AID GRANT OF 3s. PER CHILD TO VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS. (Hansard, 21 July 1897)

§ MR. BUCHANAN
no to leave out the words "For aiding," and to insert the words "To each." He desired to know whether the intention of the clause was to pay a grant of 3s. per head to each Voluntary School in Scotland for the number of children in average attendance in such school, or to make a general aid grant to Voluntary Schools, of which the total amount should he assessed on the number of scholars in the schools multiplied by 3s. The Amendment would make it perfectly clear that the intention of the clause was that each Voluntary School should only be paid an aid grant of 3s. per head on the whole number in average attendance. That was the object he had in view in this Amendment, and it was important that the Lord Advocate should make clear what the intention of the clause was, because there had arisen in the minds of many of them, certain doubts on the subject. He begged to move the Amendment. He desired, so far us he could, fully to understand the operation of the clause, and so far as it could be done, to eliminate from the clause those prejudicial elements its which were contained in the English Act.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he thought he could quiet the suspicions of the hon. Member as to the intentions of the Department, and show there was no necessity to accept the Amendment. There were no associations at present in Scotland, and certainly there was no intention in the Department to do any-thing but that of which the hon. Gentleman had expressed approval, to pay the grant calculated on the number of children in attendance to each school. Of course there was a certain amount of elasticity in the Code, as there always had been, but the elasticity was under the check and control of Parliament. The grants were to be expended in such 659 manner as was set forth in the Code, and assuming there were any conditions imposed to which objection was felt, the hon. Member or any of his friends would have the ordinary way of challenging the policy of the Education Department, and the House could control the action of the Department. Frankly and unhesitatingly he declared the clause was not intended to mask any contemplated change or to take other than the course which appeared to commend itself to he hon. Member. It must be admitted that it would not be desirable to stereotype the conditions, absolutely making them invariable and outside the power of Parliament to vary according to circumstances by means short of actual legislation. The hon. Gentleman could scarcely expect him to say that while the Government felt that in the English Act association would be a good thing, they held that in Scotland it would be such, a bad thing that under no circumstances should such a system be created. He knew of no movement in favour of association in Scotland, and it was quite certain that the Bill did not do as the English Act did, encourage the formation of associations; but at the same time he did not think it would be at all an advantage to have this matter stereotyped for all time. There was nothing so radically bad in the idea of association that it was an evil to be avoided, and he hoped the hon. Member would be content with the frank declaration that there was no intention of paying the money in other than the ordinary way. The hon. Member took a strong view of the evils of the system of association, and in the clause as it stood there was the check that Parliamentary control gave.

§ MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)
asked the Lord Advocate to make a little more plain what he meant by control of the Department which he said the House possessed. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the usual means of control over the conditions devised by the Education Department; but he did not explain how that control was to be exercised.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he meant the means surely familiar to the hon. Gentleman. The Code had to be laid on the Table, and it was always in the power of any Member to move an Address 660 praying Her Majesty to withhold assent to those portions of the Code to which objection was taken.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
desired to say that so far as the Lord Advocate was concerned he entirely accepted the assurance given; he might say the promise given, that no such proposal as he had referred to would be made, but as regarded the Department he could not say that the assurance satisfied him, or allayed his fear that such, a change might be introduced. Do what they would they could not disabuse their minds of the fact that there was the precedent of the English Act, and over and over again they had been told that this Scottish Act followed the English model. If the right hon. Gentleman would not accept these words, would he accept others of a. limiting character? He had pointed out that the provision in the clause was subject to the reservation of Parliamentary control, because the conditions would have to be inserted in the Code, and the Code had to be laid before Parliament; but the Lord Advocate knew as well as any one how far there was substantial Parliamentary control over the details of the Education Code. It was well known how exceedingly difficult it was to get any modification made by the action of the House in the Code or in any of the Minutes of the Education Department. At the present time a considerable majority of the Members from Scotland were on the Opposition side of the House, and supposing a proposal introduced into the Code by a Government having only as many Scotch votes as now, or even less, as had been the case in the past, the Government might and would carry the obnoxious provision in the Code, notwithstanding an overwhelming protest from Scotch Members. Parliamentary control was practically nugatory. The Code had to be laid before Parliament, not merely before the House of Commons, but also before the House of Lords; but what chance had the political opinions predominant in Scotland in the House of Lords? ["Hear, hear!"] What had been recent experience in a matter of this kind? You might have an Ordinance laid before Parliament and supported by a responsible Minister of the Crown on behalf of his Department, and then the Prime Minister might get up and upset the proposal and defeat his own col- 661 league. ["Hear, hear!"] The control offered by laying the Code before Parliament was absolutely nugatory. Under the Statute as it at present existed—the right hon. Gentleman would correct him if wrong—all grants paid from the Exchequer to Voluntary Schools had to be paid over to the managers of each school, and that Section 67 of the Act of 1872, unless any alteration were made by the present Bill, would still apply. Could not the Lord Advocate, if he would not accept these words, take one of the suggestions in subsequent Amendments that payment should be made directly to each Voluntary School in proportion to the number of scholars in average attendance in such school? He was perfectly certain that the expectation at the present moment, the fixed expectation of managers of Voluntary Schools in Scotland was in this direction, and if they found that owing to the vague words of the clause it would be possible for this or a future Government so to alter the distribution of the money under a clause of the Code that it might be banded over to an association or group of schools, there would be grievous disappointment and a sense of being grossly deceived.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR
thought this was a most extraordinary proposal for Scottish legislation. The words of the clause were practically taken from the English Act dealing with Voluntary Schools, though, as the Lord Advocate very truly said, there were no Voluntary School associations in Scotland. No; nor before the passing of the Act were there any such associations in England. He sincerely hoped they were not to look forward in Scotland to being involved in a struggle between diocesan and county authorities, such as was now going on in England. ["Hear, hear!"] Clearly, by the clause, the door was left open for the payment of the grant in lump sums to representative bodies. It was deliberately left open to the Department to adopt this method of payment, and everyone would see that it would be the simplest and easiest method for the Department. There was no question of necessitous schools. He would like to see the word "necessitous" put in. No obligation was imposed on the Department, and it stood to reason that the simplest method for the Department to adopt would be to 662 hand over lump sums to be distributed by each ecclesiastical body. The present fee grant was paid to the managers of each Voluntary School, and if such was the intention of the Government in reference to this grant, why not enact in the Bill that the grant should be distributed in that way? He hoped the point would not be left open, incurring the risk of sacrifice of educational efficiency by involving the country in disputes of this kind.

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen that if the Lord Advocate, with the views he had expressed a few minutes ago, were to be permanently an influential element in the management of the matter, then it might be left where he had left it. He confessed there was some strength in the argument his right hon. Friend used in favour of a little elasticity as between school and school—a certain amount of elasticity, a very moderate amount of elasticity appealed to one's sense of fitness. But, on the other hand, was there not something practically ridiculous in having a provision imported into the Bill from the English Act which contemplated another state of things altogether? As had been said, there were no associations in Scotland, and there was no provision in the Bill for setting up associations. They were not wanted in Scotland because Voluntary Schools were scattered and few in number, while in England they were all over the country. If associations were set up in Scotland the position would come to be that pointed out by his hon. Friend—that the money would be handed over straight to the governing bodies of separate religious communions, and they might treat it as an asset of the communion to be dealt with for educational purposes. The Lord Advocate endeavoured to console Scotch Members by pointing out that there would still be some Parliamentary control over the particular provisions of the Code by which this distribution would be made, but that was in no case a satisfactory arrangement. They all knew what an illusion such a control as that was. To begin with, any question of that sort came on in the small hours of the morning. There was noting more repulsive to a Member of Parliament than to have to sit up and take part in such discussions. But, after 663 all, the control that would be exercised in this manner would be exercised by English Members, and not by the Scotch Members alone. For all these reasons he thought his hon. Friend was quite justified in the apprehensions they entertained. He would urge most earnestly on the right hon. Gentleman that, with his great ingenuity, he might introduce some words which would prevent the state of things his hon. Friends wished to guard against, while maintaining that small guarantee of elasticity to which the right hon. Gentleman attached importance.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he had no cause to complain of the way in which hon. Gentlemen had received his declaration. He would remind the Committee that there was no such thing as an association in Scotland, and there was no desire expressed in favour of them; yet he was asked to say that if there ever was such a thing, it would be a bad body to pay this money to. He preferred to wait until there was any necessity to say that. Although his right hon. Friend opposite had pictured in harrowing terms the hardship of hon. Members in being kept out of their beds, and although it was true that when small matters of detail were being argued the House did not readily listen at Two o'clock in the, morning, still, if this great thing was going to be done, if this tremendous change in educational policy was to be made, then there would be a question of such magnitude before the House that he was quite sure that hon. Members would be in a position to ask the Leader of the House to give them a more favourable opportunity for discussing it. As regarded the little interlude in the House of Lords, he could not see that that had anything to do with the matter, because, after all, the House of Lords had not the power of forcing the Code down the throats of hon. Members. The House of Commons was not parting with all control. Hon. Members would be able to raise the question if the necessity arose, and accordingly he could not help thinking they would be perfectly safe in leaving the Bill as it stood.

