§ (1.) For the purpose of the purchase of land by the Commissioners (who are hereby authorised to purchase and hold land and dispose thereof as in this Act provided) the Lands Clauses Acts shall be incorporated with this Act, except the provisions of those Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land 919 otherwise than by agreement; and the provisions of Sub-section four of Section three of the Allotments (Scotland) Act 1892 with respect to the settlement of disputed compensation for land shall apply, with the necessary modifications, as if the Commissioners were therein referred to.
§ (2)Any limited owner may sell land to the Commissioners for the purposes of those Acts at such a price, or for such consideration, as, having regard to those purposes and to all the circumstances of the case, is the best that can be reasonably obtained.
§ (3)The Commissioners may, if they think fit, before disposing of land for the purposes of this Act, adapt the same by dividing and fencing it, making occupation roads, and executing any other works, such as works for the provision of drainage or water supply, which can, in the opinion of the Commissioners, be snore economically and efficiently executed for the land as a whole.
§ (4)The Commissioners may also, if they think fit, adapt the land for the purposes of this Act by erecting thereon such buildings, or making such adaptations of existing buildings, as, in their opinion, are required for the due occupation of the land, and cannot be made by the crofters or cottars or fishermen.
§ (5)Where any right of grazing or other similar right is attached to land acquired by the Commissioners for the purposes of this Act, the Commissioners may attach any share of the right to any holding in such manner and subject to such regulations as they think proper.
§
MR. CALDWELL moved, in Sub-section (1), to leave out from the word "agreement," to the end of the sub-section, and to insert:—
(2) If the Commissioners are satisfied that suitable land for the purposes of this Act cannot be acquired on reasonable terms by voluntary agreement, and that the circumstances are such as to make it proper that the Commissioners should proceed under this section. they shall publish, once at least, in each of two consecutive weeks in some newspaper circulating in the locality, an advertisement stating shortly the purpose for which the land is proposed to be taken, mentioning a place at which a plan of the proposed works (if any) may be seen at reasonable hours, and stating the quantity of land that is required. Thereafter they shall cause public inquiry to be made in the parish or district, and notice to be given both publicly in the parish or district, and severally to the owners, lessees, and occupiers of the land proposed to be taken either by delivery at, or by post in a registered letter addressed to the usual or last known place of abode of such owners, lessees, and occupiers, and all persons whose interests would be affected shall be permitted to attend at the inquiry, and to support or oppose the taking of the land.
(3) After the completion of the inquiry, and after considering all objections made by any persons whose interests would be affected, the Commissioners may make an order for putting
920
in force, with respect to the said land or any part thereof, the provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement.
(4) A copy of any Order made under this Section shall be served by the Commissioners in the manner in which and upon the person or persons upon whom notices in respect of such land are hereinbefore required to be served, together with a statement that the Order will become final and have the effect of an Act of Parliament unless within the period of one month after such service a memorial by some person whose interests would be affected is presented to the Local Government Board for Scotland (in this Act referred to as "the Board"), praying that the Order shall not become law without further inquiry.
(5) The Order shall be deposited with the Board, who shall inquire whether the provisions of this section have been in all respects complied with; and, if the Board are satisfied that this has been done, then, after the expiration of the said period of one month—
Provided always that the Board may, and when required within the said period of one month by any party interested who has presented a memorial against the Order shall, state a special case on the question whether the proposed Order is within the powers conferred by this Act for the opinion of either division of the Court of Session, who are hereby authorised finally to determine the same along with any question of expenses.(6)Where the Board are authorised or required to make any inquiry under this section, they may cause such inquiry to be made by any inspector or officer of the Board or by any other person specially nominated in writing by the Board, and such inspector or officer or person shall be entitled to summon witnesses and examine them on oath, and to call for the production of books, documents, and accounts. The costs incurred in relation to such inquiry, including the remuneration of any person specially nominated to hold the same, not exceeding three guineas a day, shall be paid by the Commissioners out of the sums by this Act placed at their disposal, and the Board may certify the amount of the costs incurred, and any sum so certified shall be a debt to the Board from the Commissioners.
