HC Deb 11 May 1899 vol 71 cc301-17

Order for third reading read.

Motion made and Question proposed— That the Bill be now read the third time.

MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green)

This Bill proposes to enable this company to raise two and a half millions of additional capital. I ask the House to postpone the Third Reading of the Bill upon considerations which the Committee itself was not competent to enquire into, and, as a matter of fact, did not enquire into. I have always thought that by far the best plan would be for this Bill to be referred to the Committee now sitting on the question of the metropolitan gas companies. You, Sir, decided on a previous occasion that it would not be competent for me to proceed with a motion to that effect, and, of course, I bow to your decision. The House is now asked to part with its control over this Bill at a time when a Committee is sitting which is enquiring into the management and the powers of all the gas companies in London. It is perfectly true that the terms of reference to the Committee included more than this particular company; the Committee no doubt is appointed to enquire into the rates charged and the methods of management of all the metropolitan gas companies. I contend that we ought not to let these large powers pass out of our hands to this company until the Committee of the House which is now sitting has reported. It is the immemorial practice of Parliament that when a company comes to this House and asks for new powers it is regarded as a proper time to enquire info the way in which the company has heretofore discharged the duties which the House has imposed upon it. Therefore I submit that the present is certainly an occasion when, before we part with this Bill, we ought to have the decision of the Committee before us. Last year this company had a Bill in Parliament the object of which was to settle up the capital, and an endeavour was then made to raise the question I desire to go into now. It was, however, then said by the counsel for the company that a question of that kind could not he entertained at that time. He said expressly that the time for these enquiries would come when this company applied to Parliament for new capital. The company has applied to Parliament for new capital and, therefore, the time has come, and what we say in regard to this com- pany is, that the company has itself broken the statutory bargains by which it is bound. There are some who seem to think that standard prices are sacred things which Parliament should not, having once granted, touch for all time; but in the case of these gas companies, at all events, the standard prices are regulated by the standard dividend of 10 per cent., and those powers were allowed on the express understanding that the affairs of the company were properly conducted. In proof of that I may cite the opinion of one of the strongest Committees which has ever been appointed by this House. It was the Committee which was presided over by Mr. Cardwell, in 1866, and that Committee said the companies were only entitled to a 10 per cent. dividend after exercising due care in management. Our complaint is that the Gas Light and Coke Company have broken the terms of the statutory bargain, and that they have not conducted the affairs of the company with due care. The popular feeling against this company is considerably enhanced by a comparison between the prices which are charged by them and the prices which are charged by the South Metropolitan Gas Company. The South Metropolitan Gas Company charge only 2s. 2d. per 1,000 feet for gas, while the Gas Light and Coke Company charge 3s., and that contrast is heightened and reduced almost to an absurdity by the fact that, whereas the Gas Light and Coke Company are charging 3s. for its gas on the north side of the Thames, they charge only 2s. 2d. on the south side of the river. Why is that? The reason is that twenty years ago the Gas Light and Coke Company, after opposition, consented to an arrangement by which it was bound never to charge more than the South Metropolitan charge on the south side of the Thames for gas. The consequence is that consumers on the north side are paying more to the gas companies than the consumers on the south side pay to their gas companies. What I want to point out is that not only is there this difference in price between the two companies, but that the difference has been a gradually growing one for the last ten years. It is not necessary that I should give the difference for all the years, but in 1889 the difference was 3d., and from that time it has regularly grown. Anyone who has thoroughly studied the charges made by these two companies can only come to the conclusion that the prices charged by the Gas Light and Coke Company ought to be less than those charged by the South Metropolitan Company. The reasons put forward by the Gas Light and Coke Company why they should charge more than the South Metropolitan Company seem to me to be very inadequate. What are some of those reasons? One of them is that the adjustments of their stations are more necessary to their works than is the case with the South Metropolitan Gas Company. I say that this Bill is not of immediate urgency, and that it regards rather the purposes which lie in the future than the purposes which lie in the immediate present, and one of these objects, for which a considerable portion of the capital is required, is to buy land not to be used for the purpose of making gas, but land just lying around their gasworks. I submit the estimates upon which this capital is based are excessive. The estimates are based upon an average—that is, their estimate of future expenditure—of twenty years. That is a very unusual and almost unprecedented proposal. What I propose to do is to move the adjournment of this. Bill until the Committee now sitting has reported. It will not be the necessary result of my motion if it is accepted that the gas company should lose their Bill even in the present session, because if the report of the Committee now sitting should be favourable to the Gas Light and Coke Company there will be no kind of opposition to this Bill, and I presume that the opposition which has been raised to this measure in this House will not be renewed in another place. There is no reason in the world why this Bill should not go through, even during the present session. But I will assume that the consequence of passing this Amendment, which I now submit to the House, will be the loss of the Bill for the present session. The result would not be a very great loss to the promoters. I have had it suggested that their estimates are very incomplete, but even according to the case of the promoters they have still sufficient capital for the present year, they having a surplus of £60,000. This House is always very much guided by precedent, and I think the precedent of 1875 in regard to the gas companies is a strong one in favour of the action I am now asking the House to take. In 1875 several of the metropolitan gas companies had Bills be- fore this House, which asked for an increase of their capital powers, but the House refused to proceed with those Bills, and the Committee known as Mr. Forster's Committee was appointed, and the Bills were postponed, and they did not pass into law during the year 1875, but in the following year they were passed, after the report of Mr. Forster's Committee had been received by the House. That is exactly the course which I ask the House to follow now. I would like to give the House another precedent. It may be remembered that in 1848 the Vauxhall Water Company promoted a Bill which fixed very high rates and charges, and the opportunity was seized to reduce the rates of a number of the south metropolitan water companies which had Bills before this House, and from that reduction the Vauxhall Company managed to escape. Under the circumstances I ask the House to keep control over this Bill until the decision of the Committee of Parliament has been made known to the House. Let the House remember that if we lose this opportunity it will not recur for ten years, and perhaps not for twenty years, and during that period the incriminated company will be entirely independent of the control of Parliament. I cannot understand the House appointing a Committee to enquire into the management and affairs of the company if before that Committee reports the House is willing to put the company into a position to enable it for ten years at least to snap its fingers at Parliament. That seems to me a most absurd position for the House to assume, and one which is distinctly not to the public interest. I beg to move that the Debate be adjourned.