§ DR. CLARK
contended that the Gov-eminent ought to make up their minds whether this money was to go to special schools or to associations. At present the Bill was so drawn that they had 664 neither one thing nor the other. They should have exact phraseology in an Act of Parliament. Why should the Government leave the matter open? If any of these little questions did come up on education, how did Scotch Members stand? They were opposed by the Episcopalians, and in all educational matters the Irish Roman Catholics would go hand in hand with the Episcopalians. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not see why the Scotch should be placed at the mercy of the Irish Roman Catholics and the English Episcopalians. He thought the matter ought to be determined here. ["Hear, hear!"]

§ MR. CALDWELL
said that this Amendment was in the interests of the Voluntary Schools of Scotland, and the Government had adopted the language of the English Bill. In the case of Scotland it was notorious that the method of distribution at present was to each school. There was no provision in the Code for giving money to a certain class of schools. What they wanted to make sure of was this—that the Scotch system was to be continued—namely, that each Voluntary School should have an absolute right to this 3s., and that it should not be possible for any Government to so regulate the money as to give more to one school and less to another. It was obvious that a clause which was intended to work in England in a collective way was not suitable to the Scotch system. Each Voluntary School ought to have an indefeasible right to the 3s.
Question put, "That the words 'For aiding' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: —Ayes, 155; Noes, 76.—(Division List, No. 319.)

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR
moved, after the word "aiding," to insert the word "necessitous." He moved the Amendment in the hope that they would be able to elicit what the policy of the Government was going to be as to the application of this money. As the Bill stood the money might be handed over to all schools. He thought it should be laid down that only schools necessitous from an educational point of view should be benefited.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said it would be quite improper to pay the grant to a school which was not rendering efficient service. Undoubtedly it was intended 665 that the grant should be paid to the whole of the Voluntary Schools, Voluntary Schools being defined as a State-aided school.

§ DR. CLARK
hoped his hon. Friend would not press the Amendment, because its adoption would result in money being taken from Scotland. Scotch Members ought to profit by the example set by the Irish Members, and try to get as much money as they could for their own country.

§ MR. J. H. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)
said he had a very vivid recollection of the hon. Member for Caithness strenuously opposing and throwing out a grant of public money in aid of his own constituency. [A laugh.] While they were anxious to get as much money as they could for Scotland, they were anxious that the money should be properly expended. The case for the Bill was that there was an urgent demand for increased support of Voluntary Schools. It seemed to him that the money granted ought to be distributed amongst the schools which really deserved it, but without this Amendment it might be given to flourishing and poor schools alike.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR
explained that under his Amendment Scotland would not get less money, but the money would be given to the schools which needed it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ MR. THOMAS SHAW
moved, after the word "paid," to insert the words "to the managers or governing, bodies thereof." He hoped that those recipients were not to be associations, because associations would undoubtedly be of a clerical and denominational character. It might be quite proper to have denominational associations working together for the common interests of the denominations, but to enable them to have a grip over the funds would be indefensible on financial grounds.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
opposed the Amendment, remarking that it was quite uncalled for, the principle having been decided by the last Amendment.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
hoped the Motion would be put from the Chair.

§ MR. CALDWELL
supported the Amendment, pointing out that. the 17s. 6d. limit did not exist in Scotland.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 75; Noes, 160. (Division List, No. 329.)

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR
moved, after the word "Parliament," to insert the words,— in such manner and amounts as the Scottish Education Department may think best for the purpose of increasing the efficiency of these schools, due regard being had to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions. He wanted to have some distinct indication in the Bill of the purpose to which this grant to the Voluntary Schools was to be applied. It was within the knowledge of the Committee that four-fifths of the cost of maintenance of these Voluntary Schools was borne by Parliamentary money and only one-fifth was left to be borne by the Voluntary Schools themselves. Surely it was not too much to ask, that in anything that might be done for the Voluntary Schools, there should be nothing, to weaken the local interest in the schools, as evidenced by the local subscriptions. Again, there should be in the Bill some indication that the money should he applied solely for increasing the efficiency of the schools. Anything that was done towards securing that the money would be spent in the interest of education in the Voluntary Schools would be an advantage to the country at large.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
did not think the Amendment was at all necessary. The Education Department might be trusted to see that the money was only used for increasing the efficiency of the schools. The words of the Amendment wire necessary in the case of the English Bill, because the position of the Voluntary Schools in England was different from the position occupied by the Voluntary Schools in Scotland.