(7) Any Order made under this section for the purpose of the purchase of land otherwise than by agreement, shall incorporate the
921
Lands Clauses Acts and section six and sections seventy to seventy-eight (both inclusive) of the Railways Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1845, with the necessary adaptations. Provided that—
(8.) At any inquiry or arbitration under this section the person or persons holding the inquiry or arbitration shall hear any authorities or parties whose interests would be affected, by themselves or their agents, and may hear witnesses, but shall not, except with consent the Board, hear counsel or expert witness.
(9) A person holding a piddle inquiry for the purposes of this section on behalf of the Commissioners shall have the cone powers and may receive remuneration not exceeding that payable to, a person specially nominated by the Board to hold such all inquiry under tin section.
(10.) The Commissioners or Board, as the ease may be, shall not, make any order Sir purchasing the whole or any part of any park, garden, pleasure ground, or other land required for the amenity or convenience of any dwelling house, or any land the property of any railway company or canal company which is or may lie required for the purposes of that undertaking, or tiny land which in the opinion of the Commissioners or hoard is being field and may he required for the extension of a factory or public work.
(11) The Commissioners or Boatel, as the case may be, shall in making an order for purchasing land have regard to the extent of land held in the neighbourhood by any owner, and to the convenience, of other property belonging to the same owner, and shall, so far as is practicable, avoid taking an undue or inconvenient quantity of land from any one owner.
922
(12) Any land acquired under this section shall he vested in the Commissioners.
The hon. Member said that while £35,000 was to be given from public moneys for the improvement of congested districts, there was no power within the four corners of the Bill enabling the Commissioners to acquire land compulsorily. Without such power it would Le impossible to carry out the Bill satisfactorily object of the addition to the clause was to confer on the Commissioners in the congested districts Board power to acquire land compulsorily, just as power to acquire land compulsorily had been given to local authorities under the Parish Councils Act of 1894, and to the Board of Trade under the Light Railways Act. The Commissioners upon whom he proposed that these powers should lie conferred were official persons—the Secretary for Scotland, his Assistant Secretary, the Chairman of the Fisheries Board, and of the Local Government Board; the other two members to be nominated by the Secretary for Scotland—and they would be absolutely impartial and independent without local interests or prejudices, and surely if any body should have Compulsory powers of purchase, it was such a body as that. Compulsory powers had been given in the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act of 1892, the Parish councils Act of 1894, and the Light Railways Act of last year, and such powers were equally necessary in the present Bill. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the matter. The reason why such powers were given in the Light -Railways Act was because these railways were looked upon as necessary, lad, he would point out, the whole scope of this Bill was necessity. He hoped the Government would not stultify their Bill by refusing such an Amendment. He had no doubt that in 99 cases out of a hundred the landlord would give the land on reasonable terms, but they might have one or two cantankerous landlords as they haul now. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would approve of a policy of this hind, and that even if the Amendment was not accepted the matter would be carefully considered before the Report stage.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he could scarcely accept the Amendment. The 923 Bill was a tentative one. There was a great deal of land available in the Highlands, and they did not anticipate that so far as the actual letting of land was concerned there would be any difficulty, even although there were no compulsory powers in the Bill. He could not accept t he analogy of the other Acts which had been mentioned by the hon. Member. There were provisions for the compulsory taking of land in the Parish Councils Act and in the Light Railways Act, but in those cases the purpose was strictly local, and the land was taken for the purpose of an undertaking which ex hypothesi would benefit the locality to a certain extent. Of course, the position under this Bill was different. To take people from a congested district in one part of Scotland might, of course, benefit the locality from which they were taken, and might be necessary from an Imperial point of view as an act of policy, but it could not be said to be necessarily advantageous to the locality to which they were removed. To his mind that was the great distinction between this Measure and the Act s which had been named. They thought the scheme should be given a chance to work without compulsory powers, and then, if it was found to be really hampered by the want of such powers, it would always be possible to conic to Parliament and get them.