Motion made and Question proposed— That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Pickersgill.)

MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, North)

said he would second the motion of his honourable friend. If the House wished that the Committee which had been appointed should be a reality instead of a sham, it would wait for its Report before passing the Bill. The Committee was meeting primarily without a doubt to enquire into the conduct of the particular company concerned, and he might say that the evidence already given before that Committee went conclusively to prove that of all the metropolitan gas companies the Gas Light and Coke Company was the worst managed and the company that charged most for its gas. That was therefore a sufficient reason why the hands of the Committee should not be tied as they would be tied if this Bill were passed. There was no urgency in the matter. If the company wanted money they had borrowing powers under which they could get it. If the Committee reported that the price of gas should be reduced, that recommendation could only be given effect to by the Government of the day, as a private Member's Bill for the purpose would not be of any use at all. The only other way would be by a Bill promoted by the company itself. Therefore, if the House was determined to put down the largest gas monopoly in the world, it should without a doubt consent to the motion of his honourable friend.


said he was Chairman of the Committee on the Bill, and all the arguments of the honourable Member for Bethnal Green were fully gone into by the Committee, and the Committee passed the Bill. The Bill was merely to give the Gas Light and Coke Company power to raise increased capital, which was absolutely necessary for the conduct of its business, and the Committee reduced the amount asked for from three and a half millions to two and a half millions. The learned counsel who opposed the Bill did not produce a single witness against it, and the whole of the evidence was in favour of the Bill. The Committee were therefore of opinion that it was a fair and proper Bill to pass, but they reduced the capital to such an extent as they thought would compel the company to come before the House of Commons again in reasonable time. The money was to be raised at a very cheap rate of interest, which would enable the company to reduce the price of its gas. As Chairman of the Committee he could only say that he had never passed a Bill in which he concurred more heartily, and he should therefore vote against the motion.

SIR JAMES RANKIN (Herefordshire, Leominster)

said, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Metropolitan Gas Companies, he might say that the Committee had considered the question——


This is a Committee which has not reported, and the honourable Member would be out of order in referring to its views. I do not mean to say that the honourable Member may not be in order in some of the observations he proposes to make, but he will not be in order in referring to the deliberations of that Committee.

MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton)

, as a member of the Committee which sat on the Bill, supported the Motion for Adjournment. In reply to the statement of the honourable Member for Blackburn, who was Chairman of the Committee, that there was no evidence before the Committee except evidence for the promoters, he thought it only fair to state that the Bill was opposed by the City Corporation and the County Council, but those bodies preferred to produce their evidence before the Select Committee which was appointed to inquire into the affairs of all the gas companies. Personally he voted against allowing the company to have such a large amount of capital, because he felt that as the House of Commons had appointed a Select Committee, it was only light that that Committee should deliberate and report before the Gas Light and Coke Company obtained powers to increase their capital. He thought that a great responsibility rested on the House in giving such a huge monopoly, which paid a maximum dividend—up to 12½ per cent.—increased powers. The only reason brought before the Committee to explain why the company charged such a high price for its gas was that they had to pay extra for coal. He found, however, that on an average they only paid a shilling a ton more than some other corporations who only charged 2s. per thousand cubic feet for gas. If the company maintained its present rate of expenditure, the increased capital it would get would enable it to go on for a period of fourteen years before coming to Parliament again. He thought a very strong case had been made out why the debate should be adjourned until the Select Committee had reported.

MR. DUNCOMBE (Cumberland, Egremont)

said the honourable and learned Member for Bethnal Green had made a speech which showed that he had a perfect grasp of the subject, but he brought nothing new before the House. He strongly advised the House against the Adjournment, on the ground that it was an inconvenient, expensive, and gradually-growing practice to adjourn decisions on private business put on the Paper by order of the House itself, and one which ought to be stopped.

MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

said he hoped the President of the Board of Trade would give some consideration to the motion. It was not hostile to the Bill, and it was really the very smallest Amendment that could be moved if the House were to retain any sense of the dignity of its own proceedings. The honourable Gentleman the Chairman of the Committee made the only defence they had heard, but what did it amount to? He said that no evidence had been brought forward against the point that this company required further capital. He would only ask, Why did the House of Commons appoint another committee to consider the affairs of this company really, although other companies were included, and about which some of the most flagrant facts had been brought forward? It charged 33 per cent. more for its gas than its rivals, and the only reason for that was that it managed its capital worse. It was now proposed to give that company more capital, and release it for fourteen years. What his honourable and learned friend asked was simply to wait until the Committee now sitting had pronounced judgment. If the Bill were now passed that Committee might as well shut its doors at once, for in that event what could the Committee do for the gas consumers? If the Bill were not passed, and if the Committee made recommendations, conditions might be added to the Bill which would be of great advantage to the gas consumers in the Metropolis.

* SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND (Middlesex, Uxbridge)

said, as one of the Members of the Committee now sitting, he did not wish to give a silent vote on the motion. He was not prejudging the merits of the case, but it seemed to him a perfect farce that a Committee should be discussing this question, and that their recommendation, when made, should be simply waste-paper. The debate ought certainly to be adjourned. He did not wish the Bill to be thrown out, but some report ought to be made by the Committee now sitting before such large powers were given to the Company.

MR. BANBURY (Camberwell, Peckham)

said he was in favour of the Bill passing, because if it were postponed it would absolutely impossible for the Committee to report in time for the Bill to go through both Houses of Parliament. If the Bill were passed now, and if the Committee subsequently made representations, there would still be time to impose conditions in another place.

MR. MOON (St. Pancras, N.)

said it appeared to him that the House would stultify itself by giving the Bill a third reading now. His constituents felt very strongly on the subject of the Bill, and if it were passed the Company need not come to Parliament again for ten or fourteen years.

MR. KIMBER (Wandsworth)

said he thought it was worth while to consider what the Bill was for. It was to raise further capital which would enable the Company to supply the consumer with an article which it was bound by law to supply. If the Bill prejudged the decisions of the Committee now sitting, he could conceive grounds for argument against the third reading now, but the Bill did not contain any power enabling the company to increase the price of gas to the consumer. On the contrary, it gave power to reduce it. If the Bill were rejected it would give the opponents of the gas company, at whose instance the present Committee was appointed, an opportunity of saying that the company had not kept pace with the demands upon it. He hoped the House would not lend its assistance to political gerrymandering of that kind, for the purpose of putting an obstruction in the way of the company, which was certainly within the rights conferred upon it by Parliament itself. Suppose that the Committee reported that the company charged more for its gas than it ought, in what way would the postponement of the Bill assist Parliament? Parliament could not insist on inserting stipulations with reference to the charge for gas in the Bill. He thought it would be inflicting a great injury on the company to postpone the Bill.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)

