§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYBefore the Amendments to this clause are entered upon I have to say that I have, on command from the Queen, to signify to the House that He Majesty has been pleased to place at the disposal of Parliament, for the purpose of the Benefices (No. 2) Bill, He Majesty's interest in benefices in the patronage of the Crown and of the Duchy of Lancaster.
§ MR. LEWISOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask if shall be in order in moving the Amendment which stands in the name of my honourable Friend the Member for Denbighshire—
Page 5, line 34, after 'all.' to insert the words 'cathedral deaneries, canonries, archdeaconries, minor canonries.'The object of the Amendment is to apply to the higher dignitaries of the Church the same rules as the Bill applies to the holders of livings. Under clause 2 the bishop may refuse to institute if the presentee is unfit for the discharge of his duties by reason of physical or mental infirmity, pecuniary embarrassment, grave misconduct, evil life, and so forth, and the question I wish to ask the Attorney General is, why should not these rules also apply to the holders of the higher ecclesiastical offices—deans, canons, archdeacons, and minor canons? It may be said that this Bill applies to benefices in the ordinary sense, and to benefices only, but I would ask, is there any reason whatever why the grounds for refusing to institute a clergyman to a benefice should not also apply to the higher clerical positions? The act of the matter is that a great many of these appointments are made by the bishops and the Crown, and I ask the House to apply the same rules to them as to the minor clergy.
SIR R. WEBSTERsaid that a similar Amendment had already been considered by the Grand Committee. The circumstances surrounding the superior Church dignitaries were entirely different from those which surrounded the ordinary clergy. Many of them were appointed by the Crown, and there was no parish to consider. It would be very difficult at the present stage to insert the words proposed.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon, etc.)The reply which has been given by the learned Attorney General to my honourable Friend is a very extraordinary one. He says that circumstances are entirely different in respect to these superior Church dignitaries, that there is no parish to be considered, and that they were not appointed by patronage. Take the argument that there is no parish to be considered. Surely the influence of these functionaries is much wider than that of a mere parish priest, and consequently it is very much more important that the second clause of this Bill should be operative as far as they are concerned. The Attorney General says that a parish priest shall not be instituted if he suffers from mental or physical infirmity, or if he is guilty of grave misconduct, but that it is not material in the case of a prebendary or a dean.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe right honourable Gentleman says that there is no parish to be considered, but what does it matter whether it is a parish or a diocese? The spiritual interests of the people within the sphere of influence of these functionaries will be seriously affected if they are guilty of grave misconduct. What does it matter whether they are presented by a bishop or not? The Solicitor General in his Amendment proposes to include the benefices in the patronage of the Crown. If these are to be included, why should not positions like that of a dean or prebendary and other positions in the gift of the Crown be also included? I do not suppose that any of these dignitaries would be guilty 1268 of grave misconduct, because the Crown would not appoint such persons, but the interpretation placed on the words by the Attorney General would include excessive ritual and doctrine, and these high officials are the very worst offenders in this respect. Take the speech of Canon Knox Little, in which he defied the House of Commons and everybody.
§ MR. GEDGEI rise to order, Mr. Speaker. The whole scope of this Bill is to regulate the way in which a bishop may institute or admit to a benefice. Not one of the positions mentioned in the Amendment is a benefice, and to not one of them does a bishop admit or institute, except he is the patron.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI must say this Amendment does appear to me to be out of order. If these words were introduced into the Bill, it would leave them unworkable altogether, because the whole Bill deals with persons instituted only.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI fully see that, Mr. Speaker, and if these words are introduced it will be necessary to move a consequential Amendment.
§ * MR. SPEAKERIt is not in order to put down an Amendment of this description, which requires new machinery to carry it out, without giving the House at the same time an opportunity of seeing the clauses which contain the whole of the proposed scheme. I must call on the next Amendment.
§ SIR R. FINLAYmoved—
Page 5, line 38, after 'chapel,' insert 'and districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by virtue of statutory authority, and includes benefices in the patronage of the Crown, but does not extend to any of Her Majesty's Royal Chapels, or to any Royal peculiar, nor to any cathedral or capitular preferment, or dignity, nor to any chapel belonging to any college, school, hospital, inns of court, asylum, or public or charitable institution.'