§ MR. HEDDERWICKregretted that the Lord Advocate should have taken up such a position. The object of the Bill was to relieve congestion, but the cause of that congestion was the want of land. The Deer Forest Commission showed that there were something like two million acres of land available. As the Government themselves were appointing this Commission, and the Chief Commissioner was to be the Secretary for Scotland, it scented to him that the Lord Advocate was unnecessarily apprehensive with regard to the powers which they desired.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs)agreed with the Lord Advocate that this Measure should be considered as tentative, and he was sure there was every desire on both sides to make it a success, but he could not but think that compulsory powers were necessary in order to make it a success. He was, however, in favour of full compensation. \He believed they might 924 entrust the local authorities with full powers, and if that might be done with local authorities how much more might it not be done with a strong Commission of the kind proposed to supervise the work. He did not think there was so great an area available for small holdings in the Highlands as was very often supposed, but there were certainly sonic cases where lands which were capable of supporting a population were lying idle, and in such cases certainly this compulsory power was essential. There were cases where at fishing stations they found land suitable for small crofts, and where the landlords would not give the land except under compulsory powers. It was in such exceptional cases that powers should be given to acquire land. If those powers were not given, lie was afraid there was a bad prospect of carrying to success those necessary reforms in the Highlands.
§ DR. CLARK (Caithness)looked upon the Bill as a fair and honest attempt to solve the congested districts question, but regretted the decision of the Government not to accept this Amendment. In the present temper of the Mathieson family, they would not be able to get the necessary land in the island of Lewis without compulsory powers. He hoped that Mr. Mathieson might change his mind, but he feared that compulsion would be found necessary. It might also be anticipated that compulsory powers would be necessary in the ease of Sir John Orde and Long Island. He believed nine-tenths of the landlords would associate with the authorities in giving the experiment a fair trial, and only a miserable minority of landlords would refuse to give land, and the compulsory powers were necessary to compel this minority to do their duty.
*MR. McLEODdid not think he would be doing his duty to his constituents unless he protested against the statement that no case had been made out for the compulsory acquisition of land in the Highlands. An unanswerable case had been made out for giving those powers; and he did not see why they should make any difficulty in the matter when there were so many safeguards which they could apply in giving the power to acquire. When the Crofters' Act was before the House, the same argument against compulsory 925 powers was used by the party who now sat on the Treasury Bench. It was said that there was no necessity for increasing the compulsory powers wider that Act, because the landlords, seeing the temper of the House, would give the laud willingly on reasonable terms. Experience had shown how groundless was that anticipation. The Crofters' Commission stated in a special 'Report that the reason more land had not been distributed among the people under the Act was that they could not get the landlords to move. The new landlord who had been installed in Lewis had already categorially declared that he had no land fur the people, and that he would give them no land. That was an illustration of the temper of the landlords of the I Highlands. He declared that so far as the chief provision of the Bill was concerned—the provision for distributing Inure land among the people—the Bill would practically be a dead letter when it became law.
§ CAPTAIN JOHN SINCLAIR (Forfar)still hoped the Government would accept the Amendment. They must remember that the working of the Act would be in the responsible lewd of the Secretary for Scotland. Surely he was an authority that could be trusted. Everyone desired to see the Bill a success, mid there was no doubt that compulsory powers to take land would greatly contribute to that end.
SIR LEONARD LIELL (Orkney and Shetland)regretted that the Lord Advocate had not accepted the substance of die Amendment. In the absence of compulsory powers, the price of the land which it was desirable to acquire would be raised exorbitantly.
§ Question put, "That the words 'and the provisions of,' stand part of the clause."—The Committee divided:—Ayes, 131; Noes, 35.—(Division List, No. 263.)
§ On the return of the CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, after the usual interval,
§ DR. CLARK moved in Sub-section (1) to leave out "Sub-section four, of Section three, of the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1892," and tit insert "Section twenty-live of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894." He pointed out 926 that they were adopting the procedure of the Allotments Act, 1892, instead that of the Local Government Act, 1894, and that they were only adopting one of the five sub-sections of that Act. Sub-section 2, it seemed to him, was just as Important for the purposes of this Bill as Sub-section 4. He would like to know wiry the Government were limiting themselves to this one subsection, and why they were not having the whole of the four sub-sections, and taking the whole machinery of the Allotments Act. His Amendment was to adopt the Local Government Act as against die Allotments Act; but if they adopted Sub-section 2, Sub-section 3, mid Sub-section 5 of the Allotments Act, Ilium they would have the complete machinery.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that this special Sub-section was picked out simply hi accordance with the policy they discussed on the last Amendment—whether or not they should have compulsory powers. Sub-Section 1 of Section 3 of the Allotments Act was already expressed in the same words in file beginning of Section 5 of this Bill. Subsection 2 was the sub-section which dealt kith compulsory purchase and not with voluntary purchase; Sub-section 4, which they did take, was appropriate to voluntary purchase, and the alteration it made upon the provisions of the Lands Clauses Act, 1845, which would otherwise be operative, wits that it gave, practically, single arbiter, instead of two arbiters, and provided a less expensive and easier tribunal. The reason they did not take the Act which was suggested by the hon. Member in his Amendment, was because that was a Code which was appropriate to compulsory purchase. They wear, going not upon compulsory purchase, but purchase by agreement.