said he thoroughly agreed with the remarks of the honourable Member for Uxbridge. He was not con- cerned with the merits of the case at all. He had nothing to say for or against the company, but surely having appointed, a Select Committee to consider the question of gas companies' charges, it would be stultifying the action of the House to pass the Bill now. The honourable Member for Peckham said the Committee could not report for some time, and that there would not be time for the Bill to pass after the Committee had reported. He understood the Committee were likely to report before the end of the session, and he did not think any Member would oppose the third reading after that report had been received, and there would be no difficulty in getting the Bill through Parliament, if after the report it was found to be a proper Bill. Even if the Bill were thrown out no harm would be done, because the company had money to go on with. It would not be right for the House to prejudice the report of the Committee they had appointed in regard to the matter. He was surprised that the honourable Member for East Islington, who had moved for the appointment of the Committee, had not opposed the Bill going through. Quite apart from the merits, but simply for the dignity of the House, he would oppose the third reading.

* MR. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith)

said he thought the House would be taking rather an unusual course if they postponed the consideration of the Bill. The Bill came before the House in the ordinary course; the promoters of the Bill had satisfied the Committee that they were entitled to receive all they asked for, and it was granted to them by the Committee. The only objection taken to the passing of the Bill on the present occasion was that possibly at some time or other—it was not even known whether during this session or next—another Committee might make some report the gist of which was not known at the present moment, which might or might not have some influence on this Bill. Surely that was too remote a contingency to take into consideration. Even if the Committee were to make a general report it would be applicable not only to one particular company but to other gas companies also, and therefore no advantage would be gained by penalising the Gas Light and Coke Company and leaving the others free. Under those circumstances he suggested to the House that the adjournment should not take place. It was understood on the last occasion that a decision would be come to on the present occasion, and he hoped the House would not now postpone that decision.

MR. COHEN (Islington, E.)

said he took rather a different view of the matter from other honourable Members, especially in view of the fact that he moved for the appointment of the Committee now sitting. If he were to vote against the postponement of the Third Reading it might seem as if he were prejudging the matter, and it might also appear that he had arrived at the conclusion that the Gas Light and Coke Company had been found guilty of inefficient and improper management. Legislation need not necessarily follow the recommendations of the Committee now sitting, but it seemed to him that it might be a very good reason for curtailing the powers of capital sought by the Bill, and it might be possible, during the present session, before the Bill became law, to bring about such a reduction. So far as he was concerned, as a member of the Committee, he would take no part in the Division.

MR. AIRD (Paddington)

expressed the hope that the House would see its way to pass the Third Reading. It would be a very serious thing if the Bill were thrown out. The money was required for necessary expenditure, and in justice both to the company and to the consumers it was necessary the Bill should pass.

MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)

said that there was a very strong feeling all over North London on the subject of gas charges. In view of the appointment of the Committee the matter was so important that one honourable Member said he could not even vote on it, another honourable Member said that it was not right that the House should decide now, and another honourable Member took a different view. With such diversity of opinion it would be more seemly to adjourn the Third Reading until they had the report of the Committee.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 121; Noes, 166.—(Division List No. 133.)