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI move to omit the words, "nor to any cathedral or capitular preferment, or dignity," which I think will enable me to raise the point I was debating in another form, and also indicates the point which my honourable Friend proposed to come on 1269 the Amendment he put on the Paper. The learned Solicitor General evidently considers under the Bill as it stands that probably the word "benefices" might be construed to refer to these cathedral positions. I do not see why, if you are going to inhibit the institution of an ordinary parish priest because he is guilty of any of the offences mentioned in clause 2, you should protect deans, archdeacons, and canons. I move, Sir.
§ Question put.
§ SIR R. FINLAYIn the first place, the evils against which this Bill is directed have not been felt with reference to the cathedral and capitular appointments.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEOffences against ritual are being constantly committed.
§ SIR R. FINLAYThe honourable and learned Gentleman must be aware that the particular evils against which this Bill is directed have not occurred among the dignitaries mentioned, and if the Amendment were accepted the whole machinery of the Bill would be rendered impracticable. I think it would be very undesirable to leave out these words.
§ SIR R. FINLAYreplied in the negative.
§ * MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENAlthough there may not have been any gross cases in recent years in connection with these dignitaries, he would be a bold man who would say that deans, canons, or archdeacons have never been guilty not merely of ritualistic extravagances, but of graver offences, and he would be equally bold who would say that such offences will never occur again. It appears to mo, therefore, that 1270 the Solicitor General ought to accept this Amendment. I may say that it is within my own knowledge that one of the reasons why this Bill meets with hostility is that it is felt to be unfair to single out a portion of the clergy and to subject them alone to its operation.
§ VISCOUNT CRANBORNEIf the honourable Gentleman, at the beginning of the Report stage, had put down this Amendment, I should have been opposed to the alteration, but as the Amendment stands now it is absurd. I hope the honourable Gentleman will not persist.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)The noble Lord forgets that this Amendment is quite voluntary, and I am bound to say that I think the suggestion of the honourable Gentleman opposite a reasonable one. This Amendment is a very peculiar one. First of all, a "benefice" is to include benefices—
in the patronage of the Crown, but does not extend to any of Her Majesty's Royal chapels or to any Royal peculiar, nor to any cathedral or capitular preferment or dignity, nor to any chapel belonging to any college, school, hospital, inns of court, asylum, or public or charitable institution.Is it feared that a dean may come out badly, or that a minor canon may fall?
§ * MR. H. S. FOSTERI am bound to sympathise with the Amendment of the honourable Gentleman opposite, but I feel it would he very difficult to insert it at this stage of the Bill. I think it a very unfortunate thing that if the Government proposes to deal with the purification of the Church, they should deal with those least able to help themselves. But for the fact that I have moved so many Amendments already, I should certainly have put down an Amendment to the same effect as the honourable Gentleman.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 227; Noes 90.—(Division List No. 165.)
1273| AYES. | ||
| Allhusen, A. H. Eden | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Lowles, John |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Finch, George H. | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne | Lucas-Shadwell, William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fisher, William Hayes | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire) | FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose- | Macaleese, Daniel |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Flannery, Fortescue | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fletcher, Sir Henry | McArthur, C. (Liverpool) |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Flower, Ernest | Malcolm, Ian |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) | Folkestone, Viscount | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir A. B. | Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E. |
| Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith- (Hunts) | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Fry, Lewis | Milbank, Sir P. C. J. |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Galloway, William Johnson | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin | Garfit, William | Milton, Viscount |
| Beach, Rt Hon. Sir M. H. (Brist'l) | Gedge, Sydney | Monk, Charles James |
| Beach, W. W. B. (Hants) | Gibbons, J. Lloyd | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) | More, Robert Jasper |
| Bethell, Commander | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Biddulph, Michael | Gordon, Hon. J. Edward | Mount, William George |
| Bigwood, James | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E. | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Bill, Charles | Goschen, Rt Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Blundell, Col. Henry | Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) | Murray, C. J. (Coventry) |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray, Col. W. (Bath) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) | Myers, William Henry |
| Brookfield, A. Montagu | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Bucknill, Thomas Townsend | Gretton, John | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Greville, Captain | Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. |
| Butcher, John George | Gull, Sir Cameron | O'Brien, P. (Kilkenny) |
| Carvill, P. G. Hamilton | Gunter, Colonel | O'Connor, A. (Donegal) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs) | Hall, Sir Charles | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.) | Heaton, John Henniker | Pryce-Jones, Edward |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Helder, Augustus | Purvis, Robert |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. H. | Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Rankin, James |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. | Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hobhouse, Henry | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready | Holland, Hon. L. Raleigh | Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) |