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
said they hail been discussing this Bill with the English Act over them. They hail been told, "You cannot do this" or "You cannot do that, because we must follow the lines of the English Bill." 667 That was the answer they got to everything they proposed; and now, when his hon. Friend proposed words which were actually taken textually from the English Bill, and were every bit as applicable in Scotland as in England, the Lord Advocate said they were not at all necessary, and that there was sufficient control by the Department without them. If that were so, why were they put into the English Bill? There was a long discussion on the point, in the case of the English Bill, and it was agreed by those who had any real knowledge of the subject, that it was absolutely necessary to secure that the money given to the schools should go, not to the relief of subscription, but to increasing the efficiency of the schools; and that argument applied with equal force to Scotland.

MR. PARKER SMITH
hoped that the Amendment, would be accepted. Parliament should give an indication to the Department that it expected to get something, for its money.

§ SIR CHARLES CAMERON (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
supported the appeal. The Lord Advocate was asking that a blank cheque should be given to his Department; and that was not given to the English Department.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
said that the circumstances of the Voluntary Schools in England mid Scotland were quite different. In England the Voluntary Schools were the majority, and were mostly in the rural districts. In Scotland the Voluntary Schools were mostly attended by the children of the poor labouring class, in the congested districts. If the words referring to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions were accepted, it would mean that from time to time, when trade was bad, the supporters of these schools would be fined for their very poverty. The words would operate very prejudicially and unfairly on those who had made heroic efforts to maintain their schools.

§ MR. CALDWELL
hoped that the Amendment would be accepted. The Roman Catholic schools were very well managed, but the Episcopalian schools had the lowest cost of maintenance of any. Without this Amendment the grant would simply go in aid of subscriptions, instead of bringing the Episcopalian schools to a. higher state of efficiency. The Amendment was exactly in the 668 words of the English Act, which the Government had hitherto insisted on following. Let the Government give Scotland an English Bill or a Scotch Bill, but not a mixture of the two.

§ SIR JAMES FERGUSSON (Manchester, N.E.)
said that the argument of the hon. Member amounted to this—that the Roman Catholics were to be penalised to place an additional burden on the Episcopalians, who seemed an offence to the hon. Member's nostrils. [Mr. CALDWELL "Hear, hear!" and laughter.] The Amendment would not be applicable to Scotland.

§ MR. E. ROBERTSON
said that there ought to be no difference in the treatment of one set of voluntarists and another. These words, which were taken direct from the English Act, did not impose any special burden. They simply required that the grant should be devoted to increasing the efficiency of the schools, and that the voluntary character of the school should be maintained.

§ *MR. ROBINSON SOUTTAR (Dumfriesshire)
pointed out to the Lord Advocate that the words were not obligatory; they only gave the Deparment a cerain lead. Personally he was very glad that the Roman Catholics were to get a little money, but he believed the managers of those Voluntary Schools and the teachers in them would be exceedingly thankful if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment, for there was a certain dread that without it the money would just be wasted.

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)
could not help thinking that it would be better the words should not be inserted. The hon. Member had not had sufficient regard to the fact that the English Bill was not identical with the Scotch. The English Bill was founded on the principle of discrimination for the purpose of helping necessitous schools; but the words now proposed did not include the words which were in the English Act—that the distribution was to be for the purpose of helping necessitous schools. Of course, the Department would have regard to "the efficiency of these schools," and, as far as they could have regard to it, no doubt they would also look to "the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions." He could not think that in the Scotch Bill the words were necessary.