Allan, William (Gateshead) Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Kenna, Reginald
Allen, Wm. (Newc. underLyme Duckworth, James M'Leod, John
Allison, Robert Andrew Dunn, Sir William Marks, Henry Hananel
Ambrose, Robert Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Evershed, Sydney Moore, Arthnr (Londonderry)
Atherley-Jones, L. Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Flannery, Sir Fortescue Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert Jn. O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Barlow, John Emmott Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Bartley, George C. T. Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) O'Kelly, James
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gull, Sir Cameron Oldroyd, Mark
Billson, Alfred Hanson, Sir Reginald Paulton, James Mellor
Blake, Edward Harwood, George Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Bolitho, Thomas Bedford Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Perks, Robert William
Broadhurst, Henry Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Pirie, Duncan V.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Power, Patrick Joseph
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hogan, James Francis Price, Robert John
Burns, John Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R. Priestly, Briggs (Yorks.)
Burt, Thomas Horniman, Frederick John Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Caldwell, James Jacoby, James Alfred Reid, Sir Robert Threshie
Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.)
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Kay-Shuttleworth, RtHn.SirU Rickett, J. Compton
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Kearley, Hudson E. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Laurie, Lieut.-General Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Daly, James Leng, Sir John Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Davitt, Michael Leuty, Thomas Richmond Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lloyd-George, David Sinclair, Capt. Jn. (Forfarshire
Dillon, John Lough, Thomas Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Lyell, Sir Leonard Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Donelan, Captain A. Macaleese, Daniel Souttar, Robinson
Doogan, P. C. M`Ghee, Richard Strachey, Edward
Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Wedderburn, Sir William Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Weir, James Galloway Wilson, John (Govan)
Tennant, Harold John Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Woodhouse,SirJ. T. (Hddersf'd
Trevelyan, Charles Phillips Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Woods, Samuel
Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Pickersgill and Mr. Moon.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Galloway, William Johnson Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Aird, John Garfit, William Mount, William George
Allsopp, Hon. George Gedge, Sydney Muntz, Philip A.
Anstruther, H. T. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute
Arnold, Alfred Gilliat, John Saunders Newark, Viscount
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gold, Charles Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Arrol, Sir William Goldsworthy, Major-General Nussey, Thomas Willans
Ascroft, Robert Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Palmer,SirCharlesM.(Durham
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Goschen,RtHnG. J. (StGeorge's Parkes, Ebenezer
Bagot, Capt.Josceline FitzRoy Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Pease,Herb'rt Pike(Darlington
Balcarres, Lord Gretton, John Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)
Baldwin, Alfred Gunter, Colonel Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt HnGeraldW.(Leeds Halsey, Thomas Frederick Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Pilkington, Richard
Barry, RtHnAHSmith-(Hunts Haslett, Sir James Horner Pollock, Harry Frederick
Beach, Rt Hn Sir M. H. (Bristol Heaton, John Henniker Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Beckett, Ernest William Henderson, Alexander Pretyman, Ernest George
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd) Priestley,Sir W. Overend(Edin
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Pym, C. Guy
Bill, Charles Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Blakiston-Houston, John Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chs. Thomson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) Round, James
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Jebb, Richard Calverhouse Rutherford, John
Campbell, Rt Hn, J. A. (Glasgow Johnston, William (Belfast) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes. Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Seely, Charles Hilton
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Kimber, Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Knowles, Lees Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Chamberlain, J. Austen(Wore'r Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Stevenson, Francis S.
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Leighton, Stanley Strutt, Hon, Charles Hedley
Chelsea, Viscount Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea Usborne, Thomas
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Vincent, Col.Sir C. E. Howard
Colville, John Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Walrond, Rt. Hn. SirWilliamH.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Crombie, John William Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Liverpool Warr, Augustus Frederick
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Cruddas, William Donaldson Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight
Curzon, Viscount Lowther, RtHnJW(Cumb'land Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Loyd, Archie Kirkman Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Dalkeith, Earl of Macartney, W. G. Ellison Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield MacIver, David (Liverpool) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.
Doughty, George Maclure, Sir John William Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb'rgh. W Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Doxford, William Theodore M'Killop, James Woodall, William
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Yorks. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Evans, SirFrancis H. (South'ton Middlemore, Jhn. Throgmorton Wyndham, George
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Milbank, SirPowlettChasJohn Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Milton, Viscount Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Fergusson, Rt HnSirJ. (Manc'r. Milward, Colonel Victor
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Monk, Charles James TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Fletcher, Sir Henry Moore, William (Antrim, N.) William Coddington and Mr. Banbury.
Fry, Lewis Morrell, George Herbert

said he believed several Members had taken part in the Division without thoroughly understanding the question raised, and he was so much impressed by the gravity of the position that he would take a Division against the Third Reading.

Original Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 185; Noes, 114. (Division List 134.)