| Colston, C. E. H. Athole | Howard, Joseph | Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Howell, William Tudor | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. |
| Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) | Howorth, Sir H. Hoyle | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. | Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- | Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chel'm) |
| Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H. | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Rutherford, John |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Johnson-Ferguson, J. E. | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Savory, Sir Joseph |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn. Sir U. | Seely, Charles Hilton |
| Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) | Kemp, George | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. | Sharpe, William E. T. |
| Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) | Kenrick, William | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Kenyon, James | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William | Sidebottom, W. (Derbysh.) |
| Denny, Colonel | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. | Knowles, Lees | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Donkin, Richard Sim | Lafone, Alfred | Spencer, Ernest |
| Dorington, Sir J. Edward | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir W. Hart | Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) | Strauss, Arthur |
| Edwards, Gen. Sir J. Bevan | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a) | Strutt, Hon. C. Hedley |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Sturt, Hon. H. Napier |
| Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward | Loder, G. W. Erskine | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'dUny.) |
| Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r) | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) | Thorburn, Walter |
| Thornton, Percy M. | Whiteley, G. (Stockport) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.) | Wyndham, George |
| Tritton, Charles Ernest | Williams, J. P. (Birm.) | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Valentia, Viscount | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Verney, Hon. R. Greville | Willox, Sir J. Archibald | Younger, William |
| Warr, Augustus Frederick | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | |
| Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worc'rsh., N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther |
| Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. | Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath) | |
| Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Healy, Maurice (Cork) | Priestley, Briggs (Forks) |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Holburn, J. G. | Randell, David |
| Bayley, T. (Derbyshire) | Holden, Sir Angus | Reid, Sir Robert T. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Horniman, Frederick John | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Billson, Alfred | Humphreys-Owen, A. C. | Roberts, John B. (Eifion) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Roche, Hon. J. (East Kerry) |
| Brigg, John | Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kearley, Hudson E. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Brunner, Sir John T. | Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kitson, Sir James | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Knox, E. F. Vesey | Spicer, Albert |
| Caldwell, James | Labouchere, Henry | Steadman, W. Charles |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Lambert, George | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) | Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Colville, John | Leng, Sir John | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lewis, John Herbert | Tully, Jasper |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Lough, Thomas | Wallace, R. (Edinburgh) |
| Dillon, John | Maddison, Fred. | Wallace, Robert (Perth) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Maden, John Henry | Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Duckworth, James | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Walton, J. (Barnsley) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Wayman, Thomas |
| Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Moss, Samuel | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil Wm. | Williams, John C. (Notts) |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Gourley, Sir E. Temperley | Paulton, James Mellor | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grey, Sir E. (Berwick) | Pease, J. A. (North'mberland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Philipps and Mr. Lloyd-George |
| Harwood, George | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- | Pirie, Duncan V. |
§
Amendment proposed—
As an Amendment to the Solicitor General's Amendment, to leave out the words 'nor to any chapel belonging to any college, school, hospital, inns of court, asylum, or other public or charitable institution.'"—(Mr. S. T. Evans.)
MR. EVANSI might recommend this Amendment on two grounds—first of all, because it is the first Amendment I have moved on this Bill, and the only Amendment which I propose to move on this Bill; and secondly, I might recommend it on the same ground as that taken by the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich. With regard to the last Amendment of my honourable Friend behind me, I did not take part in the discussion upon it, but I voted for that Amendment practically as an abstract 1274 Resolution, because it expressed my view. But here, Sir, these benefices attaching to colleges and schools, hospitals, inns of court, asylums, and public and charitable institutions are not at all on the same footing. There is no reason whatever, if you apply this Bill to benefices, as the word is ordinarily understood, why you should not apply the same provisions to those who are appointed to similar ecclesiastical offices by masters and chapters of colleges, and authorities of that nature. I think the machinery of the Bill would be quite applicable to appointments of this kind, and that the Bill ought to be extended to them.
§ SIR R. FINLAYopposed the Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived, without a Division.
§ Report concluded.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYI beg to give notice to fix the Third Reading stage for Tuesday.