TELEGRAPHS (TELEPNONIC COMMUNICATION,ETC.) BILL. (Hansard, 21 June 1899)

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, East
I was an interested auditor of the Debate last night, and it may be convenient if I explain to the House the impression left upon my mind by that discussion. I gathered that in many parts of the House there was a strong, and indeed a very clearly expressed, objection to much of the Government's proposal, and I quite recognise that in a Bill of this character 223 we should be sacrificing more time than we have really at our disposal——

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS
No!

§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR
If we were to attempt to force against such opposition the measure which my right honourable friend has introduced and so ably defended. I do not, however, think that this need he necessarily fatal to the further progress of the measure. I do not believe, as far as I am able to understand it, that there is any impossibility of smoothing away the difficulties which at first sight might seem almost fatal to the further progress of the measure. I would suggest that the best course the House can pursue is to accept the Second Reading of the Bill. If we are prepared to take that course, my right honourable friend would at once move that it be referred to the Grand Committee, for, I take it, unless it Can go through that Committee there is very little chance of our being able to find time to pass it through the remaining stages in the whole House. I shall not press that motion for the Grand Committee this afternoon; I shall adjourn it, and I hope and believe it may be found possible to smooth away some of the difficulties which I have referred to. In that case, we shall proceed in Grand Committee and go through the rest of the stages in the House without, I hope, taxing the patience of the House or unduly drawing upon the time still at our disposal for bringing the work of the session to a conclusion. If that course meets with the approbation of the House, as I hope it will, I trust that without further discussion they will consent to the Second Reading. I will then make the motion, and we shall see whether we can carry out the remainder of the programme I have ventured to sketch to the House. It is better to make the motion that this Bill be referred to the Grand Committee now, because, while it is possible to with, draw upon that, it is not possible to alter our course subsequently, if, after the Second Reading, we say the Committee shall stand on such and such a day. That finally commits the House to discussing the Bill in Committee of the Whole House, and it is not possible, if we take that course, to subsequently modify it. In my judgment, to discuss this Bill in Committee of the Whole House is to give up all hope of passing it in the course of 224 the present session. I hope, therefore, the House will adopt the course I now press upon them. If they do, we may have good hope that before the end of the session this Bill may become law.

§ MR. STUART (Shoreditch, Holton)
I have listened with consternation to the statement of the right honourable Gentleman the Leader of the House. It means nothing more nor less than the killing of this Bill. I speak with some interest in the matter, because I have sat through one of the important Committees that have dealt most exhaustively with the whole of this question. There have been two Committees which have done so, and now it is to Le referred to a Grand Committee after all.

§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR
May I interrupt the honourable Gentleman? Referring the Bill to the Grand Committee is the only way by which we can hope to pass the measure—it will shorten the proceedings rather than lengthen them.

§ MR. STUART
It is exactly that that I do not think will be the case, and I am sorry that I differ in this matter from so experienced a Parliamentarian as the right honourable Gentleman. I should have liked to see this motion made by the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury, who has so ably conducted this Bill hitherto. I hope we shall hear some protest from our front bench upon this matter. The "lobbying" which has been going on day after day and week after week is such as I think the House ought to repudiate. The hest way to repudiate it is to go on with the Committee stage of this Bill in the whole House at once, and with the greatest expedition we can. We had better bring out in this House the opposition to this Bill than have all the "lobbying" which has taken place in this House repeated in the Grand Committee. I am speaking for Members on each side of the House, and I speak with strong feeling, having with other Members of the House given great attention to the matter. I end as I began, by saying that I heard the statement of the right honourable Gentleman with consternation, and I hope the course suggested will not be adopted.

§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY To THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,) Pres- 225 ton
May I, with the leave of the House, say that it is impossible to give all the reasons for the course we have adopted to-day, but I think the House generally knows the great interest I take in this Bill, and I do firmly believe that the motion which has been made by the Leader of the House is the very best way of endeavouring to pass this Bill this session.

§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanark, Mid.)
On a point of order, with reference to what the First Lord of the Treasury has stated. He stated that if this Bill were committed to the House in the usual way it would not be competent thereafter to commit it to the Standing Committee on Law.

§ * MR. SPEAKER
If the Bill were to stand on the Order Book for Committee simply, it would be competent to move to discharge the Order and to send the Bill to a Standing Committee.

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)
The House has been taken by surprise by the announcement made by the right honourable Gentleman. But I quite appreciate the difficulties that have arisen in the way of this Bill, owing to the various interests involved and the strong opinions which prevailed in regard to it. But, wishing well to the Bill, I accept the declaration of the Leader of the House that it is the full intention of the Government to proceed with the Bill, and that they have adopted this novel course to make the success of the Bill more certain. I hope that the opinion expressed by my honourable friend behind me will not be realised, and that this is not to clear the boards for another Bill which has been announced, and which may occupy a good deal of time. We should strongly oppose the reference of this Bill to a Grand Committee if it were likely to be prejudicial to the interests of the Bill. But I accept the assurance of the Leader of the House that that is not the case.

§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR
As a personal explanation, I might say the great desire of the Government is to pass the Bill. It is quite obvious that we shall not do so unless we get the Second Reading to-day. We are not springing any new procedure OR the house. It is the ordinary practice that a Bill of this kind should be referred to a Grand Committee.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
The Leader of the House is under a misapprehension as to the opposition to this Bill. The proceedings which took place a few nights ago amounted to a public scandal. We had speeches of an hour in length from the Ministerial side of the House, and, among others, from the right honourable Gentleman the Member for the London University, who is trustee for the debenture holders of the National Telephone Company, and in this sense he is connected with the company.

§ * SIR JOHN LUBBOCK (London University)
I am not trustee for the company, but for the debenture holders, and I have not myself any interest either as a shareholder or debenture holder in the company.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
Two Members from Liverpool got up and spoke at great length, but Liverpool has a good service, and has been, in the general acceptation of the word, squared by the company. All these have been obstructive speeches, and the only wonder to me is that the Leader of the House did not move the closure. Why does he allow himself to be dominated by the company? We on this side are all in favour of the Bill. All these speeches were obstructive, and we know perfectly well that if this Bill goes to a Grand Committee it will not come out without Amendments, and the same tactics will be adopted on the Report stage. In order to make the Government really responsible for this Bill, let us not give them the Second Reading to-day unless the Bill be put down to be referred to an ordinary Committee of this House.

§ MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)
As a London Member I may say we shall be very disappointed if some Bill is not passed. I do not wish to do anything wrong or unfair to the company, although I think there has been a great deal too much "lobbying" on their part, which I greatly regret; but at the same time there are the people who live in London to be considered, and the facilities which should be given to them. I do not think we shall gain anything by its being sent to a Grand Committee. If the right honourable Gentleman gets the Second Reading and then puts it down as a first Order it will go through very fast, and we shall get the 227 Bill this session. If that is not done we, shall not.