Aird, John Garfit, William Muntz, Philip A.
Allsop, Hon. George Gedge, Sydney Murray,RtHnA. Graham(Bute
Anstruther, H. T. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Myers, William Henry
Arnold, Alfred Gilliat, John Saunders Newark, Viscount
Arnold-Foster, Hugh O. Gold, Charles Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Arrol, Sir William Goldsworthy, Major-General Palmer, SirCharlesM. (Durham
Ascroft, Robert Gordon, Hon. John Edward Palmer, George Wm. (Reading
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Parkes, Ebenezer
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy GoschenRtHnG. J. (StGeorge's Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)
Baillie, Jas. E. B. (Inverness) Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pease, Herbt. Pike(Darlington
Balcarres, Lord Gretton, John Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham
Baldwin, Alfred Gull, Sir Cameron Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Balfour Rt. Hn. Grld. W. (Leeds Gunter, Colonel Pilkington, Richard
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Halsey, Thomas Frederick Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hnts Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Pretyman, Ernest George
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Haslett, Sir James Horner Priestley, Sir W. Overend(Edin.
Beach, Rt. Hn. SirM. H. (Bristol Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Pym, C. Guy
Beckett, Ernest William Henderson, Alexander Rankin, Sir James
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Biddulph, Michael Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Bill, Charles Howard, Joseph Round, James
Blakiston-Houston, John Hozier, Hn. James HenryCecil Rutherford, John
Boscawen, Arthur, Griffith- Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Seely, Charles Hilton
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Sharpe, William Edward T.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Sidebottom, T. Harrop(Stalyb.
Burt, Thomas Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw. Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glsg'w Johnston, William (Belfast) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Spencer, Ernest
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Kimber, Henry Stevenson, Francis S.
Chamberlain,Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Knowles, Lees Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Chamberlain, J. Austen(Wrer. Lea, Sir Thomas, Londonderry Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Thornburn, Walter
Chelsea, Viscount Leighton, Stanley Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Ushorne, Thomas
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swnse. Vincent,Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Colville, John Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Cooke,C. W. Radcliffe(Heref'd Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Liverpool Warr, Augustus Frederick
Cox, Irwin Edward B. (Harrow) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Crombie, John William Lowther, Rt. Hn. James(Kent) Webster, SirR. E. (Isle of Wight
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Cruddas, William Donaldson Macartney, W. G. Ellison Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Curzon, Viscount Macdona, John Cumming Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh MacIver, David (Liverpool) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Dalkeith, Earl of Maclure, Sir John William Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'gh, W. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- M'Killop, James Wilson, J. W. (Worcstrsh. N.)
Doughty, George Malcolm, Ian Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Doxford, William Theodore Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W.(Yorks.) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Middlemore, Jhn Throgmorton Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Milbank, Sir PowlettChas. Jhn. Woodall, William
Evans, Sir FrancisH. (South'ton Milner, Sir Frederick George Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B.Stuart-
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Milton, Viscount Wyndham, George
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mner. Monk, Charles James Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Fletcher, Sir Henry Morrell, George Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES,
Fry, Lewis Morton, ArthurH. A. (Deptford Sir William Coddington and Mr. Banbury.
Galloway, William Johnson Mount, William George
Allan, William (Gateshead) Barlow, John Emmott Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Allen, Wm.(Newc, underLyme Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Burns, John
Allison, Robert Andrew Billson, Alfred Buxton, Sydney Charles
Ambrose, Robert Blake, Edward Caldwell, James
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Bolitho, Thomas Bedford Cameron, Sir Charles(Galsgow
Atherley-Jones, L. Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex Cameron, Robert (Durham)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Broadhurst, Henry Cawley, Frederick
Clough, Walter Owen Lambert, George Rickett, J. Compton
Coghill, Douglas Harry Laurie, Lieut.-General Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid(Cumb'land Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Daly, James Leng, Sir John Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Davitt, Michael Leuty, Thomas Richmond Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Dillon, John Lyell, Sir Leonard Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frd. Dixon Macaleese, Daniel Sinclair, Capt. John(Forfrshre.
Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Leod, John Souttar, Robinson
Duckworth, James Marks, Henry Hananel Strachey, Edward
Dunn, Sir William Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Moore, Arthur (Londonderry) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Evershed, Sydney Morgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tennant, Harold John
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith Moulton, John Fletcher Thomas, David Alfd. (Merthyr
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Norton, Capt. Cecil William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. John Nussey, Thomas Willans Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wedderburn, Sir William
Gurdon,Sir William Brampton O'Kelly, James Weir, James Galloway
Hanson, Sir Reginald Oldroyd, Mark Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Harwood, George Paulton, James Mellor Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayne,Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Perks, Robert William Williams, John Carvell(Notts.
Heaton, John Henniker Pickersgill, Edward Hare Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)
Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H. Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R. Price, Robert John Wilson, John (Govan)
Horniman, Frederick John Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) Woodhouse, SirJ. T. (Hudd'rsfd
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Woods, Samuel
Jacoby, James Alfred Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Reid, Sir Robert Threshie TELLERS FOR THE NOES,
Kearley, Hudson E. Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.) Mr. Lough and Mr. Pirie.