HC Deb 23 March 1897 vol 47 cc1190-1
MR. MACNEILL

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been directed to the statements of the Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Justice O'Brien at Cork on Friday last, made from the Judicial Bench as Her Majesty's Commissioners of Assize, complaining of the absence of a military guard at their lodgings as a departure from constitutional usage; whether he is aware that the Sheriff of Cork made the usual requisition for a military escort on the 9th instant, and received a reply that the guard would be provided if the sheriff made arrangements for the accomodation of the men; whether that reply was given in consequence of a Treasury decision that the expense of providing a temporary guardhouse would not be admitted as a charge on the Civil or Military Vote; and whether, having regard to the fact that the Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Justice O'Brien have publicly challenged the legality of that said decision, the Treasury will adhere in future to the ancient usage of supplying the expenses of a military guard at the Judges' lodgings.

MR. HANBURY

My attention has not been drawn to the remarks referred to, and I am not aware of any legal requirement in the matter. There is no such usage in England and Scotland, where the duty is efficiently performed by the police, and occasionally by the javelin-men of the Sheriff. The requisition stated to have been made by the Sheriff of Cork, and the reply which he received, have not been communicated to the Treasury. The Treasury have expressed no opinion as to charging this expenditure on the Military Votes, but the costs of the Military guard clearly ought not to fall upon the Civil Votes.

MR. CARSON

May I ask whether the saving to the Treasury has been 14s. 6d.?

MR. HANBURY

It is not a Treasury question at all; it is a question for the War Office.

MR. MACNEILL

I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland (I) whether his attention has been called to the serious strictures of the Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Justice O'Brien, at the Cork Assizes, on Friday last, on the withholding, in consequence of a Treasury decision, of the Military guard at the Judges' lodgings, a proceeding which both the learned Judges characterised as illegal; (2) whether a Sheriff is entitled to the services of the Military in furtherance of his duties; (3) whether it was incumbent on the authorities to place at the Sheriff's disposal a Military guard for the lodgings of the Judges at Assizes when requested by him so to do; (4) whether he is aware of any previous departure from this practice; and (5) whether there is any and, if so, what remedy against the Treasury for this proceeding, which has been declared by both the learned Judges to be a flagrant violation of the law?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND

There is no official Report of the language used by the Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Justice O'Brien on the occasion referred to, but judging from the report contained in the local newspapers there appears to be no doubt that both the learned Judges decided, on the best consideration they could give to the point at assizes, that the Military Authorities were bound to furnish the guard required to the Judges, representing, as they held they did, Her Majesty under their Commission. This Question only appeared on the Paper this morning. It is rather an abstract one, and I am not in a position to express an opinion on the legal points put to me in the second, third, and firth paragraphs, even if it were proper I should do so after the decision referred to. In answer to the fourth paragraph, I am not aware of the practice ever hiving been previously departed from.

MR. MACNEILL

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has read unofficially the statements made from the Bench; and whether it is true that Mr. Justice O'Brien thence denounced the Treasury as a demon of parsimony?

MR. CARSON

Is it a fact, as stated in the papers, that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has said this is a matter which has arisen by reason of the action of the Treasury?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND

No; I do not think the Lord Lieutenant actually said this had arisen from Treasury action. I think he did state that the matter arose by the action of the authorities, by which, I presume, he meant the War Office and the Treasury combined.