§
Amendment proposed—
Page 20, line 29, leave out from the second 'the,' to 'on,' in line 30, and insert 'fair rent for a holding shall be fixed under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts.'"—(Mr. M. Healy.)
§ Agreed to.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEpointed out that by the words of the clause as amended, the amount to be paid under the agricultural grant in respect of poor rates was to be excluded from the consideration of the Land Commissioners, when they were fixing the rent. He proposed an Amendment extending to the Irish Land Commissioners, not merely the consideration of the rent for a holding, but the amount of the purchase money under the Land Purchase Act.
THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANSThat is going outside the scope of the Act. The Amendment is not in order.
§ Amendment ruled out of order.
§
Amendment proposed—
Page 20, line 37, at end, add 'and that any work giving increased value to the holding which has been made out of the poor rate or out of any loan on the security of the poor rate, after the passing of this Act, is an improvement made by the tenant.'"—(Mr. Knox.)
§ MR. KNOXI think it is only just that, if the value of a holding is directly increased, as a consequence of an improvement made by the tenant that the value of that improvement should not be given to the landlord in assessing the value of the farm. I think this Amendment bears out the general intentions of the Bill, 1654 it is fair in principle, and one which, I hope the Government will see their way to accept.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURpointed out that this was an Amendment of the Land Law, and was consequently outside the scope of the Bill.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI think it is most unjust that the whole cost of an improvement should be given to the landlord in fixing the rent. Take a case where a road is laid at considerable expense by a tenant. Supposing, as is often the case in Ireland, that the landlord is non-resident, and pays nothing to the cess. Under the law as it now is, it is true, the whole benefit of the improvement is given to the landlord; but it is also true that, when the next rents come to be fixed, the extra cess is deducted from the gross value of the holding before you bring one the fair rent. Therefore, the landlord gets the benefit, and the landlord indirectly pays part of the cost. For the future the landlord will not pay any part of the cost, and I hope when the landlord ceases to pay any part of the cost he will cease to get any part of the benefit. That, surely, is a just principle. As it is, the tenant pays part of the improvement and the landlord will get the benefit.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid that this would be an Amendment of the land law, which was outside the scope of the Bill.
§ MR. DILLONsaid he opposed the Amendment on the ground that this was part of the price for the Local Government Bill.
§
Question put—
That those words be there added.
§ Committee divided:—Ayea 89; Noes 175.—(Division List No. 106.)
1657| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Flynn, James Christopher | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) |
| Allen, Wm. (Newc.-under-L.) | Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Murnaghan, George |
| Bayley, Thos. (Derbyshire) | Haldane Richard Burdon | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Billson, Alfred | Hammond, John (Carlow) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Birrell, Augustine | Harwood, George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Blake, Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Healy, Maurice (Cork) | O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) |
| Brigg, John | Healy, T. M. (Louth, N.) | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burt, Thomas | Holburn, J. G. | O'Keeffe, Francis Arthur |
| Caldwell, James | Holden, Sir Angus | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Horniman, Frederick John | Price, Robert John |
| Carew, James Laurence | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jordan, Jeremiah | Roche, Hon. J. (Kerry, E.) |
| Collery, Bernard | Kilbride, Denis | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Colville, John | Knox, Edmund F. Vesey | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.) |
| Commins, Andrew | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Crean, Eugene | Leuty, Thomas Richmond | Steadman, William Charles |
| Curran, Thos. B. (Donegal) | Lough, Thomas | Strachey, Edward |
| Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Macaleese, Daniel | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Daly, James | MacNeill, John G. Swift | Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.) |
| Dillon, John | McCartan, Michael | Tanner, Charles Kearns |
| Donelan, Captain A. | McDermott, Patrick | Tully, Jasper |
| Doogan, P. C. | McEwan, William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Doughty, George | M'Ghee, Richard | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Duckworth, James | M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim) | |
| Ellis, T. E. (Merionethshire) | McLaren, Charles Benjamin | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Molloy, Bernard Charles | Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) | Herbert Lewis. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allhusen, Augustus H. E. | Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. |
| Arnold, Alfred | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. |
| Ascroft, Robert | Cook, Fred. L. (Lambeth) | Hanson, Sir Reginald |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cooke, C. W. R. (Hereford) | Haslett, Sir James Horner |
