NEW CLAUSE. (Hansard, 24 May 1898)

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL
said that the general impression created n the minds of all the existing 651 officers affected, was that the clause was intended to accomplish that whoever was under the law at present qualified for superannuation he should hereafter, when handed over to these new bodies, be entitled to get the superannuation when the time arrived. Now, the clause had absolutely no such effect, and in its operation would be limited to the case of some half a dozen officers throughout Ireland. He understood from the right honourable Gentleman's explanation that the intended effect of the clause was to provide in the case of all existing officers who, on the appointed day, had reached the limit of age, or had become physically incapacitated from, further work, that if they remained on they ought to be entitled to a superannuation allowance. The result of that would be that a man who, on the day after the appointed day, reached the appointed time of life, or became permanently incapacitated, his pension and superannuation would be at the mercy of the new body, whereas a man who attained the age of 65 a day earlier could insist upon compensation. That was the intention and effect of the clause. He did not want to confer upon existing officers any greater right than they had at present, providing that no existing right was taken away. Let them look at what right was taken away. A number of these existing officers had served boards of guardians and grand juries and other bodies for a great many years. When the time came for them to ask for a pension, those bodies would know whether their case was a proper one or not. But these officers were to be transferred to the new bodies, who had no knowledge or experience of them, and within the next 12 months of the two years some of them would have reached the limit of age, or, from bodily infirmity, would be compelled to resign. The new bodies would know nothing about their past career; the men would approach them as complete strangers, and ask for their pensions. The effect the Amendment would have would be this: that in the case of all existing officers, who were now qualified under the law as it stood to receive a superannuation allowance, they should, if they 652 remained with the new bodies, be entitled to it unless they had misconducted themselves. That was the only purport of the Amendment. He would like to point out to honourable Members opposite, who thought and feared it would add a burden to the councils, that it would have no such effect. He did not propose to include in it a single officer who was not at present qualified to receive a pension. Ninety per cent, of those officers in all probability would get their pensions hereafter when the time came, but there were occasional eases where, from caprice or from some other motive, the county council or district council might say, "We admit you are qualified to receive the allowance under the law, we admit you are physically unfit, but we do not care to saddle the ratepayers with such a burden." The sole object of the Amendment was that, when the time came for the qualification for superannuation allowance, the man might go to the new bodies and ask his allowance, which the new bodies should be compelled to give.

§ MR. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.)
feared that the superannuation allowances proposed by the honourable Gentleman who had spoken would add enormously to the burden of the ratepayers. The Bill was saturated with superannuation, and permeated through and through, with superannuation clauses. They who represented the small farmers of the country dreaded that intolerable burden, and they thought, further, that when everything was taken into consideration the small farmer would derive very little advantage from the Bill, while the landlords would derive enormous advantages. They believed that with these superannuation allowances, and the increased expenditure which must necessarily follow, the tenants would not be relieved in any particular by the Hill, and that, probably, in a year or two, the tenants of the country would stand, as far as taxes were concerned, in the same position as they did to-day. They strenuously opposed the continuous repetition of these clauses for superannuation in Ireland. It was a most monstrous thing, this superannuation of all those parties—boundary constables, deputy-boundary superintendents, 653 and so on; it was simply intolerable. In the name of the small farmers he pro bested against this heaping up of superannuation allowances, not one penny of which would be received by the small farmers.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
could not accept the Amendment. He said that in almost every case the superannuation allowance was optional; but what the honourable and learned Gentleman sought to do was to compulsorily secure to every existing officer transferred to the county or district council the superannuation allowance to which, when, he reached the proper age, he might become entitled if the authority under which he served was pleased to award it. In this clause the Government had gone even beyond the precedents set in the English and Scottish Acts for securing the rights of existing officers. What the honourable and learned Gentleman desired, however, was that in the case, say, of a county surveyor who had served only a single year on the appointed day, and continued to serve in that capacity for 30 or 40 years afterwards, he should at the end of that period be entitled to compulsory superannuation. That was asking more than it was possible for the Government to do, and more than it was reasonable to expect them to do.

§ MR. SMITH BARRY (Hunts, Huntingdon)
said it seemed to him that his honourable and learned Friend had made out a very good case for the Amendment. It was said that the Bill was saturated with superannuation clauses. So it ought to be, because the Committee knew perfectly well that those Gentlemen who had served grand juries and existing bodies for a number of years were going to be handed over now to new masters, and to entirely different work very likely. The old bodies knew whether they worked well or not, and they judged whether they were entitled to superannuation or not; but the new bodies could not judge sat all. It was only fair justice that they should be safe-guarded in the manner proposed.

MR. FLTNN
suggested that the landlords of Ireland who got some of the agricultural grant should put the money 654 aside so as to provide superannuation allowances.

§ MR. PLUNKETT (Dublin County, S.)
did not think the Government was proposing any new burdens. Superannuation was practically given in nearly all cases under the present state of things, and he thought that the cases suggested by his right honourable Friend beside him ought to be protected. There was no distrust of the new bodies, or any suggestion that they were not likely to be as friendly to the officers as the existing bodies.