§ MR. LEONARD COURTNEY (Cornwall, Bodmin)
suggested that the Government should endeavour to bring forward some more substantial objection than the objection that the Amendment was not necessary. It was not a good fashion of conducting a Bill through the House to object to a proposal on no better ground than that. There was no enforced obligation in this provision to keep up the subscriptions to any fixed standard or even to maintain them as they were. All that was intended was, he admitted, the introduction merely of a moral maxim that due regard should be had to the maintenance of subscriptions. The moderating effect of the word "due" seemed to have been overlooked. The hon. Member for Donegal was unduly severe on the hon. Member for Partick, who avowed a desire to see ultimately only Board School teaching in Scotland. He shared the desire of his hon. Friend in regard to England, but that had never blinded him to the duty of doing full justice to Voluntary Schools in England. [Opposition cheers.] Until he could convert the sentiments of his fellow-men in England he must and would give to the Voluntary Schools all the rights to which they were entitled. The Roman Catholic Schools in Scotland, which formed by far the most important portion of the Voluntary Schools in that country, deserved the utmost consideration but it was desirable in Scotland, as in England, that they should have some maxim of this kind put in, if only to strengthen the Department in dealing with the schools, and also the teachers in seeing that they got from those persons who professed to be devoted—as they were most loyally devoted—to Voluntary Schools, that support which lay in the punctual payment of subscriptions for their maintenance. He hoped the Lord Advocate would yield to the invincible arguments arising, not only from the nature of the case, but from the precedent of the English Act.

VISCOUNT CRANBOENE
did not quite take the view of his right hon. Friend. He did not approve of all the details of the English Act, and in particular he objected to the extreme vagueness of the term "due regard." Of course, he admitted that certain regard ought to be had to voluntary subscriptions, but what the precise legal effect of "due regard" 670 was be never could make out; and he did not understand it now. By the Amendment everything would be left to the pure discretion of the Education Department, without any necessity whatever of its being subject to any code or regulation to be laid before this House. ["No!"] As he did not approve of the words in the English Act, so he objected to them in the Scotch Act.

§ MR. THOMAS SHAW
thought the noble Lord had misapprehended the purpose of the Amendment. What the Committee was considering was whether there should be something superadded to the vague and unsatisfactory control which Parliament would have over this matter as the Bill stood. Why should Parliament not be consistent? He hoped that the Government would yield to the widespread desire on the subject that Scotland should not be deprived of those advantages which had been conferred upon England by the English Act. It would seem, however, that the Government, instead of attempting to satisfy a universal demand in Scotland, had abandoned the principle of making the Scottish Act symmetrical with that of England, a policy for which no defence had been offered. The Scottish Members were therefore bound to protest against this departure.

MR J. A. CAMPBELL
believed that the Amendment would be welcome to the managers and teachers of Voluntary Schools. if the Lord Advocate had no stronger objection to offer to the Amendment than that the words were unnecessary, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would yield to the expression of opinion in the House and accept the Amendment.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
trusted that the Government would pay some heed to the practically unanimous expression of Scottish opinion on this point. This was an Amendment designed to make the Bill effective educationally. As the Bill now stood it would confer no benefit on education in Scotland whatever. There could be no doubt as to the purpose of the Amendment namely, that the money given to Voluntary Schools should be given for an increase of their efficiency.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he was anxious not to take too stiff an attitude on this matter, but there were real difficulties in accepting the Amendment as 671 it stood. It came in at an inconvenient place—["no, no!"]—and seemed to suggest methods of discrimination which were foreign to the real purposes of the Bill. If the hon. Member would agree not to press the Amendment he would consider the matter with. the Education authorities, and allow the subject to be raised again on Report, in order to see whether he could meet the views which had been expressed.

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplated putting in some, words on Report?

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said that he could not give an absolute pledge that he would put words in on Report; but he would consider whether he could not devise words which would satisfy the views of hon. Members.

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
said that the Scottish Members felt very strongly on this subject, and a Division had the good effect of driving the nail home, while marking the strong feeling entertained. If the House Divided he hoped that the Lord Advocate would still keep open that disposition and elastic frame of mind which he had indicated. [Laughter.]

MR. PARKER SMITH
urged that a Division should not be taken in view of what the Lord Advocate had promised.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 163. (Division List, No. 321.)