| Baden-Powell, Sir G. Smyth | Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) | Henderson, Alexander |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch.) | Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) | Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh | Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) |
| Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts) | Davenport, W. Bromley- | Howell, William Tudor |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Denny, Colonel | Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l) | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse |
| Bethell, Commander | Drage, Geoffrey | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. | Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) |
| Bigwood, James | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. Wm. |
| Bond, Edward | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Kimber, Henry |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Fisher, William Hayes | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Brassey, Albert | Fison, Frederick William | Knowles, Lees |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Flower, Ernest | Lafone, Alfred |
| Butcher, John George | Forster, Henry William | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks.) |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) | Garfit, William | Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) |
| Carlile, William Walter | Gedge, Sydney | Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H. |
| Cavendish, R. F. (Lancs., N.) | Gibbons, J. Lloyd | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) | Leigh-Bennett, Hy. Currie |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a) |
| Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter E. |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) |
| Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. | Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Lorne, Marquess of |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lucas-Shadwell, William |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Gretton, John | Macartney, W. G. E. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles R. | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Maclure, Sir J. W. |
| McArthur, Chas. (Liverpool) | Purvis, Robert | Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray |
| McCalmont, Col. J. (Ant'm, E.) | Pym, C. Guy | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| McKillop, James | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Valentia, Viscount |
| Melville, Beresford Valentine | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Milton, Viscount | Richards, Henry Charles | Waring, Col. Thomas |
| Milward, Colonel Victor | Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) | Warkworth, Lord |
| More, Robert Jasper | Ridley, Rt. Hon. Six M. W. | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| Morrison, Walter | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Rutherford, John | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Mount, William George | Saunderson, Col. Edw. James | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Savory, Sir Joseph | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Murdoch, Charles Townshend | Seely, Charles Hilton | Williams, J. Powell (Birm.) |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Murray, Col. W. (Bath) | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Myers, William Henry | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Wilson, J. W. (Worc, N., |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Spencer, Ernest | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert T. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Young, Com. (Berks., E.) |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'T. | Younger, William |
| Phillpotts, Captain Arthur | Stranss, Arthur | |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Thornton, Percy M. | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Pryce-Jones, Edward | Tollemache, Henry James |
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI do not propose to take a Division against this clause, because the only objection I have to it is that the Act will be inoperative. I do not believe it will do any harm, but it cannot possibly do any good. It asserts a principle which cannot be strictly enforced. It declares that in future, whenever you fix a fair rent in Ireland you are not to take into account the amount of the Government grant on that particular holding, and that you are not to make any deduction in respect of it. I say that a declaration of that kind is perfectly futile, and will have no real effect upon the Commissioners. I ask you—what will the functions of the Commissioners be? What are their functions at the present time? They have got to ascertain what the lettable value of a farm is to a tenant. Well, now, when you are fixing a fair rentable value you must take into account the permanent charges upon the land, whether private or public. Let us assume for a moment that a farm is subject to a perpetual rent charge of £10. Whenever you let that farm to a tenant, if he has to bear the burden of the £10, it must be taken into account that that sum will have to be deducted in order to arrive at a fair lettable value. The same principle would apply in the case of the poor rate. If your £10 poor rate should be reduced to £5, whether 1658 you insert a provision in an Act of Parliament or not, it must necessarily be taken into account, and I therefore say the clause will be perfectly inoperative, I will put it in another way. Suppose you have to ascertain the value of this farm for purchase purposes under the Land Purchase Acts? If you assume a charge upon the land of £5, £10, or £100, necessarily the purchase value will go up, and the clause must necessarily be inoperative. As a matter of fact, the tenants at present pay a certain amount of county cess, and part of that cess will be reduced for this grant.
§ Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.