§ DR. CLARKsaid he had been misled by the words that any question of compensation should he referred to a sole arbiter. Of course if they had, practically, optional powers, no question of compensation could arise. It seemed to him the phraseology they were adopting was based upon compulsion, and that was why lie asked the question as to Subsection 2. He did not see how the phraseology here could apply to idly willing buyer or willing seller.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that under the Lands Clauses Act an owner could agree to sell his land. It was purchased by agreement, although they did not agree upon a price. Compulsory taking was where they could take the land, whether the owner wished it to be taken or not. Purchase by agreement did not necessarily imply that they had settled upon a price. It was perfectly possible to say "I will allow you to take my land, but we have to fix a price yet, and it shall be fixed by an arbiter." He thought that was the origin of the words "disputed compensation" being included.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid the proviso here that the quest ion of disputed compensation should be referred to an arbiter to be appointed by the Secretary for Scotland, was very appropriate in an Act where there were compulsory powers. But they took out a section of the Act which was passed for compulsory powers, and then said that in a case where there was no compulsory powers whatever, but where a man was to be free to make any agreement he pleased, it should also apply. It occurred to him that this was quite unnecessary, because it really applied to a ease of compulsory purchase, but had no application to a Bill, which was restricted entirely to voluntary purchase. It seemed strange to put in an odd clause which had no relation to voluntary purchase.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEpointed out that Sub-section (2) allowed the limited owner to sell at such a price as having regard to the purposes of the Act could best be obtained. This went further than the Lands Clauses Act. The justification for the phraseology of the Bill in this respect was that it was the phraseology of the Lands Clauses Act.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid that under the Allotments Act the Secretary for Scotland appointed the sole arbiter. Under Section 25 of the 1894 Act it was more a Departmental matter. In this respect he thought it was much better to adopt the method of the 1894 Act. The other point of difference was that the Local Government Act excluded the 10 per cent., and he would ask the Lord Advocate whether he could amend the Bill in those two particulars.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he thought it was a small matter whether 928 the arbiter was appointed by the Secretary for Scotland or by the Local Government Board, of which the Secretary for Scotland was the President. As regarded the 10 per cent., he had always thought it was wrong to exclude it front the Parish Councils Act, and he had always voted against it. He could not, therefore, exclude it from the present Bill.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATE moved, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "those Acts," and to insert the word. "this Act."
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
MR. CALDWELL moved, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words, "the best that can be reasonably detained," and to insert the words,—
deemed reasonable, and may, with the sanction of the Board of Agriculture, given under this section, convey the land for that purpose either without payment of any purchase money or compensation, or at a price less than the real value, and may so convey it free of all incumbrances. Provided that if the land proposed to be conveyed is subject to incumbrances, the Board of Agriculture before giving their sanction under this section, shall cause notice to be given to the incumbrancers, and shall consider the objections, if any, raised by them.
He thought the Lord Advocate would readily admit that "deemed reasonable" was preferable to "that can be reasonably obtained." The other words of the Amendment were taken from the Light Railways Act. Powers were being given whereby piers, boat slips, and harbours might be erected in certain parts. It was obvious that those works would benefit the owner of the land, and therefore he thought provision should be made whereby the owner should, if he chose, give the land. The same remark applied to footbridges and public roads. He had introduced the word "incumbrances." An estate might be burdened, and the creditors might be scattered over the country. It might be difficult to get their assent, and, indeed, inexpedient to go to the expense of getting it. He was
929
sure the Lord Advocate would admit that to cover a case of that kind there should be a proviso under which land might he given free of incumbrances.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid lie was quite ready to accept the words "deemed reasonable" in lieu of the words "that can be reasonably obtained." He could not, however, accept the rest of the Amendment, though he was quite willing, to consider it before Report. The clause was borrowed from the bight Railways Act. The assumption of Parliament was that if a light railway were made it would benefit the estate through which it ran, and therefore it was reasonable that a proprietor or limited owner should be able, if he had the sanction of a Government Department, to give land fir the purpose of the railway. It was not quite the same here. There might be some eases where the point would apply, but there were others where obviously it would not. Again, it might be found to be a mistake to introduce the Board of Agriculture. ["Hear hear!"]