§ DR. CLARK
said there was one other particular in which this Bill differed from the English Bill. The latter gave 5s. for each scholar in a Voluntary School; this Bill gave only 3s. He had been trying to understand, on information obtained from the Government on previous stages of the Bill, the reason why only 3s. was granted; but he had failed, and he should now move to leave out the word "three," in the hope that the Lord Advocate would move to insert "five" instead, or give some decent and satisfactory reason why the 3s. should remain. Scotch educational finance was complicated, and he would try to make it clear to the Committee. He had watched it carefully from the beginning, and now this change was 672 being made he wanted to understand it to the end. When the Local Government Bill was passed, and they (the Scotch) got their probate and licence duties, they used the whole of the money for education. But in 1892 a change was made; when the English education grant was raised Scotland got an equivalent grant, and the Act was modified. Instead of using the whole of the probate duty for educational purposes, by that Act they took away £265,000 for higher education and local rates; but they got £265,000 that year—so they lost nothing by the Act of 1892—they gave away £265,000 for higher education, for the universities, and for local purposes, and they gained £265,000. Since they they had never had less than £265,000; they had always had more, and this year they were getting £310,000, so that they were practically £40,000 better off. Up till now they had been able to pay 12s. both to Board Schools and to Voluntary Schools. They had been able to pay it from their Probate Duty and from their equivalent grant, because the £265,000 they gave away was only a portion the residue remained; so that as far as that was concerned he hoped the Committee would see that the question of the 1265,000 did not affect them at all, because they had got from the first day till now much more. From 1889 till now they had been able to pay the 12s. But they were told that they would not be able to pay it in the future, and he wanted to know the reason why they would not be able to pay it in the future. The only other change that had been made was the change made last year, when, instead of getting eleven-eightieths of the English grant they got 10s. per head. Now, was this loss which would prevent them in the future paying 12s. per head both to Board Schools and to Voluntary Schools; was it due to the fact that they had changed from the eleven-eightieths to the 10s.? Because their position was exactly as it was in the beginning. They had got the Probate Duty, and they had got the equivalent grant. He took it that the growth of wealth in Scotland and in England and the produce of the Probate Duty was a constantly increasing factor; and he could not understand why, after having for a number of years been paying this 12s., they suddenly discovered that for 673 some reason or other they would be unable to pay it. He believed that the Scotch Office, or the Education Department, had made a deal with the Treasury. It. was possible—and when the reasons were given they would be able to see to what extent this bargain was favourable to them or against them—it was quite possible that it might be a. good thing for Scotland. If it was, he should be entirely in favour of it; but at the present time, knowing the acts of the Treasury in the past, he did not think the Treasury would consent to any good thing for Scotland, and he was, therefore, rather suspicious about it, and thought it was rather a good thing for the Treasury than a good thing for Scotland. Well, then, they had been able to pay the 12s. till now; and it was quite possible when they heard the facts of the ease, that they would be unable to pay in future, and then the Treasury would come and make it up. He wanted some promise irons the Department. Because all the factors, all the sources of income, were the same—they were not diminishing, but increasing sources; and he should be very glad to hear now sonic satisfactory reason why the Department, from their residue of the Probate Duty, and from their equivalent grant, would not be able to pay this 12s. in future. Then he would be able to understand the character of the bargain, if it had been made, between the Scotch Office or the Scotch Education Department and the Treasury. He begged to move to leave out the word "three" and substitute "two," in order to elicit some explanation.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he had explained this so often that he was afraid he should be wearying the House by going over it. again. He had heard the hon. Member's speech not once or twice, but several times. The hon. Member must really know how the facts stood. The Act of 1892, which gave the fee grants to Scotland, said that after 1892 there should be paid out of the moneys provided by Parliament an annual grant towards the relief of the payment of school fees in the State-aided schools of Scotland a sum of £265,000, or such other amount as Parliament might determine, having regard to the amount of the fee grant under the Elementary Education Act 1891—that was to say, the 674 English Act. Now, the hon. Member knew perfectly well—it had been explained again and again the view of the Treasury upon that for the future, that the same capitation grant should be paid to Scotland as to England, that was to say, a grant of 10s. per head. As a matter of fact, up to this time, 12s. per head had been available, because the original provision for free education, in Scotland was not made out of the fee grant, but out of the equivalent grant that Scotland got at the same time that England got her local taxation subvention. Calculations were made as to how far the money would go, and as a result the education authorities came to the conclusion that they would be able to pay the 12s. up to 1892, and they could, as a matter of fact, have paid more than that sum. Since that year—and the number of children had largely increased in the interval—they had been enabled to make up the 12s. out of their accumulated savings. But these savings had disappeared, and recognising that fact the education authorities had approached the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who promised that, as they had been conducting their system in Scotland on the scale of 12s., he would provide 2s. out of the Imperial Treasury, which, added to the direct Parliamentary grant of 10s., would make up the 12s. It seemed, therefore, only just that when they were relieving the Voluntary Schools, they should take, this contribution from the Exchequer of 2s. into account and make the grant 3s. instead of 5s.

