§ On the Report by the CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS upon these Bills (Nos. 49 and 50 in the above list):—
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)As I understand, in accordance with the usual practice, the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Committees, who is always most careful in desiring to meet the wishes of private Members at all times, has arranged for the Irish Railway Amalgamation Bills to originate in the Upper House. I presume he did not know of the strong feeling which existed in this quarter of the House, and I may say among Irish Members generally, that they should first be considered in the House of Commons. Under the old practice when a Bill has been rejected once in this House it is, if reintroduced, taken first in another place. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not think I am complaining when I say that there is in Ireland an extremely strong feeling with regard to these Amalgamation Bills, for and against. Personally, I am rather in favour, but a number of my colleagues are against them, and we all think that an opportunity should be given in the House of Commons where alone Ireland is democratically represented, to deal first with the first of these two Bills. It has already been before two Committees—one a hybrid Committee, and I would ask the Chairman of Committees whether some means cannot be devised so that this House may have the first opportunity of passing an opinion upon these Bills, which are of far more 695 importance to us than they are to the English or Scotch people. I gather from him that he has in his own mind some idea that the Bills might be considered by a Joint Committee. On that I would not like now to express an opinion, but I certainly do hope that on a matter of such vital importance to three provinces of Ireland as these amalgamation Bills he will consider favourably the views we put before him.
§ MR. SPEAKERThere is no question to which the hon. Member can address himself.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYI thought I might stop the presentation of the Report.
§ MR. SPEAKERI think I ought to say that the Standing Order 79 as it at present stands states that the division of Bills between the Lords and the Commons is to be assigned to the Chairmen of Committees of the two Houses, who are to determine which Bills shall be introduced in each House. Therefore, the House has delegated the power to determine which Bills shall be introduced in this House and in the other House to the Chairmen of Committees, and their decision upon that point is final, and the House cannot as the Standing Order stands at present determine the course to be taken. It is open to the hon. Member to move to amend the Standing Order, but until the Standing Order is dealt with his only course is by way of private appeal to the Chairmen of Committees to deal with Bills in a particular way.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYPerhaps I would be in order in asking the Chairman if he will reconsider the matter before we put down a motion to amend the Standing Orders?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. J. W. LOWTHER,) Cumberland, PenrithI am afraid that any reconsideration of the matter would not lead to any alteration of the decision to which the Lords' Chairman and myself have come. We have carefully considered the question, and we consider that the Amalgamation Bills should originate this session in the House of Lords. Last session the Bills were referred to a hybrid Committee, which, I may point out without casting any reflection on that body, carried on its business in a way which 696 gave results far from satisfactory to all the parties concerned. The matter was so long delayed that we had to discuss it quite at the end of the session, which I think was not generally satisfactory. It is thought that in this session it would be better that the Bills should originate in the other House. But with a view to, if possible, saving expense to all parties, the Lords Chairman and myself think it may be well to follow a precedent—an old one perhaps—set in the year 1873, when two English railway amalgamation Bills were referred to a Joint Committee. If that finds favour with hon. Gentlemen opposite, we should possibly be able to devise some means by which this Bill, although originating in the other House, would be referred to a Joint Committee of the two Houses, which would result in a strong Committee considering this very important question, and would also have the effect that great expense would be saved, both to the promoters and the opponents of the Bill. It is true that at the last moment there was put into my hands a resolution, unanimously passed by the Nationalist Members of this House. But I am afraid it would be impossible for the Lords Chairman and myself to give effect to the resolution in its entirety. According to Standing Orders, the discretion is vested in us as to how Bills are to originate, and I do not think, unless the House chooses to amend the Standing Order, that we should set aside that discretion which is vested in us.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)I just wish to make one observation as to the proposal to refer this Bill to a Committee of the two Houses. I think it may be a very valuable suggestion. I wish to point out that the supporters and the opponents are at one in wishing the Bill to originate in this House, and I therefore hope the hon. Gentleman will let the matter stand until we can submit a communication to him.