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. CALDWELLproposed, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words, "as can be reasonably obtained," in order to insert the words, "deemed reasonable."
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
MR. CALDWELL moved to insert, in Sub-section (2), after the words last added, the words,—
Any crofter in possession of a holding under the Crofters' Holding (Scotland) Act 1886, and Acts extending or amending same, may sell or transfer his right and interest in and to the same to the Commissioners for such consideration as may be mutually agreed upon, and the Commissioners may sell or transfer such right and interest to an occupier of a neighbouring holding held of the same landlord, or may sell or transfer said right and interest to any other person to be occupied as a separate holding, but subject in all cases to the same terms and conditions upon which the crofter held the same at the date of such sale or transfer, and to such further terms and conditions as the Commissioners may determine. Provided that no existing holding shall he increased by any sale or transfer under this section so that in the opinion of the Commissioners the rateable value will exceed twenty pounds.
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The whole object of the Bill was to remove congestion that might be found in certain districts. It was quite obvious that what the Commissioners had to do in order to remove congestion was, if possible, to sweep away many of the existing crofters, and sub-divide the land amongst those who remained, finding, possibly new land for those who left. Strangely enough the Bill made no provision for a case of that kind. A crofter might be quite willing to give up his holding to the Commissioners, but the Commissioners, unfortunately, would have no power to take his land, and by means of it increase the adjoining crofts, or put a new man upon the ground. But the landlord might say to the crofter, "if you leave you must renounce the holding." By the Amendment the landlord could in no way be prejudicially affected. The only thing that would happen would be that holdings would be increased, or one tenant substituted for another.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the Amendment had not been long on the Paper, and therefore he would like its consideration to be deferred until Report. There were certainly two sides to the question. It might be well to add to a holding, but on the other hand it must be remembered that the crofter legislation differed from the Irish legislation. They were not discussing Irish politics at that moment, and lie was not inclined to introduce that policy into Scotland. As to free sale, he should resent anything that would alter the tenure of a crofter's holding. The crofter retained his croft as long as he paid his rent. He was fully impressed as to the advantage of having some machinery, and he would consider the matter before the Report.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONcould not agree with the Lord Advocate. He thought that some such proposal as that submitted by his hon. Friend should be considered, and effect given to it.
§ DR. CLARKsaid the improvements were invested in the crofter by the Crofters' Act, and this clause permitted the acquisition and disposal of the land. H any change in this direction were made, he should like to go further than his hon. Friend proposed. There was an absolute right to compensation, as the Act vested these improvements in the 931 crofter, but he had no right to remain there longer than the Crofters Commission decided.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the hon. Member spoke under a wrong impression. Obviously the Commissioners could not be heirs-at-law. He had assured the hon. Member that he would consider the matter.
§ *MR. J. G. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)was most anxious that the crofter should not be turned out of his holding. His hon. Friend had lost sight of a large class, the cottars, who really caused the congestion.
§ MR. CALDWELLasked leave to withdraw the Amendment. He was quite satisfied with what had been said by the Lord Advocate.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. CALDWELL moved in Sub-section (4) to leave out the words, "and cannot be made by the crofters or cottars or fishermen."
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEthought the words had better be left in than taken out.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he wished to say, in addition to what he had said before, that he was afraid that if these words were taken out, these men would be always asking for buildings when, as a matter of fact, they might be able to put them up themselves.
§ DR. CLARKsaid that thought the buildings were erected by the crofter, the landowner usually found the wood; and he would suggest that the words in line 30 should be made to read, "of erecting or assisting in erecting." That would assimilate the new method to the old.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
MR. CALDWELL moved to add the following sub-section:—
(6) The Commissioners may accept any gifts of property, heritable or moveable, for any or all of the purposes for which money is provided by this Act, and apply them according to the directions of the donor, if consistent in their opinion with the purposes on which they apply the said money, and, subject to any such directions, may apply them in like manner as that money.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEI agree to this.
§ Amendment agreed to; Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 6,—