§ DR. CLARK
was not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Member, but said that he did not propose to press his Amendment to a Division. It was not competent for him to move to increase the sum, and of course he did not want to reduce it.

§ MR. CALDWELL
suggested that before the Report stage a statement of accounts should be prepared, so that the whole transaction might be clearly understood.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR
proposed, after the word "Parliament," to insert:— Provided always that, as a condition of a school's receiving a share of the aid grant, the accounts of the receipts and expenditure of 675 the school shall be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Scottish Education Department as now applied under statute to School Board schools. He said that a School Board in Scotland was bound to appoint two of its members to be visitors of the schools which it managed. These visitors could enter the schools at any time and call for the registers, so that they might compare them with the actual number of pupils present. The obvious purpose of this was to check the registers upon which was calculated the average attendance which regulated the amount of the grant. The system of auditing was very minute and rigid, and the public purse was protected as it ought to be. In the case of State-aided Voluntary Schools there was an examination of vouchers and receipts. As a matter of fact the managers certified results. There was an inspection of accounts by the educational inspectors, but they were appointed for educational purposes, and not for their competency to examine accounts, and they had frequently reported that their duties lay with the education of the children and the efficiency of education, rather than the inspection of accounts. ["Hear, hear!"] Surely it went without saying that as the protection he asked for was given in the case of Board Schools, it was necessary that it should be given in the case of Voluntary Schools also, and it was with that object that he moved the Amendment. It was really in the interest of those schools that the Amendment should be carried. It did not propose to put them under any more stringent regulations than those under which the School Board system was carried on. It had been shown in these Debates that the treatment of Voluntary Schools in Scotland had been most generous, and they had thriven to a remarkable degree. He would therefore urge those who sympathised with them to help him to bring pressure to bear on the Government to accept this reasonable Amendment.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he was sorry that his hon. and gallant Friend should seek to press this Amendment, because the Government could not agree to it. A great deal of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman had said had been dealt with already in these Debates. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman thought 676 that the inspection of the accounts of Voluntary Schools was not sufficiently rigid, he was sure that the Department would listen to any recommendation that might be made to them, and if they refused to entertain them, there would be various ways left in which to bring Parliamentary pressure to bear upon them. But this Amendment proposed to subject Voluntary Schools to the regulation statutory audit. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members might say "Hear, hear," but at the same time they would observe that that was a very different thing from merely saying that what was done at present. was not sufficient. He could not agree to an Amendment which so altered the relations which at present existed between the managers of Voluntary Schools and the Department.

§ MR. A. D. PROVAND (Glasgow, Blackfriars)
was surprised that the Lord Advocate should refuse to assent to so reasonable an Amendment. They were now giving more money to Voluntary Schools because they did not get any aid from the rates, and it was now simply asked that as they were to get this additional public money, they should submit their accounts to a proper inspection, and that they should furnish an account of what they did with their money, in the sonic way as the School Boards did. Therefore he hoped that if the right hon. Gentleman would not admit the Amendment, his hon. and gallant Friend would go to a Division. ["Hear, hear!"]

§ MR. H. ASQUITH (Fife, E.)
could not help feeling very great regret that the Government should make no concession whatever on this point. The English Bill had made provision for this very case. In one of the sub-sections of the first clause it was provided, that the Education Department might require the accounts of Voluntary Schools to be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Department, and the Vice President of the Council, he thought on the floor of the House, said that so long as he had the administration of the English Act in his hands he would insist on the Department exercising their power in all cases. If it was to be the ease in England, why not in Scotland? ["Hear, hear!"] There were schools receiving four-fifths of their annual resources from public funds, and it was perfectly plain that if Parliament and the country were 677 to make it absolutely certain that the money was expended for the purpose for which it was intended, some inspection by the proper authority was necessary.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
repeated that the Amendment would render a statutory audit necessary. It seemed to him that the power to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite referred was already in the Bill. The English Bill provided, as the right hon. Gentleman had said, that the Education Department might require the accounts and receipts should be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Department, but that was not a statutory audit. What he was resisting in the Amendment was the necessity for making the audit a statutory audit.

§ MR. ASQUITH
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman, like the Vice President in the case of the English Act, would give the Committee an assurance that he would insist on an audit?

§ MR. J. H. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would make the same provision in regard to the audit as was made in the English Act?

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said, as only one member of the Council of Education, he could not give an absolute promise, but he was quite certain that the Scotch Education Department would make such regulation as in their view would assure a proper control and that the money was properly spent.

