CLAUSE 39. (Hansard, 17 May 1898)

§ MR. DILLON
I should like to ask what is the exact object of this Amendment. Is it to extend the principle of throwing the burden of all rates upon the occupier? Is it a further extension of clause 37?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
The object of the first Amendment which stands in my name is to substitute any council in a borough or town for "urban district council." "Urban district council" is not sufficiently wide, because there are a number of other bodies which it is desired to include. I cannot see that there is any extension of the principle of clause 37.

§ MR. MAURICE HEALY
Is the right honourable Gentleman satisfied that "urban district council" will cover all the cases he wishes to meet? Would it cover the intended authority in the case of small towns?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
"Council" will, I think, cover every body that is contemplated. If necessary, we will make it clear in the definition clause.

§ MR. FLYNN
What about the district councils?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
"The council of any borough" would, I think, include a district council.

§ MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL
I confess that I think this requires a little more explanation. I fail to understand why "urban district council" should be changed into "the council of any borough or town." No light is thrown on it even by the interpretation clause. As this clause stands— Where an urban district council independently of this Act (a) can make any rate in respect of any hereditament upon the landlord or immediate lessor, and not on the occupier of the hereditament, such rate shall be made on the occupier of the hereditament, except it is a house let in separate apartments or lodgings. That is the first branch; then there is this, which is still more abstruse— (b) Can raise a sum by a rate upon the same basis as the poor rate, that sum may be raised by means of the poor rate, but as a separate item thereof, and the provisions of this Act with reference to the deduction of any part of the poor rate for rent, or to the fixing of fair rents, shall not apply as respects that item. 1660 Now, why narrow the district council to the council of a borough or town? When we come to the definition in clause 67, it says— The expression 'borough' means a municipal borough having a town council. And again— The expression 'town' means the area comprised in any town or township having Commissioners under the Lighting of Towns (Ireland) Act, 1828, or the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854. Either of these may be as large as an urban district council. I should really like to know what is the object of the change suggested by this Amendment.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
The right honourable and learned Gentleman is in error in supposing that the Amendment would narrow the clause; on the contrary, it will extend it. "The council of any borough or town" includes all councils established under this Act, and also, under the definition clause, it will include town commissioners. That is the object of the Amendment.

§ MR. DILLON
Before the next Amendment is taken I want to move to omit sub-section (a). I only move that in order that I may be in order in asking the Chief Secretary for some few words of explanation as to the effect of this subsection. The words are— Where the council of any borough or town independently of this Act can make any rate in respect of any hereditament upon the landlord or immediate lessor, and not on the occupier of the hereditament, such rate shall be made on the occupier of the hereditament, except where it is a house let in separate apartments or lodgings. I wish to ask to what rate that applies.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
This sub-section is perfectly plain. It says, "any rate."

§ MR. DILLON
But in regard to what rate is this necessary in addition to clause 37?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Clause: 37 only applies to poor rate.

§ MR. FLYNN
Are we to understand that if a rate is made in a town—say for the maintenance of some technical school, or some such object as that—that rate is to be put on the occupier, even although he may have contracted out of it under the terms of his lease?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
If any additional burden of that kind is thrown on the occupier, he will be entitled to have it deducted.

§ MR. DILLON
I do not pretend to be well versed as to the incidence of these particular rates, but it certainly seems to me that the effect of this clause will be to extend the principle of clause 37 to other rates. I trust that when the right honourable Gentleman is reconsidering the amended Bill as a whole he will bear this point in mind, so that, if necessary, the clause may be so altered as to put the matter beyond doubt. I shall not press the Amendment.

§ MR. MAURICE HEALY
The only observation I would make on this subsection is that it necessarily carries with it a similar alteration of the franchise in the small towns as we pointed out would result from the clause we were discussing the other night.