernard Charles Trevelyan Charles Philips
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) Morgan, W Pritchard (Merthyr) Wallace, Robert
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Moulton, John Fletcher Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Cawley, Frederick Norton, Capt. Cecil William Walton Joseph (Barnsley)
Courtney Rt. Hon. Leonard H. Nussey, Thomas Willans Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dalziel, James Henry Paulton, James Mellor Weir, James Galloway
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Philipps, John Wynford Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Pickersgill, Edward Hare Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Fenwick, Charles Price, Robert John Wilson, John (Govan)
Flynn, James Christopher Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Woods, Samuel
Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Hedderwick, Thos. Charles H. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Gibson Bowles and Mr. Lloyd Morgan.
Horniman, Frederick J. Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Order [26th June] that the Money-lending Bill [Lords] be committed to the Standing Committee on Trade, etc., be read, and discharged; and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc.