HC Deb 17 May 1898 vol 57 cc1653-8

Amendment proposed— Page 20, line 29, leave out from the second 'the,' to 'on,' in line 30, and insert 'fair rent for a holding shall be fixed under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts.'"—(Mr. M. Healy.)

Agreed to.


pointed out that by the words of the clause as amended, the amount to be paid under the agricultural grant in respect of poor rates was to be excluded from the consideration of the Land Commissioners, when they were fixing the rent. He proposed an Amendment extending to the Irish Land Commissioners, not merely the consideration of the rent for a holding, but the amount of the purchase money under the Land Purchase Act.


That is going outside the scope of the Act. The Amendment is not in order.

Amendment ruled out of order.

Amendment proposed— Page 20, line 37, at end, add 'and that any work giving increased value to the holding which has been made out of the poor rate or out of any loan on the security of the poor rate, after the passing of this Act, is an improvement made by the tenant.'"—(Mr. Knox.)


I think it is only just that, if the value of a holding is directly increased, as a consequence of an improvement made by the tenant that the value of that improvement should not be given to the landlord in assessing the value of the farm. I think this Amendment bears out the general intentions of the Bill, it is fair in principle, and one which, I hope the Government will see their way to accept.


pointed out that this was an Amendment of the Land Law, and was consequently outside the scope of the Bill.


I think it is most unjust that the whole cost of an improvement should be given to the landlord in fixing the rent. Take a case where a road is laid at considerable expense by a tenant. Supposing, as is often the case in Ireland, that the landlord is non-resident, and pays nothing to the cess. Under the law as it now is, it is true, the whole benefit of the improvement is given to the landlord; but it is also true that, when the next rents come to be fixed, the extra cess is deducted from the gross value of the holding before you bring one the fair rent. Therefore, the landlord gets the benefit, and the landlord indirectly pays part of the cost. For the future the landlord will not pay any part of the cost, and I hope when the landlord ceases to pay any part of the cost he will cease to get any part of the benefit. That, surely, is a just principle. As it is, the tenant pays part of the improvement and the landlord will get the benefit.


said that this would be an Amendment of the land law, which was outside the scope of the Bill.


said he opposed the Amendment on the ground that this was part of the price for the Local Government Bill.

Question put— That those words be there added.

Committee divided:—Ayea 89; Noes 175.—(Division List No. 106.)