§ MR. HEDDERWICK (Wick Burghs)
thought the Lord Advocate was maintaining an unnecessary position, because Clause 2 provided that the money that was to be given to these Voluntary Schools should be distributed in such manner and according to such conditions as might be set forth. But there was absolutely nothing in the Bill as to the auditing of accounts, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would reconsider the question.

§ MR. PROVAND
said the right hon. Gentleman had admitted that he could not enforce the regulations made by the Education Department, but they had not asked him to do so. What they asked was that the Bill should require an annual audit.

§ MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)
said there was absolutely no provision in the Bill with regard 678 to an audit. The question was whether the House was to legislate on the question of an audit or depute it to a body whom the Government were not prepared themselves to be responsible for. He would like to know why there should be any distinction between a School Board and a Voluntary School in this matter, unless it was that they trusted the managers of Voluntary Schools and would not trust the representatives elected by the people on the School Boards. He thought there was just as much reason for an audit in the case of Voluntary managers as in the case of the representatives of the people on a School Board. If there was any falsification or mal-administration it would be discovered by means of an annual audit. It was true that an inspector came down to a Voluntary School, but he did riot enter into these accounts, he seldom or never looked at the vouchers or accounts, and he was not a true accountant. There was no reason why the words which were required should not be inserted.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
said he thought there was a good deal of misunderstanding about the matter. He had said that there certainly would be an audit, but that he could not bind himself to there being exactly the same regulation as was provided in the English Act. He thought that under the Bill as it stood they had exactly as much power, but he was perfectly willing to insert the words of the English Act. ["Hear, hear!"]

§ SIR H. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN
appealed to his hon. Friend to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
moved to insert at the end of the first paragraph of the Clause:— The Code may require as a condition of a school receiving a share of the aid grant that the accounts and receipts of the expenditure of the school may be annually audited in accordance with I Le regulations of the Department. Amendment agreed to.

§ MR. BUCHANAN
moved after the word "Parliament," to insert:— provided always that every grant payable under this section shall he paid direct to the managers of the school entitled to the same. 679 It was the unanimous desire of the Scotch Members that the 3s. grant should not go to diminish voluntary subscriptions, but to improve educational efficiency.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE
, in declining to accept the Amendment, said he failed to understand on what grounds he could be expected to accept it.

§ MR. J. W. CROMBIE
said they had agreed before that this Parliamentary grant was really going in lieu of rates to all intents and purposes. But they were now told by the Lord Advocate that that was not so. Now, however, the Lord Advocate said that it was to all intents and purposes to go in lieu of rates. If they were going to give this grant to Voluntary Schools they ought to see that the money went to increase the efficiency of the schools. As long as this Clause remained, the 3s. would simply go to relieve subscriptions.
Amendment negatived.
On the Question "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,"

§ MR. BUCHANAN
said this Clause, giving aid to Voluntary Schools, was a decidedly retrograde step in the educational legislation of Scotland. They had hitherto always maintained that their educational system was a national system suitable to the wants of Scotland and generally satisfactory to the people. It rested on a. national basis. In Scotland they had School Boards in every parish, and where religious communities desired to have special schools of their own in which their children might receive special religious instruction, they had full facilities to establish those schools and share on absolutely equal terms in all the Parliamentary grants that came from the Exchequer. The Act of 1872 established absolute statutory equality between Board and Voluntary Schools in sharing in the Parliamentary grant. That statutory equality had been hitherto observed in all the Parliamentary grants that had been given for public education in Scotland, and this was the first occasion on which a Parliamentary grant had been given in which that statutory equality was not observed. The only reason that had been given for this departure was that certain educational proposals had 680 been made for England, and that similar proposals ought to be made for Scotland. This was treating Scotland as the knuckle end of England with a vengeance. They had often not got the legislation they wanted, but they had not suffered in the past as they were apparently to suffer now, in getting education imposed upon them which they did not want and were strongly opposed to. He must enter his earnest protest against the proposal contained in the clause by which a sum of public money was given to denominational bodies, wholly irresponsible, under no conditions or restrictions whatever, and with no provision, direct or indirect, that in any degree whatsoever it should improve the education of the country. It would neither improve education, increase the number of children to be educated, nor improve the status of a single teacher. It was a step backward in their legislation, and a Measure which he was perfectly certain the vast majority of Scottish opinion was strongly opposed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.