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)
Allen, Wm. (Newc.-under-L.) Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Murnaghan, George
Bayley, Thos. (Derbyshire) Haldane Richard Burdon Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Billson, Alfred Hammond, John (Carlow) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Birrell, Augustine Harwood, George O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Blake, Edward Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Healy, Maurice (Cork) O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)
Brigg, John Healy, T. M. (Louth, N.) O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)
Broadhurst, Henry Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Burt, Thomas Holburn, J. G. O'Keeffe, Francis Arthur
Caldwell, James Holden, Sir Angus Paulton, James Mellor
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Horniman, Frederick John Price, Robert John
Carew, James Laurence Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Cawley, Frederick Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Clancy, John Joseph Jordan, Jeremiah Roche, Hon. J. (Kerry, E.)
Collery, Bernard Kilbride, Denis Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Colville, John Knox, Edmund F. Vesey Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.)
Commins, Andrew Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Crean, Eugene Leuty, Thomas Richmond Steadman, William Charles
Curran, Thos. B. (Donegal) Lough, Thomas Strachey, Edward
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Macaleese, Daniel Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Daly, James MacNeill, John G. Swift Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Dillon, John McCartan, Michael Tanner, Charles Kearns
Donelan, Captain A. McDermott, Patrick Tully, Jasper
Doogan, P. C. McEwan, William Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Doughty, George M'Ghee, Richard Wilson, John (Govan)
Duckworth, James M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)
Ellis, T. E. (Merionethshire) McLaren, Charles Benjamin TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Molloy, Bernard Charles Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr.
Fenwick, Charles Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Herbert Lewis.
Allhusen, Augustus H. E. Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.
Arnold, Alfred Compton, Lord Alwyne Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.
Ascroft, Robert Cook, Fred. L. (Lambeth) Hanson, Sir Reginald
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cooke, C. W. R. (Hereford) Haslett, Sir James Horner
Baden-Powell, Sir G. Smyth Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) Henderson, Alexander
Balcarres, Lord Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch.) Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)
Banbury, Frederick George Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts) Davenport, W. Bromley- Howell, William Tudor
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Denny, Colonel Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l) Dorington, Sir John Edward Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Bethell, Commander Drage, Geoffrey Johnston, William (Belfast)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)
Bigwood, James Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. Wm.
Bond, Edward Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Kimber, Henry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fisher, William Hayes King, Sir Henry Seymour
Brassey, Albert Fison, Frederick William Knowles, Lees
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Flower, Ernest Lafone, Alfred
Butcher, John George Forster, Henry William Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks.)
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) Garfit, William Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)
Carlile, William Walter Gedge, Sydney Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.
Cavendish, R. F. (Lancs., N.) Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Leigh-Bennett, Hy. Currie
Cecil, Lord Hugh Giles, Charles Tyrrell Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Goldsworthy, Major-General Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Loder, Gerald Walter E.
Clare, Octavius Leigh Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Coghill, Douglas Harry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Lorne, Marquess of
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Goulding, Edward Alfred Lucas-Shadwell, William
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gretton, John Macartney, W. G. E.
Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Maclure, Sir J. W.
McArthur, Chas. (Liverpool) Purvis, Robert Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
McCalmont, Col. J. (Ant'm, E.) Pym, C. Guy Tritton, Charles Ernest
McKillop, James Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Valentia, Viscount
Melville, Beresford Valentine Rentoul, James Alexander Wanklyn, James Leslie
Milton, Viscount Richards, Henry Charles Waring, Col. Thomas
Milward, Colonel Victor Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Warkworth, Lord
More, Robert Jasper Ridley, Rt. Hon. Six M. W. Warr, Augustus Frederick
Morrell, George Herbert Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Morrison, Walter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E.
Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Rutherford, John Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Mount, William George Saunderson, Col. Edw. James Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Muntz, Philip A. Savory, Sir Joseph Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Murdoch, Charles Townshend Seely, Charles Hilton Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Sharpe, William Edward T. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Murray, Col. W. (Bath) Simeon, Sir Barrington Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Myers, William Henry Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wilson, J. W. (Worc, N.,
Newdigate, Francis Alexander Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Nicol, Donald Ninian Spencer, Ernest Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
O'Neill, Hon. Robert T. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Young, Com. (Berks., E.)
Parkes, Ebenezer Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'T. Younger, William
Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Stranss, Arthur
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Sir William Walrond and
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Thornton, Percy M. Mr. Anstruther.
Pryce-Jones, Edward Tollemache, Henry James

I do not propose to take a Division against this clause, because the only objection I have to it is that the Act will be inoperative. I do not believe it will do any harm, but it cannot possibly do any good. It asserts a principle which cannot be strictly enforced. It declares that in future, whenever you fix a fair rent in Ireland you are not to take into account the amount of the Government grant on that particular holding, and that you are not to make any deduction in respect of it. I say that a declaration of that kind is perfectly futile, and will have no real effect upon the Commissioners. I ask you—what will the functions of the Commissioners be? What are their functions at the present time? They have got to ascertain what the lettable value of a farm is to a tenant. Well, now, when you are fixing a fair rentable value you must take into account the permanent charges upon the land, whether private or public. Let us assume for a moment that a farm is subject to a perpetual rent charge of £10. Whenever you let that farm to a tenant, if he has to bear the burden of the £10, it must be taken into account that that sum will have to be deducted in order to arrive at a fair lettable value. The same principle would apply in the case of the poor rate. If your £10 poor rate should be reduced to £5, whether you insert a provision in an Act of Parliament or not, it must necessarily be taken into account, and I therefore say the clause will be perfectly inoperative, I will put it in another way. Suppose you have to ascertain the value of this farm for purchase purposes under the Land Purchase Acts? If you assume a charge upon the land of £5, £10, or £100, necessarily the purchase value will go up, and the clause must necessarily be inoperative. As a matter of fact, the tenants at present pay a certain amount of county cess, and part of that cess will be reduced for this grant.

Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.

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